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Well, since society is filled with a bunch of asshat's that can dish it out but can never take it, I would say "yes, to a degree". Peyton Manning threw more INT's in his first 2 seasons than Geno did and I think he lost around the same amount of games. Never once heard Peyton Manning as the "turnover machine that is too stupid to play QB". I know....thats "different". 

 

And this level of buffoonery was occurring way before $600, but during his rookie season and it heightened the moment Geno flipped off a bunch of disrespectful fans that deserved what they had coming.  Suddenly every Jets fan was somehow appalled. 

 

If you dont have the resources to contribute to QB development, then dont draft a QB. Doesnt take a genius to know that. It also doesnt take a genius to know what bad play in a bad situation looks like as well. Geno Smith isnt the best, he may even end up being trash, but the dismissal of a young guy that's obviously more talented than the critics who criticize him based on emotions is a prime example of the asshattery society produces...then of course they turn around and defend it. 

 

My opinion though...and I'll stick with it. 

You're wasting your breath/time. Geno has been rejected by the fanbase. I personally wish that jet fans would just hope for best because I'd rather have any player doing better than getting worse... But that's not the way things are. Just let things play out and see where it goes. He's a cheap back up who knows the offense, he's probably not going anywhere. He'll have a shot to show his true colours - whatever those may be.

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Nope, nobody here likes Glennon at all

Those guys all suck. I'd rather die on a life raft named Geno and do it right next year - then waste any more fcking time with a-holes who are never going to lead a franchise. Get the hell out of he

Plus I hear he feels like he could take on the whole Empire himself.

23 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Peyton Manning threw more INT's in his first 2 seasons than Geno did and I think he lost around the same amount of games. Never once heard Peyton Manning as the "turnover machine that is too stupid to play QB". I know....thats "different". 

Are you seriously trying to make an equivalency argument between Peyton Manning and Geno Smith?  

Correlation does not imply causation.  You do realize that just because one started poorly and could improve, does not mean the other can or will, right?  Literally every single variable is different between the two situations.

Quote

asshattery

Asshatery is in the eyes of beholder.  While you may not think criticism of Geno and disdain about his future here is valid, many do.  You're white knighting of him carries no implicit superior insight of morallity my friend.

Quote

My opinion though...and I'll stick with it. 

You're welcome to, but I'm sure you realize how close minded this sounds (and you say it...alot).

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Are you seriously trying to make an equivalency argument between Peyton Manning and Geno Smith?  

Nope, im making an argument that even some the best (hindsight) were turnover machines in their first two seasons. 

being blind to that fact is in the eye of the beholder as well. 

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8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Latest report/leak said he's still looking for $18M/year (Osweiller/Bradford money per year), which is actually more than the original alleged demands of $16M/yr a month ago. 

They aren't even in the same ballpark. Sounds like one side is at around $9M and the other side $18M. If we give in to even close to that, we need a new GM.

I agree.  I like Fitz but 18 M is a joke.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room IMO is SF.  If they unload Kaep to Denver, I think they have 40+ M cap space, (haven't looked at Jason's site yet) and no QB.  If that is true I could see them offering a big 1 year contract, while whoever they draft matures.

If it starts going that way Macc has to move on

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2 minutes ago, flgreen said:

I agree.  I like Fitz but 18 M is a joke.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room IMO is SF.  If they unload Kaep to Denver, I think they have 40+ M cap space, (haven't looked at Jason's site yet) and no QB.  If that is true I could see them offering a big 1 year contract, while whoever they draft matures.

If it starts going that way Macc has to move on

It's not going to happen. 49ers are already pegged for a disastrous season. 49er fans will lose their sh*t if they pay a stop gap journeyman 18 million dollars! Imagine if the Jets had a roster like San Fran & we signed Fitz. They want to see young blood even if he gets murdered. 

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On 4/14/2016 at 2:39 PM, Smo0v3mik3 said:

How does everyone feel on nick foles, kase Keenum, Mike Glennon, or AJ mcarron, being our starting quarterback!?? And is there any chance of trading for them?

No, No,no and no. Why trade for a QB who has failed in their first and in a few cases second tries? These guys are mediocre talents and Jets should not waste time, money or draft picks on any of them. Foles failed in Philly and St Louis. Keenum is being replaced by the number one pick, Glennon was replaced last season by the number one pick in the draft and McCarron will not be made available by Cincinnati.

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15 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

No, No,no and no. Why trade for a QB who has failed in their first and in a few cases second tries? These guys are mediocre talents and Jets should not waste time, money or draft picks on any of them. Foles failed in Philly and St Louis. Keenum is being replaced by the number one pick, Glennon was replaced last season by the number one pick in the draft and McCarron will not be made available by Cincinnati.

McCarron wasn't all that bad for Cinci. He almost led them to that playoff win but Burfict ****ed it up.

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28 minutes ago, flgreen said:

I agree.  I like Fitz but 18 M is a joke.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room IMO is SF.  If they unload Kaep to Denver, I think they have 40+ M cap space, (haven't looked at Jason's site yet) and no QB.  If that is true I could see them offering a big 1 year contract, while whoever they draft matures.

If it starts going that way Macc has to move on

Clearly. I like him to return for one year at $7M. As much as I'm against it on paper, so long as it isn't a multi year guarantee, in all honest $7M and $9M is no difference, and we sadly piss away a multiple of that $2M spread annually whether I like to admit it or not.

My issues with bringing him back for too much, too long of a contract, and potentially just to bring back at all, is that I believe Bowles will hand him the job no questions asked. Not just for this year either, but for as long as he's out there not looking like a rookie Geno, which could/will be for the life of his contract, or until/unless he gets injured. He's just too comfortable with the "safe" veteran starter and - like one of his mentors, Parcells - is a slave to keeping "his" guys out there. 

Fans' reflexive desires to bench a rookie QB as a rule may prove counterproductive in this case with this roster. After 1-2 seasons much of this QB-friendly cast won't be the same, or won't be here period. Think what an advantage it would be for a young QB to have a decent enough pass blocking line (particularly after Breno's replacement is in there: maybe Qvale or a '16 rookie). But on top of that, 1-2 targets of Marshall + Decker alone means he won't often have to run through 3 downfield progressions as a rookie. But there's some other talent as well, if Smith/Amaro can show why they were 2nd rounders. Then there are 2 backs who, on passing plays, are both superior blockers and receivers.

I'm just saying if Fitz is out there for 1-2 years then this ridiculously favorable situation, rarely available to a young QB, will have been wasted, because even though Fitz's floor is higher, we're just not winning jack with him. The better contract he's given, the more likely he's the unquestioned starter whether we draft a QB in round 1 or not. 

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On April 14, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Smo0v3mik3 said:

How does everyone feel on nick foles, kase Keenum, Mike Glennon, or AJ mcarron, being our starting quarterback!?? And is there any chance of trading for them?

I still think Fitz is the preferred option, failing that I guess all those mentioned are possibilities along with Geno.

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57 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Clearly. I like him to return for one year at $7M. As much as I'm against it on paper, so long as it isn't a multi year guarantee, in all honest $7M and $9M is no difference, and we sadly piss away a multiple of that $2M spread annually whether I like to admit it or not.

My issues with bringing him back for too much, too long of a contract, and potentially just to bring back at all, is that I believe Bowles will hand him the job no questions asked. Not just for this year either, but for as long as he's out there not looking like a rookie Geno, which could/will be for the life of his contract, or until/unless he gets injured. He's just too comfortable with the "safe" veteran starter and - like one of his mentors, Parcells - is a slave to keeping "his" guys out there. 

Fans' reflexive desires to bench a rookie QB as a rule may prove counterproductive in this case with this roster. After 1-2 seasons much of this QB-friendly cast won't be the same, or won't be here period. Think what an advantage it would be for a young QB to have a decent enough pass blocking line (particularly after Breno's replacement is in there: maybe Qvale or a '16 rookie). But on top of that, 1-2 targets of Marshall + Decker alone means he won't often have to run through 3 downfield progressions as a rookie. But there's some other talent as well, if Smith/Amaro can show why they were 2nd rounders. Then there are 2 backs who, on passing plays, are both superior blockers and receivers.

I'm just saying if Fitz is out there for 1-2 years then this ridiculously favorable situation, rarely available to a young QB, will have been wasted, because even though Fitz's floor is higher, we're just not winning jack with him. The better contract he's given, the more likely he's the unquestioned starter whether we draft a QB in round 1 or not. 

Do we know this for sure? I assume you are using Cro as a comparison, but I don't know that is enough to say this definitively. If so, we have a bigger problem in Bowles than we do with Fitz, which I hope is not the case, and I hope he can grow into the position. I think there were positives and negatives, and hopefully over time the negatives go away.

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1 hour ago, Jetster said:

It's not going to happen. 49ers are already pegged for a disastrous season. 49er fans will lose their sh*t if they pay a stop gap journeyman 18 million dollars! Imagine if the Jets had a roster like San Fran & we signed Fitz. They want to see young blood even if he gets murdered. 

No reason in the world they can't sign Fitz as a bridge to a young QB.

Hope it's not going to happen, I'd like Fitz back till we see what Petty, or another young guy, is going to do.  

I've learned in the NFL to never make definitive statements.  Anything can happen.  Didn't think they were going to give Revis the kind of contract they gave him at his age. 

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21 hours ago, BowlesMovement said:

Do we know this for sure? I assume you are using Cro as a comparison, but I don't know that is enough to say this definitively. If so, we have a bigger problem in Bowles than we do with Fitz, which I hope is not the case, and I hope he can grow into the position. I think there were positives and negatives, and hopefully over time the negatives go away.

Since I don't have a crystal ball, and anything can change, no. But handing jobs to everyone and his stubbornness in refusing to change gameplans that aren't working...they all point to the same type of thing: "This is what I want to do, this is who I'm playing, and I'm not changing my mind unless someone gets injured and I have no choice."

Absolutely I've acknowledged in the past that all this could all just be 1st year head coaching jitters and just being unsure of himself. But I just don't think so because of how he spoke of things like that. Whether it was, "I don't have to worry about [Cromartie]" type comments, or "We didn't want to let them dictate what we wanted to do" after we kept running & throwing deep, which wasn't working, instead of sticking with the wide open intermediate/underneath passes, that were.

I gave Ryan the same benefit of the doubt: if he can do one thing (i.e. coach defense) then it's not a genetic thing to be able to only coach that side of the ball. He'll either grow as a coach or he won't, but people aren't born with a genetic ability to coach defense but not offense. Same with Bowles in this regard. It's not a genetic thing to refuse to change a player or a gameplan, or overrule his OC when he makes a stupid play call. Some of these things just come in time. Unless the reason for his stubbornness is an inability to think on the fly without a group of coaches meeting in a room at Florham Park. 

So far, it looks like he's got his guy - Fitzpatrick - and that's that, unless his preferred player gets injured or is otherwise unavailable (like Richardson, when he was suspended to start the season).

We'll see. Tell you what, if a rookie - or any other QB - beats out Fitz for the starting job, you can rub it in my face & it's in the Jets' best interest for me to be wrong. I think the best shot of seeing that he may be growing (which I want to see) is if Giacomini is on the roster and still loses the starting RT job, which should be easy to take away.

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7 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Nope, im making an argument that even some the best (hindsight) were turnover machines in their first two seasons. 

Ok.  My response is "so what?"

Manning is not Geno and Geno is not Manning.  What relevance does your "point" have then, if you're NOT in fact making a equivalence comparison of the two?

Everyone knows a very rare few QB's started as dosgcrap, and turned into Peyton Manning.  

Many MANY more started as dogcrap and ended as dogcrap and were dogcrap every moment in between.

I could point out that this one guy this one time had cancer then it went away.  That has no relevance to the millions of people who have cancer...and died from it.

You may as well defend Geno by saying "Well, Peyton Manning once wore a green shirt, and Geno wears a green shirt, so yeah, start Geno!"

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Ok.  My response is "so what?"

Manning is not Geno and Geno is not Manning.  What relevance does your "point" have then, if you're NOT in fact making a equivalence comparison of the two?

Everyone knows a very rare few QB's started as dosgcrap, and turned into Peyton Manning.  

Many MANY more started as dogcrap and ended as dogcrap and were dogcrap every moment in between.

I could point out that this one guy this one time had cancer then it went away.  That has no relevance to the millions of people who have cancer...and died from it.

You may as well defend Geno by saying "Well, Peyton Manning once wore a green shirt, and Geno wears a green shirt, so yeah, start Geno!"

I was interested yesterday to be honest. 

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7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Since I don't have a crystal ball, and anything can change, no. But handing jobs to everyone and his stubbornness in refusing to change gameplans that aren't working...they all point to the same type of thing: "This is what I want to do, this is who I'm playing, and I'm not changing my mind unless someone gets injured and I have no choice."

Absolutely I've acknowledged in the past that all this could all just be 1st year head coaching jitters and just being unsure of himself. But I just don't think so because of how he spoke of things like that. Whether it was, "I don't have to worry about [Cromartie]" type comments, or "We didn't want to let them dictate what we wanted to do" after we kept running & throwing deep, which wasn't working, instead of sticking with the wide open intermediate/underneath passes, that were.

I gave Ryan the same benefit of the doubt: if he can do one thing (i.e. coach defense) then it's not a genetic thing. He'll either grow as a coach or he won't, but people aren't born with a genetic ability to coach defense but not offense. Same with Bowles in this regard. It's not a genetic thing to refuse to change a player or a gameplan, or overrule his OC when he makes a stupid play call. Some of these things just come in time. Unless the reason for his stubbornness is an inability to think on the fly without a group of coaches meeting in a room at Florham Park. 

So far, it looks like he's got his guy and that's that, unless his preferred player gets injured or is otherwise unavailable (like Richardson, when he was suspended to start the season).

We'll see. Tell you what, if a rookie - or any other QB - beats out Fitz for the starting job, you can rub it in my face. I think the best shot of seeing that he may be growing (which I want to see) is if Giacomini is on the roster and still loses the starting RT job, which should be easy to take away.

All fair, the game plans and lack of adjusting was maddening at times for sure. 

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On April 15, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Villain The Foe said:

Well, since society is filled with a bunch of asshat's that can dish it out but can never take it, I would say "yes, to a degree". Peyton Manning threw more INT's in his first 2 seasons than Geno did and I think he lost around the same amount of games. Never once heard Peyton Manning as the "turnover machine that is too stupid to play QB". I know....thats "different". 

 

And this level of buffoonery was occurring way before $600, but during his rookie season and it heightened the moment Geno flipped off a bunch of disrespectful fans that deserved what they had coming.  Suddenly every Jets fan was somehow appalled. 

 

If you dont have the resources to contribute to QB development, then dont draft a QB. Doesnt take a genius to know that. It also doesnt take a genius to know what bad play in a bad situation looks like as well. Geno Smith isnt the best, he may even end up being trash, but the dismissal of a young guy that's obviously more talented than the critics who criticize him based on emotions is a prime example of the asshattery society produces...then of course they turn around and defend it. 

 

My opinion though...and I'll stick with it. 

I think this is one of your best points to date, and I think shows that you truly know football. Your right too, since Peyton had more TO's than Geno in his first tow years, Geno must be smart. Not sure why the rest of Jets fans outside of you, JoeWilly and two others, don't see how smart Genon really is. Sometimes the answer is right in front of our faces, and we refuse to see it. Thanks for helping us.

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3 minutes ago, BowlesMovement said:

I think this is one of your best points to date, and I think shows that you truly know football. Your right too, since Peyton had more TO's than Geno in his first tow years, Geno must be smart. Not sure why the rest of Jets fans outside of you, JoeWilly and two others, don't see how smart Genon really is. Sometimes the answer is right in front of our faces, and we refuse to see it. Thanks for helping us.

You're trying too hard. 

 

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What about a trade with the Titans. Mo for a 2nd rounder and Delaney Walker? Draft OLB first round use the 2 2nd rounders we'd get to draft Connor Cook and an OL? Also adding a solid tight end. Idk if they'd go for it but I'd take it

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9 hours ago, SR24 said:

What about a trade with the Titans. Mo for a 2nd rounder and Delaney Walker? Draft OLB first round use the 2 2nd rounders we'd get to draft Connor Cook and an OL? Also adding a solid tight end. Idk if they'd go for it but I'd take it

You want to trade for a 31 yr. old TE? One making $5m and who will be a FA next yr?

No thanks. Give me two 2nds for Mo and I'd be ok with that. Better than what NE got.

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20 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Since I don't have a crystal ball, and anything can change, no. But handing jobs to everyone and his stubbornness in refusing to change gameplans that aren't working...they all point to the same type of thing: "This is what I want to do, this is who I'm playing, and I'm not changing my mind unless someone gets injured and I have no choice."

Absolutely I've acknowledged in the past that all this could all just be 1st year head coaching jitters and just being unsure of himself. But I just don't think so because of how he spoke of things like that. Whether it was, "I don't have to worry about [Cromartie]" type comments, or "We didn't want to let them dictate what we wanted to do" after we kept running & throwing deep, which wasn't working, instead of sticking with the wide open intermediate/underneath passes, that were.

I gave Ryan the same benefit of the doubt: if he can do one thing (i.e. coach defense) then it's not a genetic thing to be able to only coach that side of the ball. He'll either grow as a coach or he won't, but people aren't born with a genetic ability to coach defense but not offense. Same with Bowles in this regard. It's not a genetic thing to refuse to change a player or a gameplan, or overrule his OC when he makes a stupid play call. Some of these things just come in time. Unless the reason for his stubbornness is an inability to think on the fly without a group of coaches meeting in a room at Florham Park. 

So far, it looks like he's got his guy and that's that, unless his preferred player gets injured or is otherwise unavailable (like Richardson, when he was suspended to start the season).

We'll see. Tell you what, if a rookie - or any other QB - beats out Fitz for the starting job, you can rub it in my face. I think the best shot of seeing that he may be growing (which I want to see) is if Giacomini is on the roster and still loses the starting RT job, which should be easy to take away.

He did replace Demario...eventually. He worked in Williams quite a bit, and gave Mauldin some quality reps. Not as often, nor quickly enough for my taste, but it could be a sign that he's learning on the job. Cro is gone so Mac either pulled rank, or Bowles reviewed the tape and acquiesced.   

I didn't like the way he handled the Q situation. That seemed very stubborn to me. He benched him, then never put him back on the field. I would have liked to see him motivated after the benching, then if he just didn't like him we may have been able to get something for him.

I don't know that he would overrule Chan on offense so opinions on that may be moot. He may have input in training camp, but once the season starts, I doubt he takes autonomy away. For example, do you really think Bowles had input on sitting Kerley, and starting Enunwa? 

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1 hour ago, NYs Stepchild said:

He did replace Demario...eventually. He worked in Williams quite a bit, and gave Mauldin some quality reps. Not as often, nor quickly enough for my taste, but it could be a sign that he's learning on the job. Cro is gone so Mac either pulled rank, or Bowles reviewed the tape and acquiesced.   

I didn't like the way he handled the Q situation. That seemed very stubborn to me. He benched him, then never put him back on the field. I would have liked to see him motivated after the benching, then if he just didn't like him we may have been able to get something for him.

I don't know that he would overrule Chan on offense so opinions on that may be moot. He may have input in training camp, but once the season starts, I doubt he takes autonomy away. For example, do you really think Bowles had input on sitting Kerley, and starting Enunwa? 

Not he didn't. What he eventually did some, well after half the season was over, is what coaches typically do all season long at positions like LB and CB in particular: sub guys in & out quite regularly as the situation & players' skill sets dictate, and also to keep fresh legs on the field.

Cromartie started every game unless he was too injured. He never lost his starting job until Maccagnan stepped in to release him in February. Yes, I do believe Maccagnan pulled rank, though I still have concerns Bowles is going to lobby Maccagnan hard to bring "his guy" back at a reduced price. The alternative idea is even worse, which is that Bowles more or less ignored Cro's game tape all season long, and I don't believe that for a second. He was the reason they brought in Cro. They were paying him $7M at Bowles's behest. Cro was his guy. He loves him. He couldn't bench him. Maccagnan took the decision away by dropping him and (at least so far) not making him an offer to return for millions less).

Same with Davis. Even if Henderson did eventually into some of his PT on passing downs after 2/3 of the season was over, Davis never lost his starting job all the way through the last game of the season. The way Davis ultimately, permanently, and officially lost his starting job? Maccagnan didn't re-sign him.

He really does seem to handle players like Parcells in that certain players seem all-good or all-bad in his eyes. They're either starters who can't lose their jobs, or they're on the bench until injuries force him to put his team goats out there. And of course Bowles had "input" in sitting Kerley. Any idea that Bowles would have wanted him out there, but got overruled by Gailey, is preposterous. If Bowles wants him on the field, he's on the field. You brought up another one with Q (though Richardson coming off suspension had a lot to do with it, and there really was no role for Q anymore if he's already using another DT out of position at OLB. Seriously, who needs 2? Bowles isn't a complete moron). 

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1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

@RutgersJetFan

lol dude, if Jetnation was a court room and the Mods were the judge, you'd be the guy in the other seat pointing your fingers...lying.

man-pointing-finger-in-court.jpg

 

I've never witnessed a hurt soul such as you bro. lol. 

 

No "blind notifications" needed. 

Not sure if this will make anyone else as happy as it made me, but this is a Shutterstock image entitled "Witness confidently pointing out someone in the courtroom."

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