JustInFudge Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, dbatesman said: We should make The Fans our GM If you let me draft our team in 2013 and 2014, we'd have a handful of pro-bowl caliber players on this roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, JiF said: If you let me draft our team in 2013 and 2014, we'd have a handful of pro-bowl caliber players on this roster. Me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 21 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said: Kind of what I felt about Lee. He looks like he'll be a good player. But couldn't we have picked up a Trevathan and then used the #20 pick to get a guy who doesn't cost a mere $6M/yr? He was good enough to start on a beastly 2015 Denver defense. Like Pryor, hopefully Lee turns into an every-year allstar and makes me eat my words. I advocated signing Trevathan. Not sure they'd be used the same way, but I get what you're saying. It's hard with the moneybacker position, because no real premise has been set for positional valuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 35 minutes ago, Integrity28 said: Yup. I'll be the first to admit I defended Idzik's "philosophy" ardently, too. Build through the draft, spend wisely is the winning formula. I would defend that approach every day... however, you have to DO it. All he did was give the approach lip service. Which became clear when the draft rolled around. Either way, he's the GM equivalent of the Brett Favre year. A catalyst for getting rid of the bigger problems we've got. Favre helped usher out the Pennington era, and then the Mangini era. Idzik helped end the Rex era. We're better off as a result, but damn if this team doesn't pick the slowest, most painful path... Perfect comparison, and just like Favre, I certainly don't have a real Jets-level of hatred for Idzik, but he similarly deserves little praise other than it forcing something to be done that these idiots should have done long before that. Agree that the philosophy makes plenty of sense, but when you fail miserably at executing it, that isn't really worth a damn thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Integrity28 said: This line of thinking is stupid. Top jobs in the NFL are too sparse for this type of thing. It would make a nice plot for a TV show though. no one would think they wouldn't get 3 years as a GM. he thought he'd be able to get to work after 2014, he was saving for a future he never had the chance to oversee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Just now, nyjunc said: no one would think they wouldn't get 3 years as a GM. he thought he'd be able to get to work after 2014, he was saving for a future he never had the chance to oversee. lol, okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Just now, Integrity28 said: lol, okay you can dismiss it all you want, the proof is in what he did. he wanted Rex gone after 2013, he didn't have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blocker Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 29 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said: Idzik's plan certainly would have been great if he had the planning and management skills to execute his vision. It seems the plan was to suck for 2013 and 2014 with a big push in 2015 to spend the conserved cash from the prior years. All those 2014 picks would have a year to develop and after two years he could have easily ditched Rex. We would have a big group of young players and the cash to fill in the gaps out of free agency and trades. The biggest problem was Idzik didn't ditch the scouting department in 2013 after the draft and they fed him trash both years. A lesser problem, although significant and related to the draft errors, is that he hitched his wagon to Geno. Here was a guy who was supposed to be first round talent that fell to the second and should have been picked up and treated as a project, like Hackenburg. Instead he ended up starting on a team filled with trash and never developed. Once Sanchez was cut and no serious effort was made to challenge Geno for the starting role, Idzik's fate became tied to Geno's performance because after Geno there wasn't another QB on the roster to lead the offense. Hm, I fear you are getting close to this defense of Smith position that focused on him starting as a huge problem. I don't think any kind of different handling was going to make things better for Smith. Sitting on the bench was not going to improve his ability to read pass defenses and have a better feel for the pocket and where he is on the field. Nor would it have made him more mature. Idzik's major drafting errors did concern Smith, however, and on that I agree. Picking him in the first place, then passing on a David Carr in the next draft because he was all in on Smith - that combo right there was enough to get him fired in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detectivekimble Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Beerfish said: He didn't spend foolishly and set up our current regime to spend a lot and get some great results. If people on here had their way we would have 'out dueled' the giants for Dominque Rogers Cromartie and been committed to him, the giants had about the worst pass defense in the league last year. He could have blown the wad that year, we could have won 7 games and rex would still be our coach. He tried, but he even bungled that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bealeb319 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, nyjunc said: he sabotaged his HC b/c he wanted him gone. if we didn't finish string in '13 and he was allowed to fire Rex he would have started spending in 2014. he wanted rex gone and sacrificed a season to do it but had no idea he'd be sacrificing his job as well. Pretty sure he was able to gather that after the first plane flew over head with the Fire John Idzik banner, he had time to fix it and his attempt was Percy Harvin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 minute ago, bealeb319 said: Pretty sure he was able to gather that after the first plane flew over head with the Fire John Idzik banner, he had time to fix it and his attempt was Percy Harvin. the plane didn't do it, his rambling press conference did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 59 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said: The subject is about Idzik's draft class, but Idzik shouldnt receive any credit if Pryor ends up being a player? I dont understand. How does Idzik get the credit for a nice portion of his picks being cut by Macc, but shouldnt deserve credit for a guy who looks like a gamer? C'mon, criticize the man, but dont hate on him. Perhaps I was too harsh. My thought was that if Bowles unlocks Pryor's peak talent, that's not quite the same since he was drafted to fit into Rex's schemes. Regardless, you make a fair point and I retract my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 59 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said: I don't care where he fits: he's a safety that doesn't have CB-like coverage skills. Pick one up in FA for $6M per, and instead draft a $10-20M position inside the top 20. Don't draft the $6M/yr position player then spend $10-20M/yr on the FA. Granted each person is an individual and is not a generic safety. And if Pryor becomes a perennial all star then it IS good value there since such a safety would cost a good $10M/yr himself (plus we get him much cheaper for a few really good seasons before he is at that level). Hopefully that's what happens. Tough to make that an absolute statement without the context of who was available. Some very good players went just before our pick. Not sure there were really that many 'better' choices in premium positions at that point. You could say Jason Verrett turned out the best of the next 10 picks but he wasn't even the next CB taken. Johnny Manziel was on the board in a premium position. Glad we didn't go there. Sometimes, the draft dictates to the team. Sure I'd have like a stud CB or OLB at that pick, but I'm not going to be disappointed if we get a 10-year starter at Safety with the 18th pick any more than I regret the Mangold pick at 29 all those years ago. Put another way, I'll take the star Safety (if that's what he becomes) over the JAG OLB or DE in that situation and call it a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 44 minutes ago, nyjunc said: you can dismiss it all you want, the proof is in what he did. he wanted Rex gone after 2013, he didn't have a choice. No dude, that's not proof. That's a narrative you've built out of the outcomes. If Geno was awesome, and all those other draft picks hit, then you've got a beast team... and him still in a job. Nothing about what you're saying makes a lick of sense, if you weigh it against other possible outcomes of his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, Integrity28 said: No dude, that's not proof. That's a narrative you've built out of the outcomes. If Geno was awesome, and all those other draft picks hit, then you've got a beast team... and him still in a job. Nothing about what you're saying makes a lick of sense, if you weigh it against other possible outcomes of his actions. but geno wasn't awesome and one of the first ways he tried to push Rex out was by pressuring him to start a rookie he drafted that wasn't readt rather than starting the guy rex wanted to start, I don't disagree, it doesn't make a lot of sense but that's how you only get 2 years as a GM in this league and will never get another shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 26 minutes ago, nycdan said: Tough to make that an absolute statement without the context of who was available. Some very good players went just before our pick. Not sure there were really that many 'better' choices in premium positions at that point. You could say Jason Verrett turned out the best of the next 10 picks but he wasn't even the next CB taken. Johnny Manziel was on the board in a premium position. Glad we didn't go there. Sometimes, the draft dictates to the team. Sure I'd have like a stud CB or OLB at that pick, but I'm not going to be disappointed if we get a 10-year starter at Safety with the 18th pick any more than I regret the Mangold pick at 29 all those years ago. Put another way, I'll take the star Safety (if that's what he becomes) over the JAG OLB or DE in that situation and call it a win. Not really a relevant comparison, since you don't know that you're more likely to get a JAG at OLB or DE than at S. And if value isn't there, then trade up or trade back. That's why such things are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 9 minutes ago, nyjunc said: but geno wasn't awesome and one of the first ways he tried to push Rex out was by pressuring him to start a rookie he drafted that wasn't readt rather than starting the guy rex wanted to start, I don't disagree, it doesn't make a lot of sense but that's how you only get 2 years as a GM in this league and will never get another shot. Oy. I'm not explaining this to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 3 hours ago, dbatesman said: We should make The Fans our GM I'd just like to go on record (again) stating I would have gone Warmack and Eifert, Err Swearinger (but whatever) and Allen in that draft. ***coughs ****coughs! ****coughs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Integrity28 said: Yup. I'll be the first to admit I defended Idzik's "philosophy" ardently, too. Build through the draft, spend wisely is the winning formula. I would defend that approach every day... however, you have to DO it. All he did was give the approach lip service. Which became clear when the draft rolled around. Either way, he's the GM equivalent of the Brett Favre year. A catalyst for getting rid of the bigger problems we've got. Favre helped usher out the Pennington era, and then the Mangini era. Idzik helped end the Rex era. We're better off as a result, but damn if this team doesn't pick the slowest, most painful path... He also did an off with the bandaid fast instead of slowly peeling it off by extending and renegotiating bad contracts like Tannenbaum even admitted he would have done. If you're going to have a non-playoff year, at least have something to show for it (cleaned the ledger of so much red dead space to allow future flexibility). Great plan, but ultimately he still had to deliver and didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 29 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said: He also did an off with the bandaid fast instead of slowly peeling it off by extending and renegotiating bad contracts like Tannenbaum even admitted he would have done. If you're going to have a non-playoff year, at least have something to show for it (cleaned the ledger of so much red dead space to allow future flexibility). Great plan, but ultimately he still had to deliver and didn't. The combination of ******* up the draft to render the contractual efforts moot, and the infighting between him and Rex. Glad they were both shown the door. I don't know why anyone at this juncture would defend either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, Integrity28 said: The combination of ******* up the draft to render the contractual efforts moot, and the infighting between him and Rex. Glad they were both shown the door. I don't know why anyone at this juncture would defend either of them. Those first two seasons under Rex were magical. Everything he's done since then has gone the other way, especially including last year in BUF. I think his next gig is as a DC somewhere...as soon as next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sourceworx Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Idzik's bungling of the 2014 draft is borderline criminal. So much talent that this team completely missed out on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 13 minutes ago, sourceworx said: Idzik's bungling of the 2014 draft is borderline criminal. So much talent that this team completely missed out on. Everyone points to the depth of the WR position, but there were QBs and RBs to be had also. Just a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brown Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Integrity28 said: Spend nothing isn't really "planning". It's only planning if you spend nothing, and draft like a mother****ing genius. Because he failed at the latter, the former becomes a moot point. We're just luck the former benefited Mac when he got the job. I really don't think Idzik's intention was to save all this cap for his successor. How come folks don't get this!???? One can't be looked at in isolation. Those bad picks aren't cost free!! Get it!!! You spend funds on a guy you shouldn't that means you can't spend money on a guy you should!!! His evaluations were so atrocious that even when he was fired he thought that he had given the Jets enough talent to " win a SB" And before we start saying silly stuff no not every draft pick is going to work out but None!!! Come on now!!! The idea that you could have fans have a straw poll and do better than the GM of a major market team is embarrassing and a disgrace!! Idzik was awful and yet we still have folks indirectly defending him. Idzik!! Good Grief!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers9 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Mac's first draft in 2015 only 2 guys out of 6 hit the field (and one was Devin Smith) and he cut his last two picks. Hopefully Deion Simon who made the team this year hangs around and contributes. NFL careers aren't that long esp for higher draft picks. And even after they make a team if they later have vet status they are the first players cut. Because of salary considerations. An NFL team will take a rookie over a vet if they have a choice. Let's see how this plays out with that 2014 Jets draft and where the chips fall. Some of these guys like Jeremiah George and Brandon Dixon have been on NFL teams regular season and having a 2 year career is not that far below average for a fringe player. And sometime during 2016 their careers could continue. Same for Tommy Bohanon. How's about not blaming an org or a player for being injured and saying that guy is crap when it's not their fault. Every single guy drafted by Idzik in 2013 has had an NFL career even William Campbell who is now a FA but has been on 3 practice squads. Sometimes it takes a few years for a player to really make it. As for the 2014 draft most of these late draft picks made teams. You can go over every single team in the NFL and evaluate their drafts and you'll see that later picks are often no longer on the team. Every single pick in 2014 even Tajh Boyd ended up at least on a PS and most of those guys played regulation games in the NFL. And Jace Amaro is on the Titans. Hey look ii the media hates somebody like they did Idzik I'm going to think twice before I kill the guy. If they despise him he can't be all that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMagicRat Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 7 minutes ago, Rangers9 said: Mac's first draft in 2015 only 2 guys out of 6 hit the field (and one was Devin Smith) and he cut his last two picks. Hopefully Deion Simon who made the team this year hangs around and contributes. NFL careers aren't that long esp for higher draft picks. And even after they make a team if they later have vet status they are the first players cut. Because of salary considerations. An NFL team will take a rookie over a vet if they have a choice. Let's see how this plays out with that 2014 Jets draft and where the chips fall. Some of these guys like Jeremiah George and Brandon Dixon have been on NFL teams regular season and having a 2 year career is not that far below average for a fringe player. And sometime during 2016 their careers could continue. Same for Tommy Bohanon. How's about not blaming an org or a player for being injured and saying that guy is crap when it's not their fault. Every single guy drafted by Idzik in 2013 has had an NFL career even William Campbell who is now a FA but has been on 3 practice squads. Sometimes it takes a few years for a player to really make it. As for the 2014 draft most of these late draft picks made teams. You can go over every single team in the NFL and evaluate their drafts and you'll see that later picks are often no longer on the team. Every single pick in 2014 even Tajh Boyd did ended up at least on a PS and most of those guys played regulation games in the NFL. And Jace Amaro is on the Titans. Hey look ii the media hates somebody like they did Idzik I'm going to think twice before I kill the guy. If they despise him he can't be all that bad. Three players hit the field from the class last year, Mauldin was one of them. And while Simon did get cut, keep in mind we had a ton of depth last year at the DL and was basically a practice squad candidate as soon as we drafted him. He spent a year on the PS and now he can contribute. That's good for a seventh round pick. The big deal about Idzik's picks is that he had 12 of them and minus Q and Pryor, they have done little to nothing. Not even quality backups. It would be silly to think that all of his picks would be studs, or even average players, but to have basically nothing was the inexcusable part. If some of Idzik's picks were more like Simon (or what we hope he will be), then people would be a lot less upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack48 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 7 hours ago, kmnj said: down to three people -two of which will never be more than jags only guy left pryor and the book is still open on him all of the izadick apologists must be thrilled with the results-many times sadly the fans do know better-each year after awful drafts some defend and defend and defend the picks saying these guys are experts and dumb fans no nothing-we are left hearing "he has a plan" "he knows more than the guys sitting at home watching" I get having Hope but Hope cant surpass reality I don't think the book is open at all on Pryor. I think he willbe a top safety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmajet Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 26 minutes ago, Rangers9 said: Mac's first draft in 2015 only 2 guys out of 6 hit the field (and one was Devin Smith) and he cut his last two picks. Hopefully Deion Simon who made the team this year hangs around and contributes. NFL careers aren't that long esp for higher draft picks. And even after they make a team if they later have vet status they are the first players cut. Because of salary considerations. An NFL team will take a rookie over a vet if they have a choice. Let's see how this plays out with that 2014 Jets draft and where the chips fall. Some of these guys like Jeremiah George and Brandon Dixon have been on NFL teams regular season and having a 2 year career is not that far below average for a fringe player. And sometime during 2016 their careers could continue. Same for Tommy Bohanon. How's about not blaming an org or a player for being injured and saying that guy is crap when it's not their fault. Every single guy drafted by Idzik in 2013 has had an NFL career even William Campbell who is now a FA but has been on 3 practice squads. Sometimes it takes a few years for a player to really make it. As for the 2014 draft most of these late draft picks made teams. You can go over every single team in the NFL and evaluate their drafts and you'll see that later picks are often no longer on the team. Every single pick in 2014 even Tajh Boyd did ended up at least on a PS and most of those guys played regulation games in the NFL. And Jace Amaro is on the Titans. Hey look ii the media hates somebody like they did Idzik I'm going to think twice before I kill the guy. If they despise him he can't be all that bad. It is hard to evaluate a draft after 1 year, but consider this - Lenard is (or will be a stud), Mauldin is a starting LB, Petty will soon be the backup QB, and of course B. Marshall (it counts as he traded our 5th for him - steal of the century) all of this was done leveraging the previous regimes scouting department. You want to evaluate him, give him another year or 2 and lets evaluate his draft with his own scouting team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers9 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 13 minutes ago, TheMagicRat said: Three players hit the field from the class last year, Mauldin was one of them. And while Simon did get cut, keep in mind we had a ton of depth last year at the DL and was basically a practice squad candidate as soon as we drafted him. He spent a year on the PS and now he can contribute. That's good for a seventh round pick. The big deal about Idzik's picks is that he had 12 of them and minus Q and Pryor, they have done little to nothing. Not even quality backups. It would be silly to think that all of his picks would be studs, or even average players, but to have basically nothing was the inexcusable part. If some of Idzik's picks were more like Simon (or what we hope he will be), then people would be a lot less upset. You're right about 3 out of 6. But those 12 in 2014 is a really overstated number. They were higher picks and the reason we had 12 was because they were comp picks. So two receivers didn't pan out but Enunwa did. I'll take that, one good one out of 3. Look I'm not saying these were good drafts but they were ok and he drafted several very good players. Potential Pro Bowlers. Look the media is still taking shots at him because they didn't like him personally. Cut down day 2016 a few of his draftees were cut and two of them IR'd. So their blind followers come out of the woodwork to rip the guy. Guys like Bohannon and Reilly are good football players and should have longer careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers9 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 25 minutes ago, bostonmajet said: It is hard to evaluate a draft after 1 year, but consider this - Lenard is (or will be a stud), Mauldin is a starting LB, Petty will soon be the backup QB, and of course B. Marshall (it counts as he traded our 5th for him - steal of the century) all of this was done leveraging the previous regimes scouting department. You want to evaluate him, give him another year or 2 and lets evaluate his draft with his own scouting team. I'm not ripping his drafts but just trying to show that in a 3-4 year period many drafted players are out of the NFL. And if they don't stick with the original drafting team it doesn't mean they are busts. I don't think you can count a traded pick as part of a draft. Idzik traded a 4th rounder for Ivory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Milliner just seemed to not be ready to play pro football. Everything goes your way at Alabama...it's not an easy adjustment for kids built like him mentally to make the adjustment. The Amaro pick is maddening in hindsight as he just sucked and was a total pussy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers9 Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 8 hours ago, nyjunc said: he didn't spend at all outside of decker. he was saving for the offseason after the 2014 season when he could fire Rex, hire his own coach and then look good by bringing in a ton of talent. I do appreciate him not overspending on a corner that year though even though it was a huge need. Unfortunately his 12 person draft was a golden opportunity that he blew. Maybe according to you and to Mehta. But just Rex CS no proof whatsoever. Just another excuse for Rex. Yeah, Idzik tried to tank it so he could get rid of Rex. And get himself fired, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 12 hours ago, Rangers9 said: Maybe according to you and to Mehta. But just Rex CS no proof whatsoever. Just another excuse for Rex. Yeah, Idzik tried to tank it so he could get rid of Rex. And get himself fired, too. Rex has had success in this league, Idzik has not. I trust rex more than Idzik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 13 hours ago, Rangers9 said: Maybe according to you and to Mehta. But just Rex CS no proof whatsoever. Just another excuse for Rex. Yeah, Idzik tried to tank it so he could get rid of Rex. And get himself fired, too. Don't understand why you're arguing against this particular conspiracy theory. The best argument for John Idzik doesn't suck is that he deliberately sucked in an effort to get rid of Rex, hiding how awesome he was until Rex was gone. Much better than, hey, some of the guys Idzik drafted have been on NFL practice squads, you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjets782 Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 21 hours ago, Beerfish said: He didn't spend foolishly and set up our current regime to spend a lot and get some great results. If people on here had their way we would have 'out dueled' the giants for Dominque Rogers Cromartie and been committed to him, the giants had about the worst pass defense in the league last year. He could have blown the wad that year, we could have won 7 games and rex would still be our coach. Or he could have signed any one of 4 other corners that would have come more cheap than the secondary overall we underwent last offseason. Leaving huge gaping holes in your roster has never been a solid "plan". Do I really need to bring up the name Dimitri Patterson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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