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Pat Mahomes II

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46 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Not sure what you're point is - that no one is 100%? Coswell has a voice that people respect - cherry picking is for the birds. Beyond that - the point of that article is to shed some light on the reasons why there's lots of risk with Mahomes. The tiger-beat club here has been down right ridiculous in minimizing the concerns in his game.

Will he end up as an instant bust? I dunno. Hopefully not. He certainly sounds like a good kid who wants to do it right.

But so what? 

He has as horrible habits as there is possible, and almost none of the "highlights" translate to the NFL. I wouldn't touch him before round 3. 

yes that was basically my point. The concerns to Mahomes game are real, but Cossell, like most evaluators tend to sound like a broken record.

I am not saying we should draft him. I am saying I wouldn't lose my mind if we did. 

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Tomorrow is Mahomes Pro Day at Texas Tech, the Jets better have Mac, Bowles, Morton, and Bates on hand.

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On 3/24/2017 at 4:18 PM, Paradis said:

Not sure what you're point is - that no one is 100%? Coswell has a voice that people respect - cherry picking is for the birds. Beyond that - the point of that article is to shed some light on the reasons why there's lots of risk with Mahomes. The tiger-beat club here has been down right ridiculous in minimizing the concerns in his game.

Will he end up as an instant bust? I dunno. Hopefully not. He certainly sounds like a good kid who wants to do it right.

But so what? 

He has as horrible habits as there is possible, and almost none of the "highlights" translate to the NFL. I wouldn't touch him before round 3. 

Legit question and not trying to be snarky or take a jab but what's the difference between Pat Mahomes and someone you were head over heels in love with last year, Paxton Lynch? 

 

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13 minutes ago, JiF said:

Legit question and not trying to be snarky or take a jab but what's the difference between Pat Mahomes and someone you were head over heels in love with last year, Paxton Lynch? 

 

We dug into this question once in one of the many "I love Pat" threads over the past couple months. The short version? NFL throws into NFL windows. While both came from completely unrelateable NFL-offenses -- and consequently both need a lot work developing their game against NFL defenses, the big difference is Paxton made big time throws against NFL-calibre coverage and made quick reads when the primary wasn't there and did so with good ball placement. You see very little of that with Mahomes. 

People can argue all they want, but that's the primary reason Paxton was always mocked in in the 1st round, and why Mahomes needs essays written online to convince people why he should go in the 1st.

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This guy is the reason why GMs get fired . He has a strong arm and he's athletic .  I lived in NY for a tie, and I used to see kids in the park playing Basketball and would asked myself why those kids are no playing pro ball .  There's a reason why most sandlot ball players don't play pro ball .

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

We dug into this question once in one of the many "I love Pat" threads over the past couple months. The short version? NFL throws into NFL windows. While both came from completely unrelateable NFL-offenses -- and consequently both need a lot work developing their game against NFL defenses, the big difference is Paxton made big time throws against NFL-calibre coverage and made quick reads when the primary wasn't there and did so with good ball placement. You see very little of that with Mahomes. 

People can argue all they want, but that's the primary reason Paxton was always mocked in in the 1st round, and why Mahomes needs essays written online to convince people why he should go in the 1st.

Meh, I'm sure I could cherry pick "Big time NFL throws into NFL windows, vs. NFL caliber coverage" if we really wanted to with Mahomes.  The kid has a cannon.  He can do it.  Mahomes made a ton of quick reads too. Sure, he's got highlight reel of broken down plays where he creates but the offense is more about quick reads than most. I think Mahomes game is just harder to critique because so much of what he did was improvising and he doesnt have the NFL optics with funky deliveries and footwork.  

The conference matters too.  They literally dont know you're allowed to stop the other team in that conference.  The only starter it's ever produced is Sam Bradford.  So it's a hard conference to judge QB's out of.  Meanwhile, you got Villain drooling over Baker Mayfield throwing to wide open receivers after turning his back to the LOS and running around like a chicken with his head cut off.  At least with Lupz love for Mahomes, it's justified because Mahomes has some freakish talent you cant teach that is going to make some coaches fall in love.  Mayfield literally has really nothing to offer the NFL but will probably put up a Heisman campaign next year because his numbers will be absurd. 

 

 

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, JiF said:

Meh, I'm sure I could cherry pick "Big time NFL throws into NFL windows, vs. NFL caliber coverage" if we really wanted to with Mahomes.  The kid has a cannon.  He can do it.  Mahomes made a ton of quick reads too. Sure, he's got highlight reel of broken down plays where he creates but the offense is more about quick reads than most. I think Mahomes game is just harder to critique because so much of what he did was improvising and he doesnt have the NFL optics with funky deliveries and footwork.  

The conference matters too.  They literally dont know you're allowed to stop the other team in that conference.  The only starter it's ever produced is Sam Bradford.  So it's a hard conference to judge QB's out of.  Meanwhile, you got Villain drooling over Baker Mayfield throwing to wide open receivers after turning his back to the LOS and running around like a chicken with his head cut off.  At least with Lupz love for Mahomes, it's justified because Mahomes has some freakish talent you cant teach that is going to make some coaches fall in love.  Mayfield literally has really nothing to offer the NFL but will probably put up a Heisman campaign next year because his numbers will be absurd. 

It's not a "meh, i could cherry pick too" scenario JiF... it is what it is. Paxton was always graded as a round 1 QB. he was mocked anywhere from 1st overall, through till 28th throughout the 2015 season. I'm not making this sh*t up.... i hear what you're saying, but don't act like i'm pulling this out of my ass. Lynch made NFL throws. Jury's out on Mahomes, hence why replies like yours feel the need to qualify why his tape needs to be looked at like this or that. 

Their upsides are very similar, i'll give him that -- there's just more evidence with Lynch

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12 minutes ago, Paradis said:

It's not a "meh, i could cherry pick too" scenario JiF... it is what it is. Paxton was always graded as a round 1 QB. he was mocked anywhere from 1st overall, through till 28th throughout the 2015 season. I'm not making this sh*t up.... i hear what you're saying, but don't act like i'm pulling this out of my ass. Lynch made NFL throws. Jury's out on Mahomes, hence why replies like yours feel the need to qualify why his tape needs to be looked at like this or that. 

Their upsides are very similar, i'll give him that -- there's just more evidence with Lynch

There is plenty of evidence of Mahomes making NFL throws into NFL windows, (you choose to only look at the other stuff with Mahomes which leads to your position he is a mid round prospect at best developmental QB) there is also a ton of evidence of Mahomes making throws to wide open WR's in a gimmick offense, bad decision throws, and gun slinger mentality sand lot football throws, that is one difference between Mahomes, and Lynch, Lynch doesn't have the improvise skills Mahomes has, and played it much safer in college, I'd take Mahomes over Lynch for the main reason that when both are developed Mahomes will grade out at a much higher ceiling then Lynch, and has IMO an equal to slightly better chance to develop into a Franchise QB, and do it much quicker then most think (I don't see why Mahomes can't start week 1 this year if he develops, and works as hard at being a NFL starting QB as he says he will, and all evidence points to him not being just talk).

Also you might have missed it, but Lynch has a Jury still in session about him, and it's not looking very good, and has continued to get worse the longer they investigate, like you said he went from possibly the #1 overall pick to I'm desperate for a QB now let me reach for Lynch, to I can't beat out a 2nd year 7th round draft pick for the starting job, to oh man we gotta make a run at Tony Romo, and by the time he retires Lynch will be in year 4 the earliest, and basically be in the same situation Geno Smith was with the Jets last year, but worse because he won't have 20+ games of starting experience to draw from.

Mahomes on the other hand has went from a mid round prospect because nobody was actually looking, and then the Jury started their investigation, and he improved to being argued as the best QB in this class by some, and will probably get picked in a similar place as Lynch did possibly higher, the cases for both are going in different directions, Mahomes for the better, Lynch for the worse.

 

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36 minutes ago, Paradis said:

It's not a "meh, i could cherry pick too" scenario JiF... it is what it is. Paxton was always graded as a round 1 QB. he was mocked anywhere from 1st overall, through till 28th throughout the 2015 season. I'm not making this sh*t up.... i hear what you're saying, but don't act like i'm pulling this out of my ass. Lynch made NFL throws. Jury's out on Mahomes, hence why replies like yours feel the need to qualify why his tape needs to be looked at like this or that. 

Their upsides are very similar, i'll give him that -- there's just more evidence with Lynch

I'm not acting like you're pulling sh*t out of your ass.  I'm asking with sincerity because Mahomes is a bit of a polarizing figure.  And when I look at the 2 side by side, they seem very similar.  So I was trying to get your take since you were very passionate about Paxton Lynch.

That said, I think this take is just a little misguided.  I have a hard believing that a player with Mahomes arm talent who attempted over 11k passes in college, didnt make any NFL throws into NFL windows vs. NFL caliber coverage.  Now, if you're telling me Lynch had to more often than Mahomes which made him easier to evaluate when you watch the tape, then I get it.  That make sense.  

I honestly dont recall Lynch as a sure fire 1st round.  I remember him as a climber during the process.  I recall him being called "raw" but was popping up after a good season and the obvious tools he possess. 

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

I'm not acting like you're pulling sh*t out of your ass.  I'm asking with sincerity because Mahomes is a bit of a polarizing figure.  And when I look at the 2 side by side, they seem very similar.  So I was trying to get your take since you were very passionate about Paxton Lynch.

That said, I think this take is just a little misguided.  I have a hard believing that a player with Mahomes arm talent who attempted over 11k passes in college, didnt make any NFL throws into NFL windows vs. NFL caliber coverage.  Now, if you're telling me Lynch had to more often than Mahomes which made him easier to evaluate when you watch the tape, then I get it.  That make sense.  

I honestly dont recall Lynch as a sure fire 1st round.  I remember him as a climber during the process.  I recall him being called "raw" but was popping up after a good season and the obvious tools he possess. 

He was a sure fire round 1 guy pretty much from october and beyond. One of the unsung accolades of Lynch's resume was his year to year to progression from freshman to junior. Continuous improvement. 

The Mahomes song starts and ends with arm talent. That's all I hear about. Arm talent this and arm talent that. Look, I'm not trying to say he's a bust or dog sh*t. I hope he becomes a full time gangster in the NFL cause he's 8000x more exciting to watch than another Kirk Cousins. That said, I'm not convinced chances are better than 50/50. He didn't make a lot great throws on time to WRs in coverage. He makes some nice touch bases downfield that make for great highlights, but the important stuff that has to happen on time and with accurate ball placement.... really touch and go. Relied alot on their system. 

Should be a fun journey to follow. Just not one i'd spend a top 60 pick on. 

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There is plenty of evidence of Mahomes making NFL throws into NFL windows, (you choose to only look at the other stuff with Mahomes which leads to your position he is a mid round prospect at best developmental QB) there is also a ton of evidence of Mahomes making throws to wide open WR's in a gimmick offense, bad decision throws, and gun slinger mentality sand lot football throws, that is one difference between Mahomes, and Lynch, Lynch doesn't have the improvise skills Mahomes has, and played it much safer in college, I'd take Mahomes over Lynch for the main reason that when both are developed Mahomes will grade out at a much higher ceiling then Lynch, and has IMO an equal to slightly better chance to develop into a Franchise QB, and do it much quicker then most think (I don't see why Mahomes can't start week 1 this year if he develops, and works as hard at being a NFL starting QB as he says he will, and all evidence points to him not being just talk).

Also you might have missed it, but Lynch has a Jury still in session about him, and it's not looking very good, and has continued to get worse the longer they investigate, like you said he went from possibly the #1 overall pick to I'm desperate for a QB now let me reach for Lynch, to I can't beat out a 2nd year 7th round draft pick for the starting job, to oh man we gotta make a run at Tony Romo, and by the time he retires Lynch will be in year 4 the earliest, and basically be in the same situation Geno Smith was with the Jets last year, but worse because he won't have 20+ games of starting experience to draw from.

Mahomes on the other hand has went from a mid round prospect because nobody was actually looking, and then the Jury started their investigation, and he improved to being argued as the best QB in this class by some, and will probably get picked in a similar place as Lynch did possibly higher, the cases for both are going in different directions, Mahomes for the better, Lynch for the worse.

 

Im tired of listening to your bullsh*t narratives. Clearly you don't need to convince me, you're way ahead of paid scouts in the NFL who were grossly mistaken about both Lynch and Mahomes. 

 

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

I tired of listening to your bullsh*t narratives. You can tell someone else who cares. Clearly you don't need to convince me, you're way ahead of paid scouts in the NFL who were grossly mistaken about both Lynch and Mahomes. 

You know, you get more flies with honey, etc. etc.....

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You know, you get more flies with honey, etc. etc.....

Thanks for picking that post to quote me on for the first time in 4 months.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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fwiw

Tony Pauline‏ @TonyPauline 

New York Jets showing strong interest in Patrick Mahomes http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-march-31

 

Texas Tech is the big pro day on today’s schedule as Patrick Mahomes will be throwing for NFL teams.  We’ll also be keeping a close eye on West Virginia where Shelton Gibson is expected to run again for scouts.

The 40’s are being run and we’d expect the passing workout to start in about 30 minutes.  I can tell you Patrick Mahomes met with the San Francisco 49ers last night and also spent a good amount of time with the New York Giants.

I can also tell you the New York Jets have strong interest in Mahomes but I was asked not to go any further.

Thus far I’m told Wade Wilson, Joe Lombardi and Randy Fichtner are some of the coaches on hand.

http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-march-31

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1 hour ago, C Mart said:

fwiw

Tony Pauline‏ @TonyPauline 

New York Jets showing strong interest in Patrick Mahomes http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-march-31

 

Texas Tech is the big pro day on today’s schedule as Patrick Mahomes will be throwing for NFL teams.  We’ll also be keeping a close eye on West Virginia where Shelton Gibson is expected to run again for scouts.

The 40’s are being run and we’d expect the passing workout to start in about 30 minutes.  I can tell you Patrick Mahomes met with the San Francisco 49ers last night and also spent a good amount of time with the New York Giants.

I can also tell you the New York Jets have strong interest in Mahomes but I was asked not to go any further.

Thus far I’m told Wade Wilson, Joe Lombardi and Randy Fichtner are some of the coaches on hand.

http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-march-31

From Pauline's article to Roger Goddells mouth to my ears draft day!

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6 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

From Pauline's article to Roger Goddells mouth to my ears draft day!

I gonna start praying 🙏 my friend, let's see if this team finnally gets this position RIGTH!! Let's get Mahomes!!!!

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On 3/31/2017 at 8:22 PM, Lgm ny jets said:

I gonna start praying 🙏 my friend, let's see if this team finnally gets this position RIGTH!! Let's get Mahomes!!!!

I definitely wouldn't complain if we got Mahomes in either the 2nd round or even the 1st assuming we trade down.  Sounds like he'll need a year or two to develop but let's at least get some promising young guys into the pipeline.  If we pick 1st overall next year then still grab Darnold.  If not though, then we have Hack and maybe Mahomes too.  Seems almost impossible to win the Superbowl without at least a very good QB so I think it would be worth it to take a shot at him.

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20 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I definitely wouldn't complain if we got Mahomes in either the 2nd round or even the 1st assuming we trade down.  Sounds like he'll need a year or two to develop but let's at least get some promising young guys into the pipeline.  If we pick 1st overall next year then still grab Darnold.  If not though, then we have Hack and maybe Mahomes too.  Seems almost impossible to win the Superbowl without at least a very good QB so I think it would be worth it to take a shot at him.

Remember it isn't as easy as people think to get the #1 pick n draft Darnold. People say oh worst thing that can happen is we stink n draft Darnold next year. What happens if there is a team that plays worst than the Jets n they end up with a higher pick n so happen to be looking for a QB? Then Darnold would be gone before we pick. I say if there is a QB at 6 that you believe has the potential of becoming an Elite QB you draft him. That is what Mahomes has the highest upside of any QB in this draft, I say you get him at 6 and you don't think twice about it. He can make incredible happen, you can see it on tape. If he takes coaching he can win superbowls in the NFL, that is the type of talent he has, talent that does not come around often.

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59 minutes ago, Lgm ny jets said:

Remember it isn't as easy as people think to get the #1 pick n draft Darnold. People say oh worst thing that can happen is we stink n draft Darnold next year. What happens if there is a team that plays worst than the Jets n they end up with a higher pick n so happen to be looking for a QB? Then Darnold would be gone before we pick. I say if there is a QB at 6 that you believe has the potential of becoming an Elite QB you draft him. That is what Mahomes has the highest upside of any QB in this draft, I say you get him at 6 and you don't think twice about it. He can make incredible happen, you can see it on tape. If he takes coaching he can win superbowls in the NFL, that is the type of talent he has, talent that does not come around often.

I hear you on all levels.  There's another side of this too btw.  If Mahomes either needs a year then it'll be like we get no productivity out of our 1st pick this year.  That helps us in the Darnold chase.  I'm 100% with you though that the odds are not great that we pick 1st overall next year.  We're likely in the mix for that but the Jets tend to win meaningless games.

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On 4/6/2017 at 10:03 PM, TuscanyTile2 said:

I definitely wouldn't complain if we got Mahomes in either the 2nd round or even the 1st assuming we trade down.  Sounds like he'll need a year or two to develop but let's at least get some promising young guys into the pipeline.  If we pick 1st overall next year then still grab Darnold.  If not though, then we have Hack and maybe Mahomes too.  Seems almost impossible to win the Superbowl without at least a very good QB so I think it would be worth it to take a shot at him.

I'd be pretty happy with taking Mike Williams at #6, and then packaging our second round pick with Sheldon to move back into the first to get Mahomes. 

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On 4/11/2017 at 8:46 AM, sourceworx said:

I'd be pretty happy with taking Mike Williams at #6, and then packaging our second round pick with Sheldon to move back into the first to get Mahomes. 

I would be okay with getting Mahomes, and if we could do it in the scenario above that would be great. 

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At the end of the day, you can make reads or you can't. This guy is like a 6'5 Manziel playing QB. He's fun to watch and has intriguing measurables, but QB is a position you need pocket awareness and the ability to make reads in the NFL. 

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17 hours ago, Mecca said:

At the end of the day, you can make reads or you can't. This guy is like a 6'5 Manziel playing QB. He's fun to watch and has intriguing measurables, but QB is a position you need pocket awareness and the ability to make reads in the NFL. 

I don't get the Manziel comparisons with Mahomes other than he is mobile enough to escape. He doesn't prefer to run. I don't feel he is a careless as Manziel. The better comparison is literally Brett Favre in college. 

I didn't like Manziel coming out of A&M, but I do like Mahomes as a QB prospect. Get his footwork under control and bring him along slowly, similar to Russell Wilson and I think you have a top 10 QB in 3-4 Years. My opinion and I am prepared to get blasted for saying it. I could be wrong.

I loved Wilson when he was coming out, same with Mariota, and Derek Carr, I also like Paxton Lynch... so what do I know.   

 

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5 hours ago, Stark said:

I don't get the Manziel comparisons with Mahomes other than he is mobile enough to escape. He doesn't prefer to run. I don't feel he is a careless as Manziel. The better comparison is literally Brett Favre in college. 

I didn't like Manziel coming out of A&M, but I do like Mahomes as a QB prospect. Get his footwork under control and bring him along slowly, similar to Russell Wilson and I think you have a top 10 QB in 3-4 Years. My opinion and I am prepared to get blasted for saying it. I could be wrong.

I loved Wilson when he was coming out, same with Mariota, and Derek Carr, I also like Paxton Lynch... so what do I know.   

 

The Manziel comparison is more along the lines of how they make plays.  Both have a propensity to extend plays and then take shots down field.  A lot of their highlights come from after the intended play-call has run its course and they are improvising.  To really see the differences between the players you need to watch the "non-espn-top-10" game film.  There you can see the difference between Mahomes and Manziel.  Interesting to note, Kingsbury has coached both of them, so the similarities may be due to the coaching.  

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6 hours ago, Stark said:

I don't get the Manziel comparisons with Mahomes other than he is mobile enough to escape. He doesn't prefer to run. I don't feel he is a careless as Manziel. The better comparison is literally Brett Favre in college. 

I didn't like Manziel coming out of A&M, but I do like Mahomes as a QB prospect. Get his footwork under control and bring him along slowly, similar to Russell Wilson and I think you have a top 10 QB in 3-4 Years. My opinion and I am prepared to get blasted for saying it. I could be wrong.

I loved Wilson when he was coming out, same with Mariota, and Derek Carr, I also like Paxton Lynch... so what do I know.   

 

Except, when you break down his tape, he never made pro reads. The NFL is all about making reads and progressions. People wanna say Brett Favre because he's reckless with a cannon. 

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17 hours ago, Mecca said:

Except, when you break down his tape, he never made pro reads. The NFL is all about making reads and progressions. People wanna say Brett Favre because he's reckless with a cannon. 

Your watching the wrong tape then.

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Just now, Lupz27 said:

Your watching the wrong tape then.

Except I'm not. I watched 3 full games. Decision making is questionable at the pro level. Opts for the risky pass over the safe pass almost all the time. Not a 1st round prospect at all.

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On 4/19/2017 at 10:10 AM, Mecca said:

Except I'm not. I watched 3 full games. Decision making is questionable at the pro level. Opts for the risky pass over the safe pass almost all the time. Not a 1st round prospect at all.

You can't just watch 3 games n have a complete picture of Mahomes. Go watch every game of his junior year, he just had one bad game vs Iowa State n he was playing hurt. Every other game he gave his team a chance to win n his defense let them down. As to making NFL reads, if being able to manipulate linebackers n safeties with his eyes in order to complete a deep ball or post route is not part of making NFL reads, I don't know what you talking about. Mahomes does this, which is something Watson strugles with n even Mitch Trubisky. Mahomes also does not bite when DLinemen drop back in coverage, he scrambles and finds the right opening on the defense. He scrambles always with his eyes downfield looking to throw, which is something very hard to do.

If you don't like the guy that is fine, but don't say he don't make NFL reads, cause he does. News flash, if he was overrated the NFL scouts would have killed him by now, and everybody would know he is a bust. But the opposite has happen almost every NFL team likes him and it is a fact not an opinion, that he is the player with the hottest draft stock. No other player's stock is as high as Mahomes, you know why? Cause he is the real deal, period.

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3 hours ago, Lgm ny jets said:

You can't just watch 3 games n have a complete picture of Mahomes. Go watch every game of his junior year, he just had one bad game vs Iowa State n he was playing hurt. Every other game he gave his team a chance to win n his defense let them down. As to making NFL reads, if being able to manipulate linebackers n safeties with his eyes in order to complete a deep ball or post route is not part of making NFL reads, I don't know what you talking about. Mahomes does this, which is something Watson strugles with n even Mitch Trubisky. Mahomes also does not bite when DLinemen drop back in coverage, he scrambles and finds the right opening on the defense. He scrambles always with his eyes downfield looking to throw, which is something very hard to do.

If you don't like the guy that is fine, but don't say he don't make NFL reads, cause he does. News flash, if he was overrated the NFL scouts would have killed him by now, and everybody would know he is a bust. But the opposite has happen almost every NFL team likes him and it is a fact not an opinion, that he is the player with the hottest draft stock. No other player's stock is as high as Mahomes, you know why? Cause he is the real deal, period.

Wish I could rep this more.

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Mahomes is either gonna be horrible or an all star. I dont see a middle ground for him. Im scared to draft him in the first, and equally as scared for one of our rivals to get him and watch him light it up.

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1 hour ago, Adoni Beast said:

Mahomes is either gonna be horrible or an all star. I dont see a middle ground for him. Im scared to draft him in the first, and equally as scared for one of our rivals to get him and watch him light it up.

I say draft him and lets find out.

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Just now, Stark said:

I say draft him and lets find out.

New Jets fan draft slogan for 2017:

Cahones for Mahomes.

If Mac drafts him. Ill give him credit for having a huge set of balls.

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10 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Wish I could rep this more.

If you're going to sit here and tell me that TT runs a pro style offense with progressions and reads, you're straight up manufacturing information out of thin air. I watched his tape. He's a sexy prospect because he has tools, but to say TT forced complicated reads that made you read the defense is straight up false.

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25 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

New Jets fan draft slogan for 2017:

Cahones for Mahomes.

If Mac drafts him. Ill give him credit for having a huge set of balls.

ha, yeah it would be gutsy, but who doesn't have risk at QB in this draft? they all do so take the kid with all the high level physical tools that does more on the field than most people think.

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