Player Discipline and Coaching

[jamesr]

A lot has been written on this board about discipline under Bowles, in light of the stories emerging about Sheldon & Mo skipping meetings / turning up late. I'm curious to see whether people believe that this is down to Bowles being slack, or down to the situation he inherited from Rex.

 

[OH THE PAIN]

WE HAVE NONE .

[LIJetsFan]

No one got a broken jaw under Rex.  Jury is still out.  Rex had a longer honeymoon.  

[Skeptable]

I think its neither... I think Rex the players did what they want... now only some do what they want but its still tolerated... That is the issue... in 2 years Bowles has not fixed it. That is a problem... Also I never saw people give up on plays with Rex... with Bowles... too many to count.

[FidelioJet]

I think it's not so much discipline as it is lack of respect.   There seems to be little respect for Bowles...Over the past two years there are a number of examples of not respecting the man.

[rangerous]

bowles takes rex players plus marshall and fitz and some key free agents like revis, skrine and gilchrist and delivers a 10-6 season.  now that same group goes 3-8 on the way to maybe 6-10. the main difference is losing brick, ivory, cro, snacks, pace and adding clady, mcclendon, forte, and a host of rookies.  in addition the team loses decker, clady doesn't work out, richardson stirs things up, revis declines due to injury, wilk maybe hasn't recovered from his leg, smith still hasn't recovered, and so on.

is it coaching?  all teams suffer through injuries but all of the good teams are able to plug in depth players to fill those holes. the things that are not in bowles favor are the large number of nagging injuries and the missed meeting(s) by key vets.  maybe he has lost their attention or maybe his assistants aren't doing their job.

[Larz]

he set the tone 2 ways;

not disciplining sheldumb when he had him dead to rights

sticking with fitz after the chiefs game

they just don't give a sh*t anymore and know he is a temp

[phill1c]

37 minutes ago, rangerous said:

bowles takes rex players plus marshall and fitz and some key free agents like revis, skrine and gilchrist and delivers a 10-6 season.

Wow, add a kicker and it's hardly "rex's" players. I mean, you mentioned a starting QB, a starting WR, two corners and a safety, all starters. And, of course, you kinda failed to mentioned the cream puff nature of the schedule.

But, let's face it, Rex's last team was, like, half a team.

I don't think it's a Rex hankering, but Todd Bowles just does nothing for me. His apparent lack of innovational skills, rigid reliance on LOSERS, and overall passivity turn me off.

[rangerous]

4 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Wow, add a kicker and it's hardly "rex's" players. I mean, you mentioned a starting QB, a starting WR, two corners and a safety, all starters. And, of course, you kinda failed to mentioned the cream puff nature of the schedule.

But, let's face it, Rex's last team was, like, half a team.

I don't think it's a Rex hankering, but Todd Bowles just does nothing for me. His apparent lack of innovational skills, rigid reliance on LOSERS, and overall passivity turn me off.

there are no cream puff schedules in the nfl.  as for rex's players, well yes.  the guys like wilk, sheldon, pryor, geno are rex's players. i know it's not the same as all 22 starters but that still doesn't overlook the fact that rex left a certain attitude in the locker room and bowles changed it.  and if you want to credit the players that mac brought in for last season, then why are they being pummeled this season?  it's not one simple thing. ultimately it stops with bowles especially since he's got equal stature with mac.

[De-Jet-Erate/Duane]

36 minutes ago, Larz said:

he set the tone 2 ways;

not disciplining sheldumb when he had him dead to rights

sticking with fitz after the chiefs game

they just don't give a sh*t anymore and know he is a temp

I agree with everything you say here. But Bowels is on record as saying he wants to stick with Fitz because of the vets. Maybe he is way off base when understanding the true tone in the locker room.

[Joe W. Namath]

Here is a scary thought.  If Bowles gets fired on black monday, what team hires him as a head coach?

Answer - None

Even Herm, mangini and rex got a head gig after coaching us.  This guy sucks.

 

[Lupz27]

The second choice answer in the poll says it all, the players just haven't bought in 100% on the defensive side of the ball IMO, and we all know the QB is the problem on the offensive side.  Say what you want about Rex, but in 09, and 10 everyone bought into what Rex was selling, unfortunately somewhere in the 2011 season the buying into went to far, and the veterans were gone, and the inmates were allowed to run the asylum.

[SOJ]

2 hours ago, rangerous said:

bowles takes rex players plus marshall and fitz and some key free agents like revis, skrine and gilchrist and delivers a 10-6 season.  now that same group goes 3-8 on the way to maybe 6-10. the main difference is losing brick, ivory, cro, snacks, pace and adding clady, mcclendon, forte, and a host of rookies.  in addition the team loses decker, clady doesn't work out, richardson stirs things up, revis declines due to injury, wilk maybe hasn't recovered from his leg, smith still hasn't recovered, and so on.

is it coaching?  all teams suffer through injuries but all of the good teams are able to plug in depth players to fill those holes. the things that are not in bowles favor are the large number of nagging injuries and the missed meeting(s) by key vets.  maybe he has lost their attention or maybe his assistants aren't doing their job.

 Makes a lot of sense but the problem is the HC.  I read recently where the REX attitude lingers so that is certainly part of the problem.  However, the HC sets the tone for the team and the tone is a morgue.  This team plays unemotionally flat the majority of time and IMHO he lost the team when he continued to play Fitz after 6 ints and followed that up with 3 more the following week.  I do not buy for one second that he is playing him because of the Vets in the LR... he is trying to hide the abysmal coaching job his coaches and he has done.   He should be fired for incompetence and Woody should let Mac hire the next coach and have him report to him... with a clean plan to win games by X each year.   

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

The second choice answer in the poll says it all, the players just haven't bought in 100% on the defensive side of the ball IMO, and we all know the QB is the problem on the offensive side.  Say what you want about Rex, but in 09, and 10 everyone bought into what Rex was selling, unfortunately somewhere in the 2011 season the buying into went to far, and the veterans were gone, and the inmates were allowed to run the asylum.

The defense is old and has a bunch of dudes on their last contract. It's not a coincidence the effort sucks overall.

[bealeb319]

Didn't Geno Smith go see a movie and forget to set an alarm missing a meeting with Rex and there was no accountability for it?

[Kleckineau]

Ryan vs Bowles Ryan vs Bowles Ryan vs Bowles Ryan vs Bowles blah blah blah bla blah.

To borrow an often repeated quote....What difference does it make?

Its our Jets and nothing has changed results wise so what exactly is the point arguing who is the better HC.

 

[jamesr]

15 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

Ryan vs Bowles Ryan vs Bowles Ryan vs Bowles Ryan vs Bowles blah blah blah bla blah.

To borrow an often repeated quote....What difference does it make?

Its our Jets and nothing has changed results wise so what exactly is the point arguing who is the better HC.

 

My point in starting this thread was that people see Bowles as the problem as far as discipline goes, and want to use that as a reason to fire him. Regardless of his other faults, i don't think you fire him because of the lingering after-effects of a previous regime.

Picture this - players get used to dogging it; new coach comes in and tries to change the culture, gets fired because some of the players don't like it. What next? Players don't like the new coach, they continue dog it and make sure he gets fired too. that's infectious.

The coach has to be in charge of the locker room, not the players. If the owner lets the players call the shots, we're doomed to continue on as we have done for so many years. Find the guys who are dogging it, and spell it out to them - shape up, or ship out. Anyone who doesn't buy in, get rid if them. I know it's often mocked, but the "Patriot Way" doesn't put up with this sort of sh!t. Nether should the Jets.

[Lith]

I believe discipline was poor under Rex.  I was thrilled when he was let go and thought it was probably a year or two overdue.  But I am not buying an argument that absolves Bowles of accountability.  He has been the guy for almost two full years.  If he has not instilled discipline in the team by this point, that is on him.  Not Rex.  

[varjet]

15 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Here is a scary thought.  If Bowles gets fired on black monday, what team hires him as a head coach?

Answer - None

Even Herm, mangini and rex got a head gig after coaching us.  This guy sucks.

 

I think people in the NFL see an Jets organization that is confused and messed up, and see Bowles do a decent job has a 1st year head coach and a horrible job as a 2nd year. Some will wonder if the Jets organization is just a black hole to avoid.

If Woody wants to run a real organization that he will likely eventually sell (he is 70), he like Hess has to straighten out the organization.  They need to give Bowles and Macc another year and show the league that they fixed the structure and provided them the support to be successful.  If the roster is unbalanced next year as it is this year, and if the team is obviously unprepared, undiscipline and badly coached, one or both of them should be fired with their year's severance.  Someone will take the job to replace at least Bowles if they feel that the organization has added talent and that the prior hires were given a fair chance.

I think Bowles and staff got the joke and coached a credible game against the Patriots.   They are still playing players that appear to have given up, and who may have even cost them the game.  Hopefully it is not Woody tellling Bowles to play Revis and Mo.   If Bowles wants to save his long-term future, he should bench the stiffs.  Revis should be cut in 2017. Mo can heal and play for his 2018 contract.  Fitz should backup after the Jets are eliminated.

[drsamuel84]

Just because Bowles has turned out to have some major question marks in year 2 doesn't make Rex a better coach than he was.  I appreciate what Rex did here with the back 2 back AFC championships but he and Tanny proved they were not capable of building a sustainable winner as we didn't only regress after those two years, we fell off a cliff.  Rex brought some great qualities and at the end of the day I believe he's a better DEFENSIVE coach than Bowles but it's not like he's lighting up the league since going to Buffalo.  Sure, he was in a no win situation with Idzik but it was time for a change.

[phill1c]

R

24 minutes ago, varjet said:

I think Bowles and staff got the joke and coached a credible game against the Patriots.  

Hmm,

I think he coached the same as he always does: ineffectually.

I think the FG attempt was a bad move: he should have either gone for it (the move with the most balls and the most to gain) or punted, which is a conservative but much safer move. The FG attempt, given the history of Folk FG attempts against NE from this distance, almost certainly blocked or missed. So, a risky move that really lacked serious benefit. Ultimately, it failed.

The Jets played ok, keeping the game close, but, really, is that what we're supposed to be satisfied with?

There were no wrinkles. Nothing particularly remarkable.

The Jets kept it close, mostly because Brady seemed disinterested and they were missing their main receiving weapons. And, when it came down to crunch time the defense let Brady walk down the field and score.

No, he made no obvious mistakes that you could say blew the game. But, really, 17 points at home and losing to the Pats after a bye week, when they didn't have most of their weapons really is not credible, IMO.

[Ex-Rex]

On 11/30/2016 at 7:35 AM, jamesr said:

A lot has been written on this board about discipline under Bowles, in light of the stories emerging about Sheldon & Mo skipping meetings / turning up late. I'm curious to see whether people believe that this is down to Bowles being slack, or down to the situation he inherited from Rex.

 

That is an interesting thought, but this is NOT Bowles first season, it is his second. You didn't have these things happening last year, or at least they weren't reported. Now the team is in a tailspin and these stories pop up. Not sure you can blame Rex's lack of discipline to Bowles committment to having discipline. As HC you lay down the law and those who break the law are punished accordingly. Bowles IMO, is walking a fine line between wanting to be a 'player's coach' and being a disciplinarian.

[Ex-Rex]

24 minutes ago, phill1c said:

R

Hmm,

I think he coached the same as he always does: ineffectually.

I think the FG attempt was a bad move: he should have either gone for it (the move with the most balls and the most to gain) or punted, which is a conservative but much safer move. The FG attempt, given the history of Folk FG attempts against NE from this distance, almost certainly blocked or missed. So, a risky move that really lacked serious benefit. Ultimately, it failed.

The Jets played ok, keeping the game close, but, really, is that what we're supposed to be satisfied with?

There were no wrinkles. Nothing particularly remarkable.

The Jets kept it close, mostly because Brady seemed disinterested and they were missing their main receiving weapons. And, when it came down to crunch time the defense let Brady walk down the field and score.

No, he made no obvious mistakes that you could say blew the game. But, really, 17 points at home and losing to the Pats after a bye week, when they didn't have most of their weapons really is not credible, IMO.

I agree. The FG attempt was 'grasping at straws' IMO. I would have gone for it, and saved the seven yards you go back for the FGA. Smetimes a coach has got to put himself out there and make a bold move. This is something they should have prepared for and had a plan for, especially coming off a bye. BB would have had something special for the Jets if he had two weeks to prepare for sure. Let's put this argument in the Fire Bowles bin, and I second it.

[varjet]

1 hour ago, Ex-Rex said:

I agree. The FG attempt was 'grasping at straws' IMO. I would have gone for it, and saved the seven yards you go back for the FGA. Smetimes a coach has got to put himself out there and make a bold move. This is something they should have prepared for and had a plan for, especially coming off a bye. BB would have had something special for the Jets if he had two weeks to prepare for sure. Let's put this argument in the Fire Bowles bin, and I second it.

I said "credible," not good, impressive or great.

If he coached that well in the other 10 games, we probably would have another win or 2.  He is still not showing the signs of being a good coach.   

At this point I think the Jets give the 2 of them another year but rethink structure and staffing/support, UNLESS a proven HC/Team shows up at their door.

Given their structure/track record, to fire Bowles and possibly Mac and try and hire the consultants and hire another one or two first time/learn on the job HC/GMs, I am pretty certain we would get the same result.  To hire a first time GM and HC and expect them to look to Woody and Neil Glat for leadership/mentorship/guidance/direction was completely moronic.

[Kleckineau]

7 hours ago, jamesr said:

My point in starting this thread was that people see Bowles as the problem as far as discipline goes, and want to use that as a reason to fire him. Regardless of his other faults, i don't think you fire him because of the lingering after-effects of a previous regime.

Picture this - players get used to dogging it; new coach comes in and tries to change the culture, gets fired because some of the players don't like it. What next? Players don't like the new coach, they continue dog it and make sure he gets fired too. that's infectious.

The coach has to be in charge of the locker room, not the players. If the owner lets the players call the shots, we're doomed to continue on as we have done for so many years. Find the guys who are dogging it, and spell it out to them - shape up, or ship out. Anyone who doesn't buy in, get rid if them. I know it's often mocked, but the "Patriot Way" doesn't put up with this sort of sh!t. Nether should the Jets.

Your point is well taken and I didnt mean to be dismissive of it however I prefer boiling things down to its simplest form so I would just say Bowles and Ryan both suck but for dfferent reasons.

[ASH1962]

I feel like I am taking my SAT again. I don't give a rats patoot which is true and correct. We suck. We are going 3-13. Bowltite is a zombie. I want a new CS.

Thank you - this has been a public service announcement.

Good night

 

LOL

PS Fitz is the starter because he gives us the best chance to win.

[phill1c]

5 minutes ago, ASH1962 said:

I feel like I am taking my SAT again. I don't give a rats patoot which is true and correct. We suck. We are going 3-13. Bowltite is a zombie. I want a new CS.

Thank you - this has been a public service announcement.

Good night

 

LOL

PS Fitz is the starter because he gives us the best chance to win.

Then you just contradicted yourself.

Keeping Fitz as the starter is exactly the type of "zombie" coaching move you say you hate. BUT, he does give us the best shot at going 3-13...

[phill1c]

4 hours ago, varjet said:

I said "credible," not good, impressive or great

If credible is not "good, impressive or great" then it's something less than good, which is bad.

[flgreen]

Except from the few stories that have been leaked by the press, I really have no idea who is missing/late for meeting, and who isn't.   I will say this, from what I have observed, Rex usually seemed to be able to get his players up to play with some fire.  Bowles team seems to play with the same demeanor as the HC personality.