Tank every season until we get a Franchise QB?

[Greenseed4]

15 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

Dude. If you haven't seen Used Cars. Do so now! Otherwise you'll regret what you just said FOREVER!

K...but only because of your super ominous use Caps Lock.  

[j4jets]

8 hours ago, BowlesMovement said:

This post has absolutely zero to do with Fitzpatrick, just asking th question to get fans take

I think you were just trying to stir the pot n @Sperm Edwards put it perfectly. You believe Geno starting equals tanking the season whereas Fitz starting equals contending for playoffs (lolololol, Fitz reminds me of Mora). 

Fitz is the more consistent QB of the two. Unfortunately, Fitz is consistently below average n has a great track record of avoiding mistakes such as playoffs. Geno is the wildcard, literally. He can be the key to your next franchise QB, or be the key to playoffs. N it won't cost an arm n a leg. 

[LIJetsFan]

11 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

As Herman Edwards said, "You play to win the game." I hate it when the Jets lose, but I accept it if I feel they played their best. I have seen a good many half efforts over the years from the Jets and that angers me more than the loss, so tanking ANY season is simply out of the question.

Mismanagement is the culprit and tanking can't fix that.  Two recent examples:

1. Tanny's panic Sanchez extension.  Mark was/is a perfectly legit backup and we could of had him for cheap after his rookie contract was up.  With Mark under contact we don't get Fitz and things play out totally differently going forward.  For better or worse, who can say but if not for mismanagement we'd be in a totally different place as a team.

2. The Rex/Mark/Snoopy Bowl fiasco.  If Sanchez starts the season and Geno sits then who can say what might have been right now.  Better or worse, we'll never know but gross mismanagement has opportunity costs that well run franchises don't have to pay.

Is it the owner's fault that our FO has been sucky or is it just the football gods laughing?  Hard to say.  I do believe that Woody has made his best effort.  I think he might have gotten it right this time around.      

 

p.s.: nothing wrong with this topic so please get off the OP's case.

[CrazyCarl40]

4 hours ago, j4jets said:

I think you were just trying to stir the pot n @Sperm Edwards put it perfectly. You believe Geno starting equals tanking the season whereas Fitz starting equals contending for playoffs (lolololol, Fitz reminds me of Mora). 

Fitz is the more consistent QB of the two. Unfortunately, Fitz is consistently below average n has a great track record of avoiding mistakes such as playoffs. Geno is the wildcard, literally. He can be the key to your next franchise QB, or be the key to playoffs. N it won't cost an arm n a leg. 

Do you honestly think this team can make the playoffs with Geno at the helm? Be honest. 

[CrazyCarl40]

7 hours ago, ylekram said:

bowlesmovement vs villain the foe in a no holds barred cage match wwf style. I would pay huge money to see that

joewilly12 with the slam by slam commentary.

jet nut as the special guest referee

epic

Something tells me that Villain would last about 30 seconds before getting winded. 

[Villain The Foe]

18 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Something tells me that Villain would last about 30 seconds before getting winded. 

 Well, I've always been better on my 2nd wind anyway. 

[BowlesMovement]

5 hours ago, j4jets said:

I think you were just trying to stir the pot n @Sperm Edwards put it perfectly. You believe Geno starting equals tanking the season whereas Fitz starting equals contending for playoffs (lolololol, Fitz reminds me of Mora). 

Fitz is the more consistent QB of the two. Unfortunately, Fitz is consistently below average n has a great track record of avoiding mistakes such as playoffs. Geno is the wildcard, literally. He can be the key to your next franchise QB, or be the key to playoffs. N it won't cost an arm n a leg. 

@Sperm Edwards and the rest of the Fitzpatrick hating goons are out of control, nobody can post anything anymore that isn't 100% anti-Fitzpatrick or they are blasted in every direction by the goon crew.

I have said more than once that I don't think this team is a tank-able team, and there is too much talent to get a a top 5 draft pick, regardless of who starts between Geno or Fitzpatrick. I suppose Petty or Hack can suck bad enough to make that happen.

This post had zero to do with Fitzpatrick or Geno, I was curious to see what the take was. I have seen JiF, Sperm and MANY others basically say this team is not a championship team, so nothing else matters. I was only going off of that. I have not posted much regarding Geno or Fitzpatrick lately, because to be honest, I am fkng bored out of my mind by the topic, neither is winning a SB, and neither is the future of this franchise, and way too much time and energy is wasted on the topic. But as I said, the morons on this board have to turn everything into an anti-Geno post, or a pro-Fitzpatrick post, and then gang up like a bunch of teenage girls.

[Sperm Edwards]

17 hours ago, BowlesMovement said:

I don't even want him back anymore, and this season cannot be tanked completely, there is talent on this team, I'm not using this team or this year as an example, just asking a hypothetical?

Fair enough. I just think if he was signed the question wouldn't be asked in the first place.

To answer your original question, the answer is it depends. If faced with what Idzik inherited (massive cap problems but without a wealth of talent), then occasionally you have to just bite the bullet. The only thing saving a season like that was an uninjured Peyton Manning (or similar veteran QB) agreeing to sign here. Absent that, such a situation is a pre-determined rebuilding no matter how much the coaches and players say otherwise. And as sympathetic as I am to that, the reality is a team ends up better off for one year where they tank completely rather than treading water to finish with 6 wins or so. Especially since such a team is usually missing a QB and it's hard to get one with a mid-lower pick (unless a team is willing to trade away 2+ drafts like the Rams/Eagles just did). Even if we had a QB, but little else, look at the bounty received by Tennessee/Cleveland for moving out of a high spot, and pass on a QB they weren't going to draft anyway (the wisdom of Cleveland doing so remains to be seen, but by failing to trade down, it is the effective equivalent of trading up since one way or another they were bypassing on all those other picks to take the QB at #2). But absent the mess Idzik inherited, no, you don't tank the season starting in preseason. Even still, you can sign veterans; just make sure they're veterans who you think will still be worth keeping around 4-5 seasons from now.

In the Jets' situation? In an effort to find a future QB I'm ok with padding the team with shorter term solutions on offense because of the singular importance of bringing along a QB with tons of help around him. I wouldn't do it for Fitz (in case I've been misunderstood for so many months lol), but for Hackenberg (or whomever Maccagnan believes in), yeah I think it's worth it to have that beastly pair of WRs, and also bring in Forte, maybe also bring back Powell (hard to say both because each really did cost us a draft pick), and an upgrade at LT to yet another veteran who's no spring chicken. Why? Because I don't want the excuses given to Sanchez, Geno, etc. If Hackenberg fails, let him fail with every advantage so we don't waste another season giving him a "fair shot" with real talent. Geno stinking it up for most of his first 2 years (save a couple of good games any crappy QB could occasionally put up) was surely influenced by the lack of talent/coaching/friendly-system around him, but that doesn't mean he would even be Fitz-level good with 2015's talent either. It just means in the strictest sense there's an unanswered question, no matter how many think it's known he'd have been awful. What I'm sympathetic to is not wanting to give him - and it would be giving him - a 3rd season to start after he blew what should have been his 3rd season last year. He doesn't deserve it, and he hasn't earned it. Even if he wins a 3-way this year all he's beating out is the gross inexperience and unreadiness of the other two.

What I don't like doing, in the absence of a true, winner-caliber starting QB - and after doing so in spades in 2015, Maccagnan hasn't done it a lot this year - is "investing" in very expensive short-term solution(s) on the defensive side of the ball, where we're not likely to have anything to show for it in January. Specifically, and singularly, this season that's Mo. Everyone likes Mo and - even if there were holes to be found in the extension - every Jets fan would ultimately be happy if he was extended. Spread overpaying him $2M/year more (spread over 4-5 yrs) than he's probably worth to the team just means the GM then can't be so loose with spending $7M or more on 1 year of the next Antonio Cromartie type of dead-end veteran. We can all easily live with that.  If Maccagnan is going to lock him up long term then get it done & don't dick around for 2 offseasons (after another season/offseason Idzik was unable/unwilling to do so himself). But my God, don't hang onto him for 1 more year at $16M - and pass up on whatever draft pick(s) we could have received for him - and then end up with nothing! I understand that it doesn't matter that no one was willing to cough up what every Jets fan and every sports media type swears he's worth; Maccagnan would get killed for accepting anything less than a top 10-15 pick and it doesn't matter that no other team thinks he's worth that and such a pick is and was unavailable/unattainable to us. I know he has to juggle public perception because his own job preservation is a concern that a fan like me doesn't have. The right move for himself doesn't therefore make it the right move for the team. Let's say all we could get was a mid-2nd round pick everyone would scream about in horror. Well that's another good pick - to be used by our GM who was a well-regarded head scout - for a cheap 4 yr player, on top of a $4M/yr upgrade for another FA next yr ($4M x 4 yrs = $16M). Wouldn't it be nice to lock up a $10M/yr FA and have it feel like $6M/yr? That's what these expensive short-term deals cost. It's also in no small part of why I don't like bringing back Fitzpatrick at the dollars already being offered to him, let alone how much more it might grow to when the dust settles. Now if you read all this you're as big a loser as I am. Bigger, in fact.

[BowlesMovement]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Fair enough. I just think if he was signed the question wouldn't be asked in the first place.

To answer your original question, the answer is it depends. If faced with what Idzik inherited (massive cap problems but without a wealth of talent), then occasionally you have to just bite the bullet. The only thing saving a season like that was an uninjured Peyton Manning (or similar veteran QB) agreeing to sign here. Absent that, such a situation is a pre-determined rebuilding no matter how much the coaches and players say otherwise. And as sympathetic as I am to that, the reality is a team ends up better off for one year where they tank completely rather than treading water to finish with 6 wins or so. Especially since such a team is usually missing a QB and it's hard to get one with a mid-lower pick (unless a team is willing to trade away 2+ drafts like the Rams/Eagles just did). Even if we had a QB, but little else, look at the bounty received by Tennessee/Cleveland for moving out of a high spot, and pass on a QB they weren't going to draft anyway (the wisdom of Cleveland doing so remains to be seen, but by failing to trade down, it is the effective equivalent of trading up since one way or another they were bypassing on all those other picks to take the QB at #2). But absent the mess Idzik inherited, no, you don't tank the season starting in preseason. Even still, you can sign veterans; just make sure they're veterans who you think will still be worth keeping around 4-5 seasons from now.

In the Jets' situation? In an effort to find a future QB I'm ok with padding the team with shorter term solutions on offense because of the singular importance of bringing along a QB with tons of help around him. I wouldn't do it for Fitz (in case I've been misunderstood for so many months lol), but for Hackenberg (or whoever Maccagnan believes in), yeah I think it's worth it to have that beastly pair of WRs, and also bring in Forte, maybe also bring back Powell (hard to say both because this year because it really did cost us a draft pick), and an upgrade at LT to yet another veteran who's no spring chicken. Why? Because I don't want the excuses given to Sanchez, Geno, etc. If Hackenberg fails, let him fail with every advantage so we don't waste another season giving him a "fair shot" with real talent. Geno stinking it up for most of his first 2 years (save a couple of good games any crappy QB could occasionally put up) was surely influenced by the lack of talent around him, but that doesn't mean he would even be Fitz-level good with 2015's talent either. It just means in the strictest sense there's an unanswered question, no matter how many think it's known he'd have been awful. What I'm sympathetic to is not wanting to give him - and it would be giving him - a 3rd season to start after he blew what should have been his 3rd season last year. He doesn't deserve it, and he hasn't earned it. Even if he wins a 3-way this year all he's beating out is the gross inexperience and unreadiness of the other two.

What I don't like doing, in the absence of a true, winner-caliber starting QB - and after doing so in spades in 2015, Maccagnan hasn't done it a lot this year - is "investing" in very expensive short-term solution(s) on the defensive side of the ball, where we're not likely to have anything to show for it in January. Specifically, and singularly, this season that's Mo. Everyone likes Mo and - even if there were holes to be found in the extension - every Jets fan would ultimately be happy if he was extended. Spread overpaying him $2M/year more (spread over 4-5 yrs) than he's probably worth to the team just means the GM then can't be so loose with spending $7M or more on 1 year of the next Antonio Cromartie type of dead-end veteran. We can all easily live with that.  If Maccagnan is going to lock him up long term then get it done & don't dick around for 2 offseasons (after another season/offseason Idzik was unable/unwilling to do so himself). But my God, don't hang onto him for 1 more year at $16M - and pass up on whatever draft pick(s) we could have received for him - and then end up with nothing! I understand that it doesn't matter that no one was willing to cough up what every Jets fan and every sports media type swears he's worth; Maccagnan would get killed for accepting anything less than a top 10-15 pick and it doesn't matter that no other team thinks he's worth that and such a pick is and was unavailable/unattainable to us. I know he has to juggle public perception because his own job preservation is a concern that a fan like me doesn't have. The right move for himself doesn't therefore make it the right move for the team. Let's say all we could get was a mid-2nd round pick everyone would scream about. Well that's another good pick - to be used by our GM who was a well-regarded head scout - for a cheap 4 yr player, on top of a $4M/yr upgrade for another FA next yr. Wouldn't it be nice to lock up a $10M/yr FA and have it feel like $6M/yr? That's what these expensive short-term deals cost. It's also in no small part of why I don't like bringing back Fitzpatrick at the dollars already being offered to him, let alone how much more it might grow to when the dust settles. Now if you read all this you're as big a loser as I am. Bigger, in fact.

I stopped reading about half way through so I would not be a loser :), but I pretty much agree  with everything you are saying

[j4jets]

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Do you honestly think this team can make the playoffs with Geno at the helm? Be honest. 

He had 8 wins as a too kid when he was horrendous, I think he can win 10+ if he plays like he has in the last 7 games. So yes, I do believe he can get us to the playoffs. Fitz? Nope. Not in 11 years. Probably not when he's 34 either. 

[CrazyCarl40]

1 minute ago, j4jets said:

He had 8 wins as a too kid when he was horrendous, I think he can win 10+ if he plays like he has in the last 7 games. So yes, I do believe he can get us to the playoffs. Fitz? Nope. Not in 11 years. Probably not when he's 34 either. 

What kind of drugs do you do? Like street or prescription?

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

What kind of drugs do you do? Like street or prescription?

Great response. 

 

Oh, I think Geno has a chance to take us to the playoffs. He won 8 games in his rookie season.  

[Sperm Edwards]

19 minutes ago, BowlesMovement said:

I stopped reading about half way through so I would not be a loser :), but I pretty much agree  with everything you are saying

Ha. Proof you read it to the bottom.

If you skipped over any part it is your loss. It is like a perfect novel, but only half as long.

[ylekram]

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Something tells me that Villain would last about 30 seconds before getting winded. 

lol

[CrazyCarl40]

9 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Great response. 

Oh, I think Geno has a chance to take us to the playoffs. He won 8 games in his rookie season.  

What does 2013 have to do with 2016? The Jets probably don't have a great chance at the playoffs as it is, I'm sure the number is less than 50%. It's probably barely better with Fitz than Geno, but still better. If Geno starts 16 games this season (never going to happen) the Jets probably finish dead last in the division.

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

What does 2013 have to do with 2016? The Jets probably don't have a great chance at the playoffs as it is, I'm sure the number is less than 50%. It's probably barely better with Fitz than Geno, but still better. If Geno starts 16 games this season (never going to happen) the Jets probably finish dead last in the division.

What drugs are you taking? Street or prescription? lol

[rex-n-effect]

No team could sustain itself tanking every year. Fans wouldn't tolerate it. Players and coaches wouldn't want to work for an organization that actively pursues failure every season. Even those first round QBs would avoid the Jets knowing their career would begin (and likely end) with a single year of success with a team built to lose or anything else and being forced to tank the season only to be benched the rest of the contract. If you found that franchise QB you'd take half his career to build a team around him that could win a Super Bowl.  

[Colgateman]

I'd tank this season for Deshaun Watsom

[JustInFudge]

15 hours ago, BowlesMovement said:

Should this just be the strategy? Hopefully Hack or Petty is that guy, but the odds are they are not. So do we let one of them start, rank the season, draft a high QB next year and rinse and repeat until we get one? Each year let all the young QBs fight it out, hoping one emerges as the guy.

Of course the HC and GM will be fired every 2-3 years, and nobody would want to play here until the guy is found.

As fans, would you support the team during this plan? Go to games? Buy gear?

It depends, really. Obviously the decision to tank has to be based on who's available next year.  I'd be perfectly happy going 2-14 if it guaranteed us Watson. 

But tanking last year for Goff and some dude from North Dakota?...no.  That wouldnt be wise. 

 

[Villain The Foe]

47 minutes ago, JiF said:

It depends, really. Obviously the decision to tank has to be based on who's available next year.  I'd be perfectly happy going 2-14 if it guaranteed us Watson. 

But tanking last year for Goff and some dude from North Dakota?...no.  That wouldnt be wise. 

 

Hard to agree with that. If Watson is drafted and he has a bad rookie season the first thing we're going to hear Jets fans say is how stupid he is and how he doesnt process information quickly enough. And it'll come from the same fans who make threads like this suggesting that we tank until we find a QB. 

 

[JustInFudge]

6 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Hard to agree with that. If Watson is drafted and he has a bad rookie season the first thing we're going to hear Jets fans say is how stupid he is and how he doesnt process information quickly enough. And it'll come from the same fans who make threads like this suggesting that we tank until we find a QB. 

 

I dont really care what fans think.

[Villain The Foe]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont really care what fans think.

Generally I agree, yet they speak anyway. 

[RutgersJetFan]

10 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

Ya. It's like renting a VHS of Big Trouble in Little China only to find a copy of Overboard inside the video sleeve.  And after watching twenty minutes of Goldie Hawn's redneck children, I've decided to boycott all Kurt Russell movies for the rest of my life.  

 

Which sucks, cause I never saw Captain Ron.  

That's taking it too far. I can't live the rest of my life without Snake Plisskin and Jack Burton. I don't care what Randall at the video store did to **** with me.

[j4jets]

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

What kind of drugs do you do? Like street or prescription?

Slightly less powerful than the ones used by those that feel Fitz deserves $12mil n gives us the best chance to win. Yeah, best chance to win 6 games maybe. You know, this year's schedule won't be the cheesecake schedule we had last year. 

[Colgateman]

50 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Hard to agree with that. If Watson is drafted and he has a bad rookie season the first thing we're going to hear Jets fans say is how stupid he is and how he doesnt process information quickly enough. And it'll come from the same fans who make threads like this suggesting that we tank until we find a QB. 

 

Just look at Bortles or Manning, or even Cam, a lot of qbs don't do good their rookie year and then put it together in their second 

[Beerfish]

Tanking is a bad thing, the theory that you just need to get that one elite player at a position will make you a big winner is faulty.  not only that it sets in an established loser mentality on your team and you have a high turnover in coaches and gms.

I say this with perfect knowledge being and Edmonton Oiler fan.  (Who actually never once tanked on purpose, they just had the worst owner and front office in all of pro sports.)

 

[Villain The Foe]

6 minutes ago, Colgateman said:

Just look at Bortles or Manning, or even Cam, a lot of qbs don't do good their rookie year and then put it together in their second 

This is true, but I dont believe that rookies having good rookie seasons mean that they are franchise QB's as well. 

Vince Young (rookie probowler)

RG3 (rookie probowler)

At the end of the day you have to develop talent, and with that will come bumpy roads ahead. 

 

I will say though, Cam had a really good rookie season. Its his 2nd best season of his career to be honest. 

[drdetroit]

Depends on the qb.  I wanted to tank for Winston.  Mariota?  No thx

[peebag]

17 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

This nonsense is making the forums unreadable. lol

Yep.  Let's start another Mike "the Rifle" Glennon thread.

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, peebag said:

Yep.  Let's start another Mike "the Rifle" Glennon thread.

Mike Glennon is better than both Fitzpatrick and Geno.

 

And we dont have to listen to moving bowels and tank the season or peebag questioning Glennon's awesomeness. 

 

 

[rillo]

40+ years of tanking 

[ylekram]

4 hours ago, BowlesMovement said:

I stopped reading about half way through so I would not be a loser :), but I pretty much agree  with everything you are saying

how did you stop reading half way thru so you wouldn't be a loser? the loser statement was the last line. lol

truth of the matter is, reading a word of spermys novels makes you a loser

[Greenseed4]

Per the topic, I would rather limp into the playoffs, or even just sniff them in week-12...every year. Than tank for a season.

#truefan. 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, rillo said:

40+ years of tanking 

We even do that wrong. We can't even tank properly.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, ylekram said:

how did you stop reading half way thru so you wouldn't be a loser? the loser statement was the last line. lol

truth of the matter is, reading a word of spermys novels makes you a loser

Loser.