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Real problems vs. reactionary narratives


Integrity28

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I've been swamped with travel and work the past couple weeks. I feel fortunate in that I haven't even been able to watch each of the past 2 games in their entirety. Given how things have gone, it would have been a waste of time and nothing but pure aggravation.

I've been skimming the board, and watching the reactions, over-reactions, and tracking the pulse of how the emotional coaster of rooting this team manifests in narratives about how to fix it. I think there's validity to some, others are completely stupid, and some are centered on the right issue, but so extremely biased or confounded it's hard to take them seriously.

So, with all that said, I think these are the general themes I've picked up on and I'm going to try to present them without bias or slant.

  • Real problem #1: Can our GM find a Franchise QB? — MacCagnan has tried to fill the QB room economically, using a 7th rounder to acquire Fitz, then a 1-yr contract to keep him (contrary to many points of view on this site, this is actually an economical approach when compared to other teams spending $12+ mil over several years for other mediocre veteran QBs), a 4th to draft Petty, and a 2nd to draft Hack. Where this concerns me is that the later you pick a QB, the less likely you are to hit—I think I read that somewhere. The concern here is that Mac may not fully grasp the cost of "getting your guy". Rumors were that he wanted to move up for Wentz or Goff. He didn't, and my goal here is not to pose the argument over whether he should have or shouldn't have, but instead to flag the possibility that our otherwise competent GM may just required a "cost of a QB" curve. Since neither Petty or Hack have taken a regular season snap, this is unsubstantiated worry, and not proven fault. We have to hope he's successful with one, or both, of them. 
  • Real problem #1: Our coach is slow to adjust — This seems very real. Whether it is in-game (in terms of not adjusting during half-time to stop the one offensive player that is ripping his defense), or across a series of games (when a veteran is grossly underperforming and needs some bench time to figure sh*t out). I like coach Bowles, and anticipated a curve, but what I didn't anticipate was for him to be this much of a players coach. His reluctance to stand by veteran players while they fail week-in, and week-out, is mind-boggling. It's certainly not something that comes from his Parcells influence. Parcells, who also embedded this mindset into Belicheck, was not afraid to sit a veteran down until he could fix what he was doing wrong. There's no sign at all of Bowles having a "team-first no matter how it may hurt feelings" mindset. Cromartie needed to be sat down last year, Revis this year, and Fitz too. You can't go on month-long losing streaks because you want to be loyal to a guy. You bench them, with the understanding that when they get right, they get their job back. Best players, play. 
  • Real problem #3: When your defense is a joke... — This is the reality. Every single pro-Fitzpatrick advocate had 2 things in common, they plainly admitted how limited he was, and they fully endorsed him as a "hold-the-fort" solution that would allow this team to win on defense. However, The worst corner on the team right now, statistically, is the fat, out-of-shape excuse-making Revis and he's getting paid a fortune. The next biggest investment on D is the defensive line, where we have 3 first round picks and a mid-priced FA veteran rotating. You'd think a DL like this could take over and dictate the tone of a game, but they cannot. Mo Wilk looks like sunk cost. Sheldon looks like a guy trying to make sure he doesn't get hurt so he can avoid the situation Mo Wilk faced last year. Leonard Williams is the best player on this defense, and he has to share time with the other guys... and this doesn't even begin to get into where the real problem is. The secondary is in shambles. Skrine was consider a top-5 slot corner when we signed him, he's now playing outside, a move like this lessens the impact he can have. Revis has become a lazy bum. The safeties are playing slow, out-of-position, and somewhat selfishly. The HC has a background working with secondaries and he doesn't seem able to scheme around the limitations and strengths of these guys.
  • Real problem #4: ...You can't hide a middling QB — Fitz played nearly perfect vs. Buffalo, and in the other 3 games he has looked like the worst QB in football. Problem #4 is a continuation of #3 in reality. This team was constructed to win on defense. The offense is an assembly of economically acquired veterans - from the offensive line, to every skill position. There's a LOT of talent there, but it doesn't matter when the QB is throwing the ball in the dirt, over people's heads, and into the waiting hands of the opponent. Allow 17, score 21, regularly is how they built this thing. Fitz isn't the guy for playing catchup, and the defense (specifically the secondary) is so bad, that it's forcing the issue. If we want a guy that can push the ball down the field, then Petty or Geno, should be on the field. At this point, all past arguments aside, Fitz needs a reality check, not a vote of confidence. Sit him down, let him get right if he's your guy, but damn... put someone on the field that can make us competitive, before the season is flushed. 9 INTs in 2 weeks and a vote of confidence is not fair to every other player on that team, or the fans. Wins are worth more than pride. Forget how much you paid Fitz, it's irrelevant at this point. 

I know a lot of these topics are being thrashed on in several threads each. I don't have the energy or interest to seek out the level-headed fans that understand the problems as they exist in each of those threads, and I've made an effort here to identify problems fairly, so I hope there may be a chance to discuss in isolation without the spin of day-in, day-out looney tunes here.

Dammit man, the Jets carried so much positive momentum into this season... it's astounding how quickly they killed it.

 

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D line underperforming, but they've been pushing the pocket. The secondary just needs to play better. I think they can, I just don't know if they will this year. Somethings off.

Fitz situation is simple. We all know no defense is scared of his deep threat so all db's can play with everything in front of them, care-free. Fitz has been so erratic that he can't hit the intermediates. Ok, how can any team win lik this? They can't.

We all can watch geno or petty throw 3 picks a game, but at least their ability to throw deep can open big plays and maybe put more points on the board. I was all for signing Fitz back to a one year deal. But he's been this bad, he needs to benched next game if he doesn't figure it out.

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35 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

I've been swamped with travel and work the past couple weeks. I feel fortunate in that I haven't even been able to watch each of the past 2 games in their entirety. Given how things have gone, it would have been a waste of time and nothing but pure aggravation.

I've been skimming the board, and watching the reactions, over-reactions, and tracking the pulse of how the emotional coaster of rooting this team manifests in narratives about how to fix it. I think there's validity to some, others are completely stupid, and some are centered on the right issue, but so extremely biased or confounded it's hard to take them seriously.

So, with all that said, I think these are the general themes I've picked up on and I'm going to try to present them without bias or slant.

  • Real problem #1: Can our GM find a Franchise QB? — MacCagnan has tried to fill the QB room economically, using a 7th rounder to acquire Fitz, then a 1-yr contract to keep him (contrary to many points of view on this site, this is actually an economical approach when compared to other teams spending $12+ mil over several years for other mediocre veteran QBs), a 4th to draft Petty, and a 2nd to draft Hack. Where this concerns me is that the later you pick a QB, the less likely you are to hit—I think I read that somewhere. The concern here is that Mac may not fully grasp the cost of "getting your guy". Rumors were that he wanted to move up for Wentz or Goff. He didn't, and my goal here is not to pose the argument over whether he should have or shouldn't have, but instead to flag the possibility that our otherwise competent GM may just required a "cost of a QB" curve. Since neither Petty or Hack have taken a regular season snap, this is unsubstantiated worry, and not proven fault. We have to hope he's successful with one, or both, of them. 
  • Real problem #1: Our coach is slow to adjust — This seems very real. Whether it is in-game (in terms of not adjusting during half-time to stop the one offensive player that is ripping his defense), or across a series of games (when a veteran is grossly underperforming and needs some bench time to figure sh*t out). I like coach Bowles, and anticipated a curve, but what I didn't anticipate was for him to be this much of a players coach. His reluctance to stand by veteran players while they fail week-in, and week-out, is mind-boggling. It's certainly not something that comes from his Parcells influence. Parcells, who also embedded this mindset into Belicheck, was not afraid to sit a veteran down until he could fix what he was doing wrong. There's no sign at all of Bowles having a "team-first no matter how it may hurt feelings" mindset. Cromartie needed to be sat down last year, Revis this year, and Fitz too. You can't go on month-long losing streaks because you want to be loyal to a guy. You bench them, with the understanding that when they get right, they get their job back. Best players, play. 
  • Real problem #3: When your defense is a joke... — This is the reality. Every single pro-Fitzpatrick advocate had 2 things in common, they plainly admitted how limited he was, and they fully endorsed him as a "hold-the-fort" solution that would allow this team to win on defense. However, The worst corner on the team right now, statistically, is the fat, out-of-shape excuse-making Revis and he's getting paid a fortune. The next biggest investment on D is the defensive line, where we have 3 first round picks and a mid-priced FA veteran rotating. You'd think a DL like this could take over and dictate the tone of a game, but they cannot. Mo Wilk looks like sunk cost. Sheldon looks like a guy trying to make sure he doesn't get hurt so he can avoid the situation Mo Wilk faced last year. Leonard Williams is the best player on this defense, and he has to share time with the other guys... and this doesn't even begin to get into where the real problem is. The secondary is in shambles. Skrine was consider a top-5 slot corner when we signed him, he's now playing outside, a move like this lessens the impact he can have. Revis has become a lazy bum. The safeties are playing slow, out-of-position, and somewhat selfishly. The HC has a background working with secondaries and he doesn't seem able to scheme around the limitations and strengths of these guys.
  • Real problem #4: ...You can't hide a middling QB — Fitz played nearly perfect vs. Buffalo, and in the other 3 games he has looked like the worst QB in football. Problem #4 is a continuation of #3 in reality. This team was constructed to win on defense. The offense is an assembly of economically acquired veterans - from the offensive line, to every skill position. There's a LOT of talent there, but it doesn't matter when the QB is throwing the ball in the dirt, over people's heads, and into the waiting hands of the opponent. Allow 17, score 21, regularly is how they built this thing. Fitz isn't the guy for playing catchup, and the defense (specifically the secondary) is so bad, that it's forcing the issue. If we want a guy that can push the ball down the field, then Petty or Geno, should be on the field. At this point, all past arguments aside, Fitz needs a reality check, not a vote of confidence. Sit him down, let him get right if he's your guy, but damn... put someone on the field that can make us competitive, before the season is flushed. 9 INTs in 2 weeks and a vote of confidence is not fair to every other player on that team, or the fans. Wins are worth more than pride. Forget how much you paid Fitz, it's irrelevant at this point. 

I know a lot of these topics are being thrashed on in several threads each. I don't have the energy or interest to seek out the level-headed fans that understand the problems as they exist in each of those threads, and I've made an effort here to identify problems fairly, so I hope there may be a chance to discuss in isolation without the spin of day-in, day-out looney tunes here.

Dammit man, the Jets carried so much positive momentum into this season... it's astounding how quickly they killed it.

 

Sheldon point is glaring and solid. 6 sacks the week without him and how many since ?  Mind boggling. Leonard Williams should share time with no man. No man I tell you. Revis is a fat slouch.  As a fat slouch myself I speak this with utmost certainty.  Bowles? Was better as the Villian on Burn Notice.  

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I agree with most of the original post. People that are just bashing Fitz and blaming him for the situation we are in are ridiculous.

 

The biggest culprit to me is the defense. Fitz is what he is. I can’t say that enough, tough defenses are always going to give him trouble. They gave Chad trouble a lot of times as well. Reason? Mainly the arm strength. Fitz’s fatal flaw as opposed to guys like Chad and Alex Smith though that makes things all the more tougher for him is his “gunslinger” mentality. He’ll try to force balls into tight windows way to much. That’s one of the main reasons why Pennington and Smith are not only better, but have had more success than he has in terms of W’s and L’s.

 

I like Maac’s approach at the QB position so far. You don’t go all out to get your guy unless you feel really strongly in whatever player that is. Because you are going to be tied to any QB you draft in the first round. If he doesn’t see that guy yet, it’s smart to wait and do things like draft a couple of prospects in Hack/Petty and hope one pans out (although Hack in the second isn’t exactly a later round low risk high reward pick),  and add a “hold the fort” kind of player in Fitz who can help teach the other QB’s. But like you said, I hope he understands just how important it is to find your guy at QB. I would have to assume he does.

 

The biggest problem is the defense though. Our LB’s are suspect. Harris is old, and Jenkins and Lee are still untested, they’re rookies, we don’t know if they are players or not yet. People who say “the Jets front seven is excellent” are incorrect. Our D-Line is excellent, not the entire front 7. Although our D-Line does need to start generating more pressure on opposing QB’s. But teams are trying to neutralize them by getting the ball out quick. And they are having success.

 

But our secondary is the biggest problem. You can see the breakdown in coverages happening all game. This isn’t just something people are saying with no real evidence. It’s there. They get burned for big plays cause safeties have been slipping, or not picking up their man. I still think Revis can play  at a high but not elite level. However, we need another CB across from him. We’d be in much better position if Buster Skrine was the 3rd CB on our depth chart instead of the second. I think the Jets should be looking to move Revis to FS and acquire to new CB's going into next year.

 

I don’t feel either way about Bowles right now. I don’t think he’s been bad, but I don’t think he’s been good either. I’m hoping he learns from mistakes and begins to make better decisions in game.

 

I believe the Jets have overrated the talent in their secondary and continue to neglect the O-Line. That’s whats killed them. That and not having a franchise QB. But that’s not the easiest thing to fine. The secondary and O-Line issues are more easily correctable.

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I think Bowles falls into a 'we are going to do' vs 'we are going to do and then we are going to have to adjust'

I think he wants to dictate the game with his defense but seems totally unprepared to deal with the next chess move by the other coach.  I will give Rex Ryan some credit on this one because the one year we got thrashed vs the pats but then beat them in the playoffs he went totally against his instincts on defense (pressure).

We are wasting some players imo right now and some lesser lights are actually more well suited to what teams are doing to us.  Antonio Allen may be limited in some ways but he proved to me that he was physical enough to match up vs other teams TE.  Lee is in the neighborhood but not making plays on TE/RB and Williams is just too small as evidenced when he put him on  a TE.

And the over arching point #1, QB is such an important position that it makes some coaches good who are mediocre  and geniuses who are good.  This is one reason I personally was very upset with this past draft I hated the Hackenburg pick with a passion and thought it was a big fat was for a pick that high.

 

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1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

I've been swamped with travel and work the past couple weeks. I feel fortunate in that I haven't even been able to watch each of the past 2 games in their entirety. Given how things have gone, it would have been a waste of time and nothing but pure aggravation.

I've been skimming the board, and watching the reactions, over-reactions, and tracking the pulse of how the emotional coaster of rooting this team manifests in narratives about how to fix it. I think there's validity to some, others are completely stupid, and some are centered on the right issue, but so extremely biased or confounded it's hard to take them seriously.

So, with all that said, I think these are the general themes I've picked up on and I'm going to try to present them without bias or slant.

  • Real problem #1: Can our GM find a Franchise QB? — MacCagnan has tried to fill the QB room economically, using a 7th rounder to acquire Fitz, then a 1-yr contract to keep him (contrary to many points of view on this site, this is actually an economical approach when compared to other teams spending $12+ mil over several years for other mediocre veteran QBs), a 4th to draft Petty, and a 2nd to draft Hack. Where this concerns me is that the later you pick a QB, the less likely you are to hit—I think I read that somewhere. The concern here is that Mac may not fully grasp the cost of "getting your guy". Rumors were that he wanted to move up for Wentz or Goff. He didn't, and my goal here is not to pose the argument over whether he should have or shouldn't have, but instead to flag the possibility that our otherwise competent GM may just required a "cost of a QB" curve. Since neither Petty or Hack have taken a regular season snap, this is unsubstantiated worry, and not proven fault. We have to hope he's successful with one, or both, of them. 
  • Real problem #1: Our coach is slow to adjust — This seems very real. Whether it is in-game (in terms of not adjusting during half-time to stop the one offensive player that is ripping his defense), or across a series of games (when a veteran is grossly underperforming and needs some bench time to figure sh*t out). I like coach Bowles, and anticipated a curve, but what I didn't anticipate was for him to be this much of a players coach. His reluctance to stand by veteran players while they fail week-in, and week-out, is mind-boggling. It's certainly not something that comes from his Parcells influence. Parcells, who also embedded this mindset into Belicheck, was not afraid to sit a veteran down until he could fix what he was doing wrong. There's no sign at all of Bowles having a "team-first no matter how it may hurt feelings" mindset. Cromartie needed to be sat down last year, Revis this year, and Fitz too. You can't go on month-long losing streaks because you want to be loyal to a guy. You bench them, with the understanding that when they get right, they get their job back. Best players, play. 
  • Real problem #3: When your defense is a joke... — This is the reality. Every single pro-Fitzpatrick advocate had 2 things in common, they plainly admitted how limited he was, and they fully endorsed him as a "hold-the-fort" solution that would allow this team to win on defense. However, The worst corner on the team right now, statistically, is the fat, out-of-shape excuse-making Revis and he's getting paid a fortune. The next biggest investment on D is the defensive line, where we have 3 first round picks and a mid-priced FA veteran rotating. You'd think a DL like this could take over and dictate the tone of a game, but they cannot. Mo Wilk looks like sunk cost. Sheldon looks like a guy trying to make sure he doesn't get hurt so he can avoid the situation Mo Wilk faced last year. Leonard Williams is the best player on this defense, and he has to share time with the other guys... and this doesn't even begin to get into where the real problem is. The secondary is in shambles. Skrine was consider a top-5 slot corner when we signed him, he's now playing outside, a move like this lessens the impact he can have. Revis has become a lazy bum. The safeties are playing slow, out-of-position, and somewhat selfishly. The HC has a background working with secondaries and he doesn't seem able to scheme around the limitations and strengths of these guys.
  • Real problem #4: ...You can't hide a middling QB — Fitz played nearly perfect vs. Buffalo, and in the other 3 games he has looked like the worst QB in football. Problem #4 is a continuation of #3 in reality. This team was constructed to win on defense. The offense is an assembly of economically acquired veterans - from the offensive line, to every skill position. There's a LOT of talent there, but it doesn't matter when the QB is throwing the ball in the dirt, over people's heads, and into the waiting hands of the opponent. Allow 17, score 21, regularly is how they built this thing. Fitz isn't the guy for playing catchup, and the defense (specifically the secondary) is so bad, that it's forcing the issue. If we want a guy that can push the ball down the field, then Petty or Geno, should be on the field. At this point, all past arguments aside, Fitz needs a reality check, not a vote of confidence. Sit him down, let him get right if he's your guy, but damn... put someone on the field that can make us competitive, before the season is flushed. 9 INTs in 2 weeks and a vote of confidence is not fair to every other player on that team, or the fans. Wins are worth more than pride. Forget how much you paid Fitz, it's irrelevant at this point. 

I know a lot of these topics are being thrashed on in several threads each. I don't have the energy or interest to seek out the level-headed fans that understand the problems as they exist in each of those threads, and I've made an effort here to identify problems fairly, so I hope there may be a chance to discuss in isolation without the spin of day-in, day-out looney tunes here.

Dammit man, the Jets carried so much positive momentum into this season... it's astounding how quickly they killed it.

 

Your comments on problem #3 and partially #4 is pretty much what I was planning on saying on JN radio tonight.  You are 100% right.

I fully supported a Fitz return based on my expectations of the defense.

If I thought there was any chance of this being a bottom-5 defense, I'd have wanted no part of Fitz.  He's a good guy who can put some points on the board, but constantly playing from behind with no running game makes him useless and that's unfortunate.

Petty time.

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1 minute ago, AFJF said:

Your comments on problem #3 and partially #4 is pretty much what I was planning on saying on JN radio tonight.  You are 100% right.

I fully supported a Fitz return based on my expectations of the defense.

If I thought there was any chance of this being a bottom-5 defense, I'd have wanted no part of Fitz.  He's a good guy who can put some points on the board, but constantly playing from behind with no running game makes him useless and that's unfortunate.

Petty time.

You're always stealing my material! :D

Nobody saw the D being this bad. Honestly, with all the investment they've pumped into it... there's really no excuse.

Kacy Rodgers has to go or be relieved of playcalling/gameplanning. Put it on Bowles, if it doesn't get fixed, then what good is he?

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-Bad QB (yep).

-Bad in-game coaching and reaction (yep).

-Bad Defense, Secondary (yep).

-Good D-Line Underperforming (yep).

-Really, truly, bad QB.....sadly (yep).  He's failing to even hold the fort currently.

You nailed it.  I'd add poor running game/O-Co'ing in the Red Zone, as that seems to our biggest fail on O, we drive fine...then stall in the Red Zone and either kick a FG or toss a turnover where we should be dominating via the running game.

Apart from that, perfectly well said.

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2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I've been swamped with travel and work the past couple weeks. I feel fortunate in that I haven't even been able to watch each of the past 2 games in their entirety. Given how things have gone, it would have been a waste of time and nothing but pure aggravation.

I've been skimming the board, and watching the reactions, over-reactions, and tracking the pulse of how the emotional coaster of rooting this team manifests in narratives about how to fix it. I think there's validity to some, others are completely stupid, and some are centered on the right issue, but so extremely biased or confounded it's hard to take them seriously.

So, with all that said, I think these are the general themes I've picked up on and I'm going to try to present them without bias or slant.

  • Real problem #1: Can our GM find a Franchise QB? — MacCagnan has tried to fill the QB room economically, using a 7th rounder to acquire Fitz, then a 1-yr contract to keep him (contrary to many points of view on this site, this is actually an economical approach when compared to other teams spending $12+ mil over several years for other mediocre veteran QBs), a 4th to draft Petty, and a 2nd to draft Hack. Where this concerns me is that the later you pick a QB, the less likely you are to hit—I think I read that somewhere. The concern here is that Mac may not fully grasp the cost of "getting your guy". Rumors were that he wanted to move up for Wentz or Goff. He didn't, and my goal here is not to pose the argument over whether he should have or shouldn't have, but instead to flag the possibility that our otherwise competent GM may just required a "cost of a QB" curve. Since neither Petty or Hack have taken a regular season snap, this is unsubstantiated worry, and not proven fault. We have to hope he's successful with one, or both, of them. 
  • Real problem #1: Our coach is slow to adjust — This seems very real. Whether it is in-game (in terms of not adjusting during half-time to stop the one offensive player that is ripping his defense), or across a series of games (when a veteran is grossly underperforming and needs some bench time to figure sh*t out). I like coach Bowles, and anticipated a curve, but what I didn't anticipate was for him to be this much of a players coach. His reluctance to stand by veteran players while they fail week-in, and week-out, is mind-boggling. It's certainly not something that comes from his Parcells influence. Parcells, who also embedded this mindset into Belicheck, was not afraid to sit a veteran down until he could fix what he was doing wrong. There's no sign at all of Bowles having a "team-first no matter how it may hurt feelings" mindset. Cromartie needed to be sat down last year, Revis this year, and Fitz too. You can't go on month-long losing streaks because you want to be loyal to a guy. You bench them, with the understanding that when they get right, they get their job back. Best players, play. 
  • Real problem #3: When your defense is a joke... — This is the reality. Every single pro-Fitzpatrick advocate had 2 things in common, they plainly admitted how limited he was, and they fully endorsed him as a "hold-the-fort" solution that would allow this team to win on defense. However, The worst corner on the team right now, statistically, is the fat, out-of-shape excuse-making Revis and he's getting paid a fortune. The next biggest investment on D is the defensive line, where we have 3 first round picks and a mid-priced FA veteran rotating. You'd think a DL like this could take over and dictate the tone of a game, but they cannot. Mo Wilk looks like sunk cost. Sheldon looks like a guy trying to make sure he doesn't get hurt so he can avoid the situation Mo Wilk faced last year. Leonard Williams is the best player on this defense, and he has to share time with the other guys... and this doesn't even begin to get into where the real problem is. The secondary is in shambles. Skrine was consider a top-5 slot corner when we signed him, he's now playing outside, a move like this lessens the impact he can have. Revis has become a lazy bum. The safeties are playing slow, out-of-position, and somewhat selfishly. The HC has a background working with secondaries and he doesn't seem able to scheme around the limitations and strengths of these guys.
  • Real problem #4: ...You can't hide a middling QB — Fitz played nearly perfect vs. Buffalo, and in the other 3 games he has looked like the worst QB in football. Problem #4 is a continuation of #3 in reality. This team was constructed to win on defense. The offense is an assembly of economically acquired veterans - from the offensive line, to every skill position. There's a LOT of talent there, but it doesn't matter when the QB is throwing the ball in the dirt, over people's heads, and into the waiting hands of the opponent. Allow 17, score 21, regularly is how they built this thing. Fitz isn't the guy for playing catchup, and the defense (specifically the secondary) is so bad, that it's forcing the issue. If we want a guy that can push the ball down the field, then Petty or Geno, should be on the field. At this point, all past arguments aside, Fitz needs a reality check, not a vote of confidence. Sit him down, let him get right if he's your guy, but damn... put someone on the field that can make us competitive, before the season is flushed. 9 INTs in 2 weeks and a vote of confidence is not fair to every other player on that team, or the fans. Wins are worth more than pride. Forget how much you paid Fitz, it's irrelevant at this point. 

I know a lot of these topics are being thrashed on in several threads each. I don't have the energy or interest to seek out the level-headed fans that understand the problems as they exist in each of those threads, and I've made an effort here to identify problems fairly, so I hope there may be a chance to discuss in isolation without the spin of day-in, day-out looney tunes here.

Dammit man, the Jets carried so much positive momentum into this season... it's astounding how quickly they killed it.

 

Well said, and I have some additional thoughts.

1. I would not be surprised if Macc drafts a QB next year as well, high or low. He doesn't care about positions, he cares about talent. Hackenberg comes as a result of talking with Bill O'Brien about him, no doubt in my mind. He was already rumored to be scouting Kizer at the ND/Syr. game.

2. He is slow to adjust, but he does adjust. Cimini noted that he blitzed more in this game than in any other. And, from the naked eye, it appeared that he blitzed more in the second half. Wilson was just able to successfully move in the pocket to attack the secondary.

Not a coincidence that the one QB they got to consistently is a statue in the pocket. 

3. The defense collapse is attributed to a couple of things. First the regression of Calvin Pryor, who I thought showed good cover skills last year. Second is of course the regression of Revis. 3rd is the youth at the LBers. Darron Lee had a damn good game, IMO. People who are saying he got exposed, I dont think, watched the game closely. Jenkins continues to improve. But as with Revis and other young defensive players, it takes time to get them acclimatized. And because of the bad drafts of 2010-2014, the Jets are stuck with old veterans and inexperienced rookies, no in between. That leads to blown coverages and roastings.

4. That is correct, although the Vikings seem to be doing it well with Bradford.

 

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2 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

 

4. That is correct, although the Vikings seem to be doing it well with Bradford.

 

The entire statement of 3+4 is: When your defense is a joke... you can't hide a middling QB. 

Vikings defense is best in league. Of course they can hide Bradford, and frankly, he's doing for them exactly what Fitz did for us last year. 

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4 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

The entire statement of 3+4 is: When your defense is a joke... you can't hide a middling QB. 

Vikings defense is best in league. Of course they can hide Bradford, and frankly, he's doing for them exactly what Fitz did for us last year. 

I agree 100%. 9 of the 10 INTs Fitz has thrown has come when the Jets are behind. He can't play from behind. So it goes back to the defense. And my response to 3. 

Regression of Pryor in coverage.

Regression of Revis in coverage.

MIx of Inexperienced youth and old veterans in the LB corps.

Now 3 here is a depth and that will come with more drafts and letting Harris go next year. UNtil then, I want to see more of Henderson, who palyed well last year.

I would move Revis to FS next year and cut either Pryor or Gilchrist.

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As I am watching the Jets debacle on Sunday, I couldn't help but wonder if there was any realistic possibility of trading for a proven starting QB to hold down the fort for the next couple of years.  2 names come to mind Rivers or Brees.  I mean maybe San Diego and New Orleans have grown tired not being able to field a defense and so there good offenses aren't doing them any good.  Could the Jets trade from their position of strength of D-linemen with a couple of mid round picks and maybe Fitz thrown in too for RIvers or Brees?

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Great write up but I don't buy into the whole "cost of a quarterback thing." Rarely do sell the farm trade ups work it leaves a team too vulnerable and open to refine changes.  I don't love Hack but if he works out it's brilliant.

Unfortunately, the organization can't afford to be bad, there's too much pressure for that to happen and that's what's necessary for a pick high enough to draft a top QB prospect.

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Just now, kdels62 said:

Great write up but I don't buy into the whole "cost of a quarterback thing." Rarely do sell the farm trade ups work it leaves a team too vulnerable and open to refine changes.  I don't love Hack but if he works out it's brilliant.

Unfortunately, the organization can't afford to be bad, there's too much pressure for that to happen and that's what's necessary for a pick high enough to draft a top QB prospect.

And that's why Maccagnan has to balance competing now with rebuilding. 

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Just now, Beerfish said:

The thing that is going to kill me come next draft is that fact that our team won't possibly believe that the D scheme or strat sucks and therefore we will be drafting defense, yet again.  A CB and a Safety in the 1st three rounds.

Macc will draft BPA. regardless of where. Wouldn't be surprised if he flips Richardson for a high pick too.

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2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I've been swamped with travel and work the past couple weeks. I feel fortunate in that I haven't even been able to watch each of the past 2 games in their entirety. Given how things have gone, it would have been a waste of time and nothing but pure aggravation.

I've been skimming the board, and watching the reactions, over-reactions, and tracking the pulse of how the emotional coaster of rooting this team manifests in narratives about how to fix it. I think there's validity to some, others are completely stupid, and some are centered on the right issue, but so extremely biased or confounded it's hard to take them seriously.

So, with all that said, I think these are the general themes I've picked up on and I'm going to try to present them without bias or slant.

Very well summarized, but there is one general theme that is crucial, is really the reason so many at JN are so upset, is often dismissed, and explains almost everything:

Real problem #5: ... This Ain't No Cupcake Schedule — A rebuilding team with a JAG quarterback, aging veterans, inexperienced starters, injury-prone replacements, and a wafer-thin roster, all under the tutelage of an inexperienced country yokel as a head coach can hide its flaws and even succeed when they are playing below-average NFL teams.  But against a murderers row of playoff-caliber competition, these things are exposed, exploited, and show just how far away from a legitimate NFL contender we still are.  Too many fans ignored last year's easy schedule where Fitzpatrick and our D could thrive against weaklings, we simply didn't play enough elites in '15 to connect the dots to what might happen in '16.  One can argue that we are essentially the same team as last year, playing the same way we did when we had a 5-1 run from Thanksgiving to New Year's, but this time facing legitimate offenses, defenses, and coaching our rebuild cannot be disguised.

SAR I

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38 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

The entire statement of 3+4 is: When your defense is a joke... you can't hide a middling QB. 

Vikings defense is best in league. Of course they can hide Bradford, and frankly, he's doing for them exactly what Fitz did for us last year. 

That beast the Vikings have in the middle of their D-line is other worldly.  Makes Snacks look like JV.  Bradford is good until he Bradfords and gets hurt.

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2 hours ago, Adoni Beast said:

D line underperforming, but they've been pushing the pocket. The secondary just needs to play better. I think they can, I just don't know if they will this year. Somethings off.

Fitz situation is simple. We all know no defense is scared of his deep threat so all db's can play with everything in front of them, care-free. Fitz has been so erratic that he can't hit the intermediates. Ok, how can any team win lik this? They can't.

We all can watch geno or petty throw 3 picks a game, but at least their ability to throw deep can open big plays and maybe put more points on the board. I was all for signing Fitz back to a one year deal. But he's been this bad, he needs to benched next game if he doesn't figure it out.

If the secondary plays off and they 3 step drop to defeat the rush, not much can be done.  Bowles is timid.  And the blitzes he dials up are lame

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2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I've been swamped with travel and work the past couple weeks. I feel fortunate in that I haven't even been able to watch each of the past 2 games in their entirety. Given how things have gone, it would have been a waste of time and nothing but pure aggravation.

I've been skimming the board, and watching the reactions, over-reactions, and tracking the pulse of how the emotional coaster of rooting this team manifests in narratives about how to fix it. I think there's validity to some, others are completely stupid, and some are centered on the right issue, but so extremely biased or confounded it's hard to take them seriously.

So, with all that said, I think these are the general themes I've picked up on and I'm going to try to present them without bias or slant.

  • Real problem #1: Can our GM find a Franchise QB? — MacCagnan has tried to fill the QB room economically, using a 7th rounder to acquire Fitz, then a 1-yr contract to keep him (contrary to many points of view on this site, this is actually an economical approach when compared to other teams spending $12+ mil over several years for other mediocre veteran QBs), a 4th to draft Petty, and a 2nd to draft Hack. Where this concerns me is that the later you pick a QB, the less likely you are to hit—I think I read that somewhere. The concern here is that Mac may not fully grasp the cost of "getting your guy". Rumors were that he wanted to move up for Wentz or Goff. He didn't, and my goal here is not to pose the argument over whether he should have or shouldn't have, but instead to flag the possibility that our otherwise competent GM may just required a "cost of a QB" curve. Since neither Petty or Hack have taken a regular season snap, this is unsubstantiated worry, and not proven fault. We have to hope he's successful with one, or both, of them. 
  • Real problem #1: Our coach is slow to adjust — This seems very real. Whether it is in-game (in terms of not adjusting during half-time to stop the one offensive player that is ripping his defense), or across a series of games (when a veteran is grossly underperforming and needs some bench time to figure sh*t out). I like coach Bowles, and anticipated a curve, but what I didn't anticipate was for him to be this much of a players coach. His reluctance to stand by veteran players while they fail week-in, and week-out, is mind-boggling. It's certainly not something that comes from his Parcells influence. Parcells, who also embedded this mindset into Belicheck, was not afraid to sit a veteran down until he could fix what he was doing wrong. There's no sign at all of Bowles having a "team-first no matter how it may hurt feelings" mindset. Cromartie needed to be sat down last year, Revis this year, and Fitz too. You can't go on month-long losing streaks because you want to be loyal to a guy. You bench them, with the understanding that when they get right, they get their job back. Best players, play. 
  • Real problem #3: When your defense is a joke... — This is the reality. Every single pro-Fitzpatrick advocate had 2 things in common, they plainly admitted how limited he was, and they fully endorsed him as a "hold-the-fort" solution that would allow this team to win on defense. However, The worst corner on the team right now, statistically, is the fat, out-of-shape excuse-making Revis and he's getting paid a fortune. The next biggest investment on D is the defensive line, where we have 3 first round picks and a mid-priced FA veteran rotating. You'd think a DL like this could take over and dictate the tone of a game, but they cannot. Mo Wilk looks like sunk cost. Sheldon looks like a guy trying to make sure he doesn't get hurt so he can avoid the situation Mo Wilk faced last year. Leonard Williams is the best player on this defense, and he has to share time with the other guys... and this doesn't even begin to get into where the real problem is. The secondary is in shambles. Skrine was consider a top-5 slot corner when we signed him, he's now playing outside, a move like this lessens the impact he can have. Revis has become a lazy bum. The safeties are playing slow, out-of-position, and somewhat selfishly. The HC has a background working with secondaries and he doesn't seem able to scheme around the limitations and strengths of these guys.
  • Real problem #4: ...You can't hide a middling QB — Fitz played nearly perfect vs. Buffalo, and in the other 3 games he has looked like the worst QB in football. Problem #4 is a continuation of #3 in reality. This team was constructed to win on defense. The offense is an assembly of economically acquired veterans - from the offensive line, to every skill position. There's a LOT of talent there, but it doesn't matter when the QB is throwing the ball in the dirt, over people's heads, and into the waiting hands of the opponent. Allow 17, score 21, regularly is how they built this thing. Fitz isn't the guy for playing catchup, and the defense (specifically the secondary) is so bad, that it's forcing the issue. If we want a guy that can push the ball down the field, then Petty or Geno, should be on the field. At this point, all past arguments aside, Fitz needs a reality check, not a vote of confidence. Sit him down, let him get right if he's your guy, but damn... put someone on the field that can make us competitive, before the season is flushed. 9 INTs in 2 weeks and a vote of confidence is not fair to every other player on that team, or the fans. Wins are worth more than pride. Forget how much you paid Fitz, it's irrelevant at this point. 

I know a lot of these topics are being thrashed on in several threads each. I don't have the energy or interest to seek out the level-headed fans that understand the problems as they exist in each of those threads, and I've made an effort here to identify problems fairly, so I hope there may be a chance to discuss in isolation without the spin of day-in, day-out looney tunes here.

Dammit man, the Jets carried so much positive momentum into this season... it's astounding how quickly they killed it.

 

Two more weeks of this and he'll be riding the pine.

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57 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

You're always stealing my material! :D

Nobody saw the D being this bad. Honestly, with all the investment they've pumped into it... there's really no excuse.

Kacy Rodgers has to go or be relieved of playcalling/gameplanning. Put it on Bowles, if it doesn't get fixed, then what good is he?

I think a big part of the D line problems is the Jets are playing 4 DT's at the same time on the line, and they don't have the outside speed to get to the QB, and this makes Bowles blitz DB's, and they get picked up, and the QB has his pick of the litter to throw to the open guy for big plays, Sheldon needs to be replaced with a top speed rusher on the outside some how in the offseason.

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24 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The thing that is going to kill me come next draft is that fact that our team won't possibly believe that the D scheme or strat sucks and therefore we will be drafting defense, yet again.  A CB and a Safety in the 1st three rounds.

Only way I approve of a DB drafted rd 1 is if Jabril Peppers is on the board when the Jets pick.  Kid is a stud, works hard (he lived at my buddy from works house so he could play at Bosco, and hasn't come home because he takes classes so he can graduate in December from Michigan in 2.5 years), he can be a BIG time play maker in the NFL. 

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17 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Very well summarized, but there is one general theme that is crucial, is really the reason so many at JN are so upset, is often dismissed, and explains almost everything:

Real problem #5: ... This Ain't No Cupcake Schedule — A rebuilding team with a JAG quarterback, aging veterans, inexperienced starters, injury-prone replacements, and a wafer-thin roster, all under the tutelage of an inexperienced country yokel as a head coach can hide its flaws and even succeed when they are playing below-average NFL teams.  But against a murderers row of playoff-caliber competition, these things are exposed, exploited, and show just how far away from a legitimate NFL contender we still are.  Too many fans ignored last year's easy schedule where Fitzpatrick and our D could thrive against weaklings, we simply didn't play enough elites in '15 to connect the dots to what might happen in '16.  One can argue that we are essentially the same team as last year, playing the same way we did when we had a 5-1 run from Thanksgiving to New Year's, but this time facing legitimate offenses, defenses, and coaching our rebuild cannot be disguised.

SAR I

You make good points ... but, I don't put a lot of stock into the impact of schedule AND I have said for years that "rebuilding" is only a PR term used to placate fans in hindsight after a lost campaign. Trust me, this front office and team didn't come into this season expecting to be walked all over because they are "rebuilding". 

They expected to win like they did last year, but with some key flaws in the team addressed, which is specifically why they resigned Fitz.

Either way, bringing this up does raise a loosely related concern for me... which is awareness of where they stack up. I believe they might have grossly over-rated themselves based on last year's results. If screwballs like the posters on this site can look up Fitz's win percentage against teams above .500, it does make me wonder if the front office ever did... lol

 

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The defense is not that bad, are they elite? No but if you look around the league teams give up big plays in the passing game every week; news flash it's going to happen. In week 1 the defense gave up 21/22 points, in week 3 they gave up 10 points, in week 4 they held the Seahawks to 17 points until the game changing int. This defense is good enough. The problem is the offense isn't putting up enough points. One of the few QB's that can legitimately complain about their defense is Luck and Rivers. 

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8 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

You make good points ... but, I don't put a lot of stock into the impact of schedule AND I have said for years that "rebuilding" is only a PR term used to placate fans in hindsight after a lost campaign. Trust me, this front office and team didn't come into this season expecting to be walked all over because they are "rebuilding". 

They expected to win like they did last year, but with some key flaws in the team addressed, which is specifically why they resigned Fitz.

Either way, bringing this up does raise a loosely related concern for me... which is awareness of where they stack up. I believe they might have grossly over-rated themselves based on last year's results. If screwballs like the posters on this site can look up Fitz's win percentage against teams above .500, it does make me wonder if the front office ever did... lol

 

Yes, and look no further than this:

Cincinnati:  We lose a close one at home to a 12-4 elite.

Buffalo:  On 2 days rest we win convincingly on the road against an 8-8 also-ran.

Kansas City:  On 10 days rest we lose convincingly on the road against an 11-5 elite.

That Buffalo game felt just like the 5-0 run we pulled off last year, didn't it?  It's because Buffalo '16 is just like Miami, Giants, Titans, and Cowboys were in 2015.  We can beat scrubs.  There just aren't enough of them on our early schedule.

SAR I

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4 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

So, with all that said, I think these are the general themes I've picked up on and I'm going to try to present them without bias or slant.

On balance I'd say you were very fair. The team, coaching, and FO have multiple problems and they're deeper than a game here or there from any individual one of them. 

The thing I'm hoping for this year, putting aside optimism/pessimism as to likelihood, is Petty getting onto the field and showing he's good enough. Not because it fixes the GM or HC or any other underperforming players. But it will hide a lot of the other real problems, and possibly those playing below their ability may start to look/play like they care again. Clearly Bowles isn't firing them up with moving or inspirational speeches, to the extent that stuff ever truly lasts more than 30 minutes anyway.

Even in the absence of going all the way - or even making the playoffs - this year, that would also open up a lot of other possibilities in the offseason, because they surely can't pencil in Fitz or Hackenberg to start next year. So a lot of other uninspired play can be punished by finding new players instead of continuing the attempt at getting half pregnant at QB. He's going to need a longer look than I fear he'll get, though, to give the GM enough confidence throughout the 2017 offseason to forgo attempts at a more promising young QB than they've got. Unlike this past offseason, he's going to be under a lot of pressure to nail a QB (or a more optimistic prospect) in the spring. So again, hopefully Petty comes in and takes the league by storm. He has enough weapons at his disposal.

That gets taken care of then it's not the elephant in the room and the GM can fully devote himself to replacing the other faulty parts. 

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On the secondary, am I missing something or is M Williams not a problem?  I get that on his stat line he's got the only two interceptions.  But when you watch the game it is apparent how weak he is in man coverage, and the DC responds (also responding to Revis giving up big plays in the first two games) by dialing up more zone coverage.  Which is where all the "miscommunication" occurs.

Someone help me out here.

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2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I think Bowles falls into a 'we are going to do' vs 'we are going to do and then we are going to have to adjust'

I think he wants to dictate the game with his defense but seems totally unprepared to deal with the next chess move by the other coach.  I will give Rex Ryan some credit on this one because the one year we got thrashed vs the pats but then beat them in the playoffs he went totally against his instincts on defense (pressure).

We are wasting some players imo right now and some lesser lights are actually more well suited to what teams are doing to us.  Antonio Allen may be limited in some ways but he proved to me that he was physical enough to match up vs other teams TE.  Lee is in the neighborhood but not making plays on TE/RB and Williams is just too small as evidenced when he put him on  a TE.

And the over arching point #1, QB is such an important position that it makes some coaches good who are mediocre  and geniuses who are good.  This is one reason I personally was very upset with this past draft I hated the Hackenburg pick with a passion and thought it was a big fat was for a pick that high.

 

What does Hackenburg have to do with Fitz sucking ass???? We have no idea about Hack is; he was drafted to red-shirt this year but we know plenty about the 12 million dollar man.  The real issue is why didn't we have the guts to go with our two young quarterbacks and sign vet like Hoyer to back up if necessary.    With the young speedy wide receiver talent on this team who really thought Fitz was the best option?   No, he was resigned because of the "mirage" of 10-6 against a cup cake schedule.  Our doofus of a HC even named this loser the starter AFTER choking in Buffalo!!  Who DOES that????   Even if you resign him, why not let him compete and WIN the job instead of getting the job by default (by way of Geno being assaulted).  This not about Geno, either because I would have loved to see Petty get real opportunity to start in training camp.  Instead they signed this journeyman and gifted him the job and the rest is well, the rest is what I expected it to be, so far. 

 

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6 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

What does Hackenburg have to do with Fitz sucking ass???? We have no idea about Hack is; he was drafted to red-shirt this year but we know plenty about the 12 million dollar man.  The real issue is why didn't we have the guts to go with our two young quarterbacks and sign vet like Hoyer to back up if necessary.    With the young speedy wide receiver talent on this team who really thought Fitz was the best option?   No, he was resigned because of the "mirage" of 10-6 against a cup cake schedule.  Our doofus of a HC even named this loser the starter AFTER choking in Buffalo!!  Who DOES that????   Even if you resign him, why not let him compete and WIN the job instead of getting the job by default (by way of Geno being assaulted).  This not about Geno, either because I would have loved to see Petty get real opportunity to start in training camp.  Instead they signed this journeyman and gifted him the job and the rest is well, the rest is what I expected it to be, so far. 

 

Hopefully Woody comes to his senses and fires Macc and Bowles and opens up the checkbook and brings in real football people not impostors. 

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1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

Only way I approve of a DB drafted rd 1 is if Jabril Peppers is on the board when the Jets pick.  Kid is a stud, works hard (he lived at my buddy from works house so he could play at Bosco, and hasn't come home because he takes classes so he can graduate in December from Michigan in 2.5 years), he can be a BIG time play maker in the NFL. 

He is a playmaker for sure but is he good enough at one position?  I'm always leery of these multi faceted players in college because in the pros most often you are a one position guy.

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Here are some retreads that may help alleviate the Jets' coverage problems - LOL!!!

 

Colts released cornerback Antonio Cromartie and waived inside linebacker Sio Moore.

Adam Schefter ESPN Senior Writer 

 


 

Colts released CB Antonio Cromartie.

Cromartie's tenure in Indianapolis lasted all of four games. He was added late in training camp as insurance for Vontae Davis, who returned from an ankle injury in Week 3. This could also be a sign that Darius Butler (hamstring) is on the mend. Cromartie logged 14 tackles over 204 snaps for the Colts. LB Sio Moore was also released on Tuesday.
 
Oct 4 - 3:05 PM
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22 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

What does Hackenburg have to do with Fitz sucking ass???? We have no idea about Hack is; he was drafted to red-shirt this year but we know plenty about the 12 million dollar man.  The real issue is why didn't we have the guts to go with our two young quarterbacks and sign vet like Hoyer to back up if necessary.    With the young speedy wide receiver talent on this team who really thought Fitz was the best option?   No, he was resigned because of the "mirage" of 10-6 against a cup cake schedule.  Our doofus of a HC even named this loser the starter AFTER choking in Buffalo!!  Who DOES that????   Even if you resign him, why not let him compete and WIN the job instead of getting the job by default (by way of Geno being assaulted).  This not about Geno, either because I would have loved to see Petty get real opportunity to start in training camp.  Instead they signed this journeyman and gifted him the job and the rest is well, the rest is what I expected it to be, so far. 

 

It has nothing to do with fitzpatrick at all, and I never said it did, at all.  It has to do with my point about if you don't have a QB you have a short shelf life in the NFL.  All the long term geniuses of this league had/have great QB's  Using a 2nd round pick on a guy who is so messed up he's a long long shot is a way to get you fired eventually.  long shot developmental picks in the mid to late rounds?  You don;t take grief, early rounds?  You do.

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