Cut Geno

[NYPaperAirplanes]

These comments are 1 reason why I want Geno to start. There have only been few times I have seen a fanbase have so much contempt and anger for their own player. This is one of them. The hate on Geno here is reminiscent of Vick's hate.

I find it funny how Geno didn't even commit any crimes yet people act like he committed a murder. 

No, because he played bad in only TWO seasons, people believe he will never get better and that he is, for some reason, a horrible human being. And all of this is for playing bad? How can you call yourselves fans?

I feel like I know why SOME feel this way about Geno, but if I say it, people are gonna get offended and say I'm pulling the race card. Smh

[Mike135]

7 minutes ago, NYPaperAirplanes said:

These comments are 1 reason why I want Geno to start. There have only been few times I have seen a fanbase have so much contempt and anger for their own player. This is one of them. The hate on Geno here is reminiscent of Vick's hate.

I find it funny how Geno didn't even commit any crimes yet people act like he committed a murder. 

No, because he played bad in only TWO seasons, people believe he will never get better and that he is, for some reason, a horrible human being. And all of this is for playing bad? How can you call yourselves fans?

I feel like I know why SOME feel this way about Geno, but if I say it, people are gonna get offended and say I'm pulling the race card. Smh

Black QBs matter!

Seriously I suppose you could be right about some, but not most of 'em.  Just don't think they're able to really understand the differences between the 2013/2014 teams and what we had last season.  

They just see stats and their eyes light up.  I think most would be rooting the same way even if Fitz was black.

[NYPaperAirplanes]

3 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Black QBs matter!

Seriously I suppose you could be right about some, but not most of 'em.  Just don't think they're able to really understand the differences between the 2013/2014 teams and what we had last season.  

They just see stats and their eyes light up.  I think most would be rooting the same way even if Fitz was black.

I didn't want to say Geno is hated solely because he's black. It's just some of this hate makes me wonder.

[Mike135]

6 minutes ago, NYPaperAirplanes said:

I didn't want to say Geno is hated solely because he's black. It's just some of this hate makes me wonder.

Understandable.  But then what's Bowles' excuse for not playing Geno once ready last year and for saying Fitz is the starter even though he's not on the team?

I just think he's taking the safe choice (to appease fans and media), but I suppose it could be some rare case of being racist against your own race.  Seems more likely than actually believing Fitz is a legit NFL starter who could get us to the playoff.  Cause that's freakin nuts.

[Rangers9]

22 minutes ago, NYPaperAirplanes said:

These comments are 1 reason why I want Geno to start. There have only been few times I have seen a fanbase have so much contempt and anger for their own player. This is one of them. The hate on Geno here is reminiscent of Vick's hate.

I find it funny how Geno didn't even commit any crimes yet people act like he committed a murder. 

No, because he played bad in only TWO seasons, people believe he will never get better and that he is, for some reason, a horrible human being. And all of this is for playing bad? How can you call yourselves fans?

I feel like I know why SOME feel this way about Geno, but if I say it, people are gonna get offended and say I'm pulling the race card. Smh

Geno played bad in "only" two seasons. They were his only seasons! As for the race card, all Jets fans just wanna win. And our HC is African American and he really wants to win, badly. He chose Fitz over Geno as do his teammates many who are also black. If Bowles thought he had a better chance to win with Geno believe me he would start him. 

[SouthernJet]

6 minutes ago, NYPaperAirplanes said:

I didn't want to say Geno is hated solely because he's black. It's just some of this hate makes me wonder.

do they hate Revis/marshall etc??

I don't care if my QB is a filipino or a Peruvian sheep herder as long as he wins and brings up closer to super bowl. You think Russ Wilson has haters?

In NFL for players love and in MOST cases, NFL attendance, it's all equally related to Winning.

[NYPaperAirplanes]

 

It was simply speculation. So I apologize if it seemed like I was accusing anybody of racism. Not my intention.

[NYPaperAirplanes]

10 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Geno played bad in "only" two seasons. They were his only seasons! As for the race card, all Jets fans just wanna win. And our HC is African American and he really wants to win, badly. He chose Fitz over Geno as do his teammates many who are also black. If Bowles thought he had a better chance to win with Geno believe me he would start him. 

True. I was just thinking out loud, or out on keyboard I guess, lol.

[Rangers9]

Just now, NYPaperAirplanes said:

True. I was just thinking out loud, or out on keyboard I guess, lol.

When I first started seeing this support for Geno I just didn't get it. I thought race could be a part of it. I guess he has his fans, every player esp a Qb does. I just always assumed the guy was unpopular. He's not a player in conversations that I've ever heard anyone speak positively about. 

[Rangers9]

Look Bowles is an experienced coach and a former player. So he knows the ropes around the NFL. If you lose you get fired. So he doesn't plan on losing. So there's no political agenda here with him. He plays the BAP. 

[NYPaperAirplanes]

Just now, Rangers9 said:

When I first started seeing this support for Geno I just didn't get it. I thought race could be a part of it. I guess he has his fans, every player esp a Qb does. I just always assumed the guy was unpopular. He's not a player in conversations that I've ever heard anyone speak positively about. 

Well first, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm optimistic. I believe Geno can improve, and I hold on to this belief because he plays for my team and because they're the Jets so I try to remain happy despite how frustrating the team can be.

Also, like many others, I take in to account the situations he faced in 2013 and 2014 and realize maybe he wasn't as bad as I first thought. 

And I also found Bowles and the teammates have had positive things about him recently so that boosts my hope for success. 

But that's just me.

[Rangers9]

Just now, NYPaperAirplanes said:

Well first, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm optimistic. I believe Geno can improve, and I hold on to this belief because he plays for my team and because they're the Jets so I try to remain happy despite how frustrating the team can be.

Also, like many others, I take in to account the situations he faced in 2013 and 2014 and realize maybe he wasn't as bad as I first thought. 

And I also found Bowles and the teammates have had positive things about him recently so that boosts my hope for success. 

But that's just me.

They aren't going to say negative things about Geno because he's their teammate. And one of Bowles' players. But they've made it very clear. They think Fitz should be the starter. 

[NYPaperAirplanes]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

They aren't going to say negative things about Geno because he's their teammate. And one of Bowles' players. But they've made it very clear. They think Fitz should be the starter. 

Meh. Based on what I read, I do feel like they believe he improved.

[SouthernJet]

4 minutes ago, NYPaperAirplanes said:

Meh. Based on what I read, I do feel like they believe he improved.

maybe so, but there is no question the locker room thinks Fitz should be starter if he returns in time for camp. I doubt you are denying that?

[NYPaperAirplanes]

Just now, SouthernJet said:

maybe so, but there is no question the locker room thinks Fitz should be starter if he returns in time for camp. I doubt you are denying that?

Oh I know that. They have good chemistry with Fitz.

[Villain The Foe]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

They also can't start because it's July.

If you want to scrounge around for semantics to try and save face, I'll beat you silly with those tactics too.

Even if Geno plays twice as good as you debate, we're ****ed.

Save face? Me? You're the one with semantics and hypotheticals about who the actual Starter is, and when you're checked on it you come up with stupid sh*t like "because its July", as if 1st team reps dont happen in July. 

 

You can call it what you want, just dont call Fitz the starter for any team until he's actually signed with one. 

 

[Villain The Foe]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Let not pretend you're argument has any defensible merit, because we both know if it did, you'd sperge on at extended great length in defense of it.  Your decision to avoid it speaks loudly for the invalidity of your core point.

It's simple, you're simply wrong.  Geno (2013) and Fitz (2009,2015 and others) both got jobs due to injury.  Geno (2014) and Fitz (2010,2011,2012) got jobs due to a lack of open competition or meaningful talent brought in to compete against them.  There is no meaningful difference here as you attempted to portray in the originally quoted post, and analysis of this does not create an argument for (or against) Geno, nor an argument for (or against) Fitz on this singular point.

As of today.  

Good pizza should come before most things, on that I'll agree.

My argument had defensible merit, you just disagree with it. 

 

The pizza was good!  

[Warfish]

13 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

The pizza was good!  

Glad to hear it, as one who must suffer the sub-par Pizza of the DC region, you have my jealousy on this point.

[Villain The Foe]

14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Glad to hear it, as one who must suffer the sub-par Pizza of the DC region, you have my jealousy on this point.

Dude, I was surprised. The pizza reminded me of NY Pizza. I went out with co-workers clubbing on Saturday and after I got completely sh*tfaced I stumbled to this new Doner spot in my neighborhood and they make Pizza, and you know NOTHING is better than 5am Pizza (or Doner)! Do you know what a Doner sandwich is? If not its kinda like a Gyro in the States, but tastes better and has a variety of ingredients. Its very popular in Germany but is actually a Turkish dish. Anyway, the first bite immediately reminded me of home. I made sure I got another personal pie today. Ate it with a smile on my face the entire way, and as I was typing to you I was getting cheese oil on the keyboard of my Mac. lol. 

[Integrity28]

34 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Save face? Me? You're the one with semantics and hypotheticals about who the actual Starter is, and when you're checked on it you come up with stupid sh*t like "because its July", as if 1st team reps dont happen in July. 

 

You can call it what you want, just dont call Fitz the starter for any team until he's actually signed with one. 

 

You keep running further and further away from the actual argument. Eventually you'll get far enough out there that maybe nobody will care to recall where and how badly you shat yourself.

You're doing s bit better today. Less emo. It only took what... 4 month to thicken your skin up a touch?

 Surprising too, because if you'regoing to be this wrong, this often... 

[fltflo]

He'd back up the toilet. Other than that he's a useless, mindless, ego maniacal douchebag. I don't care how much potential he has. I don't care if he's never been given 'a fair chance'. I don't care if he was 'winning the job' in training camp last year. I don't care if he has an MVP year.  He's a POS, classless, wannabe who will never amount to anything in the NFL.  He's a child in a man's body and a birdbrain mentality.  He's an embarrassment to this organization and has been Mac's biggest mistake for keeping him on this roster.  He has done absolutely nothing in his 3 years here other than be the butt of NFL analysts jokes and derisive comments.  Why he is on this team is beyond reason.  Regardless, after 2016 it will be the end of any talk about Geno Smith being a starting QB and any ties to the Jets will be severed. You see I'm not a complete pessimist. There's hope and light at the end of the tunnel and it shines after the 2016 season is over and Geno Smith is GONE. 

Does he owe you money ???!

[Villain The Foe]

35 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

You keep running further and further away from the actual argument. Eventually you'll get far enough out there that maybe nobody will care to recall where and how badly you shat yourself.

You're doing s bit better today. Less emo. It only took what... 4 month to thicken your skin up a touch?

 Surprising too, because if you'regoing to be this wrong, this often... 

Derp. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Dude, I was surprised. The pizza reminded me of NY Pizza. I went out with co-workers clubbing on Saturday and after I got completely sh*tfaced I stumbled to this new Doner spot in my neighborhood and they make Pizza, and you know NOTHING is better than 5am Pizza (or Doner)! Do you know what a Doner sandwich is? If not its kinda like a Gyro in the States, but tastes better and has a variety of ingredients. Its very popular in Germany but is actually a Turkish dish. Anyway, the first bite immediately reminded me of home. I made sure I got another personal pie today. Ate it with a smile on my face the entire way, and as I was typing to you I was getting cheese oil on the keyboard of my Mac. lol. 

I'm a Euro, of course I know what Doner is mate

I find in Europe that Doner and Pizza often come from the same place, and is surprisingly excellent.

[Powpow]

6 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

The Jets havent drafted well since way before Idzik was here 

True that homie

[Powpow]

3 hours ago, fltflo said:

Does he owe you money ???!

???

[Villain The Foe]

10 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'm a Euro, of course I know what Doner is mate

I find in Europe that Doner and Pizza often come from the same place, and is surprisingly excellent.

Yes they are. I had my first Doner in 2009, I've been in love ever since!  

[slats]

15 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Look Bowles is an experienced coach and a former player. So he knows the ropes around the NFL. If you lose you get fired. So he doesn't plan on losing. So there's no political agenda here with him. He plays the BAP. 

It's not that simple, and has been discussed around here before - Fitz is the safe choice. If the Jets go 7-9 with Fitz this year, the fans will mostly shrug it off. Same record with Geno and they'll lose their minds. Pro football executives and head coaches are generally a conservative bunch, and make the call less likely to be criticized in the future. Like how the analytics say you should always for for it on fourth down, or always go for two after a TD, but coaches never do it anyway (until someone finally does and everybody else copies him). 

The Jets making some details of the contract public was pure politics. Letting the fans know they've made a more than fair offer that Fitz is refusing to sign. And as it stands, they are holding firm to demanding three years. I think they'll continue to do that, because Fitzpatrick's value isn't how much better he might be than Geno in the starting lineup this year, but how much better he'll serve as an example/mentor to the two kids they drafted. And, IMHO, that's more politics at play with the release of the 3/$24M with $12M in the first year nugget - if Fitz continues to refuse to sign (dumb, again, IMHO), that offer provides them with some cover when they do trot Geno out onto the field. 

[EM31]

21 minutes ago, slats said:

It's not that simple, and has been discussed around here before - Fitz is the safe choice. If the Jets go 7-9 with Fitz this year, the fans will mostly shrug it off. Same record with Geno and they'll lose their minds. Pro football executives and head coaches are generally a conservative bunch, and make the call less likely to be criticized in the future. Like how the analytics say you should always for for it on fourth down, or always go for two after a TD, but coaches never do it anyway (until someone finally does and everybody else copies him). 

The Jets making some details of the contract public was pure politics. Letting the fans know they've made a more than fair offer that Fitz is refusing to sign. And as it stands, they are holding firm to demanding three years. I think they'll continue to do that, because Fitzpatrick's value isn't how much better he might be than Geno in the starting lineup this year, but how much better he'll serve as an example/mentor to the two kids they drafted. And, IMHO, that's more politics at play with the release of the 3/$24M with $12M in the first year nugget - if Fitz continues to refuse to sign (dumb, again, IMHO), that offer provides them with some cover when they do trot Geno out onto the field. 

I agree with most of this.  I would add that the previous GM and coach combination lost their jobs in part because the GM took some short term risks with the aim of obtaining longer term benefits (new coach, cap room, etc.).  John Idzik is gone because of some of those decisions. He is gone because Rex was a millstone around his neck and probably in larger part because he drafted very poorly.  In any event John Idzik is gone and we have to assume that the reasons for are not lost on the new GM/HC.  Playing the long game with Geno at the expense of the short game is a dangerous path in NY media market with this owner.  If the QB situation goes t1ts up with Geno as the starter with then there really is no political cover for them whereas there is at least some political cover if the same happens with the "safe" choice of Fitzpatrick.

If they believe (as I do) that the real answer is "none of the above" then there is far more job security danger in going with Geno than going with Fitz.  Buying job security for whatever the extra few million turns out to be might still be a better choice.

I think your 7-9 estimate with Fitz might even be a bit generous but my own view is generally that we are not a serious playoff threat with either and that we should go with Geno because he may ultimately lead us into a franchise QB drafting spot.

[Rangers9]

27 minutes ago, slats said:

It's not that simple, and has been discussed around here before - Fitz is the safe choice. If the Jets go 7-9 with Fitz this year, the fans will mostly shrug it off. Same record with Geno and they'll lose their minds. Pro football executives and head coaches are generally a conservative bunch, and make the call less likely to be criticized in the future. Like how the analytics say you should always for for it on fourth down, or always go for two after a TD, but coaches never do it anyway (until someone finally does and everybody else copies him). 

The Jets making some details of the contract public was pure politics. Letting the fans know they've made a more than fair offer that Fitz is refusing to sign. And as it stands, they are holding firm to demanding three years. I think they'll continue to do that, because Fitzpatrick's value isn't how much better he might be than Geno in the starting lineup this year, but how much better he'll serve as an example/mentor to the two kids they drafted. And, IMHO, that's more politics at play with the release of the 3/$24M with $12M in the first year nugget - if Fitz continues to refuse to sign (dumb, again, IMHO), that offer provides them with some cover when they do trot Geno out onto the field. 

You're saying "refuse" to sign like he has some kind of legal or moral obligation to accept that contract that you consider to be "generous" We've discussed reasons why it's team friendly and not a good deal for him. I mean in any deal there should be willingness to negotiate esp if one of the parties believe it's unfair. As for Bowles choosing Fitz over Geno, he was playing in his opinion the BAP esp after a good start to the season, beating the Colts (a playoff team in 2014). He is not in the same position as the FO and as a new HC he only wants to win now. If it was such a fair offer then why didn't the Jets disclose all of the details of the contract they are offering: like the last two years. That was only disclosed reportedly by Fitz's agent to clarify their offer. To me it's dumb not to at least offer a counter proposal if for 5 months he hasn't accepted the contract. And it's not in a team's best interests to play such hardball with their starting Qb. Take it or leave it's aren't a smart way to deal with somebody you expect to be a team leader. 

[Big Blocker]

12 minutes ago, EM31 said:

I agree with most of this.  I would add that the previous GM and coach combination lost their jobs in part because the GM took some short term risks with the aim of obtaining longer term benefits (new coach, cap room, etc.).  John Idzik is gone because of some of those decisions. He is gone because Rex was a millstone around his neck and probably in larger part because he drafted very poorly.  In any event John Idzik is gone and we have to assume that the reasons for are not lost on the new GM/HC.  Playing the long game with Geno at the expense of the short game is a dangerous path in NY media market with this owner.  If the QB situation goes t1ts up with Geno as the starter with then there really is no political cover for them whereas there is at least some political cover if the same happens with the "safe" choice of Fitzpatrick.

If they believe (as I do) that the real answer is "none of the above" then there is far more job security danger in going with Geno than going with Fitz.  Buying job security for whatever the extra few million turns out to be might still be a better choice.

I think your 7-9 estimate with Fitz might even be a bit generous but my own view is generally that we are not a serious playoff threat with either and that we should go with Geno because he may ultimately lead us into a franchise QB drafting spot.

I disagree with this and with several of the points in the post you quoted.

Regarding Idzik, while there is something to the notion that with some moves he favored the long term over the short, there are two things wrong with concluding that this was the reason he was fired.  The main reason he was fired was he drafted very badly.  For example he drafted Smith, which was a disastrous move, and then doubled on that move his second draft by failing to pick Bridgewater or Carr because he'd just picked Smith.  But that is only an example of his overall awful drafts.  Second it's not really true that he consistently played the long game, as in the signings of Harvin and Decker (which ftr was imo on Decker the best move he made).  And then the way it played out there was the signing of Vick, which imo was a grossly mismanaged situation.  I would also add not even trying to sign Revis, but imo that was on Woody.

Next I don't think there IS any long game on Smith.  The odds of him ever improving to an acceptable level are so slim as to not be worth considering.

Next I think it absurd both to discount the prospects for the overall season, and to think that Smith would obtain similar results to Fitzpatrick if he was played instead of RF.  That pov is based on nothing, certainly not past performance.

As for the issue of the public perception, I actually think most fans wrongly think the FO has made a fair offer to RF when it has not, and as of now the fans tend more to favor the FO position than RF's.  But that will change if RF is not signed, Smith plays, and the Jets suck.  The reason the FO faces the risk of losing the fanbase at that point is that they will rightly be viewed as having failed to address the Qb situation in an acceptable way this off season.  Add in issues with Wilkerson and the end result will be that this off season will be a failure.  Macc and the FO have a certain amount of goodwill with the fans right now.  But that will quickly change if Smith is the starter and Wilkerson's situation is unresolved.  To be clear Wilkerson's situation will not override a return by RF, if that happens.  But the two together imo will be too much for Macc to overcome.  I'm not predicting that means he will be fired, at least this year.  But he runs that risk.

[slats]

13 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

You're saying "refuse" to sign like he has some kind of legal or moral obligation to accept that contract that you consider to be "generous" We've discussed reasons why it's team friendly and not a good deal for him. I mean in any deal there should be willingness to negotiate esp if one of the parties believe it's unfair. As for Bowles choosing Fitz over Geno, he was playing in his opinion the BAP esp after a good start to the season, beating the Colts (a playoff team in 2014). He is not in the same position as the FO and as a new HC he only wants to win now. If it was such a fair offer then why didn't the Jets disclose all of the details of the contract they are offering: like the last two years. That was only disclosed reportedly by Fitz's agent to clarify their offer. To me it's dumb not to at least offer a counter proposal if for 5 months he hasn't accepted the contract. And it's not in a team's best interests to play such hardball with their starting Qb. Take it or leave it's aren't a smart way to deal with somebody you expect to be a team leader. 

You've said this a million times, saying it 1,000,001 times isn't going to make it true. 

The Jets aren't offering anything else because they're already offering more money than anyone else (if anyone else, in fact, ever offered him anything), and from their perspective -so far- the length of the deal is non-negotiable. The don't see the value in Fitzpatrick for one year as a starter, but they do see the value in Fitzpatrick being an example to the QBs they've drafted for the next three years. It's really that simple. The Jets have the best (only!) offer on the table, and there is absolutely no reason for them to budge. The NFL is a business, Fitzpatrick is smart enough to understand that. Giving QBs contracts based on their feelings is how you wind up spending $50M on Mark Sanchez. 

[Rangers9]

4 minutes ago, slats said:

You've said this a million times, saying it 1,000,001 times isn't going to make it true. 

The Jets aren't offering anything else because they're already offering more money than anyone else (if anyone else, in fact, ever offered him anything), and from their perspective -so far- the length of the deal is non-negotiable. The don't see the value in Fitzpatrick for one year as a starter, but they do see the value in Fitzpatrick being an example to the QBs they've drafted for the next three years. It's really that simple. The Jets have the best (only!) offer on the table, and there is absolutely no reason for them to budge. The NFL is a business, Fitzpatrick is smart enough to understand that. Giving QBs contracts based on their feelings is how you wind up spending $50M on Mark Sanchez. 

Yeah and you've said it a million times too. So we're never going to agree. We'll see what happens over the next month. But nothing wrong with negotiating and all sides have to adjust in a deal. As for a Sanchez type Tanny mistake. He isn't asking for that kind of money or commitment. 

[nyjunc]

11 minutes ago, slats said:

You've said this a million times, saying it 1,000,001 times isn't going to make it true. 

The Jets aren't offering anything else because they're already offering more money than anyone else (if anyone else, in fact, ever offered him anything), and from their perspective -so far- the length of the deal is non-negotiable. The don't see the value in Fitzpatrick for one year as a starter, but they do see the value in Fitzpatrick being an example to the QBs they've drafted for the next three years. It's really that simple. The Jets have the best (only!) offer on the table, and there is absolutely no reason for them to budge. The NFL is a business, Fitzpatrick is smart enough to understand that. Giving QBs contracts based on their feelings is how you wind up spending $50M on Mark Sanchez. 

there was nothing wrong w/ Mark's contract, the problem was we didn't have any talent around Mark.  the situation is different now, now we have the talent for any QB to succeed so why pay Fitz to do what anyone can do?

[Rangers9]

23 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

there was nothing wrong w/ Mark's contract, the problem was we didn't have any talent around Mark.  the situation is different now, now we have the talent for any QB to succeed so why pay Fitz to do what anyone can do?

Even Tannenbaum admitted it was stupid to give him that extension. You know the one that got Tanny fired,

[Rangers9]

37 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

there was nothing wrong w/ Mark's contract, the problem was we didn't have any talent around Mark.  the situation is different now, now we have the talent for any QB to succeed so why pay Fitz to do what anyone can do?

And you can't just win with any Qb.