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Scouting Report: Christian Hackenberg- (Team Failure)


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57 minutes ago, nyjbuddy said:

Anyone know why the Houston Texans didn't select Hackenberg before the Jets?  They had the pick right before the Jets, Bill O'Brien coached him (first hand experience with him), and they have Tom Savage and Brandon Weeden as their back-ups.  Are they all-in on Osweiler and don't feel like they needed another possible starting QB?  Maybe O'Brien and Hackenberg didn't get along?

They have a ton of holes,  just invested a ton in Brock Osweiller and clearly weren't in the market for a backup QB in the 2nd round, or 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th rounds. The 2nd round is not usually a place a team picks back up QBs unless they are stacked in other areas. 

If Houston had taken a different QB in the 2nd (before we picked).....

Hackenberg and O'brien got along fine. 

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6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This is a pretty solid case to oppose the "lol his college completion % sucked" crowd.  Hackenberg walked into a rough situation that got way worse when O'Brien left for the NFL.  It's a legitimate aspect of the discussion.

His offensive line play is a joke the last two years.  The kids had the size, but they were lost out there, and teams that blitzed PSU absolutely trashed him.  I didn't include Temple game because that game was broken down by The Film Room, and people were familiar with it.  That was a horrible day for the offensive line as well.  

6 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

This time of year I'm always looking forward to TC and the preseason shakeout.  This year Lee and esp Hack are the can't wait to see how they are doing guys.

I'm excited for Hackenberg, but I'm not expecting great things in camp this year.  He has a few things that seem deeply rooted in him, that he has to take care of before he takes off.  His throwing motion is off, hips fly open far too often, and he needs to work on that.  I know he was a former pitcher in high school, so I think he needs to break down his delivery and start over again, which should take time.  I expect a few missed easy passes, and a ton of "what a horrible pick" posts in camp this season.  

5 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

you have to wonder why so many other scouts were turned off by this when there are clear reasons why his play regressed.  i guess there's just such a fear of taking a qb high in the draft when there's bad tape, that's how you can lose your job.  

Don't get me wrong, as shown in the other threads, Hackenberg has his flaws.  He's not an accurate QB, and he has trouble learning to not zip every throw into coverage.  He's a prospect that needs to have his game broken down and built back up in certain aspects, which is going to take time.  Thee reason why Goff and Wentz went higher is because they don't need such drastic changes.  Lynch, I wasn't as big of a fan, and it's been reported that we had a 3rd round grade on Lynch (which probably means a 2nd round grade) but they probably rated them similarly.  

4 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

That's exactly the issue. With Hack, you are making an educated guess because the tape from the last 2 years is not pretty. He was broken by the system and the lack of scholarship players/oline. 

I am one of his biggest defenders on this board, but he made some AWFUL throws at times when he was facing zero pressure. Tough for a GM to take him in the 1st. Personally, I think his work ethic will allow him to regain his Freshmen year form and become an franchise QB, but it's a gamble. Then again, Lynch/Wentz were huge gambles also. 

 

Yeah, he's not a finished product at all, and first round picks have the pressure to play early.  Hackenberg needs to sit and learn to trust the line, and learn to put touch on the ball.  To be honest, I'm not sure I've seen a worse offensive line nor a QB with a worse ability to complete screen passes.  I though Sanchez was bad at it, but Hackenberg takes it to a new low.   

4 hours ago, drsamuel84 said:

Macc obviously sees potential and didn't want to risk the hope he'd make it to the third round.  I think it's a worthwhile move and I agree with the mentality of picking a QB until you find one.  At the same time, Macc didn't go out of his way to take this kid.  He didn't move up in the draft, give up any picks, make any trades etc.. he stood pat and made a decision that if was there in the 2nd he was worth the pick.  Whether he becomes a good NFL QB or not is still TBD but there's potential and value for a team like ours.

There is this video on TouTube about the Seahawks drafting Russel Wilson.  They had a supposed first round grade on Wilson (the GM said he had him the same as Luck in terms of play but Luck was higher because of size) but they waited until the third to pick him, and sweat out the third until their pick.  I think sometimes GMs have to take a calculated risk and gamble on waiting.  

4 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

i have not read any negativity about any other of their picks.  burris, jenkins, peake, etc., were all praised.  most think lee will excel under bowles.  

This almost makes me scared.  Most picks that our media love, turn out to be busts, lol.

4 hours ago, BowlesMovement said:

I don't think this was a great QB draft class from a can't miss prospect standpoint. I think most people feel Goff is the most NFL ready, but a lot of people question his upside. Wentz and Lynch are spread QB's who have a ton of risk associated with them, particularly Wentz being taken 2 overall. Hackenberg has as much upside as anyone in this draft, and as much downside too, that is why he went in the 2nd. The good thing is the downside is really nothing more than a late 2nd round pick for the Jets. From a risk management move, this was a great move by Hackenberg, despite what the JN scouts think of him.

I believe in Goff, I think he'll be a good QB in the league.  Maybe not a super-star, but good.  I'm torn on Wentz, because he has the tools but his competition is bad, his team was great, and his stats aren't eye-popping for his level of play.  For a franchise QB that has a team far superior to the ones you play, his stats were rather pedestrian.  He's the exact opposite of Hackenberg, and it'll be interesting to see how they develop.  Both have the mental capacity to lead teams, but one played with horrible line and talent, while the other had a major talent advantage.  I think Wentz is Hackenberg if the talent around him had not depreciated.   However, Hackenberg has higher potential, IMO.  

4 hours ago, 77DRAFT said:

I haven't seen a lot of Hack, but some of his "inaccurate' throws were too covered receivers and he was throwing up a prayer - these passes could not be intercepted but his receiver had a shot to make something happen, His receivers generally were not good, Maybe it's wishful thinking but I haven't seen more than a couple off target throws to openguys,  wonder how many pure misses he had ?   and or dropped interceptions, Fitz had 15 easy interceptions dropped last season according to Jaws, I remember at least 10.

I think he tries to do his best with the talent around him, but he just doesn't have the time.  It's hard to evaluate him because most plays besides hot reads have a mental clock on the play.  He rarely gets to the high end of this clock because the offensive line is so bad.  The offensive line being so bad means that defenses are super aggressive with their blitzes.  The best way to counter aggressive blitzes are with screen passes, which ofcourse he's horrible at.  It's a terrible situation for him and the team, so it's really a chicken or the egg question when it comes to Hackenberg.

3 hours ago, Freemanm said:

Playing Hackenberg in his rookie year (other than a few snaps during garbage time situations) would be extraordinarily stupid. Geno's career as a starter was ruined, in part, because of that. Also, the "no talent around him" argument is compelling, but couldn't the same argument be made for Geno in his first and second years?. 

Geno absolutely had horrible weapons his first two years, which was why it was kinda sad to see him not get a chance last year thanks to a punch.  Charone Peake could actually make a case for being the No.1 WR in Geno's rookie year.  Decker got hurt in I believe the Green Bay game in Geno's second year, and he was left with Nelson as the No. 1 WR.   I'm not saying Geno is the unluckiest guy on a team, but I think with weapons, his play will improve, much like a better surrounding cast around Hackenberg will cause him to improve. 

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I always frown when a reason to think a guy is going to be good is that every one else around him his bad, not that he is good.

If you want to convince me this guy is a real prospect to be a long time starter show me highlights of him doing something special, not of his team mates screwing up royally.

Kellen Clemens had no weapons and had the likes of Adrian Clark and Anthony Clement blocking for him, he must have been really good.

One of the big issues I have with the Jets draft is that they picked this guy with the eye of having a good supporting cast for him a year or two from now when he is supposed to be a starter and then almost ignored the oline and Wr weapons other than late rounders.

I wrote a pro Hackenberg post as well, with examples of great throws, some mobility, and some mental aspects of the game.  This one was the only thread that didn't get merged because it was a different subject.  The others I felt should be merged because it makes no sense to have the same conversation in 4 different threads.   

Kellen Clemens was a limited prospect, who got drafted for the exact opposite reasons as Hackenberg.  He took mediocre talent and over-achieved in a system that was designed to inflate stats.  Back then, the disdain for spread systems wasn't wide spread, and therefore people took the numbers and system at face value.  It's guys like Clemens, Weeden, and others that have caused a turn around in terms of believing spread systems because it doesn't translate well.  Hackenberg went the other way, because he took great talent and went in the dumpster because he had horrible guys around him.

If you consider this a lost season, I think next year they can focus on WRs/OL in the draft.  The defense is fairly young, so I think they can afford to focus on the offense.  I would've loved for them to draft Doctson this year though.

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

BTW, #7 up top is iffy team failure. In the NFL you expect that to be caught, and probably from his 19 yr old soph WR as well. But the throw was behind Godwin, who also needed to slow up as the ball was arriving, just to be able to attempt a play behind him. The throw is at least a full yard off. Now granted, it's downfield and it's not the biggest window, and Godwin did get 2 hands on it, but it would have been a better catch than throw had it been completed, adjusting for the ball mid-air. A strike throw and Godwin doesn't have to slow up or reach behind him, and maybe it's even a TD. Maybe. Should have been caught, but it wasn't a particularly good throw anyway.

I think if a ball hits both of your hands, it should be caught unless you are diving backwards or something.  It's not a perfect throw, but I think it's a catchable throw.  It's a bit behid because he's getting hit as he's throwing the pass.   Yeah, if he leads him there, it's a TD, but given the rush, I think it's a play that needs to be completed for sure.  He's going to get tackled but that is a catch that a talented WR makes.  

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I will maintain my one comment.  If people really do love Hackenburg and really do think he has a bright future if he can avoid that lack of talent thing at penn state in the same breath they should just be blasting the hell out of the Jets front office for the rest of their draft.  No help to an oline that is really only super solid in one guard spot,  no weapons until the 7th round.  Three out of the 1st four picks on defense.  We could be standing here the year after this one with Hack declared the starter and a blown up oline and Marshall is simply not a sure thing as far as holding it together goes.

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8 hours ago, carlito1171 said:

That blitzing LB who the RG totally missed in the second clip is none other then Jets 2016 1st round pick Darron Lee

That's a nice blitz by Lee, no doubt.  But I have to correct the assumption that the Guard was responsible.  There are 3 clips that show blitz pressure and the inside blitz in two of those cases is not the responsibility of the Guard.  They keep a back home for blitz pickup and the back completely whiffs and even purposely falls down to avoid contact.  It's tough to see because the back is way out of position and flops to avoid the rush. The last clip is on the Guard though, as he has to choose between two rushers and takes the outside rusher instead of the inside rusher.  That's a fatal error.  Base protection is always inside-out, blocking the nearest threat.  Inside man is always the choice here.  He blows it.

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Excellent job OP.  Love seeing these.

Not performance related for Hack but I like the way this kid already handles himself. Remember the dude that was booing the Hackenberg pick during the draft?  He posted this on Reddit:

Quote

JoABTqH.png

A man among boys.  #HackHype

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1 hour ago, sirlancemehlot said:

That's a nice blitz by Lee, no doubt.  But I have to correct the assumption that the Guard was responsible.  There are 3 clips that show blitz pressure and the inside blitz in two of those cases is not the responsibility of the Guard.  They keep a back home for blitz pickup and the back completely whiffs and even purposely falls down to avoid contact.  It's tough to see because the back is way out of position and flops to avoid the rush. The last clip is on the Guard though, as he has to choose between two rushers and takes the outside rusher instead of the inside rusher.  That's a fatal error.  Base protection is always inside-out, blocking the nearest threat.  Inside man is always the choice here.  He blows it.

+1

I was thinking the same thing.  That back is right there waiting and he dives on the floor like he is trying avoid contact.  I think they kept the G to help on Bosa who looked like he was beating the RT like a drum.  That was the most pathetic excuse for a cut block I have seen.  

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7 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

That's a nice blitz by Lee, no doubt.  But I have to correct the assumption that the Guard was responsible.  There are 3 clips that show blitz pressure and the inside blitz in two of those cases is not the responsibility of the Guard.  They keep a back home for blitz pickup and the back completely whiffs and even purposely falls down to avoid contact.  It's tough to see because the back is way out of position and flops to avoid the rush. The last clip is on the Guard though, as he has to choose between two rushers and takes the outside rusher instead of the inside rusher.  That's a fatal error.  Base protection is always inside-out, blocking the nearest threat.  Inside man is always the choice here.  He blows it.

I think the Lee blitz is completely on the RG.  There is no one other than the DE on that side (the safety or LB playing deep) with Lee blitzing.  The DE is doing a speed rush around the edge, and the RG has nowhere to go with him because he'll be behind him.  Lee comes right at him, and he moves out the way.  The back is there for blitz pickup, especially if there is an overload blitz, but this wasn't the case at call.  If this was a set up where there was a guy that lined up over him, and dropped back into coverage, or if someone else was blitzing off the edge, I'd understand.  But he has no one except a DE picked up by the RT (not well I might add), then he has to step up in the lane and atleast try to slow down Lee.  

The RB does a horrible job at trying to stop Lee, that is true, but he should have had some help from the RG.  My question:  Is the Lee dive legal?  I thought they got rid of the dive at the QBs leg play after Brady got hurt.  Or is that negated because he was tripped?

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16 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I always frown when a reason to think a guy is going to be good is that every one else around him his bad, not that he is good.

If you want to convince me this guy is a real prospect to be a long time starter show me highlights of him doing something special, not of his team mates screwing up royally.

Kellen Clemens had no weapons and had the likes of Adrian Clark and Anthony Clement blocking for him, he must have been really good.

One of the big issues I have with the Jets draft is that they picked this guy with the eye of having a good supporting cast for him a year or two from now when he is supposed to be a starter and then almost ignored the oline and Wr weapons other than late rounders.

They had a chance on getting Boyd in the 2nd round.

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What bothers me are a lot of the people claiming Hackenberg has some exceptional football IQ - Peyton Manning/Andre Luck-esque and that this was why he was the projected #1.

I don't see anything resembling that in the highlights. Yes he can basically run a pro-style offence but I'm not seeing the blitz recognition, the audibles to exploit matchups, the situational awareness (archer ftw) that those guys have been doing since College.

I don't want to sound like I'm always criticizing because he definitely seems pretty capable of getting the mental side of the game down. It's mainly just another reason to let him learn for a year. This is one area where I would have faith in him improving though.

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22 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I actually don't believe any of my above post. I just put it there to see if it'd get 10+ likes from the gerbils. 

too bad.  It was a surprisingly astute post.  Back to the usual....

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16 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

That's a nice blitz by Lee, no doubt.  But I have to correct the assumption that the Guard was responsible.  There are 3 clips that show blitz pressure and the inside blitz in two of those cases is not the responsibility of the Guard.  They keep a back home for blitz pickup and the back completely whiffs and even purposely falls down to avoid contact.  It's tough to see because the back is way out of position and flops to avoid the rush. The last clip is on the Guard though, as he has to choose between two rushers and takes the outside rusher instead of the inside rusher.  That's a fatal error.  Base protection is always inside-out, blocking the nearest threat.  Inside man is always the choice here.  He blows it.

The back #1 tried to take out Lee's legs and whiffed.

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, win4ever said:

I think the Lee blitz is completely on the RG.  There is no one other than the DE on that side (the safety or LB playing deep) with Lee blitzing.  The DE is doing a speed rush around the edge, and the RG has nowhere to go with him because he'll be behind him.  Lee comes right at him, and he moves out the way.  The back is there for blitz pickup, especially if there is an overload blitz, but this wasn't the case at call.  If this was a set up where there was a guy that lined up over him, and dropped back into coverage, or if someone else was blitzing off the edge, I'd understand.  But he has no one except a DE picked up by the RT (not well I might add), then he has to step up in the lane and atleast try to slow down Lee.  

The RB does a horrible job at trying to stop Lee, that is true, but he should have had some help from the RG.  My question:  Is the Lee dive legal?  I thought they got rid of the dive at the QBs leg play after Brady got hurt.  Or is that negated because he was tripped?

Alvin, I always appreciate your analysis, but don't you think that teams have preconceived sets to deal with guys like Bosa?  That is who was coming around the edge. I think this is the game where Bosa runs over the RB for the walk off sack

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On May 5, 2016 at 11:31 AM, RoadFan said:

I don't read much into analysis that only shows positives, negative, or excuses in this case.   They are worthless.  I am sure someone could post multiple videos of Hack overthrowing open WRs by 3 steps, flinging the ball recklessly into triple coverage,  taking unnecessary sacks, not seeing open WRs, etc.

I subscribe to the theory that the really good to great QBs raise the level of play around them.  I believe Goff also had inferior talent around him, admittedly not quite as bad as Penn State, but still played mostly good football.  Something Hack cannot say.

And if the Jets truly wanted Hack, why were they so desperate to trade up to #1, #2, or even for Tunsil?  A trade up for Tunsil surely would've cost them the 2nd rounder they used to select Hack.

 

 

 

If they were desperate they would have made the trade. 

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On 5/6/2016 at 11:43 AM, #27TheDominator said:

Alvin, I always appreciate your analysis, but don't you think that teams have preconceived sets to deal with guys like Bosa?  That is who was coming around the edge. I think this is the game where Bosa runs over the RB for the walk off sack

Thanks.  I think the pre-snap read is to double Bosa (prevent the inside move) but his path in accomplishing this is completely wrong.   If his task was to move back to ensure Bosa doesn't go back inside, he moves back at the same rate as the RT, still keeping the barrier formation intact.  Instead, not only does he abandon post, he turns around to run after Bosa, after he's already at the edge, while a blitzer is flying right in his face.  I think this was understandable, if Bosa engaged the RT to the inside, but he didn't, at which point the guard can't do anything.   

The Eagles this year employed what is a very similar outcome to this play against us.  They lined up their defensive ends wide to ensure they were going to rush the outside of tackles.  Then they sent one person on the inside, creating pressure because either both guards or a guard and a center weren't blocking anyone.  They kept a spy on the RB.  The only real way to counter this is either have a dynamic RB that can both rush and catch passes, or have a QB that can run up the middle.  In that game, Fitz didn't run but in future games they adjusted and Fitz ran in some big spots.  In the Eagles game, plenty of examples where Mangold or a guard is keeping formation while not blocking anyone, waiting for a blitzer.  I think this just shows inexperience on behalf of the line.  

The RB in this play probably hates Hackenberg, btw.  Hackenberg cost him a bunch of yards with horrible screen passes throughout his career.  Same guy that went off on Hackenberg in the Northwestern game and got into a shouting match.  

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