For Those Still Crying About Lee

[LIJetsFan]

1 hour ago, Klecko73isGod said:

I get what you are saying from a value perspective but isn't it possible that based on Bowles schemes the Jets had Lee as the best completely healthy player on their board there?

 

 

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/darron-lee-vs-michigan-2014/

I just watch some tape and for a HS QB converted to LB he played pretty fast.  OSU had him all over the field, blitzing and in coverage from both the OLB and ILB spot.  His speed and motor are def up to NFL standards.  He looked ok in coverage to me as well.  Both his tackling and coverage skills where better than I expected them to be based on reports I've read of his "weaknesses".  

He'll gain NFL conditioning/muscle mass while he plays behind Henderson.  I'm starting to like this pick more and more but this is certainly not an immediate gratification pick, nor is it a value pick based on ILB/cap costs.  Comparisons to Mayben are way way off.  I think we found the coverage (as I've seen this pick being referred to) $LB of the future.            

[JETSfaninNE]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

See my other response in this thread.  There are 5 guys to be had in the 2nd/3rd round who bring the exact same thing to the table.  Maybe not the athlete Lee is but I don think the drop off would be significant at all.

There is no agrument in today's NFL that Lee's skill set is important.  That type of player who can stay on the field on running and passing down is crucial...but its the value of the pick there that isnt sitting well with me. 

Macc said last night that he believes Lee is nowhere near his ceiling, not sure if they could say the same about the others.  They obviously believe he will be one of the most important pieces of this defense for a long time coming.

Him and Bowles really made it sound like they did pick a QB in the first round, just not on the offensive side of the ball.  This dude will eventually take over for Harris in the "QB of the defense" department.

[Augustiniak]

the jets had the slowest lbs in the league last year.  they couldn't chase down qbs who escaped the pocket and had no shot of chasing down rbs on screens.  now they draft a guy specifically to chase down faster offensive players and people complain - the same people who complained last year when the jets vaunted d couldn't get off the field on 3rd downs b/c they had demario davis chasing.

[JustInFudge]

6 minutes ago, JETSfaninNE said:

Macc said last night that he believes Lee is nowhere near his ceiling, not sure if they could say the same about the others.  They obviously believe he will be one of the most important pieces of this defense for a long time coming.

Him and Bowles really made it sound like they did pick a QB in the first round, just not on the offensive side of the ball.  This dude will eventually take over for Harris in the "QB of the defense" department.

I'm warming up to it.  I think the shock factor and the fact it's just not that exciting of a pick made it hard to swallow.  Really its about the value and the other players they could have had later that are similar.  We just have to trust here...and that's cool.  I'm sure he'll be fun a player to watch when he puts it all together. 

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

I always thought it was size queen?

We don't discriminate.   That's bad.

And they can use any bathroom they want at Target

[cant wait]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

The only crying I've read thus far is from the over-strident defenders of the pick being angry, to the point of near-hysteria, that anyone would question or analyze the pick in any way that deviates from "OMG AMAZING!!!".  There was one post in particular, forget who it was, in the Draft Day 1 thread that sounded like the poster was near tears IRL while writing it, it was so seething with furious indignation that someone somewhere said Lee was "small".

We all knew Bowles & Macc wanted and needed a LB.  A LB pick at #20 is not exactly rocket science given how the draft played out, and the only real objections are A. if you preferred the other (injury issue) guy who fell out of the 1st or B. You think small fast weak vs. run Linebackers are a short-term fad, not a long term NFL reality.

The pick makes sense from pre-draft talent evaluations, was not a reach based on fan-made and media-made mocks, and was a clear "Need" pick that didn't deviate too far from BAP.   While the player has issues of concern (size, durability in NFL at that size, ability vs. the run, ability to cover huge NFL TE's regularly), there are reasonable counter-arguments to most of them, and we (the Fanbase) will simply have to wait and see on this kid.  

 

As usual, 3 paragraphs and nothing of value 

[HessStation]

23 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

the jets had the slowest lbs in the league last year.  they couldn't chase down qbs who escaped the pocket and had no shot of chasing down rbs on screens.  now they draft a guy specifically to chase down faster offensive players and people complain - the same people who complained last year when the jets vaunted d couldn't get off the field on 3rd downs b/c they had demario davis chasing.

If only we could collectively smack the whiners on this board right after this post. Maybe choke them out for a bit too. Kick their shins. Stare them down.

[Bugg]

3 hours ago, HessStation said:

Dear all you Dumb ass Bastads,

2015 All Pro Linebackers:

Navarro Bowman 6'0 240

THomas Davis 6'1 235

Luke Kuechly 6'3 235

Bobby Wagner 6'0 240

Derrick Johnson 6'3 245

Now take these numbers and go to the directly shove them up your ass button and repeat until the word, undersized, is erased from your jetnation vocabulary, regarding NFL linebackers.

 

Except each and every one of those guys is heavier than Lee. 

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Except each and every one of those guys is heavier than Lee. 

And Keuchly was the only first round pick at of that group.

[HessStation]

Just now, Bugg said:

Except each and every one of those guys is heavier than Lee. 

[jvill 51]

6 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Except each and every one of those guys is heavier than Lee. 

By 3 to 13 pounds, with the benefit of multiple years in a professional strength and conditioning program. Lee ran a 4.47 at 232 pounds, he can very easily tack on a few more pounds of muscle without losing his athletic ability.

[HessStation]

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

And Keuchly was the only first round pick at of that group.

[nycdan]

12 minutes ago, JiF said:

And Keuchly was the only first round pick at of that group.

 

Only if you don't count Derrick Johnson.

And Bobby Wagner was almost exactly the same weight as Lee was when he was drafted.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/bobby-wagner?id=2532966

 

[jvill 51]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

And Keuchly was the only first round pick at of that group.

I understand your point, but couldn't it be said that as the league continues to be more and more pass friendly the value of players with this skillset has risen, along with their draft stock? Knowing what we know about how these types of players have transitioned and been hugely successful in today's NFL, it's definitely quite possible the guys listed would have been graded and selected higher had they come out of college today as opposed to a few years ago.

[The Crusher]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

I didnt hate Lynch.  He made a lot of sense to me at #20.  I hated the idea of trading up for him.  So, yes, I would have taken Lynch (or one of the WR's).  Lee might be a good player but its my opinion you could have found that skill set in every single round more specifically, I think players like Cravens, Wright, Brown, Jones, Morrison would have been a better pick in the later rounds because I dont really see a significant drop off.  I get that he's an exceptional athlete and all that but IDK man...just seems like something we could have had later and taken a more important positoin there. 

I get this.  Yet we haven't had a LB that could cover in longer than I could remember.  Is it this the kid? No idea never heard of him before last night.   I will take your word that guys we could draft later could fill the same need. No way to judge this kid Until  we see him play.   He should just be good he should impact the defense.  You would hope a 20th overall would.  As of right now I'm just hoping we can feel more needs in the later rounds.  We certainly have our share. 

[legler82]

4 hours ago, KRL said:

Know Bowles history.  Back in 2014 ARZ lost multiple front seven players
at the start of the season (Abraham, Dockett & Washington) but he had
an overabundance of secondary talent.  So to cover up for that deficiency
Bowles converted Deone Bucannon to a "speed LB" to attack the multiple
spread offenses opponents were running:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/16723/deone-bucannon

That team went through 4 QB's (Palmer, Stanton, Lindley & Thomas) and still
won 11 games because of Bowles scheme.  After years of having "elephants"
at the LB position we are finally addressing the problem.  In addition
during Lee's rookie year he'll help us tremendously in special teams  

Buccanon role developed organically due to necessity.  They didn't draft for it.

[UnitedWhofans]

The only bad grade the Jets have gotten for this pick that I have seen was from the Washington Post and that's only because of the QB situation, nothing to do with the player himself.

Every other grade I have seen is positive

[legler82]

3 hours ago, KRL said:

And for the "size police" here are some measurables:

Jonathan Vilma (NYJ/NO) 6-1 230

Luke Kuechly (CAR) 6-3 235

Thomas Davis (CAR) 6-1 235

All play or played their best in the 4-3, a defense we don't run.

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, legler82 said:

All play or played their best in the 4-3, a defense we don't run.

I think we did run some 4-3 last year. Ran a lot of nickel too

[UnitedWhofans]

2 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Who cares? We need to stop drafting for now, and build a team for the next 10 years. No way around it, this was a bad pick by the Jets and just demonstrates that while the names have changed we are still a team that just does not get it from a big picture point of view.

First round picks, for the most part, need to immediate impact. The later rounds is where you build for the next 10 years.

Denver took their QB late but they have a great defense set up and a year or two to develop him.

Philly drafted a QB for the future at 2 and they are having a sh*t show

[Patriot Killa]

Gotta think the QB situation gets figured out tonight or tomorrow. This Fitz drama has to end.

[legler82]

3 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

The argument is going to be "Vilma didn't fit the 3-4", which is horse, but fans during the Mangini era truly bought into the notion that a coach has to have "his players" before he can install "his system", rather than scheming around the talent you do have.

Mangini and Tanny purging the few decent players back then is what ultimately led to Favre, to Rex, to Sanchez, to Idzik... and to bottoming out. All one big chain reaction.

Bowles has shown he is just as overly committed to his scheme as Rex, Mangini and Herm were.  If he scheme around personnel, Coples and Richardson would not be standing on the edge as 3-4 OLBs and we wouldn't drafting a "moneybacker".

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, legler82 said:

Bowles has shown he is just as overly committed to his scheme as Rex, Mangini and Herm were.  If he scheme around personnel, Coples and Richardson would not be standing on the edge as 3-4 OLBs and we wouldn't drafting a "moneybacker".

I disagree 100 percent. Bowles runs a variety of defenses, not just one scheme. 

[Integrity28]

Just now, legler82 said:

Bowles has shown he is just as overly committed to his scheme as Rex, Mangini and Herm were.  If he scheme around personnel, Coples and Richardson would not be standing on the edge as 3-4 OLBs and we wouldn't drafting a "moneybacker".

Coples is irrelevant because he's a horrible football player. 

Every coach needs scheme fits, but my point is that Mangini and Rex, moreso than Herm, basically had horrible defenses if every player wasn't a perfect fit.

Bowles actually has proven between here and Arizona that he can scheme to what he has. Giving him players that are ideal is a bonus, but he had a very good defense without the ideal pieces. Rex's defense without elite corners sucked in comparison.

I don't agree at all with how you're looking at this.

[JetFreak89]

Von Miller 40 vs Darron Lee simulcast. Obviously not saying he is going to be as good as Von Miller but interesting to see that Lee had more burst out of the gate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEgojjAAxrI

[Pcola]

3 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

You don't use the first round to pick a QB at 20 who might need a year OR two to sit.  You pick that guy in the 2nd or 3rd round.

But we pick an ILB that won't be on the field very much his first year.  Ok.

[legler82]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Coples is irrelevant because he's a horrible football player. 

Every coach needs scheme fits, but my point is that Mangini and Rex, moreso than Herm, basically had horrible defenses if every player wasn't a perfect fit.

Bowles actually has proven between here and Arizona that he can scheme to what he has. Giving him players that are ideal is a bonus, but he had a very good defense without the ideal pieces. Rex's defense without elite corners sucked in comparison.

I don't agree at all with how you're looking at this.

So putting a 300 lbs 3 teqhnique DT at OLB in your base 3-4 or drafting a guy to fill a specific role in a sub package is scheming around personnel?   

[HessStation]

2 minutes ago, Pcola said:

But we pick an ILB that won't be on the field very much his first year.  Ok.

How do you already have all this figured out? 

[JetBlue]

1 hour ago, cant wait said:

As usual, 3 paragraphs and nothing of value 

Agreed; Mr. Know It All doing his thing as usual. 

[legler82]

14 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I think we did run some 4-3 last year. Ran a lot of nickel too

Like most teams nowadays we are in subpackages probably 60+% of the time so Lee will get his snaps but make no mistake about it our base is the 3-4.

[JetBlue]

56 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Except each and every one of those guys is heavier than Lee. 

And Lee will put on an extra 5 to 10 pounds over time.  He is only 21 years old.  More importantly it will be muscle mass he needs to add. 

[UnitedWhofans]

3 minutes ago, legler82 said:

So putting a 300 lbs 3 teqhnique DT at OLB in your base 3-4 or drafting a guy to fill a specific role in a sub package is scheming around personnel?   

 

3 minutes ago, Pcola said:

But we pick an ILB that won't be on the field very much his first year.  Ok.

Wrong to both of you. He will START in the sub package and get more playing time. It is much easier to climb the LB depth chart than the WR depth chart on this team.

 

[Lupz27]

Lee is regarded as a higher value then then Cravens crowd because of what he brings from the neck up, he will one day be out there calling out offensive plays the way a great QB calls out defensive fronts is the thinking here, and why he was the pick.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, legler82 said:

Like most teams nowadays we are in subpackages probably 60+% of the time so Lee will get his snaps but make no mistake about it our base is the 3-4.

So if my math is right 60 percent is greater than 40. Which means Lee will play alota lot

[Dcat]

Just now, Lupz27 said:

Lee is regarded as a higher value then then Cravens crowd because of what he brings from the neck up, he will one day be out there calling out offensive plays the way a great QB calls out defensive fronts is the thinking here, and why he was the pick.

He sounded very inrtelligent in his interview last night on WESPN-NY with Roberts.  He was a 31 on the wonderasslick test too.  Very serious, smart kid.  Mature for his age.