Time to switch QBs

[Maxman]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Max, I love you my friend.  I'd hope you know that by now.

If you can't take a little ribbing.....I'd suggest you're taking all this far too seriously.

We're allowed to disagree, and express ourselves here.  SAR wasn't ordering you do anything.  He was arguing a position, rather well at that.

Of course you don't "have" to do anything.  But SAR, in the course of enlightened rhetorical exchange, CAN suggest you should.  

Your response started with a YUGE over-reaction.  You'll allowed to over-react, of course.  We all do from time to time.

But you might want to consider that your response to a well reasoned argument wasn't, at all, well reasoned.

InbeforebannedWarfish.

Oh I see what you are saying now, that I over-reacted to his comment about talking about the other players. I thought it meant I over-reacted in talking about Fitz's performance. Yeah it is possible I read that wrong.

As far as the bolded part goes, I will let my track record speak for itself. JetNation is what it is because of the tone we set here (having fun). At the end of the day though no over-reactions here ever lead to us banning people which is what I am most proud of.

We talk football here. And when QBs like Ryan Fitzpatrick play even worse than the average expectations we have of them, yeah it gets a little more lively here, no doubt.

 

 

 

[Maxman]

And for the record, almost 6,000 people have viewed this thread. So that is something I am proud of as well.

[Warfish]

26 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

So many excuses for Fitz. It's almost as if he can "do no wrong" because we know what Fitz is.

When people say "Fitz is playing poorly", "Fitz is playing like Fitz (not a compliment)" and "Fitz is playing like wet puppy sh*t.....that's not making excuses.

When people say, factually, demonstrably, that our Defense, Coaching and Running Game are all well below projected performance....that's not making excuses, that's stating facts.

When people remind you that it's a game of 22 on 22, not one on 22, thats not making excuses.

When people remind you that this team is BUILT to win around it's Defense, it's Running Game and it's WR talent, not it's QB, and all three of those are vastly under performing expectations, that's  making excuses.  

Fitz has played like sh*t.  If you can find an excuse in that statement, you're living in a fantasy world.

But if you expected Fitz to be able to overcome the worst pass Defense in the NFL, an ineffective and poorly coached running game and red zone offense, and fumble-fingered WR's and Special teamers, you're also living in a fantasy world.

I mean really.....are you telling us that a simple "Replace Fitz with Geno" swap, and we're suddenly NOT going to have the worst Defense vs. the Pass in the NFL?  Or Forte and Powell will suddenly break out and Chan will suddenly start using him correctly?  That Geno will not throw INT's at all, even when behind?

There are no excuses for Fitz.

There are ALSO, concurrently, no excuses for Bowles, Chan, our running game and most of all, our "Elite" defense that so far has been one of the worst I've seen in Jets Green in years.

[SAR I]

21 minutes ago, Maxman said:

It would be stupid to expect him to be better than he was last year. That isn't what I am doing.

The problem is he is much worse. 5 TDs, 6 INTs. Multiple fumbles. Pretty bad.

And yes, there are a lot of things wrong with this team. Some of it is a really big concern as well. Just harder to fix some of that stuff right away.

Fair enough, however let's all be fair to ourselves about the Kansas City game please.  Fitzpatrick has now played 20 games for us and that Chiefs game is not indicative of who he is.  That game was so off-the-charts bad, you just can't take that performance and those stats seriously.  I get it, I get how fans of Geno or Fitz haters want to hang on to KC, it's their poster-child for Fitzpatrick suckage, but let's be objective for a moment and look at the other 19 games and specifically how the other 4 games this year are truly representative of who he is.

if you look at the stat lines for the other 4 games, it's the same guy who won 10 games last year.  23 of 40, 225 Yards, 1 TD, 1 INT or thereabouts.

Last year he was AFC Offensive Player Of The Week two times, this year he's won the honor once.

Last year he beat almost every weakling on the schedule, to date he's beaten the only weakling the NFL scheduled us against.

Last year he lost to the tough teams but did pull out the upset in the gutsy Patriots win.

Historically, he's not good against elite teams or winning teams on the road and that's who he has faced so far and yet he is still putting up similar stat lines to last year. 

This year he's had his #1 weapon either injured out missing and his running game has evaporated.

In no way am I saying that Ryan Fitzpatrick is a good quarterback.  What I'm saying is that he's what we expect from a 34 year old journeyman and if you look at the body of work he's playing at his capability, he's not stealing someone else's job, he's not robbing our money, he's not fracturing the locker room, he's not responsible for the defense, he's not the problem in the running game.  Starting next week is a stretch of 8 games where he is capable of a 7-1 or 6-2 run.  Let's see if the secondary and the DL can get their act together when the competition softens.

SAR I

[Jet Nut]

Fitz has been a horror all year, outside of Buffalo.  Reciting stats to cover for his non-production in long stretches and second halves is only part of it.  

But some who spent 90% of the offseason telling all how good he was just can't seem to accept it.  

Afe other parts of the team struggling?  Yes, the secondary is a mess.  But it starts with the QB.  Face facts and put your pride away.  

[UnitedWhofans]

I will say this about Fitz. When he played for Houston in 2014, He had 17 TDs and 8 INTs. But 6 TDs came in 1 game against Tennessee. I remember people whining about that when he signed.

So if that's an outlier, the opposite must also be true

He has 5 TDs and 10 INTs. But 6 of them came in 1 game.

So he's basically been the same QB he's been for the last couple of years.

[Sperm Edwards]

49 minutes ago, Warfish said:

SAR nails it.

Fitz is Fitz.  KC was horrible (and he should have been sat down after INT #4), but outside KC he's been the Fitz we all should have expected.  Average or below average vs. Playoff Teams, with an occasional bright spot (Buffalo).  Good enough to win with a great running game and great defense, and we have neither.

Nails it? lmao 

This is the justification for Fitzpatrick being the QB?

I'd like someone to list all the QBs that weren't "good enough win" while playing under the insanely narrow conditions of:

• matching up against weak opponents
• when aided by a "great" running game
• and a "great" defense
• while performing usually below average or horribly himself - and occasionally average - vs. "playoff teams"
• and for the sake of accuracy, I'll throw in those "playoff teams" will almost always need to be weakened to the tune of missing as many as 5 key starters or must be in temporary + general disarray.
• (should I further throw in ideal weather conditions and a top 3-5 pair of starting WRs?)

Brother if this was ever the justification to re-signing and starting Fitzpatrick, it is a very silly one. 

[Maxman]

24 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Fair enough, however let's all be fair to ourselves about the Kansas City game please.  Fitzpatrick has now played 20 games for us and that Chiefs game is not indicative of who he is.  That game was so off-the-charts bad, you just can't take that performance and those stats seriously.  I get it, I get how fans of Geno or Fitz haters want to hang on to KC, it's their poster-child for Fitzpatrick suckage, but let's be objective for a moment and look at the other 19 games and specifically how the other 4 games this year are truly representative of who he is.

if you look at the stat lines for the other 4 games, it's the same guy who won 10 games last year.  23 of 40, 225 Yards, 1 TD, 1 INT or thereabouts.

Last year he was AFC Offensive Player Of The Week two times, this year he's won the honor once.

Last year he beat almost every weakling on the schedule, to date he's beaten the only weakling the NFL scheduled us against.

Last year he lost to the tough teams but did pull out the upset in the gutsy Patriots win.

Historically, he's not good against elite teams or winning teams on the road and that's who he has faced so far and yet he is still putting up similar stat lines to last year. 

This year he's had his #1 weapon either injured out missing and his running game has evaporated.

In no way am I saying that Ryan Fitzpatrick is a good quarterback.  What I'm saying is that he's what we expect from a 34 year old journeyman and if you look at the body of work he's playing at his capability, he's not stealing someone else's job, he's not robbing our money, he's not fracturing the locker room, he's not responsible for the defense, he's not the problem in the running game.  Starting next week is a stretch of 8 games where he is capable of a 7-1 or 6-2 run.  Let's see if the secondary and the DL can get their act together when the competition softens.

SAR I

I do agree with a lot of this. I think the bottom line is that a 6 and 2 run is possible but I think that scares me. I bust balls with Geno a lot here. I like him but I do realize he is never going to be anything in this league. So I really hope that somehow \ someway the Jets get long term answers out of this season. And that means more intelligence on Petty and possibly Hack in game situations.

As much as I was in favor of a QB change, I realize that they brought Fitz back so they are going to give him more rope. I just hope for once the organization thinks long term and finds a way to develop the future.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 10/14/2016 at 11:04 AM, Maxman said:

I do agree with a lot of this. I think the bottom line is that a 6 and 2 run is possible but I think that scares me. I bust balls with Geno a lot here. I like him but I do realize he is never going to be anything in this league. So I really hope that somehow \ someway the Jets get long term answers out of this season. And that means more intelligence on Petty and possibly Hack in game situations.

As much as I was in favor of a QB change, I realize that they brought Fitz back so they are going to give him more rope. I just hope for once the organization thinks long term and finds a way to develop the future.

It's a fan's luxury for the GM or HC to always act in the team's best interest rather than his own. Had they started out poorly with virtually anyone other than Fitzpatrick, the mantra would have been to count up all the losses that surely would have been wins if only they were wise enough to bring back & start the "smart" QB that broke some lowly team records. There would be nowhere near the shifting of blame to the defense or HC as those that wanted him back tell us how that stuff is secondary in a QB-driven league anyway, and that Fitz would have at least given us a chance. Never mind that in reality, he didn't and doesn't.

The only easy way out for Maccagnan (or Bowles) would have been if a Fitz replacement - whether a rookie or otherwise - did instantly well and we won some of these games against tougher opponents. The 2nd-easiest - which results are still on the table - is if he feeds the mob (including the one on his own roster) by bringing him back, and Fitz merely doesn't do as badly as he's done so far. If we're even close to .500 (say 4-6) when he's benched, most will give the GM an undeserved mulligan on the re-signing.

[Villain The Foe]

5 hours ago, Warfish said:

When people say "Fitz is playing poorly", "Fitz is playing like Fitz (not a compliment)" and "Fitz is playing like wet puppy sh*t.....that's not making excuses.

When people say, factually, demonstrably, that our Defense, Coaching and Running Game are all well below projected performance....that's not making excuses, that's stating facts.

When people remind you that it's a game of 22 on 22, not one on 22, thats not making excuses.

When people remind you that this team is BUILT to win around it's Defense, it's Running Game and it's WR talent, not it's QB, and all three of those are vastly under performing expectations, that's  making excuses.  

Fitz has played like sh*t.  If you can find an excuse in that statement, you're living in a fantasy world.

But if you expected Fitz to be able to overcome the worst pass Defense in the NFL, an ineffective and poorly coached running game and red zone offense, and fumble-fingered WR's and Special teamers, you're also living in a fantasy world.

I mean really.....are you telling us that a simple "Replace Fitz with Geno" swap, and we're suddenly NOT going to have the worst Defense vs. the Pass in the NFL?  Or Forte and Powell will suddenly break out and Chan will suddenly start using him correctly?  That Geno will not throw INT's at all, even when behind?

There are no excuses for Fitz.

There are ALSO, concurrently, no excuses for Bowles, Chan, our running game and most of all, our "Elite" defense that so far has been one of the worst I've seen in Jets Green in years.

Cutting off the rest of my statement which explains how the excuses are being made is another way of making excuses. 

Typical. 

[Villain The Foe]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nails it? lmao 

This is the justification for Fitzpatrick being the QB?

I'd like someone to list all the QBs that weren't "good enough win" while playing under the insanely narrow conditions of:

• matching up against weak opponents
• when aided by a "great" running game
• and a "great" defense
• while performing usually below average or horribly himself - and occasionally average - vs. "playoff teams"
• and for the sake of accuracy, I'll throw in those "playoff teams" will almost always need to be weakened to the tune of missing as many as 5 key starters or must be in temporary + general disarray.
• (should I further throw in ideal weather conditions and a top 3-5 pair of starting WRs?)

Brother if this was ever the justification to re-signing and starting Fitzpatrick, it is a very silly one. 

@Warfish read the above....and DON'T cut off what's being explained. 

[Warfish]

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nails it? lmao 

This is the justification for Fitzpatrick being the QB?

If you want "justification", you'll have to ask Bowles.  I don't actually make the decisions, hence I don't have to justify them.

In point of fact, I've said repeatedly that Fitz has earned a benching.  That Fitz is playing very poorly.

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'd like someone to list all the QBs that weren't "good enough win" while playing under the insanely narrow conditions of:

• matching up against weak opponents
• when aided by a "great" running game
• and a "great" defense
• while performing usually below average or horribly himself - and occasionally average - vs. "playoff teams"
• and for the sake of accuracy, I'll throw in those "playoff teams" will almost always need to be weakened to the tune of missing as many as 5 key starters or must be in temporary + general disarray.
• (should I further throw in ideal weather conditions and a top 3-5 pair of starting WRs?)

Sure:  Geno Smith (in the eyes of Bowles, Chan and Macc).

Not sure what you want my friend.  Fitz is pretty damn bad this year.  

Clearly the people who would know, think Geno would be worse, hence they sit him even now.

If you want to know why, you'll have to ask them.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

If you want "justification", you'll have to ask Bowles.  I don't actually make the decisions, hence I don't have to justify them.

In point of fact, I've said repeatedly that Fitz has earned a benching.  That Fitz is playing very poorly.

Sure:  Geno Smith (in the eyes of Bowles, Chan and Macc).

Not sure what you want my friend.  Fitz is pretty damn bad this year.  

Clearly the people who would know, think Geno would be worse, hence they sit him even now.

If you want to know why, you'll have to ask them.

I'm not talking about Geno Smith. 

[drdetroit]

Literally no reason in the realm of logic to start Fitz Monday night.

 

That cardinals defense is ranked 4th against the pass btw

[joewilly12]

4 minutes ago, drdetroit said:

Literally no reason in the realm of logic to start Fitz Monday night.

 

That cardinals defense is ranked 4th against the pass btw

Why not we usually get annihilated on national tv games let the nation see Fitzpatrick up close and personal. 

[jack48]

On 10/14/2016 at 11:04 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

Nails it? lmao 

This is the justification for Fitzpatrick being the QB?

I'd like someone to list all the QBs that weren't "good enough win" while playing under the insanely narrow conditions of:

• matching up against weak opponents
• when aided by a "great" running game
• and a "great" defense
• while performing usually below average or horribly himself - and occasionally average - vs. "playoff teams"
• and for the sake of accuracy, I'll throw in those "playoff teams" will almost always need to be weakened to the tune of missing as many as 5 key starters or must be in temporary + general disarray.
• (should I further throw in ideal weather conditions and a top 3-5 pair of starting WRs?)

Brother if this was ever the justification to re-signing and starting Fitzpatrick, it is a very silly one. 

I can understand a guy not having arm strength.  That is nature.  But I cannot understand why a QB of 10 or so years who has played a lot, can still not lay a long pass in downfield that is within his range.  Fitz's timing is awful.  And once he gets behind, we might as well go home.

[drdetroit]

On October 15, 2016 at 9:11 AM, joewilly12 said:

Why not we usually get annihilated on national tv games let the nation see Fitzpatrick up close and personal. 

Woody deserves to be roasted in national TV.  Good point