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Cut Geno


johnnyjet

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49 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I missed the part where I suggested starting Geno Smith for an additional 6-7 years. Or even more than 6-7 games, assuming he still looks no better, before handing the job off to another. If he shows he's still not a regular starter, but wouldn't be so terrible for a stretch in case of an injury to a starter, I'm fine with bringing him back cheap to back up Petty/Hackenberg. If someone else is somehow willing to fork over $3-4M/yr for him after the season, that's already too expensive to match, based on what we have seen so far. Regardless, you forgot to call me a Geno Lover :).

Clearly we aren't winning a SB with Fitzpatrick. Not now, not next year, not ever. I just don't value him the same as others, who want to rob from next year, when we may have a better chance with some development from Petty/Hackenberg (or from acquiring another). When shelling out that kind of money, the player should either be a guy you truly believe will help us win it all right now, should be a serious building block for the future, or will provide on-field help in the development of another (e.g. good veteran starters on offense, around a young QB, to make his adjustment easier). None of that will make a bad QB into a good one, but an easier transition can certainly help, in the same way teams don't throw every rookie onto the field immediately, readiness be damned. If Fitz was closer to the $5M/yr range, then fine. He clearly wants more than double that amount, so it's not fine.

I agree with you about the ceiling for Fitzpatrick although there are always the obligatory Trent Dilfer/Ravens scenarios which often gets thrown around in these kinds of thread arcs. Mediocre QBs can win a Superbowl too doncha know.  Or some such.  There is also the mentor role which I think may be a more compelling argument for keeping Fitzpatrick.

While you did not directly suggest another 6-7 years for Geno you did equate the first ten years of Fitzpatrick to the first three years of Geno.  Since there seems to be little difference between the two of them, the the audience was left to decipher for themselves what exactly you were suggesting with that comparison.  Pay less for the same level of crap with Geno or that since similar crap eventually turned into something decent with Fitzpatrick that the same might hapopen for us with Geno.  The Irish Sweeps stakes ticket if you will.  If the correct inference was latter then 6-7 more years is all we would have to wait for this particular rose to bloom

As far as being a Geno lover I think that is for each man here needs to face their own internal demons and come out of the closet for themselves.... or not.

For myself I would go further than you seem to be going.  I think the current player mix and the schedule to begin the year means that we are likely not in a Trent Dilfer world in 2016.  I think we will get smacked around no matter who our QB is and so I say go with the cheaper one.  The one who is probably still a significantly worse QB.  I think we should seriously plan on having a Prime time TV first pick next year.  To paraphrase a quote from a movie, it will be Geno's last full measure of devotion to the Jets that he helps us to secure that high first round pick.

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4 hours ago, EM31 said:

So another 6-7 years of horrible and he might be able to put together a season of mediocrity in that case.  Why waste the investment of the first three years?

I bet the Bills are pissed that they gave up on Fitz way too soon.

Sarcasm? 

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7 hours ago, EM31 said:

I agree with you about the ceiling for Fitzpatrick although there are always the obligatory Trent Dilfer/Ravens scenarios which often gets thrown around in these kinds of thread arcs. Mediocre QBs can win a Superbowl too doncha know.  Or some such.  There is also the mentor role which I think may be a more compelling argument for keeping Fitzpatrick.

While you did not directly suggest another 6-7 years for Geno you did equate the first ten years of Fitzpatrick to the first three years of Geno.  Since there seems to be little difference between the two of them, the the audience was left to decipher for themselves what exactly you were suggesting with that comparison.  Pay less for the same level of crap with Geno or that since similar crap eventually turned into something decent with Fitzpatrick that the same might hapopen for us with Geno.  The Irish Sweeps stakes ticket if you will.  If the correct inference was latter then 6-7 more years is all we would have to wait for this particular rose to bloom

As far as being a Geno lover I think that is for each man here needs to face their own internal demons and come out of the closet for themselves.... or not.

For myself I would go further than you seem to be going.  I think the current player mix and the schedule to begin the year means that we are likely not in a Trent Dilfer world in 2016.  I think we will get smacked around no matter who our QB is and so I say go with the cheaper one.  The one who is probably still a significantly worse QB.  I think we should seriously plan on having a Prime time TV first pick next year.  To paraphrase a quote from a movie, it will be Geno's last full measure of devotion to the Jets that he helps us to secure that high first round pick.

No I didn't. I didn't equate it, I didn't infer it, and I certainly don't believe it. I said if you are going to make a case for the worst 3-year start to a career being Geno Smith, you wouldn't do it by pointing to Fitzpatrick, who had a far worse 3 year intro. After the initial emergency outings were over, where there was no one else, he wasn't allowed near the field again until his 4th season, for the Bengals, after the starter got injured a month into the season.

I agree with your last paragraph. Frankly, I think it's throwing good money at bad. Yeah there's arguably some value in having him mentor younger guys, but not while he wants their jobs, and certainly not for more than the $24M he's already turned down to date.

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No I didn't. I didn't equate it, I didn't infer it, and I certainly don't believe it. I said if you are going to make a case for the worst 3-year start to a career being Geno Smith, you wouldn't do it by pointing to Fitzpatrick, who had a far worse 3 year intro. After the initial emergency outings were over, where there was no one else, he wasn't allowed near the field again until his 4th season, for the Bengals, after the starter got injured a month into the season.

I agree with your last paragraph. Frankly, I think it's throwing good money at bad. Yeah there's arguably some value in having him mentor younger guys, but not while he wants their jobs, and certainly not for more than the $24M he's already turned down to date.

I thought you were implying it with the comment below.  If not then I withdraw the response.

Quote

No, no. He's one of the worst QBs the NFL has ever seen over his first 3 NFL seasons. There are so few who were worse over that span. Like Ryan Fitzpatrick lol 

Oh and my worst QB ever to start for two years in the NFL observation does not mean I think Geno is the worst QB ever to lace up a pair of boots. It was as much an indictment of the Jets dysfunctional franchise that we were so badly managed and so weak at the QB position that a QB as poor as Geno was permitted to start for longer than anyone should ever be allowed to start.
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35 minutes ago, EM31 said:

I thought you were implying it with the comment below.  If not then I withdraw the response.

Oh and my worst QB ever to start for two years in the NFL observation does not mean I think Geno is the worst QB ever to lace up a pair of boots. It was as much an indictment of the Jets dysfunctional franchise that we were so badly managed and so weak at the QB position that a QB as poor as Geno was permitted to start for longer than anyone should ever be allowed to start.

The fact that fans like you want Fitzpatrick is more pathetic than anything ever Jets related. 

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6 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

The fact that fans like you want Fitzpatrick is more pathetic than anything ever Jets related. 

You have comprehension issues.  I want Geno to start and have said as much many times.  I think we have a legitimate shot at a top-3 pick with Geno at the helm.

What is your excuse for wanting the worst starting QB in the NFL?

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2 minutes ago, EM31 said:

You have comprehension issues.  I want Geno to start and have said as much many times.  I think we have a legitimate shot at a top-3 pick with Geno at the helm.

What is your excuse for wanting the worst starting QB in the NFL?

Geno went 8-8 with a trash roster just a couple years ago

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Just now, drdetroit said:

Geno went 8-8 with a trash roster just a couple years ago

He really was a terrible QB on a team that was otherwise pretty good.  The QB ratings on that season were clear.  I think he was 40th out of QBs with enough starts to qualify.  That means he was not only worse than every starter in the league but also worse than eight or nine of the backups too.

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5 hours ago, EM31 said:

He really was a terrible QB on a team that was otherwise pretty good.  The QB ratings on that season were clear.  I think he was 40th out of QBs with enough starts to qualify.  That means he was not only worse than every starter in the league but also worse than eight or nine of the backups too.

You actually think we had a good roster in 2013?

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5 hours ago, drdetroit said:

You actually think we had a good roster in 2013?

I think Geno made us worse.  Single-handedly much worse.  So yes I think we would have been a wild card  team without him, albeit one where the defense was carrying the water for the offense as it does most years.

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13 hours ago, EM31 said:

I thought you were implying it with the comment below.  If not then I withdraw the response.

Oh and my worst QB ever to start for two years in the NFL observation does not mean I think Geno is the worst QB ever to lace up a pair of boots. It was as much an indictment of the Jets dysfunctional franchise that we were so badly managed and so weak at the QB position that a QB as poor as Geno was permitted to start for longer than anyone should ever be allowed to start.

Fair enough. No worries. 

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If you look objectively at Geno there was no way he should have started in year 1. Personally after 2012 I didn't want to see Mark on the field. So I preferred him over Sanchez (and still do). Idzik should have obtained a vet Qb (he did with Garrard but the guy physically couldn't play) after Mark went down and even earlier. I'm not making this as an excuse for him but it's really a legit excuse for him. And the only one. If Fitz re-signs Geno will most likely see the field in 2016 and for the Jets. You can't not assume an injury for Fitz esp the way he plays. He's just one big hit away from being out for a significant amount of time Or even just a few series in a game.. So you don't cut him. He has experience (29 starts) and is superior right now to Hack and Petty. He gives us our best chance to win after Fitz. 

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12 hours ago, EM31 said:

He really was a terrible QB on a team that was otherwise pretty good.  The QB ratings on that season were clear.  I think he was 40th out of QBs with enough starts to qualify.  That means he was not only worse than every starter in the league but also worse than eight or nine of the backups too.

The team wasn't otherwise pretty good. He was a terrible QB, even by rookie standards, but there were certainly other problems on offense (not the least of which were the receivers). The (non-RB) pass-catcher with the most starts was Jeff Cumberland. Let that sink in. The other receivers were Kerley (who was barely allowed on the field in 2015 despite some questionable depth), Hill, Winslow who couldn't run anymore, Holmes who sucked after his 2012 lisfranc injury, Clyde Gates. His FB was a rookie as well, and while Bohanan was a good pick so late, he wasn't exactly a pro bowl rookie, but still played every game, starting 8. Even his one receiving outlet out of the backfield (Powell, since Goodson barely saw the field), had a double-digit drop rate on catchable passes. Brian Winters and Austin Howard manned 2 of the OL positions - badly, at pass blocking in particular. So did Willie "False Start" Colon and his mountain of drive-killing penalties (only eclipsed by his 2014 total). Brick was in the first noticeable year of his serious decline from his previous baseline.  But hey, we had Nick Mangold.

I don't believe Geno would have had a stellar rookie season even with 10 pro bowlers around him, but come on that was not a team that was otherwise good. Not on offense. So as wholly unready as as bad Geno was as a rookie, the challenge was over before it began with that sorry group around him. A bad QB makes a bad supporting cast even worse, and Geno surely did, but it wouldn't have been good with anyone. Even if Sanchez didn't get injured in that preseason game, he wouldn't have had a good season either. This was a worse offensive roster than 2012, when Sanchez finished with a 13/18 TD:INT ratio which is only nominally worse than Geno's own pathetic ratio in his first NFL action, which itself was almost identical to Sanchez's rookie ratio with an excellent team that further included a relatively impenetrable force of an OL.

All in the past. If he somehow gets the starting gig this year, and sucks yet again, he's all out of excuses (including the schedule, which is no excuse for bad play if one wants to be considered a good QB). Sure I expect any QB to do better against pushovers than against good teams, but if you can't beat good teams, what the hell good is he (or Fitz, for that matter)? 

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5 hours ago, EM31 said:

I think Geno made us worse.  Single-handedly much worse.  So yes I think we would have been a wild card  team without him, albeit one where the defense was carrying the water for the offense as it does most years.

You have no idea how wrong you are

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18 minutes ago, drdetroit said:

You have no idea how wrong you are

Opinions are like some other things everyone has one.  So you are entitled to yours.

Fact: we were 8-8 with the worst "measured" QB play in the league...  40th actually.  Worse than every other starter and 8 or 9 of the backups who had enough starts to play.  Just appallingly bad QB play.  Did i mention how badly the QB played and yet we were 8-8?

What is asinine frankly is assuming that we would not have had a better record than 8-8 with even a "mediocre" (16th) level of QB performance.

Two more wins would have made us a playoff team that year which is the limit of what I said.

As a practical matter the defense was a top 5 or at the least a top 10 unit and our offensive line run blocking and running game were still very good.  When Geno wasn't tossing the ball to players on the other team were were able to move the ball and score points. So it is at least as likely that our receivers looked worse because of the QB they were playing with as it is that these were just terrible receivers.  I am sorry if this conflicts with your narrative.

That was a playoff team without Geno.  Period.  Despite the indifferent set of receivers it was a playoff team.

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Ryan Nassib - QB -  Giants

Eli Manning believes backup Ryan Nassib can be a starting quarterback.

"He's a hard worker, he's smart," Manning said of Nassib. "Just from watching him and how he prepares, how he makes plays in practice, his football mind and ability, there's no reason he can't be a starter." Nassib is entering the final year of his rookie deal and is unlikely to get that starting chance with the Giants. He's been the subject of trade rumors the past two offseasons.
 
Jul 8 - 11:43 AM
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18 hours ago, EM31 said:

He really was a terrible QB on a team that was otherwise pretty good.  The QB ratings on that season were clear.  I think he was 40th out of QBs with enough starts to qualify.  That means he was not only worse than every starter in the league but also worse than eight or nine of the backups too.

LOL, what team do you watch that was pretty good?

That team had nothing.  Especially on offense

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

LOL, what team do you watch that was pretty good?

That team had nothing.  Especially on offense

The team still had a good to very good offensive line and a good to very good run game.  The defense was top 5 and so I think the notion that Geno fans like to toss around that Geno was saddled with total crap on the roster are just that.  Total crap.

We were 8-8 with the worst QB play in the league so it is pretty clear we would have been several games better at least if we had even mediocre QB play.  Give us average QB play and we would have been 10-6 or 11-5 easily.  Easily.  Sorry to burst your bubble.  Maybe we were not a Superbowl team but it was more than a decent squad.

I am sorry if this conflicts with your ridiculous world view and oft repeated false narrative.

The reason we were not better than 8-8 can be traced directly to the brutal play at QB.

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33 minutes ago, EM31 said:

The team still had a good to very good offensive line and a good to very good run game.  The defense was top 5 and so I think the notion that Geno fans like to toss around that Geno was saddled with total crap on the roster are just that.  Total crap.

We were 8-8 with the worst QB play in the league so it is pretty clear we would have been several games better at least if we had even mediocre QB play.  Give us average QB play and we would have been 10-6 or 11-5 easily.  Easily.  Sorry to burst your bubble.  Maybe we were not a Superbowl team but it was more than a decent squad.

I am sorry if this conflicts with your ridiculous world view and oft repeated false narrative.

The reason we were not better than 8-8 can be traced directly to the brutal play at QB.

You're kidding right?  

I love the way you think this through.  We were 8-8 and you hate Geno, therefore the team was good. No one agrees with you but who cares.  You're always right and no one can think differently, they're just ridiculous.  

Ive got ridiculous views?  Only you and Stevie Wonder believe this line of shlt.  Only difference is Stevie doesn't constantly use mindless logic to discredit Geno as a way of pumping up Fitz.  Go back to your ridiculous statements like Geno was the all time worst QB or any of thing you can come up with to keep him from getting a chance.  

2014, was more than a decent squad.  Don't call anyone ridiculous.  

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42 minutes ago, fltflo said:

I will continue to say this every time I see the Fitz/Geno. Debate.

By November there is going to be a lot of crow being served and eaten by many here on this board.

And when the smoke clears we all want the same outcome WINS and a SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONSHIP

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15 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

You're kidding right?  

I love the way you think this through.  We were 8-8 and you hate Geno, therefore the team was good. No one agrees with you but who cares.  You're always right and no one can think differently, they're just ridiculous.  

Ive got ridiculous views?  Only you and Stevie Wonder believe this line of shlt.  Only difference is Stevie doesn't constantly use mindless logic to discredit Geno as a way of pumping up Fitz.  Go back to your ridiculous statements like Geno was the all time worst QB or any of thing you can come up with to keep him from getting a chance.  

2014, was more than a decent squad.  Don't call anyone ridiculous.  

blah blah blah blah blah...

The QB was terrible.  This is measurable.  It was measured in fact.

The team was 8-8 with the worst QB in the league.... This also was measured.... Hence the whole eight and eight thing.

And yet your pea brain sees no logic in the notion that we would have been a better team with a better record if we had even average QB play.

Why am I not astonished Jet Nut?

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1 hour ago, EM31 said:

blah blah blah blah blah...

The QB was terrible.  This is measurable.  It was measured in fact.

The team was 8-8 with the worst QB in the league.... This also was measured.... Hence the whole eight and eight thing.

And yet your pea brain sees no logic in the notion that we would have been a better team with a better record if we had even average QB play.

Why am I not astonished Jet Nut?

A rookie QB coming in and being arguably the worst QB in the league during his rookie season? Okay. 

 

Do you have actual stats (not articles of peoples opinion) that support Geno being the worst QB during his rookie season? 

 

Also, what does Geno's alleged rookie status have to do with today? Why do you live in the Geno past but not the Fitzpatrick past? You're nothing but a one-sided talker, and I'd rather be a pea brain to a one-sided talker than a one-sided talker. 

 

Also, I noticed this thread is on the 1st page....a thread that you constantly right in as well. lol. 

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2 hours ago, EM31 said:

blah blah blah blah blah...

The QB was terrible.  This is measurable.  It was measured in fact.

The team was 8-8 with the worst QB in the league.... This also was measured.... Hence the whole eight and eight thing.

And yet your pea brain sees no logic in the notion that we would have been a better team with a better record if we had even average QB play.

Why am I not astonished Jet Nut?

You're still insisting that the jets were a good team in 2014 and give me a blah, blah, blah? 

Youre just an idiot who will fight until the end of time, who now has changed he argument into they would have been better with better QB play.  No shlt, you're a fu(king genius.  Problem is you're so stupidly arguing as if I think Geno was really good or won games for the Jets.  Can't just accept that the Jets sucked, they lacked talent, especially on the offensive side because you don't want a guy you hate to get even an iota of credit for a single win.  Got it.  

Pea brain, sure, whatever works for you, whatever you think helps make your argument.  

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2 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

A rookie QB coming in and being arguably the worst QB in the league during his rookie season? Okay. 

 

Do you have actual stats (not articles of peoples opinion) that support Geno being the worst QB during his rookie season? 

 

Also, what does Geno's alleged rookie status have to do with today? Why do you live in the Geno past but not the Fitzpatrick past? You're nothing but a one-sided talker, and I'd rather be a pea brain to a one-sided talker than a one-sided talker. 

 

Also, I noticed this thread is on the 1st page....a thread that you constantly right in as well. lol. 

This particular question was about whether or not the Jets team would have been better than 8-8 with a different and better QB performance.  Please stop trying to change the discussion of that question into a "why are you living in the past?".  This is the question at hand.  Nice deflection attempt.

The reason we are having that discussion at all is because Geno supporters like to make two claims both of which are at variance with the facts and rational probability. Firstly that the 2013 team was sh1t (and therefore by implication that Geno was asked to carry a heavy load) AND that Geno was good enough to have an 8-8 season his rookie year (presumably giving Geno credit for carrying that heavy load across the finish line to an 8-8 record).

Both arguments are clearly incorrect.

37th

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-rating-by-total-and-components/2013/

33rd

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000304038/article/quarterback-index-yearend-rankings

All I said and all I have said it that the 2013 team was not even close to being as bad as Geno supporters like to claim and that the 8-8 record despite league-worst QB play should pretty much be end-of-discussion on that topic.  It is like starting 100 meter race ten meters behind everyone else, finishing in mid-pack and then saying that an equal start would not have affected the result in any way.

Are you trying to make the case that a difference in quality of play at the most important position on the team from bottom of the NFL QB-play up to say middle of the pack QB-play would not result in any change the W-L record of the team?  Is that what you are saying here?  Given the intellectual pretzels that have been twisted by Geno supporters it would not come as a surprise.

If citing the record is being a "one-sided talker" then by all means stick to the folks on the one side of this discussion who are comfortable making stuff up, like say for example that the 2013 team was trash and had no talent.

Geno was brutally bad and that impacted the team.  Almost certainly it impacted that team significantly.

 

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

You're still insisting that the jets were a good team in 2014 and give me a blah, blah, blah? 

Youre just an idiot who will fight until the end of time, who now has changed he argument into they would have been better with better QB play.  No shlt, you're a fu(king genius.  Problem is you're so stupidly arguing as if I think Geno was really good or won games for the Jets.  Can't just accept that the Jets sucked, they lacked talent, especially on the offensive side because you don't want a guy you hate to get even an iota of credit for a single win.  Got it.  

Pea brain, sure, whatever works for you, whatever you think helps make your argument.  

We were talking about his rookie year 2013 and the team that went 8-8.  Nice switcheroo there.  That was not a terrible team.  It was not a talentless team.  It was a playoff or borderline playoff team with even marginally competent QB play.

Edited to add

What "you think" about the quality of his play in either of his two years starting is irrelevant.  There are measures of these things and then there is the rating of executives and coaches around the league who are paid big money in large part for their ability to know more than you or me.  Their opinions and the ratings are in agreement and 100% in disagreement with your bizarro take on things.

Geno was brutally bad both years.  End of story.

If a team is 8-8 with brutally bad QB play then it is entirely reasonable to think they might have been 10-6 or better without that burden to carry.

That team was very far from the "trash" that has been asserted here.

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2 hours ago, EM31 said:

We were talking about his rookie year 2013 and the team that went 8-8.  Nice switcheroo there.  That was not a terrible team.  It was not a talentless team.  It was a playoff or borderline playoff team with even marginally competent QB play.

Edited to add

What "you think" about the quality of his play in either of his two years starting is irrelevant.  There are measures of these things and then there is the rating of executives and coaches around the league who are paid big money in large part for their ability to know more than you or me.  Their opinions and the ratings are in agreement and 100% in disagreement with your bizarro take on things.

Geno was brutally bad both years.  End of story.

If a team is 8-8 with brutally bad QB play then it is entirely reasonable to think they might have been 10-6 or better without that burden to carry.

That team was very far from the "trash" that has been asserted here.

I meant his rookie year.   We know we're talking about the 8-8 year, no one changed anything. 

You believe whatever you want.  My bizarro take?  I said he wasn't good, you Fitzsh*ts are so dense you can't even see when someone agrees with you. Doesn't mean the team was talented.  It wasn't, try and find someone in anyone bizarro world who believe that team had talent.  

 

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