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Alright, how fixable are the problems?


Integrity28

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5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

you wrote the jets lost b/c they lost focus.  i responded they lost b/c they have the inferior qb.  my apologies for not stating this premise explicitly.

No, I saw what you were trying to say. That was a gentle way of saying, no, you're stretching my generalization about losing focus to fit your QB narrative.

Fitz has his problems, won't argue that.

Losing focus on special teams and missing an extra point and a chip shot field goal is a lack of focus - that has nothing to do with the QB.

Having the lead with your defense on the field, your strength and identify, in the final minutes and suddenly not being able to force a stop for the win - that has nothing to do with the QB.

Fitz isn't why the team loses focus. 

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22 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

petty, jalin marshall and robbie anderson, IMO.  the jets are not making the playoffs with fitz.  petty has the skill set he brings would add a dimension to the offense it sorely needs to compete.  they should have used jalin way more in the red zone.  he's clearly a playmaker with the ball, his return was insane all the broken tackles.  the offense relied on forte, marshall and decker were largely ineffective.  the offense needs juice.  cincy used boyd, the jets need to be more creative and use their playmakers.

So you just want players you're curious about to start.  Petty isn't playing over Fitz, has nothing to do with his age.  He can throw longer, yes.  Also will throw more passes to the opposition.   He's not ready, isn't going to do better than Fitz, this isn't preseason against someone's scrubs.  No coach is playing Anderson or jalin over Marshall, not just Bowles.  

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4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

It was brought up as an issue with Bowles.   I see 2 rookie LBs set to start alongside and 2nd year LB.. New OLmen who aren't long term vets.  Young WRs making the team.  

There is a difference between just playing young guys vs the better player playing.  I'm looking for a vet who has been outplayed by a youn player and is still playing

 

Whatever dude.

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12 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Here is the answer that will be difficult for many to grasp:

We are a 4-12 John Idzik disaster in Year #2 Game #1 of a four-year rebuilding project which, through an easy schedule and uncharacteristically high quarterback play, prematurely got to 10 wins last year but wasn't actually a 10 win team.

And while some aspects of the team are ahead of schedule (DL, WR, RB) some areas aren't corrected yet (QB, DB, LB, OL) and so occasionally we will show flashes of strong play, we will often tease against some good teams, but in the end we are an average team at best and will lose painfully when superior teams with superior talent, superior coaching, and superior experience will find ways to beat us.

SAR I

LOL! We lost by 1 point. Sure there were issues, look at the Cardinals, supposed Super Bowl team, their Oline SUCKS worse than ours. 2 of the big plays were blown assignments, TE & Green TD. The other was a tremendous catch by a freaking Super Star freak of a WR,  41% of their passing yards. We had 7 sacks against an Oline that was the 2nd ranked behind the Cowboys in the entire NFL. It amazes me how fans are looking for perfection in a game that is chaos. The only difference in the Jets & Pats games yesterday was that Gostkowski kicked a 52 yard FG for the lead, and then the Pats defense let the Cards, even with a 10 yard holding call get within a 47 yard FG & the Cards holder & kicker blew it! Mike Nugent kicked his 47 harder for the lead RIGHT THROUGH THE UPRIGHTS. But we've got people jumping off cliffs & throwing in the towel on the season already. Could you imagine if coaches & players reacted this way?

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Just now, Jet Nut said:

What, we can only doscuss your talking points?  

F'n someone else. 

Go back and read what I originally responded with. I don't care.

You going to get upset because I don't want to keep talking about something I already told you I feel is irrelevant?

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2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

So you just want players you're curious about to start.  Petty isn't playing over Fitz, has nothing to do with his age.  He can throw longer, yes.  Also will throw more passes to the opposition.   He's not ready, isn't going to do better than Fitz, this isn't preseason against someone's scrubs.  No coach is playing Anderson or jalin over Marshall, not just Bowles.  

you rotate the wrs in, throw long every now and then to keep defenses honest.

we all know fitz is merely a placeholder until petty or hack is ready.  fitz didn't suck yesterday, but he left a good many plays on the field.  i don't know if he's any better than petty.

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38 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

By all accounts, going back to last season and week 17 specifically, these are the recurring problems that lead to losses:

  • Defense cannot close, allows scoring drive in final minutes of 4th quarter and relinquish lead
  • Fitz cannot bail the defense out, in the 4th quarter, with the game on the line, after a momentum shift just stole the lead from us (there have been exceptions to this, but let's face it, he's not the comeback kid)
  • Fitz struggles to get in rhythm early in games
  • Revis cannot be on an "island" with #1 WR
  • Secondary cannot defend wheel routes and bubble screens
  • Marshall makes drops in game-changing moments
  • Defensive coaches don't make good in-game adjustments in coverage
  • Offensive/head coaches don't manage clock well
  • Offensive coaches are generally conservative in red zone, and don't keep their foot on the gas with a lead
  • Folk is missing easy kicks
  • Special teams makes momentum-changing mistakes

I wonder, as I look down this list, how much of it is fixable with improved execution and coaching? The knee-jerk is to cut this guy, and cut that guy... but the reality is, the roster is what it's going to be. As the pre-season fades into the rear view, and reps increase, what can we expect (realistically) to see improvement on?

 

Theres a problem with the problems you state.  It's just to generic a list. Many of these so called problems were there to begin with and ignored. Revis is past his prime and should have never garnered such a contract. Marshall like Fitz is Marshall. You live and die with who they are. To expect Fitz to turn into Dan Marino and bail out the game because the D once again didn't do its job is wishful thinking.  And where is Mac in all these 'problems'. It's his show, he is the conductor of this flawed orchestra. Bowles and Mac are rookies in this league. They will go through growing pains. This is not a quick fix but it is getting better. Oh and cut Geno, everything solved ?

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We had all these problems that are spoken about. And I am not downplaying them.

 If Nick Folk makes an extra point and the FG, we're 1-0.

The fact that we were competing with a playoff team and should have won, if the kicker does his job, with ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS, not only shows how good the GM is but also to an extent how good the HC is. 

Remember when people came out and blamed Rex for not motivating the team enough? Bowles doesn't have that problem

 

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1 minute ago, Powpow said:

Theres a problem with the problems you state.  It's just to generic a list. Many of these so called problems were there to begin with and ignored. Revis is past his prime and should have never garnered such a contract. Marshall like Fitz is Marshall. You live and die with who they are. To expect Fitz to turn into Dan Marino and bail out the game because the D once again didn't do its job is wishful thinking.  And where is Mac in all these 'problems'. It's his show, he is the conductor of this flawed orchestra. Bowles and Mac are rookies in this league. They will go through growing pains. This is not a quick fix but it is getting better. Oh and cut Geno, everything solved ?

What part of "going back to last season" wasn't clear in my OP? And in consulting work, the idea is to capture problems in broad strokes, then scrutinize aspects of the problem in detail in order to solve them. My job isn't to solve them, so I'm not putting forth that level of work on a message board. I felt synthesizing the over-arching themes for our problem areas was enough to get my point across.

 

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You're not fixing Fitz's arm

Revis isn't going to get faster with age

Marshall is going to continue to make key drops on occasion (he's done it all his career) 

Folk is as good as we're going to get right now and is serviceable

The coaching is where you can fix some of these issues -

        stop leaving Revis alone - He can no longer cover quality receivers one-on-one.  He's  solid corner but will need help like everyone else.

    If it has to be Fitz, then play to win.  Let him throw it, if you put your 12mm eggs in the Fitz basket then live with it and let him play to win.  This overly conservative    BS needs to stop. Don't go into a shell with a one score lead.  It's insane.    Or bring in one of the younger QB's to play with some of the younger WR's.

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34 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Here is the answer that will be difficult for many to grasp:

We are a 4-12 John Idzik disaster in Year #2 Game #1 of a four-year rebuilding project which, through an easy schedule and uncharacteristically high quarterback play, prematurely got to 10 wins last year but wasn't actually a 10 win team.

And while some aspects of the team are ahead of schedule (DL, WR, RB) some areas aren't corrected yet (QB, DB, LB, OL) and so occasionally we will show flashes of strong play, we will often tease against some good teams, but in the end we are an average team at best and will lose painfully when superior teams with superior talent, superior coaching, and superior experience will find ways to beat us.

SAR I

 Exactly right....

This team is a work in progress.  They're not going anywhere this year but there is a lot to be excited about going forward.  A lot of young potential on both sides of the ball.

If either Petty or Hack pans out this group has the makings of a legitimate contender in 3 years or so.. 

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31 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

more succinctly, with fitz they can beat most of the mediocre and bad teams but not many of the good teams.  mccags knows this, he's drafted 2 qbs in 2 years and petty will likely get his shot sooner than later if this continues.

That goes without saying so you don't need to keep saying it.

No one believes Ryan FItzpatrick is a franchise quarterback or capable of getting us to the Super Bowl.  He is, however, a great game-manager-class quarterback with terrific pocket presence and scrambling ability.

Despite his flaws, Ryan Fitzpatrick had this game won at the 2 minute warning.  The secondary didn't stop the Bengals in crunch time despite a lead, great field position, a running game that couldn't function, and a quarterback who had been pounded into submission.  This is just as bad as @Integrity28 points out in the original post, it's the same reason we lost last year's Texans, Patriots, and Bills games, it's the same reason we are going to lose on Thursday.  Ryan Fitzpatrick is outplaying his ability in New York; our secondary is a humiliation.

SAR I

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5 minutes ago, SAR I said:

That goes without saying so you don't need to keep saying it.

No one believes Ryan FItzpatrick is a franchise quarterback or capable of getting us to the Super Bowl.  He is, however, a great game-manager-class quarterback with terrific pocket presence and scrambling ability.

Despite his flaws, Ryan Fitzpatrick had this game won at the 2 minute warning.  The secondary didn't stop the Bengals in crunch time despite a lead, great field position, a running game that couldn't function, and a quarterback who had been pounded into submission.  This is just as bad as @Integrity28 points out in the original post, it's the same reason we lost last year's Texans, Patriots, and Bills games, it's the same reason we are going to lose on Thursday.  Ryan Fitzpatrick is outplaying his ability in New York; our secondary is a humiliation.

SAR I

i think if i keep writing it, it will happen sooner.  wishful writing.

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15 minutes ago, SAR I said:

That goes without saying so you don't need to keep saying it.

No one believes Ryan FItzpatrick is a franchise quarterback or capable of getting us to the Super Bowl.  He is, however, a great game-manager-class quarterback with terrific pocket presence and scrambling ability.

Despite his flaws, Ryan Fitzpatrick had this game won at the 2 minute warning.  The secondary didn't stop the Bengals in crunch time despite a lead, great field position, a running game that couldn't function, and a quarterback who had been pounded into submission.  This is just as bad as @Integrity28 points out in the original post, it's the same reason we lost last year's Texans, Patriots, and Bills games, it's the same reason we are going to lose on Thursday.  Ryan Fitzpatrick is outplaying his ability in New York; our secondary is a humiliation.

SAR I

We will win Thursday but good points otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

By all accounts, going back to last season and week 17 specifically, these are the recurring problems that lead to losses:

  • Defense cannot close, allows scoring drive in final minutes of 4th quarter and relinquish lead   League wide problem but yes.
  • Fitz cannot bail the defense out, in the 4th quarter, with the game on the line, after a momentum shift just stole the lead from us (there have been exceptions to this, but let's face it, he's not the comeback kid) True, that's why he's average
  • Fitz struggles to get in rhythm early in games  Yesterday he looked good early, bad late.
  • Revis cannot be on an "island" with #1 WR   Maybe
  • Secondary cannot defend wheel routes and bubble screens Very true and the coaches do not adjust
  • Marshall makes drops in game-changing moments Always has, its his MO
  • Defensive coaches don't make good in-game adjustments in coverage See above
  • Offensive/head coaches don't manage clock well True
  • Offensive coaches are generally conservative in red zone, and don't keep their foot on the gas with a lead Very True
  • Folk is missing easy kicks At least yesterday
  • Special teams makes momentum-changing mistakes And some big plays like the Marshall return

I wonder, as I look down this list, how much of it is fixable with improved execution and coaching? The knee-jerk is to cut this guy, and cut that guy... but the reality is, the roster is what it's going to be. As the pre-season fades into the rear view, and reps increase, what can we expect (realistically) to see improvement on?

 

Answers in italics

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10 minutes ago, Powpow said:

 

We will win Thursday but good points otherwise.

No, we won't.  Road game, 2 days rest, confident opponent, five-game losing streak, and we have a major weakness that can be exploited.  Sammy Watkins may be AFC Player Of The Month after this.

 

17 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i think if i keep writing it, it will happen sooner.  wishful writing.


Now that I can get behind.

SAR I

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10 minutes ago, SAR I said:

No, we won't.  Road game, 2 days rest, confident opponent, five-game losing streak, and we have a major weakness that can be exploited.  Sammy Watkins may be AFC Player Of The Month after this.

 


Now that I can get behind.

SAR I

Watkins may not play

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1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

By all accounts, going back to last season and week 17 specifically, these are the recurring problems that lead to losses:

  • Defense cannot close, allows scoring drive in final minutes of 4th quarter and relinquish lead
  • Fitz cannot bail the defense out, in the 4th quarter, with the game on the line, after a momentum shift just stole the lead from us (there have been exceptions to this, but let's face it, he's not the comeback kid)
  • Fitz struggles to get in rhythm early in games
  • Revis cannot be on an "island" with #1 WR
  • Secondary cannot defend wheel routes and bubble screens
  • Marshall makes drops in game-changing moments
  • Defensive coaches don't make good in-game adjustments in coverage
  • Offensive/head coaches don't manage clock well
  • Offensive coaches are generally conservative in red zone, and don't keep their foot on the gas with a lead
  • Folk is missing easy kicks
  • Special teams makes momentum-changing mistakes

I wonder, as I look down this list, how much of it is fixable with improved execution and coaching? The knee-jerk is to cut this guy, and cut that guy... but the reality is, the roster is what it's going to be. As the pre-season fades into the rear view, and reps increase, what can we expect (realistically) to see improvement on?

 

Defense cannot close, allows scoring drive in final minutes of 4th quarter and relinquish lead

    Twice last year against New England got bailed out once by Fitz, The other game was against Dallas where Clark kicked a game tying field goal late and Fitz was able to get them into FG range and Bullock hit the game winner. Add yesterday to the mix so 4 games (I might be missing one) and they won 2 of them. This defense is so much better than the Coslet teams that would give up lead on what seemed like a weekly basis or Herm's and Mangini "Cover Who ?" teams 

Wherein lies the next question... Coslet had Pete Carroll and his blitzing D and you have Rex's blitzing D on one side and then you have Herm's and Mangini zone teams that seemed fail more often than not. So what is the answer ? Is there an answer ?

Fitz cannot bail the defense out, in the 4th quarter, with the game on the line, after a momentum shift just stole the lead from us (there have been exceptions to this, but let's face it, he's not the comeback kid)

     Salvaged the second New England game, the Dallas game, and the Giants game (down 20-10 in that one). Failed in the second Buffalo game, Davis drops a game winning TD in the first Buffalo game). So yes he can and has pulled games out of the fire. Just didn't happen yesterday.

Fitz struggles to get in rhythm early in games

   Looked great on the the Jets first drive yesterday but struggled after the missed xp and blocked field goal. Momentum went all back to Cincy. I can see agree with this though. 

Revis cannot be on an "island" with #1 WR

    Put him on the #2 receiver and let Williams or Skrine double with the safety on the the number 1 ?

Marshall makes drops in game-changing moments

      yeah and he has made huge catches as well.

As far as the coaching is concerned I would have to look at the game a little closer. ( I was on the road most of the day yesterday watching on my phone so I couldn't tell off hand.

Folk: the dude has been probably been our best kicker since Leahy. He had a bad day yesterday. Move on. If it keeps going like that though then you bring someone else in.

Special Teams will be much better this year despite Folk's bad game yesterday. It look like we at least have a punter.

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1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

By all accounts, going back to last season and week 17 specifically, these are the recurring problems that lead to losses:

  • Defense cannot close, allows scoring drive in final minutes of 4th quarter and relinquish lead--frustrating as FVCK, i thought that with all the time that our O took to take the lead our defense would come out fresh and squash Cincy for the game.  I think this can be fixed.
  • Fitz cannot bail the defense out, in the 4th quarter, with the game on the line, after a momentum shift just stole the lead from us (there have been exceptions to this, but let's face it, he's not the comeback kid)--we took the lead with 5 mins left?  he couldnt do it a second time with 50 secs left.
  • Fitz struggles to get in rhythm early in games--Man!!!! we were rolling our first 2 possessions!!! came away with nothing on the second one...
  • Revis cannot be on an "island" with #1 WR--give this man some FVCKING help for FVCKS SAKE!!!!
  • Secondary cannot defend wheel routes and bubble screens--trick  plays are tricky.  fool me once fool me twice....something something....
  • Marshall makes drops in game-changing moments--Same thing last year... hopefully he balls out for 14 our of our 16 reg season games to get us to a 17th game
  • Defensive coaches don't make good in-game adjustments in coverage--gotta fix this sh!t
  • Offensive/head coaches don't manage clock well--meh, cincy fvcked up worse at the end of the 1st half, dont hear boo about Marvin
  • Offensive coaches are generally conservative in red zone, and don't keep their foot on the gas with a lead--last year we were awesome in RZ, we will improve
  • Folk is missing easy kicks--kick this MOFO in the arse!!!
  • Special teams makes momentum-changing mistakes--aside from the missed FG i was happy w/ST

I wonder, as I look down this list, how much of it is fixable with improved execution and coaching? The knee-jerk is to cut this guy, and cut that guy... but the reality is, the roster is what it's going to be. As the pre-season fades into the rear view, and reps increase, what can we expect (realistically) to see improvement on?

 

See responses in bold above, in short I blame @Larz the game was there for the taking and he must have been going for a jalapeno sausage or some sh!t....

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2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

By all accounts, going back to last season and week 17 specifically, these are the recurring problems that lead to losses:

  • Defense cannot close, allows scoring drive in final minutes of 4th quarter and relinquish lead
  • Fitz cannot bail the defense out, in the 4th quarter, with the game on the line, after a momentum shift just stole the lead from us (there have been exceptions to this, but let's face it, he's not the comeback kid)
  • Fitz struggles to get in rhythm early in games
  • Revis cannot be on an "island" with #1 WR
  • Secondary cannot defend wheel routes and bubble screens
  • Marshall makes drops in game-changing moments
  • Defensive coaches don't make good in-game adjustments in coverage
  • Offensive/head coaches don't manage clock well
  • Offensive coaches are generally conservative in red zone, and don't keep their foot on the gas with a lead
  • Folk is missing easy kicks
  • Special teams makes momentum-changing mistakes

I wonder, as I look down this list, how much of it is fixable with improved execution and coaching? The knee-jerk is to cut this guy, and cut that guy... but the reality is, the roster is what it's going to be. As the pre-season fades into the rear view, and reps increase, what can we expect (realistically) to see improvement on?

 

Until the Jets get a NFL caliber QB the rest of the problems really don't matter.

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24 minutes ago, whodeawhodat said:

See responses in bold above, in short I blame @Larz the game was there for the taking and he must have been going for a jalapeno sausage or some sh!t....

The jets won the last 5 openers and didn't make the playoffs once.  I work in mysterious ways

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Not that there aren't other problems, but imo the secondary is a big concern.  Has been all off season.  The focus today is on Revis, but what kind of game did M. Williams have?  Says here he can't cover in man coverage.  If he could the Jets would make better use of Skrine, who is also uncomfortable in certain schemes.

I like the cb rotation even less today than I did before yesterday.

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2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Go back and read what I originally responded with. I don't care.

You going to get upset because I don't want to keep talking about something I already told you I feel is irrelevant?

I didn't ask you to join in the conversation, you jumped in.  

Who are you to tell anyone what is irrelevant or not?  The person I was discussing this, the one who brought it up has no problem discussing it.  Move on 

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2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

you rotate the wrs in, throw long every now and then to keep defenses honest.

we all know fitz is merely a placeholder until petty or hack is ready.  fitz didn't suck yesterday, but he left a good many plays on the field.  i don't know if he's any better than petty.

I agree, under normal circumstances.  But Fitz can't throw long.  Unfortunately Petty or Hack aren't ready yet and Geno is a lost cause.  Fitz is what he is, great guy who you want to succeed but doesn't have the physical skills.  I think we're stuck with him until we're out of it or until next season.  I just don't think it's because of a reluctance to play younger players but just that they're playing the best players 

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Just now, Jet Nut said:

I agree, under normal circumstances.  But Fitz can't throw long.  Unfortunately Petty or Hack aren't ready yet and Geno is a lost cause.  Fitz is what he is, great guy who you want to succeed but doesn't have the physical skills.  I think we're stuck with him until we're out of it or until next season.  I just don't think it's because of a reluctance to play younger players but just that they're playing the best players 

i thought they would have used the rooks a bit deep to keep cincy guessing.  why not take a shot or three down the field - maybe you get a PI penalty?  that's part of the strategy.  i thought the offensive gameplan was the exact same as last year.  and cincy figured it out at halftime.  

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3 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

By all accounts, going back to last season and week 17 specifically, these are the recurring problems that lead to losses:

  • Defense cannot close, allows scoring drive in final minutes of 4th quarter and relinquish lead
  • Fitz cannot bail the defense out, in the 4th quarter, with the game on the line, after a momentum shift just stole the lead from us (there have been exceptions to this, but let's face it, he's not the comeback kid)
  • Fitz struggles to get in rhythm early in games
  • Revis cannot be on an "island" with #1 WR
  • Secondary cannot defend wheel routes and bubble screens
  • Marshall makes drops in game-changing moments
  • Defensive coaches don't make good in-game adjustments in coverage
  • Offensive/head coaches don't manage clock well
  • Offensive coaches are generally conservative in red zone, and don't keep their foot on the gas with a lead
  • Folk is missing easy kicks
  • Special teams makes momentum-changing mistakes

I wonder, as I look down this list, how much of it is fixable with improved execution and coaching? The knee-jerk is to cut this guy, and cut that guy... but the reality is, the roster is what it's going to be. As the pre-season fades into the rear view, and reps increase, what can we expect (realistically) to see improvement on?

 

All of it. Just fire Schottenheimer.

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8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I didn't ask you to join in the conversation, you jumped in.  

Who are you to tell anyone what is irrelevant or not?  

I started the thread, smart guy.

All you had to do was pay attention to my first response to you, where I gave you context for its irrelevance. Then you wouldn't be reminding us that you're stupid.

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54 minutes ago, Larz said:

The jets won the last 5 openers and didn't make the playoffs once.  I work in mysterious ways

So the only reason I predicted a win yesterday was because I was there and we always win when I'm there and we always win home openers.  So, when both of those things didnt happen and we choked that game away...the only silver lining I could think of was...well, we missed the playoffs in 5 straight years when we won the opener, maybe this year is reversed?

Do your work O'Captain, My Captain or I will start a mutiny to get EY back at the helm.

 

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