Why isn't the NFL doing anything about the Pats violating the Salary Cap by paying Brady Under the Table?

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, AFCEastFan said:

Going with a Broncos fan site explanation of the issue and extensive use of the typographic arts does not really advance the ball on this discussion.  I can't say I blame you, though, because there is not much out there on this topic.  Below is the most balanced discussion of the topic I was able to find:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2vrv95/lets_talk_about_the_broncos_salary_cap/

As to Brady, you seem to have a lot more information about his company than I do.  For starters, how much equity does Brady have in the company and what is his annual take in profits? 

 

 

I'm going with what the reason was that they were fined and docked picks. If you want to claim, without basis, that they were paying Elway's and TD's salary off the books - like NE is and has been doing with Brady - then you can do so, but it is unconvincing. You are the one who brought up "Denver did it with Elway" just to fling mud against the wall, without bothering to find out what actually happened. Elway and TD were deferred their salaries. Well, in the mid-late 90s they weren't going to lend the team money for free any more than they'd open a 2 year CD for 0% interest, so they were paid back with interest added. That small amount - the interest on their deferred payment - is all that I can see that happened with Elway.  This is from the link you just posted:

• This set of violations, the league said, was related both to agreements between the team and "several" unidentified players to defer salary payments with interest and to a 1997 agreement between the club and a former player to not waive the player prior to a certain date. "Both types of agreements raised salary cap accounting issues," the league said.

Nothing the Broncos did created cap room like Brady mysteriously surrendering tens of millions of dollars below his market value for an all-time great QB in his prime. The cap room cleared were technicalities, in that Elway/TD were paid money that didn't come off the cap, but that money wasn't football salary. It's a technicality because the NFL viewed any money-exchange as player salary. In their view, salary + interest = new total salary.

When Brady is texting the Patriots' controller to pay an invoice to a company he has a financial interest in, I think that says enough. If Brady wants to release his tax returns to show he has drawn only a nominal amount of money, and holds only a nominal stake in the company, I'll then eat my words. But we all know it's not going to happen, just like we know players don't actually give up tens of millions of dollars in income in the final years of their careers.

[JustInFudge]

16 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

First of all, you should worry about your own team who hasn't sniffed the playoffs in 5 years.

 

[JustInFudge]

16 hours ago, JiF said:

The Broncos situation wasnt the same, at all.  Those were like deferred payments or something like that.  And they were punished for their violations.

This is directly circumventing the salary cap and nobody cares because its the Cheatriots and Brady.

 

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

What??? It's nowhere near the same situation. Interest, not salary, was paid "under the table" back then. Not to justify them doing it, but it's a huge difference in both the reason for doing it and the amounts.

The Broncos paid Elway (and T.Davis) interest on deferred salary payments so they could push actually writing the checks to a later time. All of the players' salaries still came off the cap. They were temporarily cash-poor when building their stadium, so they deferred actually paying the salary on time. When they did write the checks (presumably a year or two later), they tacked on interest for holding the player's money just like a bank does. It was a cash flow issue, not a scheme to circumvent the salary cap in the manner the Patriots/Brady are doing.

Effectively, the team was borrowing money from Elway and Davis and paying interest on the borrowed amount. They weren't extra salary payments for playing football. Still against the rules, because the league said the interest should have come off the cap, but it's a relative rounding error in comparison. Oh, and the Broncos got fined $1M (a bit more 15 years ago than $1M is today to an NFL team), and they were also docked a pair of 3rd round draft picks. 

Night and day difference between that and literally paying Brady's football salary off the salary cap, by paying him indirectly through a shell company. Also unlike the Patriots paying Brady off the salary cap, the Broncos didn't clear 1 penny of salary cap space so they could then sign other players. 

One could easily argue that borrowing money from the players, and paying them interest for doing so, was a business deal totally separate from payment for playing football. Just like Brady and the Patriots are claiming their money is for a separate business deal; except NE's "services received" in these business deals are bullsh*t and it transparently IS money for playing football, being paid off the team's salary cap.

Sometimes, people just have a way of explaining things better than you do.

lol

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

 

Sometimes, people just have a way of explaining things better than you do.

lol

You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to plus about 5239 other things.

[AFCEastFan]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm going with what the reason was that they were fined and docked picks. If you want to claim, without basis, that they were paying Elway's and TD's salary off the books - like NE is and has been doing with Brady - then you can do so, but it is unconvincing. You are the one who brought up "Denver did it with Elway" just to fling mud against the wall, without bothering to find out what actually happened. Elway and TD were deferred their salaries. Well, in the mid-late 90s they weren't going to lend the team money for free any more than they'd open a 2 year CD for 0% interest, so they were paid back with interest added. That small amount - the interest on their deferred payment - is all that I can see that happened with Elway.  This is from the link you just posted:

• This set of violations, the league said, was related both to agreements between the team and "several" unidentified players to defer salary payments with interest and to a 1997 agreement between the club and a former player to not waive the player prior to a certain date. "Both types of agreements raised salary cap accounting issues," the league said.

Nothing the Broncos did created cap room like Brady mysteriously surrendering tens of millions of dollars below his market value for an all-time great QB in his prime. The cap room cleared were technicalities, in that Elway/TD were paid money that didn't come off the cap, but that money wasn't football salary. It's a technicality because the NFL viewed any money-exchange as player salary. In their view, salary + interest = new total salary.

When Brady is texting the Patriots' controller to pay an invoice to a company he has a financial interest in, I think that says enough. If Brady wants to release his tax returns to show he has drawn only a nominal amount of money, and holds only a nominal stake in the company, I'll then eat my words. But we all know it's not going to happen, just like we know players don't actually give up tens of millions of dollars in income in the final years of their careers.

What is your basis for claiming that the Broncos kept the deferred portion of the salary (as opposed to just the interest) off the books? I'm not suggesting that you don't have a basis -- it's just that nothing you have cited so far provides that basis.  

The link I posted states that "Elway’s cap charges in the Super Bowl seasons were just $2.1 and $2.6 million respectively. By comparison Dan Marino, who would be the most logical comparison, had cap charges of $4.3 and $7.6 million. Troy Aikman’s cap charges were both over $5 million in those seasons."  So you can draw similar conclusions about Elway that you are drawing now about Brady. 

Of course, Brady will never release his tax returns.  Without seeing them, we will never know for sure what the exact economics of this arrangement are to Brady.   But the whole story sounds more to me like trying to get his quack friend as much business as possible than using the business to set up an income stream that would realistically offset his foregone NFL salary.  You are certainly free to believe the opposite. 

[Ex-Rex]

17 hours ago, The Crusher said:

How do you say that with a straight face? 

Because he is a typical trolling, arrogant to excess, Patriots fans. Is it any wonder why we hate them so much? Personally, I think Brady is one of the greatest of all time and the Pats organization is the envy of all. They have done what it takes to win, even if they have to cheat once in a while. That was Al Davis' philosophy. "If you ain't cheating you ain't trying" Fred Biletnickoff made a HOF career on putting stickum on every part of his body. He could catch the ball with no hands. Jets hatred of the Patriots is based largely on their trolling fan base.

[ghost_in_pads02]

"stop your blood-clot crying"-biggie smalls.

[Dcat]

19 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

First of all, you should worry about your own team who hasn't sniffed the playoffs in 5 years.

Hypocrite. Go defend your cheating team somewhere else.  Remember you are on a Jets board, genius.  We are worried about our own team.  And we will point out every time the Patriots tip the balance in favor of themselves by cheating, bending the rules or creating their very own loopholes.  What a corrupt mentality you and other Pats fans have.  The fact that you are not even embarrassed says a lot about your character.  

And the nasty posts you've been making over the past couple of days tells me that you are losing it.  Would be best for Max to euthanzie you here, or at least sedate you for a few months, with a long time-out.  You're obviously just being inflammatory because you either have a child's mentality or are just an angry prick.  Max and co. need to put you down.  At least until the season starts. 

[EM31]

This is nothing more that the Pats "gifting themselves" extra salary cap.  Not too tough to have a winning franchise when you have a higher effective salary cap than everyone else.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, AFCEastFan said:

What is your basis for claiming that the Broncos kept the deferred portion of the salary (as opposed to just the interest) off the books? I'm not suggesting that you don't have a basis -- it's just that nothing you have cited so far provides that basis.  

The link I posted states that "Elway’s cap charges in the Super Bowl seasons were just $2.1 and $2.6 million respectively. By comparison Dan Marino, who would be the most logical comparison, had cap charges of $4.3 and $7.6 million. Troy Aikman’s cap charges were both over $5 million in those seasons."  So you can draw similar conclusions about Elway that you are drawing now about Brady. 

Of course, Brady will never release his tax returns.  Without seeing them, we will never know for sure what the exact economics of this arrangement are to Brady.   But the whole story sounds more to me like trying to get his quack friend as much business as possible than using the business to set up an income stream that would realistically offset his foregone NFL salary.  You are certainly free to believe the opposite. 

Cap charges change from 1 year to the next, particularly when there are signing bonuses made. There is nothing in your article that suggests that, in delaying the payment itself, that the team didn't get charged on their salary cap. If they had, then this would have been a monumental scandal instead of a slap on the wrist. In reality, a team is most definitely allowed to defer payments as long as it's written in the contract that way. For example, I sign you to play for a team and guarantee $15M over the next 3 years.  $1M this year, $1M next year, and $13M the year after that. It's guaranteed, so you're getting it for certain. But you don't get it now.

It appears the Broncos had contracts that called for the lump payments earlier, but ran into cash flow problems, so they deferred those payments as though it was the arrangement I outlined above. Where they really got into "trouble" - got fined and were docked draft picks - is that they paid those players interest on that deferred money, and never applied that interest total to their salary cap.  But they didn't circumvent the cap really, and if they had then Tags wouldn't have let Bowlen make such a statement publicly at the time the punishment was handed down.

There's plenty out there on this, because it is a matter of public record. They don't have Google where you're from?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/28/sports/pro-football-nfl-owners-discuss-salary-cap-troubles.html

The N.F.L. became concerned about the Broncos' situation when it learned that Pat Bowlen, the Broncos' owner, had deferred almost $30 million in salary payments to Elway and Davis. 

Delaying payment allowed Bowlen to use the money for other needs. The league frowns upon such arrangements, fearing a franchise can get into deep, long-term debt. 

The issue was taken so seriously by Commissioner Paul Tagliabue that he conducted a hearing on the issue earlier this month. Tagliabue ordered Bowlen to pay most of the money immediately, and Bowlen wrote a check for $22 million, which the league then gave to Elway and Davis. 

Bowlen acknowledged the arrangement with Elway and Davis, but said, ''There was never a salary-cap violation.'' He said he believed that other teams were attempting to spread such rumors. Although the Broncos did not cheat the salary-cap rules, they apparently did violate league guidelines regarding the way players are paid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html
Harold Henderson, the chairman of the Management Council and the NFL's executive vice president of labor relations: "The investigation resulted in the discovery of undisclosed agreements between the club and Broncos players during the same period [1996-1998] pursuant to which various players agreed to defer certain compensation in exchange for a commitment to pay interest on the deferred amounts," Henderson said in the statement. "These agreements were plainly designed to help the club cope with seasonal cash flow problems exacerbated by the Broncos' need to fund front-end expenditures associated with development of the new stadium in Denver."

http://www.scout.com/nfl/broncos/story/1545895-debunking-of-the-broncos-cheating-scandal

From 1996-98, the NFL found that the Broncos had agreed to defer payments to quarterback John Elway and running back Terrell Davis. The total amount of the payments was $29 million. As part of the agreement, the Broncos would pay both players in deferred payments, with interest.

Broncos did circumvent the salary cap, but why did they do it? This answer is simple. Owner Pat Bowlen, and the team, were in the process of building a state of the art new stadium. The cost of this stadium was approximately $401 million, of which $100 million Pat Bowlen was responsible for. Denver's actions in circumventing the cap were a direct result of the stadium being built. In other words, no stadium would have meant no agreements, no deferred payments and no salary cap infractions.

In a written statement, Bowlen explained that the club gained no competitive advantage from the infractions."The non-disclosures brought to my attention by the National Football League took place in the mid-1990s," Bowlen said. "We cooperated with the NFL throughout their examination of the situation. While I regret that the circumstances took place, it is important to note that there was no competitive advantage gained by our organization, nor was there any involvement or responsibility by anyone who is currently with the Broncos in any capacity."

[AFCEastFan]

31 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Cap charges change from 1 year to the next, particularly when there are signing bonuses made. There is nothing in your article that suggests that, in delaying the payment itself, that the team didn't get charged on their salary cap. If they had, then this would have been a monumental scandal instead of a slap on the wrist. In reality, a team is most definitely allowed to defer payments as long as it's written in the contract that way. For example, I sign you to play for a team and guarantee $15M over the next 3 years.  $1M this year, $1M next year, and $13M the year after that. It's guaranteed, so you're getting it for certain. But you don't get it now.

It appears the Broncos had contracts that called for the lump payments earlier, but ran into cash flow problems, so they deferred those payments as though it was the arrangement I outlined above. Where they really got into "trouble" - got fined and were docked draft picks - is that they paid those players interest on that deferred money, and never applied that interest total to their salary cap.  But they didn't circumvent the cap really, and if they had then Tags wouldn't have let Bowlen make such a statement publicly at the time the punishment was handed down.

There's plenty out there on this, because it is a matter of public record. They don't have Google where you're from?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/28/sports/pro-football-nfl-owners-discuss-salary-cap-troubles.html

The N.F.L. became concerned about the Broncos' situation when it learned that Pat Bowlen, the Broncos' owner, had deferred almost $30 million in salary payments to Elway and Davis. 

Delaying payment allowed Bowlen to use the money for other needs. The league frowns upon such arrangements, fearing a franchise can get into deep, long-term debt. 

The issue was taken so seriously by Commissioner Paul Tagliabue that he conducted a hearing on the issue earlier this month. Tagliabue ordered Bowlen to pay most of the money immediately, and Bowlen wrote a check for $22 million, which the league then gave to Elway and Davis. 

Bowlen acknowledged the arrangement with Elway and Davis, but said, ''There was never a salary-cap violation.'' He said he believed that other teams were attempting to spread such rumors. Although the Broncos did not cheat the salary-cap rules, they apparently did violate league guidelines regarding the way players are paid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html
Harold Henderson, the chairman of the Management Council and the NFL's executive vice president of labor relations: "The investigation resulted in the discovery of undisclosed agreements between the club and Broncos players during the same period [1996-1998] pursuant to which various players agreed to defer certain compensation in exchange for a commitment to pay interest on the deferred amounts," Henderson said in the statement. "These agreements were plainly designed to help the club cope with seasonal cash flow problems exacerbated by the Broncos' need to fund front-end expenditures associated with development of the new stadium in Denver."

http://www.scout.com/nfl/broncos/story/1545895-debunking-of-the-broncos-cheating-scandal

From 1996-98, the NFL found that the Broncos had agreed to defer payments to quarterback John Elway and running back Terrell Davis. The total amount of the payments was $29 million. As part of the agreement, the Broncos would pay both players in deferred payments, with interest.

Broncos did circumvent the salary cap, but why did they do it? This answer is simple. Owner Pat Bowlen, and the team, were in the process of building a state of the art new stadium. The cost of this stadium was approximately $401 million, of which $100 million Pat Bowlen was responsible for. Denver's actions in circumventing the cap were a direct result of the stadium being built. In other words, no stadium would have meant no agreements, no deferred payments and no salary cap infractions.

In a written statement, Bowlen explained that the club gained no competitive advantage from the infractions."The non-disclosures brought to my attention by the National Football League took place in the mid-1990s," Bowlen said. "We cooperated with the NFL throughout their examination of the situation. While I regret that the circumstances took place, it is important to note that there was no competitive advantage gained by our organization, nor was there any involvement or responsibility by anyone who is currently with the Broncos in any capacity."

I have google, but I am distraught over Prince's recent demise.  First Vanity . . . now this?  It's been a tough year for celebrities.

With that caveat, I still don't see where it says the deferred salary obligations were counted against the cap from Day 1.  Google says repeatedly that the arrangements were not disclosed -- what is left unsaid is how far the non-disclosure went.  If Elway was already getting a well-below-market $2.1-2.6 million during the Super Bowl years and there were $29 million of deferred payments, then how much was he getting during those seasons?  A hundred bucks and a promissory note for ~$2.6 million?  Sorry if I am not buying Pat Bowlen's spin on this. 

[Jet9]

20 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

First of all, you should worry about your own team who hasn't sniffed the playoffs in 5 years.

Second of all, the Pats cleared this entire situation with the NFL prior to signing a contract. The NFL said this is 100% within the salary cap rules.

Just another great example of the Pats playing chess and the rest of the NFL playing checkers.

You never seem to want to answer the question, as I've posed it numerous times, but do you have kids?

 

Because some of the sh*t that comes out of your mouth regarding the Pats' cheating on a morality scale is pretty disgusting.

[Dcat]

19 minutes ago, Jet9 said:

You never seem to want to answer the question, as I've posed it numerous times, but do you have kids?

 

Because some of the sh*t that comes out of your mouth regarding the Pats' cheating on a morality scale is pretty disgusting.

it really is. Hell of a way to lead by example.  But the same is true for every Pat fan I know that has kids.  Those dads and some moms are actually preaching that the Patriots lies are real and that even "if" they cheated, such cheating is merely a bending of the rules and that's ok in Patriotsville... completely acceptable because their Pats are unjustifiably persecuted.  Today's Pats fans....  raising an entire generation of ethically vacuous kids. 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

23 hours ago, AFCEastFan said:

I have google, but I am distraught over Prince's recent demise.  First Vanity . . . now this?  It's been a tough year for celebrities.

With that caveat, I still don't see where it says the deferred salary obligations were counted against the cap from Day 1.  Google says repeatedly that the arrangements were not disclosed -- what is left unsaid is how far the non-disclosure went.  If Elway was already getting a well-below-market $2.1-2.6 million during the Super Bowl years and there were $29 million of deferred payments, then how much was he getting during those seasons?  A hundred bucks and a promissory note for ~$2.6 million?  Sorry if I am not buying Pat Bowlen's spin on this. 

It is inferred because Bowlen said they did not gain any cap advantage. If that was untrue, Tagliabue would have objected to that being in the statement released. If they didn't do that, then this would have been a MAJOR scandal because THEN they would have been circumventing the salary cap. There was no accusation of them doing that, and no punishment for doing that. 

Elway's cap number in a given year means nothing & I don't know why you keep repeating it, thinking you have uncovered some smoking gun.

He obviously renegotiated to give his team cap room.

Here:

1997 renegotiation to lower his cap number: 

http://nflhuskers.com/archives/articles/1997smithtobroncos.html

Adam Schefter, Denver Post Sports Writer - April 1997.

To save $3.1 million against this season's salary cap, the Broncos gave Elway a $2.26 million signing , bonus and extended his contract one year until 2001. According to the NFL Management Council, Elway's salary-cap figure for the 1997 season now will be adjusted down from $5.3 million to $2.2 million.

Elway's base salary this season will be just under $600,000, which should make him the league's lowest-paid starting quarterback. (Better be a good year for car sales).

1998 renegotiation to lower his cap number:

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/1998/05/09/oth_227772.shtml#.VxkhAWOMBYc

Elway's decision in late February allowed the Broncos to sign left guard Mark Schlereth and defensive end Neil Smith to new contracts. Elway was given an extra $155,000 for agreeing to postpone the payment and would have to be a member of the Broncos to get the $1.6 million payment in March 1999.

It is the fourth time Elway has renegotiated his contract since signing a 5-year $28.56 million deal in 1996.

 

Any other baseless accusations you'd like to make in an endeavor to say "Elway & the Broncos did it too!"?

They didn't. Your boys are still lowlife dirtbag cheaters.

[afosomf]

They will  never catch Krafty, 1) these $$$ are earmarked 10 yrs down the road and 2) hard to quantify the value of his daily blow jobs

[AFCEastFan]

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It is inferred because Bowlen said they did not gain any cap advantage. If that was untrue, Tagliabue would have objected to that being in the statement released. If they didn't do that, then this would have been a MAJOR scandal because THEN they would have been circumventing the salary cap. There was no accusation of them doing that, and no punishment for doing that. 

Elway's cap number in a given year means nothing & I don't know why you keep repeating it, thinking you have uncovered some smoking gun.

He obviously renegotiated to give his team cap room.

Here:

1997 renegotiation to lower his cap number: 

http://nflhuskers.com/archives/articles/1997smithtobroncos.html

Adam Schefter, Denver Post Sports Writer - April 1997.

To save $3.1 million against this season's salary cap, the Broncos gave Elway a $2.26 million signing , bonus and extended his contract one year until 2001. According to the NFL Management Council, Elway's salary-cap figure for the 1997 season now will be adjusted down from $5.3 million to $2.2 million.

Elway's base salary this season will be just under $600,000, which should make him the league's lowest-paid starting quarterback. (Better be a good year for car sales).

1998 renegotiation to lower his cap number:

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/1998/05/09/oth_227772.shtml#.VxkhAWOMBYc

Elway's decision in late February allowed the Broncos to sign left guard Mark Schlereth and defensive end Neil Smith to new contracts. Elway was given an extra $155,000 for agreeing to postpone the payment and would have to be a member of the Broncos to get the $1.6 million payment in March 1999.

It is the fourth time Elway has renegotiated his contract since signing a 5-year $28.56 million deal in 1996.

 

Any other baseless accusations you'd like to make in an endeavor to say "Elway & the Broncos did it too!"?

They didn't. Your boys are still lowlife dirtbag cheaters.

This is the big Perry Mason moment after all your research?? You could have saved yourself a lot of time -- I will stipulate that the Patriots are the cheatingest cheaters in NFL history -- bad for the integrity of the game, bad for children trying to learn life lessons, just pure evil filth.  

I see that you are hellbent on drawing every possible inference in favor of the Broncos (including crediting, without scrutiny, the self-serving statements of Pat Bowlen and assuming that the league under Tagliabue was a paragon of integrity and that he would ensure that owners only made completely truthful statements to the press) and lapping up every bit of Bronco fan-boy spin as if it were fact (my favorite one is calling the Broncos penalties a "slap on the wrist", as even to this day -- at approximately $1.9 million in total -- the cash penalty they received is the largest team fine in NFL history, which says nothing how it (along with the draft pick penalties) looked in the context of the "we handle our business internally" world of the pre-Goodell NFL).  

And at the same time, of course (and as is your prerogative), you draw every inference possible against the Patriots despite evidence suggesting that this is more about funneling money to Brady's idiot pal than it is to Brady himself.  Not to mention that the league already knows about the arrangement and hasn't done anything about it even though the time is riper than it has ever been in history to nail the Patriots to the wall for even minor salary cap violations. 

Which takes me back to my original post:  The NFL really doesn't seem care about salary cap violations in the grand scheme of things.  That's too bad, because I think that if the Patriots are truly paying Brady under the table or they are committing other egregious salary cap violations, then they deserve a truly catastrophic penalty, where what the T-Wolves got for Joe Smith would be just the starting point.  

 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, AFCEastFan said:

This is the big Perry Mason moment after all your research?? You could have saved yourself a lot of time -- I will stipulate that the Patriots are the cheatingest cheaters in NFL history -- bad for the integrity of the game, bad for children trying to learn life lessons, just pure evil filth.  

I see that you are hellbent on drawing every possible inference in favor of the Broncos (including crediting, without scrutiny, the self-serving statements of Pat Bowlen and assuming that the league under Tagliabue was a paragon of integrity and that he would ensure that owners only made completely truthful statements to the press) and lapping up every bit of Bronco fan-boy spin as if it were fact (my favorite one is calling the Broncos penalties a "slap on the wrist", as even to this day -- at approximately $1.9 million in total -- the cash penalty they received is the largest team fine in NFL history, which says nothing how it (along with the draft pick penalties) looked in the context of the "we handle our business internally" world of the pre-Goodell NFL).  

And at the same time, of course (and as is your prerogative), you draw every inference possible against the Patriots despite evidence suggesting that this is more about funneling money to Brady's idiot pal than it is to Brady himself.  Not to mention that the league already knows about the arrangement and hasn't done anything about it even though the time is riper than it has ever been in history to nail the Patriots to the wall for even minor salary cap violations. 

Which takes me back to my original post:  The NFL really doesn't seem care about salary cap violations in the grand scheme of things.  That's too bad, because I think that if the Patriots are truly paying Brady under the table or they are committing other egregious salary cap violations, then they deserve a truly catastrophic penalty, where what the T-Wolves got for Joe Smith would be just the starting point.  

 

 

You really can't read so great. It wasn't a serious fine because they didn't do anything serious. They didn't count interest on deferred payments on the cap. In the strictest sense, it's easy to infer that the interest was not salary for playing football anyway. 

And even with that, they still got hit with a fine and lost draft picks. 

You tried crying about Elway's cap number as though it was evidence of shady deals that violated the cap rules, when it was plainly the result of restructuring that was made quite public at the time.

Despite your baseless accusation, there is no parallel between this and what Brady/NE are (and have been) clearly doing, which is paying Brady through a shell company so it doesn't count against the salary cap.

[AFCEastFan]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You really can't read so great. It wasn't a serious fine because they didn't do anything serious. They didn't count interest on deferred payments on the cap. In the strictest sense, it's easy to infer that the interest was not salary for playing football anyway. 

And even with that, they still got hit with a fine and lost draft picks. 

You tried crying about Elway's cap number as though it was evidence of shady deals that violated the cap rules, when it was plainly the result of restructuring that was made quite public at the time.

Despite your baseless accusation, there is no parallel between this and what Brady/NE are (and have been) clearly doing, which is paying Brady through a shell company so it doesn't count against the salary cap.

I don't know why you keep insisting that the Broncos penalty was not serious.  It is by far the largest penalty ever levied against a team in the pre-Goodell era ($1.918 million in total fines and two 3rd round picks).   The penalty is only small in comparison to how the NBA handles salary cap violations. 

In contrast, there has been no penalty whatsoever, large or small, levied against the Patriots for whatever you think is "clearly" going on here.  Even though Brady's situation is happening with the league's full knowledge.  At a time when Kraft and the team have very few friends in the league office or among fellow owners.  At a time when public opinion could not be more against the Patriots.  Under a commissioner who has not hesitated to levy 6 and 7 figure fines against, and take multiple draft picks from, that very team. 

One possible inference is that the Broncos must have really done something wrong to have received that kind of penalty from a commissioner as lax as Tagliabue while the Patriots must have really not done anything wrong to have avoided league penalties in the current climate.  Alternatively, we can just treat everything Pat Bowlen says as gospel and assume the league is now in cahoots with the Patriots despite all evidence to the contrary.  

You have already bought into the "nothing to see here" spin regarding the Broncos, so it is no surprise that you will not make any negative inferences about Elway even though it would appear from all that you have posted that there were years in 1996-98 when one of the league's most valuable players was paid a nominal amount in actual cash (because in addition to the restructured cap/salary numbers you cited, a significant portion of his actual salary was presumably being deferred).  If Brady were receiving a base salary of $100,000 cash this year, you would understandably be drawing every negative inference possible against him and the team. 

[Obrien2Toon]

No, Brady is just such a great man that he accepts being the #18 highest paid qb for the betterment of the team.

I remember when i was a kid and someone explained the salary cap to me, thinking why not just pay guys league minimum and pay them in other ways.

Pretty much what they are doing now. I'm sure they have multiple deals for after he retires too.

 

[AFCEastFan]

2 hours ago, Obrien2Toon said:

No, Brady is just such a great man that he accepts being the #18 highest paid qb for the betterment of the team.

I remember when i was a kid and someone explained the salary cap to me, thinking why not just pay guys league minimum and pay them in other ways.

Pretty much what they are doing now. I'm sure they have multiple deals for after he retires too.

 

Right, just like John Elway was such a great guy he was willing to become the league's lowest paid starting QB just so Mark Schlereth and Neil Smith could get paid. 

Would I be surprised if the Patriots are paying Brady off-the-books?  Absolutely not.  Do I think that this is the way that they are doing it?  Absolutely not.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

14 hours ago, AFCEastFan said:

I don't know why you keep insisting that the Broncos penalty was not serious.  It is by far the largest penalty ever levied against a team in the pre-Goodell era ($1.918 million in total fines and two 3rd round picks).   The penalty is only small in comparison to how the NBA handles salary cap violations. 

In contrast, there has been no penalty whatsoever, large or small, levied against the Patriots for whatever you think is "clearly" going on here.  Even though Brady's situation is happening with the league's full knowledge.  At a time when Kraft and the team have very few friends in the league office or among fellow owners.  At a time when public opinion could not be more against the Patriots.  Under a commissioner who has not hesitated to levy 6 and 7 figure fines against, and take multiple draft picks from, that very team. 

One possible inference is that the Broncos must have really done something wrong to have received that kind of penalty from a commissioner as lax as Tagliabue while the Patriots must have really not done anything wrong to have avoided league penalties in the current climate.  Alternatively, we can just treat everything Pat Bowlen says as gospel and assume the league is now in cahoots with the Patriots despite all evidence to the contrary.  

You have already bought into the "nothing to see here" spin regarding the Broncos, so it is no surprise that you will not make any negative inferences about Elway even though it would appear from all that you have posted that there were years in 1996-98 when one of the league's most valuable players was paid a nominal amount in actual cash (because in addition to the restructured cap/salary numbers you cited, a significant portion of his actual salary was presumably being deferred).  If Brady were receiving a base salary of $100,000 cash this year, you would understandably be drawing every negative inference possible against him and the team. 

A pair of 3's isn't even equivalent to one half of 1 of the multiple 1st round picks the Patriots have been docked.

Compared to NE, this is nothing to see here. It is not even in the same galaxy as paying Brady off the books to give the team more cap space. The big deal was Tagliabue wanted to set a precedent so other teams didn't leverage their franchise debt too much because it could lead to other bad things (namely, creditors owning part or all of an NFL franchise because shares in the team's ownership might be used as collateral.

You literally must not understand how a salary cap number is derived. The problem was not in deferring his salary. It was the interest. Everything that was paid to Elway came off the cap except the interest. They did not skirt any cap hits because of this. Any money he received came off the cap (except for the interest, which has nothing to do with paying him for football). This is far from paying significant amounts to a company Brady owns a good enough chunk of to nag the team controller to pay his past due invoices. So Brady gets paid in other ways by the team, and then just coincidentally agrees to take a salary of over $10M/year less than he's worth. Hm...

I don't even give a crap about - nor do I at all like - the Broncos. But compared to the Patriots they're squeaky clean. If you have any evidence that Elway was paid salary off the salary cap, that allowed him to get paid the same amount without having it hit the team's cap, let's see it.