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John Idzik's 12-man draft class.


kmnj

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down to three people -two of which will never be more than jags

only guy left pryor and the book is still open on him

all of the izadick apologists must be thrilled  with the results-many times sadly the fans do know better-each year after awful drafts some defend and defend and defend the picks saying these guys are experts and dumb fans no nothing-we are left hearing "he has a plan" "he knows more than the guys sitting at home watching"

I get having Hope but Hope cant surpass reality

 

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17 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Idzik did a good job on the planning and financial side of the team.  He was an atrocious evaluator of talent and drafter.  

Spend nothing isn't really "planning". It's only planning if you spend nothing, and draft like a mother****ing genius. Because he failed at the latter, the former becomes a moot point. We're just luck the former benefited Mac when he got the job.

I really don't think Idzik's intention was to save all this cap for his successor.

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18 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I would say in all seriousness that we would have had a WAY better draft record over the last 10 years if we took fan consensus mocks.  (And that's pretty sad)

Perhaps, but I fear you underestimate how big a portion of our fanbase is guys like.... well, I don't want to name names, but rhymes with schmo schmilly schmelve.

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9 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Spend nothing isn't really "planning". It's only planning if you spend nothing, and draft like a mother****ing genius. Because he failed at the latter, the former becomes a moot point. We're just luck the former benefited Mac when he got the job.

I really don't think Idzik's intention was to save all this cap for his successor.

He didn't spend foolishly and set up our current regime to spend a lot and get some great results.

If people on here had their way we would have 'out dueled' the giants for Dominque Rogers Cromartie and been committed to him, the giants had about the worst pass defense in the league last year.  He could have blown the wad that year, we could have won 7 games and rex would still be our coach.

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2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

He didn't spend foolishly and set up our current regime to spend a lot and get some great results.

If people on here had their way we would have 'out dueled' the giants for Dominque Rogers Cromartie and been committed to him, the giants had about the worst pass defense in the league last year.  He could have blown the wad that year, we could have won 7 games and rex would still be our coach.

Yea, the bold, like I said... I don't think his plan was to provide a bunch of cap space for  his successor. He was going with a build through the draft, and don't spend foolishly philosophy. I get that. Except, he couldn't draft, which makes the non-spending part moot. To me. 

I don't see any point in debating "if he'd done what the fans wanted". Fans are ******* idiots.

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4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

He didn't spend foolishly and set up our current regime to spend a lot and get some great results.

If people on here had their way we would have 'out dueled' the giants for Dominque Rogers Cromartie and been committed to him, the giants had about the worst pass defense in the league last year.  He could have blown the wad that year, we could have won 7 games and rex would still be our coach.

he didn't spend at all outside of decker.  he was saving for the offseason after the 2014 season when he could fire Rex, hire his own coach and then look good by bringing in a ton of talent.

 

I do appreciate him not overspending on a corner that year though even though it was a huge need.  Unfortunately his 12 person draft was a golden opportunity that he blew.

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19 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Spend nothing isn't really "planning". It's only planning if you spend nothing, and draft like a mother****ing genius. Because he failed at the latter, the former becomes a moot point. We're just luck the former benefited Mac when he got the job.

I really don't think Idzik's intention was to save all this cap for his successor.

Yes, and he didn't make one cut that Trader Make hadn't built in to his contracts, that wasn't telegraphed on this board long before he made any moves. There was no genius in his moves on the financial side. Anyone with access to Over The Cap could've told you what he was going to do - and did. 

The only credit John Idzik deserves is for being so completely incompetent at his job that it forced Woody Johnson to finally, absolutely clean house. Even swept the corner where Bradway was hiding for too many years. 

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2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Yea, the bold, like I said... I don't think his plan was to provide a bunch of cap space for  his successor. He was going with a build through the draft, and don't spend foolishly philosophy. I get that. Except, he couldn't draft, which makes the non-spending part moot. To me. 

I don't see any point in debating "if he'd done what the fans wanted". Fans are ******* idiots.

he sabotaged his HC b/c he wanted him gone.  if we didn't finish string in '13 and he was allowed to fire Rex he would have started spending in 2014. he wanted rex gone and sacrificed a season to do it but had no idea he'd be sacrificing his job as well.

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There is a consistent theme here:  Terry Bradway and his cronies were in charge of scouting, and they completely checked out.   They were not finding anyone.

The Jets found good players that Mangini or even Rex vouched for, and Tanny was decent at managing the cap and working with Rex and Mangini to sign/buy FAs but push some of the ultimate cost down the road.

Idzik did not know enough about talent to override/supplement the Scouting Department.  Woody would not let him replace the Scouts right away because he did not want to eat the contracts.  Idzik thought he had a long-term commitment, but when he completely whiffed on CB and WR and the team collapsed, he was done.

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38 minutes ago, kmnj said:

sadly if the fans had a vote we would have had marino and sapp for starters-I was at those drafts and EVERYBODY wanted them over our picks

 

37 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I would say in all seriousness that we would have had a WAY better draft record over the last 10 years if we took fan consensus mocks.  (And that's pretty sad)

I always said if we simply used the "Next best Player" model of Kiper, we would have done better.

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2 minutes ago, slats said:

Yes, and he didn't make one cut that Trader Make hadn't built in to his contracts, that wasn't telegraphed on this board long before he made any moves. There was no genius in his moves on the financial side. Anyone with access to Over The Cap could've told you what he was going to do - and did. 

The only credit John Idzik deserves is for being so completely incompetent at his job that it forced Woody Johnson to finally, absolutely clean house. Even swept the corner where Bradway was hiding for too many years. 

Bingo.

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2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he sabotaged his HC b/c he wanted him gone.  if we didn't finish string in '13 and he was allowed to fire Rex he would have started spending in 2014. he wanted rex gone and sacrificed a season to do it but had no idea he'd be sacrificing his job as well.

This line of thinking is stupid.

Top jobs in the NFL are too sparse for this type of thing. It would make a nice plot for a TV show though. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

He didn't spend foolishly and set up our current regime to spend a lot and get some great results.

If people on here had their way we would have 'out dueled' the giants for Dominque Rogers Cromartie and been committed to him, the giants had about the worst pass defense in the league last year.  He could have blown the wad that year, we could have won 7 games and rex would still be our coach.

The other thing I liked was that he didn't treat compensatory picks like they weren't really draft picks. When the dust settles, we will have burned a 4th round pick for the privilege of signing Jarvis Jenkins to a backup contract for a year or two. 

That non-wastefulness all went away once he felt his job was in jeopardy, though, and he then spent foolishly on taking over Harvin's ridiculous deal (not to mention trading a draft pick for that privilege as well) and extending Kerley. Both in the same week I think, to show his boss that we did have a full WR corps for 2015 even after he whiffed so badly in the '14 draft.

I think it was good planning but poor execution, as you say.

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21 minutes ago, slats said:

The only credit John Idzik deserves is for being so completely incompetent at his job that it forced Woody Johnson to finally, absolutely clean house. Even swept the corner where Bradway was hiding for too many years. 

Totally correct and I'd go one step further. It also forced Woody to look in the mirror and realize he was part of the problem.  No Wolf and Casserly without Idzik...

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45 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Spend nothing isn't really "planning". It's only planning if you spend nothing, and draft like a mother****ing genius. Because he failed at the latter, the former becomes a moot point. We're just luck the former benefited Mac when he got the job.

I really don't think Idzik's intention was to save all this cap for his successor.

Completely agree.  I've never understood some people being so enamored with what Idzik did to clear up the cap space.  All he did is cut a bunch of players with big contracts, and then do absolutely nothing to replace them.  Any idiot who understands basic math could have done that, regardless if they had ever even heard of football before.

Credit goes out to a GM when they fix their team's bad cap situation without sacrificing the entire team in the process.  That means freeing up cap space while still allowing your team to be competent and/or progressing.  Flushing the entire team down the toilet isn't a talent.  Every team in the league could be swimming in cap space if they just went ahead and cut all of their most expensive players, but it's funny how you don't see teams in such a rush to do that.

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28 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Unfortunately his 12 person draft was a golden opportunity that he blew.

It's freaking tragic is what it is. Stayed away from true/full (non-cut) UFAs so he could get the full gamut of 4 comp picks, in a crazy-deep draft = good. That he used them all in 1 draft, and used them on the stiffs he did, is just so awful. He could have built half a starting offense or defense in 1 draft, plus some depth. 

Even one of the picks that did pan out is kind of meh anyway (Pryor). I think he's terrific, but a safety in round 1? The position is too cheap and easy to fill in FA to burn a mid-1st round pick on a rookie, with a roster that had needs everywhere except on the DL. Unless he turns into an every-year all pro safety that would cost 8 figures to replace (if one was even available), I think the position itself is poor value there. Two of the last 3 drafts we've taken cheap-salary positions in the top 20. These guys should be great, not merely good, to justify that IMO. Hopefully it happens. Also hopefully we don't complete the trifecta of cheap-position drafting in round 1 by using our 1st pick on a TE in 2017.

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Just now, Bleedin Green said:

Completely agree.  I've never understood some people being so enamored with what Idzik did to clear up the cap space.  All he did is cut a bunch of players with big contracts, and then do absolutely nothing to replace them.  Any idiot who understands basic math could have done that, regardless if they had ever even heard of football before.

Credit goes out to a GM when they fix their team's bad cap situation without sacrificing the entire team in the process.  That means freeing up cap space while still allowing your team to be competent and/or progressing.  Flushing the entire team down the toilet isn't a talent.  Every team in the league could be swimming in cap space if they just went ahead and cut all of their most expensive players, but it's funny how you don't see teams in such a rush to do that.

Yup.

I'll be the first to admit I defended Idzik's "philosophy" ardently, too. Build through the draft, spend wisely is the winning formula. I would defend that approach every day... however, you have to DO it. All he did was give the approach lip service. Which became clear when the draft rolled around.

Either way, he's the GM equivalent of the Brett Favre year. A catalyst for getting rid of the bigger problems we've got.

  • Favre helped usher out the Pennington era, and then the Mangini era.
  • Idzik helped end the Rex era.

We're better off as a result, but damn if this team doesn't pick the slowest, most painful path... 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's freaking tragic is what it is. Stayed away from true/full (non-cut) UFAs so he could get the full gamut of 4 comp picks, in a crazy-deep draft = good. That he used them all in 1 draft, and used them on the stiffs he did, is just so awful. He could have built half a starting offense or defense in 1 draft, plus some depth. 

Even one of the picks that did pan out is kind of meh anyway (Pryor). I think he's terrific, but a safety in round 1? The position is too cheap and easy to fill in FA to burn a mid-1st round pick on a rookie, with a roster that had needs everywhere except on the DL. Unless he turns into an every-year all pro safety that would cost 8 figures to replace (if one was even available), I think the position itself is poor value there. Two of the last 3 drafts we've taken cheap-salary positions in the top 20. These guys should be great, not merely good, to justify that IMO. Hopefully it happens. Also hopefully we don't complete the trifecta of cheap-position drafting in round 1 by using our 1st pick on a TE in 2017.

The only point I would add about Pryor is that he probably fits Bowles' system really well and we may see him turn into a really productive player.  Not that Idzik deserves any credit for that, but it may turn out to be a pretty good pick when all is said and done.

 

 

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I remember when everyone was so excited that we had 12 draft picks and were going to be able to add an infusion on youth to this team. Man what a disaster that was. The Idzik years are such a bad mark on our team. Especially since we've been fairly successful (SB nothwithstanding) since Parcells took over in 1997.

 

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4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's freaking tragic is what it is. Stayed away from true/full (non-cut) UFAs so he could get the full gamut of 4 comp picks, in a crazy-deep draft = good. That he used them all in 1 draft, and used them on the stiffs he did, is just so awful. He could have built half a starting offense or defense in 1 draft, plus some depth. 

Even one of the picks that did pan out is kind of meh anyway (Pryor). I think he's terrific, but a safety in round 1? The position is too cheap and easy to fill in FA to burn a mid-1st round pick on a rookie, with a roster that had needs everywhere except on the DL. Unless he turns into an every-year all pro safety that would cost 8 figures to replace (if one was even available), I think the position itself is poor value there. Two of the last 3 drafts we've taken cheap-salary positions in the top 20. These guys should be great, not merely good, to justify that IMO. Hopefully it happens. Also hopefully we don't complete the trifecta of cheap-position drafting in round 1 by using our 1st pick on a TE in 2017.

Similar to what Jax did.

Agreed on Pryor, he's good - but sh*t, I don't think we lose much without him and plugging it a guy like Rontez Miles. Frankly.

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1 minute ago, nycdan said:

The only point I would add about Pryor is that he probably fits Bowles' system really well and we may see him turn into a really productive player.  Not that Idzik deserves any credit for that, but it may turn out to be a pretty good pick when all is said and done.

 

 

The subject is about Idzik's draft class, but Idzik shouldnt receive any credit if Pryor ends up being a player? I dont understand. How does Idzik get the credit for a nice portion of his picks being cut by Macc, but shouldnt deserve credit for a guy who looks like a gamer? 

 

C'mon, criticize the man, but dont hate on him. 

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45 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he didn't spend at all outside of decker.  he was saving for the offseason after the 2014 season when he could fire Rex, hire his own coach and then look good by bringing in a ton of talent.

 

I do appreciate him not overspending on a corner that year though even though it was a huge need.  Unfortunately his 12 person draft was a golden opportunity that he blew.

No disputing that last line that draft should have set us up nicely starter and depth wise for a number of years.  In the end that is what makes any gm successful drafting and signing talent.  Some guys have much longer leashes because they have HOF Qb's that make them relevant for years and covers for mistakes.

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1 minute ago, nycdan said:

The only point I would add about Pryor is that he probably fits Bowles' system really well and we may see him turn into a really productive player.  Not that Idzik deserves any credit for that, but it may turn out to be a pretty good pick when all is said and done.

 

 

I don't care where he fits: he's a safety that doesn't have CB-like coverage skills. Pick one up in FA for $6M per, and instead draft a $10-20M position inside the top 20. Don't draft the $6M/yr position player then spend $10-20M/yr on the FA.

Granted each person is an individual and is not a generic safety. And if Pryor becomes a perennial all star then it IS good value there since such a safety would cost a good $10M/yr himself (plus we get him much cheaper for a few really good seasons before he is at that level). Hopefully that's what happens. 

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1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't care where he fits: he's a safety that doesn't have CB-like coverage skills. Pick one up in FA for $6M per, and instead draft a $10-20M position inside the top 20. Don't draft the $6M/yr position player then spend $10-20M/yr on the FA.

Granted each person is an individual and is not a generic safety. And if Pryor becomes a perennial all star then it IS good value there since such a safety would cost a good $10M/yr himself (plus we get him much cheaper for a few really good seasons before he is at that level). Hopefully that's what happens. 

The bold: I talked a ton about this philosophy around draft time, and it's amazing to me how hard it is to get people to understand it.

 

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6 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Similar to what Jax did.

Agreed on Pryor, he's good - but sh*t, I don't think we lose much without him and plugging it a guy like Rontez Miles. Frankly.

Kind of what I felt about Lee. He looks like he'll be a good player. But couldn't we have picked up a Trevathan and then used the #20 pick to get a guy who doesn't cost a mere $6M/yr? He was good enough to start on a beastly 2015 Denver defense.

Like Pryor, hopefully Lee turns into an every-year allstar and makes me eat my words.

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Idzik's plan certainly would have been great if he had the planning and management skills to execute his vision. It seems the plan was to suck for 2013 and 2014 with a big push in 2015 to spend the conserved cash from the prior years. All those 2014 picks would have a year to develop and after two years he could have easily ditched Rex. We would have a big group of young players and the cash to fill in the gaps out of free agency and trades. The biggest problem was Idzik didn't ditch the scouting department in 2013 after the draft and they fed him trash both years.

A lesser problem, although significant and related to the draft errors, is that he hitched his wagon to Geno. Here was a guy who was supposed to be first round talent that fell to the second and should have been picked up and treated as a project, like Hackenburg. Instead he ended up starting on a team filled with trash and never developed. Once Sanchez was cut and no serious effort was made to challenge Geno for the starting role, Idzik's fate became tied to Geno's performance because after Geno there wasn't another QB on the roster to lead the offense. 

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6 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

The bold: I talked a ton about this philosophy around draft time, and it's amazing to me how hard it is to get people to understand it.

 

It's things like this that nibble at the cap, despite so many shrugging it off as nothing. Over merely the first 3 years of a new FA contract, that difference is a good $20M. It would have been nice if this team had another $20M this past offseason, no? 

Like I've said twice already, hopefully these two both are so good they're well worth their draft status and I eat my words. History suggests it's a long shot, though. In fact, neither may be worth the price of the 5th year team option when that day comes.

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