Tom Brady's suspension re-instated (MERGED)

[greenwichjetfan]

15 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

No one was trying to get Brady. Why would the NFL embarrass themselves like Deflategate did making them the butt of jokes and giving them widespread bad publicity. Not just on the sports page either but a year ago a national headline. And Brady is a top star Qb and a good citizen the kind of player they build their brand on. So it's insanity to think Roger and the league went after them. They brought it on themselves and just got what they deserved. I hope it sticks. 

This is the best part. The whole "haterz gonn hate" and "they just come after us cuz we're the best" crap. 

Why on earth would Goodell, the commissioner of the league in which Brady is a high character*, classy*, good looking heterosexual* superstar with a supermodel wife and no scandals, go after him? How would that serve his purposes as the commish, or the NFL's as a whole? 

Ask this^ to a pats fan or nyjunk, and you get ignored.

[AzogtheDefiler]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

This is the best part. The whole "haterz gonn hate" and "they just come after us cuz we're the best" crap. 

Why on earth would Goodell, the commissioner of the league in which Brady is a high character*, classy*, good looking heterosexual* superstar with a supermodel wife and no scandals, go after him? How would that serve his purposes as the commish, or the NFL's as a whole? 

Ask this^ to a pats fan or nyjunk, and you get ignored.

Play Devil's Advocate and you can answer the question yourself. 

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

This is the best part. The whole "haterz gonn hate" and "they just come after us cuz we're the best" crap. 

Why on earth would Goodell, the commissioner of the league in which Brady is a high character*, classy*, good looking heterosexual* superstar with a supermodel wife and no scandals, go after him? How would that serve his purposes as the commish, or the NFL's as a whole? 

Ask this^ to a pats fan or nyjunk, and you get ignored.

it's not about Brady, it's about the pats.  nothing hurts the Pats more than to sit Brady.  The pats have bent rules in the face of the league for 10-15 years and have been warned, the league was fed up.

[Super Bowles]

[Jet Fan RI]

50 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

No, they slightly underinflated footballs.  I don't think there is any doubt but the issue is ridiculously overblown including the nonsensical stuff on fumbling.  

Not quite a complete description. After the officials certified the pressures were in compliance with the rules, the equipment guy brought the pressures below compliance. The way you put it makes it sound like the Pats merely under-inflated the balls in the first place and the officials did not notice. The actual facts paint a greater level of culpability.

[AzogtheDefiler]

3 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

Not quite a complete description. After the officials certified the pressures were in compliance with the rules, the equipment guy brought the pressures below compliance. The way you put put it makes it sound like the Pats merely under-inflated the balls in the first place and the officials did not notice. The actual facts paint a greater level of culpability.

DId they certify them? I thought they could not remember what measuring instrument they used? No?

[Beerfish]

31 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it's not about Brady, it's about the pats.  nothing hurts the Pats more than to sit Brady.  The pats have bent rules in the face of the league for 10-15 years and have been warned, the league was fed up.

Bent?  lol

[Rangers9]

Imo this is not a payback by owners who pushed Roger to be tough with the Patriots. Because Deflategate hurt them in their pocketbook. The image of the league was tarnished on a national stage. And that hurts the value of their franchise which after themselves is what they care most about. Why do you think Kraft accepted the NFL's decision on Deflategate. Because he isn't going to cut his nose to spite his face. He can talk all he wants but in the scheme of things he doesn't give squat about Tom Brady. I even heard him on TV last year say that if Brady hadn't accepted team parameters on his "unique" salary structure (as a superstar Qb) the team might have had to go on a different direction. In other words gotten rid of the guy he claims is like a son to him. Total BS. He wants the league to have power over the players. 

[Integrity28]

1 hour ago, WWWWombat said:

Stopped caring about this a while ago.  It's much more about Goodell than Brady or the Pats.

Technically, it's not... but I listen to the Boston sports radio, and can see how their fans would delude themselves into thinking all sorts of silly things.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, AzogtheDefiler said:

What? I am now totally lost. Playing Devil's Advocate the balls in the SB were inflated properly and Brady played well. He also played well last year. Also the NFL refused to release the study on the ball inflation. Similar to the smoking gun of Brady destroying his phone the lack of transparency on the side of the NFL is another smoking gun IMO. Again I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do feel the NFL should be more transparent.

First of all it makes no difference what the effect is.  There a rule in place that Brady circumvented to gain an advantage.....cheating.  That's what he's being punished for, not the outcome of cheating.

Second, the whole idea was that the deflated ball gives him feel and an advantage in cold weather games.  Not the SB in warm weather.

The league had no need to release any studies.  He was caught cheating.  By the NFL, not Pats fans who argue the degree of cheating, it's their go to defense along with everyone does it

[Jet Fan RI]

1 minute ago, AzogtheDefiler said:

DId they certify them? I thought they could not remember what measuring instrument they used? No?

They described their procedure prior to gametime as being that they measured every ball, and any out of spec balls had air added or removed as needed to be brought into compliance with the rule. The bookeeping at halftime was unfortunately sloppy with regard to the officials failing to note which gauge was used by which official, but fortunately the scientific analysis considered all permutations and combinations of gauge use. The results showed deflation beyond natural causes to a level of certainty far exceeding the needed "more probable than not" required by the rules to prove rule violation.

[Cosimojet]

30 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it's not about Brady, it's about the pats.  nothing hurts the Pats more than to sit Brady.  The pats have bent rules in the face of the league for 10-15 years and have been warned, the league was fed up.

The Pats didn’t bend rules, they broke them to gain a competitive advantage, The commish covered for them, but also told to stop or face consequences and the Pats ignored those warnings.  They are getting only a pittance to what they truly deserve.  Pats fans should be happy.

[Jet Nut]

[AzogtheDefiler]

5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

First of all it makes no difference what the effect is.  There a rule in place that Brady circumvented to gain an advantage.....cheating.  That's what he's being punished for, not the outcome of cheating.

Second, the whole idea was that the deflated ball gives him feel and an advantage in cold weather games.  Not the SB in warm weather.

The league had no need to release any studies.  He was caught cheating.  By the NFL, not Pats fans who argue the degree of cheating, it's their go to defense along with everyone does it

But the punishment was $25k per the rules? I cannot follow your rationale at all. In the 2nd half of the Colts game the weather was the same and he threw better than the first half and he was pretty good in 2015 too. Again cheated/caught but the punishment is $25k. Now if you tell me the punishment is for cell phone destruction and non-cooperation that is a different story. 

[AzogtheDefiler]

8 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

They described their procedure prior to gametime as being that they measured every ball, and any out of spec balls had air added or removed as needed to be brought into compliance with the rule. The bookeeping at halftime was unfortunately sloppy with regard to the officials failing to note which gauge was used by which official, but fortunately the scientific analysis considered all permutations and combinations of gauge use. The results showed deflation beyond natural causes to a level of certainty far exceeding the needed "more probable than not" required by the rules to prove rule violation.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/03/09/seventh-grader-with-last-name-goodell-odds-with-deflategate-findings/Ar1e8ZfjxjukirsXKVrH0H/story.html

 

There are numerous stories out there now that show something different. I just wish the NFL was more transparent.

[AFCEastFan]

6 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

They described their procedure prior to gametime as being that they measured every ball, and any out of spec balls had air added or removed as needed to be brought into compliance with the rule. The bookeeping at halftime was unfortunately sloppy with regard to the officials failing to note which gauge was used by which official, but fortunately the scientific analysis considered all permutations and combinations of gauge use. The results showed deflation beyond natural causes to a level of certainty far exceeding the needed "more probable than not" required by the rules to prove rule violation.

I thought that the idea that the deflation could not be explained entirely by natural causes has long since been thoroughly debunked by John Leonard and others?

If so, I still believe that the Patriots tampered with the balls after inspection, but just the illegal tampering did not necessarily result in the balls being out of compliance. 

 

[nyjunc]

22 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

Not quite a complete description. After the officials certified the pressures were in compliance with the rules, the equipment guy brought the pressures below compliance. The way you put it makes it sound like the Pats merely under-inflated the balls in the first place and the officials did not notice. The actual facts paint a greater level of culpability.

if this was such a huge issue and Indy knew earlier that season why did they wait until days before the title game?  

 

did the NFL test every game? the only way to truly know about the PSI levels is to test all games.

 

[Jet Fan RI]

Just now, AzogtheDefiler said:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/03/09/seventh-grader-with-last-name-goodell-odds-with-deflategate-findings/Ar1e8ZfjxjukirsXKVrH0H/story.html

 

There are numerous stories out there now that show something different. I just wish the NFL was more transparent.

Well, consider the source. The Boston "GLOB" reporting on the work of the seventh grader. I happen to have a Ph.D. in physics. I read the scientific report on the work done by the investigative team, and I am satisfied the the work was of high caliber and is accurate.

[AzogtheDefiler]

Just now, Jet Fan RI said:

Well, consider the source. The Boston "GLOB" reporting on the work of the seventh grader. I happen to have a Ph.D. in physics. I read the scientific report on the work done by the investigative team, and I am satisfied the the work was of high caliber and is accurate.

But there are many with degrees similar to yours that differ too and you have to agree there was no control experiment. Again, its fine but the punishment was not for deflated balls it was for destroying the cell phone I think. 

[Jet Fan RI]

3 minutes ago, AFCEastFan said:

I thought that the idea that the deflation could not be explained entirely by natural causes has long since been thoroughly debunked by John Leonard and others?

If so, I still believe that the Patriots tampered with the balls after inspection, but just the illegal tampering did not necessarily result in the balls being out of compliance. 

 

 

I have seen no convincing analysis that calls the scientific work into question. And I must say your position on the tampering is rather peculiar. Are you saying the Pats tampered with the balls for the purposes of deflating them but botched the job? If so, I do not agree.

[ghost_in_pads02]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

if this was such a huge issue and Indy knew earlier that season why did they wait until days before the title game?  

 

did the NFL test every game? the only way to truly know about the PSI levels is to test all games.

 

Supposedly the NFL tested all game balls this past year and was supposed to release that report to show how huge of a difference the Pats game balls were in the AFC title game compared to this seasons balls for all teams..

emmm..wonder why they didnt release those numbers...and how often did they really test any teams game balls.

[NYs Stepchild]

5 minutes ago, AzogtheDefiler said:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/03/09/seventh-grader-with-last-name-goodell-odds-with-deflategate-findings/Ar1e8ZfjxjukirsXKVrH0H/story.html

 

There are numerous stories out there now that show something different. I just wish the NFL was more transparent.

They have video of MacNally "The deflator" (self described) taking the balls into a private bathroom. By all means believe what you want

[Jet Fan RI]

6 minutes ago, AzogtheDefiler said:

But there are many with degrees similar to yours that differ too and you have to agree there was no control experiment. Again, its fine but the punishment was not for deflated balls it was for destroying the cell phone I think. 

No, I do not have to agree with that. The testing included a full controlled experiment in which temperatures and rain simulations were introduced. It was a solid piece of work and showed good consistency with the halftime measurements.

[AFCEastFan]

3 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

 

I have seen no convincing analysis that calls the scientific work into question. And I must say your position on the tampering is rather peculiar. Are you saying the Pats tampered with the balls for the purposes of deflating them but botched the job? If so, I do not agree.

Just to be clear, are you saying that you have not seen John Leonard's analysis?  Or are you saying that you have seen his analysis and it is unconvincing?

My belief is the Patriots illegally tampered with the balls to ensure they were not "hard" in a subjective sense, but not to deflate them beneath a specific psi number.  When they did deflate the balls, it was far from a scientific process -- sometimes when they deflated the balls they remained within the legal limits (and, Leonard's analysis among others suggests that the Colts game may have been one of those times) and sometimes they did not. 

[AzogtheDefiler]

8 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

No, I do not have to agree with that. The testing included a full controlled experiment in which temperatures and rain simulations were introduced. It was a solid piece of work and showed good consistency with the halftime measurements.

By control I mean testing at other games, events, etc. This is pointless. 

[greenwichjetfan]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

it's not about Brady, it's about the pats.  nothing hurts the Pats more than to sit Brady.  The pats have bent rules in the face of the league for 10-15 years and have been warned, the league was fed up.

Holy circular logic. 

[Jet Fan RI]

8 minutes ago, AFCEastFan said:

Just to be clear, are you saying that you have not seen John Leonard's analysis?  Or are you saying that you have seen his analysis and it is unconvincing?

My belief is the Patriots illegally tampered with the balls to ensure they were not "hard" in a subjective sense, but not to deflate them beneath a specific psi number.  When they did deflate the balls, it was far from a scientific process -- sometimes when they deflated the balls they remained within the legal limits (and, Leonard's analysis among others suggests that the Colts game may have been one of those times) and sometimes they did not. 

I read several so-called debunking reports and found them all lacking. I do not recall if Leonard's report was among those i read. But at one point there were so many reports I decided I was wasting my time and stopped reading them.

I find the scientific report to be a convincing demonstration of deflation beyond natural causes. You are, of course, entitled to have a different opinion.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Holy circular logic. 

it's called reality and common sense, try it some time.

[greenwichjetfan]

Just now, nyjunc said:

it's called reality and common sense, try it some time.

Which part is reality and which part common sense?

[Jet Fan RI]

2 minutes ago, AzogtheDefiler said:

By control I mean testing at other games, events, etc. This is pointless. 

I think you're right. Let's agree to disagree. I have the impression there is nothing I can say that would change your mind.

[AzogtheDefiler]

2 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

I think you're right. Let's agree to disagree. I have the impression there is nothing I can say that would change your mind.

I just don't trust the NFL. Nothing against you.

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Which part is reality and which part common sense?

all of it but I wouldn't expect someone like you to get it.

[Jet Nut]

31 minutes ago, AzogtheDefiler said:

But the punishment was $25k per the rules? I cannot follow your rationale at all. In the 2nd half of the Colts game the weather was the same and he threw better than the first half and he was pretty good in 2015 too. Again cheated/caught but the punishment is $25k. Now if you tell me the punishment is for cell phone destruction and non-cooperation that is a different story. 

No it wasn't.  The commissioner considered that the actions taken to circumvent the rules constituted cheating.  Changes everything. 

The weather in the Colts game was unseasonably WARM.  Follow along, not that complicated

[Jet Fan RI]

Just now, AzogtheDefiler said:

I just don't trust the NFL. Nothing against you.

OK. All I can suggest is that you find the full report of the investigation. The scientific report is attached as an appendix. Look at the section describing game simulation. In the absence of a full control test involving other games, such simulations are a reasonable alternative. Try to form your own judgment.  

[AFCEastFan]

4 minutes ago, Jet Fan RI said:

I read several so-called debunking reports and found them all lacking. I do not recall Leonard's report was among those i read. But at one point there was so many reports I decided I was wasting my time and stopped reading them.

I find the scientific report to be a convincing demonstration of deflation beyond natural causes. You are, of course, to have a different opinion.

Leonard is a mechanical engineering professor at MIT and Philadelphia Eagles fan.  His "report" (which is really more of a lecture along with powerpoint) came out in late 2015 after the initial "junk" debunking reports.  If you stopped with those, then you missed it. 

I am not a scientist, so I am stuck relying on the opinions of other scientists informed by what I can determine about the scientist's biases, bona fides, etc.  From this perspective (and without being able to really understand the scientific details), the Leonard analysis strikes me as the definitive -- and most correct -- one.  Again, I am not a scientist so I may be completely off base.