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Good post, but I think you missed the biggest issue of all: Cons He has lost control of the locker room and it is clear that there is no discipline, no self-respect, and no passion for the

So I was going to write an article. But I figured I would include all of you in the discussion. I don't think Todd Bowles should be fired. If your reply is going to be irate, anger filled and 2 or 3 w

By the way, stating that Todd has "held players accountable" makes me question my understanding of the word "accountable".   Fitz, worst QB in the league. Todd Bowles reaction? "Ryan is our

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I'd add as another positive for Bowles being that he's handled adversity fairly well. I felt he handled the Geno/IK incident extremely well last year. 

I pretty much agree with everything you posted.  I think he needs to replace the entire defensive coaching staff. I'd mentioned in another thread a few defensive assistants that I think would be good moves for Bowles to make:

- If the Bears fire John Fox and his staff, bring in Vic Fangio as D-Coordinator.
- Bring back Karl Dunbar to coach toe D-Line. I felt he did a great job when he was here. He's also available.
- Mike Singletary is still without a real coaching job. Bring him in to coach the LBs.
 

On offense, I think you still need to keep Gailey. Changing systems on the two young QBs may do more harm than good.

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4 minutes ago, Maxman said:

So I was going to write an article. But I figured I would include all of you in the discussion. I don't think Todd Bowles should be fired. If your reply is going to be irate, anger filled and 2 or 3 words calling for him to go, please do that in one of the other 20 threads on that topic. 

I think Bowles should stay and have next year be the deciding factor. Here are the pros and cons.

Cons

  • He was 100% wrong on Ryan Fitzpatrick. From naming him the starter after the last game last year when he wasn't under contract to handing him the minute he showed up right as camp was starting, it was clearly a mistake.
  • His in game management has left a lot to be desired. This might be an understatement. There is a long list from how Chris Ivory was used late last season, to time outs being thrown away this year. 
  • There have been so many "communication issues" on defense that it is clearly a pattern. When that happens it is on the head coach. The message isn't getting across, that is on him.

Pros

  • He does what he thinks is right. People consider this a negative, but this is actually his greatest positive. We have been screaming for QB changes because he was wrong on Fitzpatrick. But he did go to Geno earlier in the season. He was slow to go to Petty, but Petty needs work. He didn't listen to the rants calling for him to move, he wanted to make sure Petty was 100% healthy and as close to being ready as possible. The easy way out would have been playing Petty earlier, but that might not have been in Petty's long term best interests. So he held off. Really have to commend him for that because you watch your head coach to not be reactionary.
  • Accountability. There is more work to be done here, but he does hold players accountable. Wilkerson and Richardson were benched. Sheldon is seeing his snap count decrease. This is a coach that isn't afraid to send a message to his star players.
  • The guy knows the game. Everyone will laugh at this because it is easy to say otherwise. But he played in the league. He has coached since then and he has been a successful coordinator in the league. He has the experience, yet he is young enough to still learn more and improve.

There are obviously more pros and cons, feel free to add your thoughts. But my Conclusion is that:

  • Bowels should come back and be graded on next season. The demise of Ryan Fitzpatrick was easy to see coming. Big hit on Bowles and Macc for not being on the right side of that decision. What wasn't as easy to see coming was the complete drop off of Darrelle Revis. He wasn't Revis Island last season, but aside from his wrist injury he was still good. This season is a different story and there was no way to see this drop off coming all in one season. Factor in the lack of depth in the secondary behind him and you have a cornerback problem of epic proportion. He should get another shot to prove that he can build a top defense here.
  • Kacy Rodgers has to be fired. It isn't working out. He was never a Defensive Coordinator before he got here and this defense has so many issues. You have to make a change here.
  • Let's see how the QB situation plays out. We will know a lot more about Petty after the next four weeks. Is he in the mix for next season? Is he not in the mix? Is Hackenberg progressing? We don't know those answers right now, but pulling the plug on this rebuilding process would be a mistake.

Yes, this has been a rebuilding process even thought they have signed free agents. There haven't been many contracts that Macc has handed out that will really cripple the Jets Mike Tannenbaum style long term. Wilkerson has to improve. Revis won't have the same salary next year, or he won't be back. But this has been a rebuilding process, they just got slightly sidetracked with a 30 plus TD season from Fitzpatrick last year. 

The easy way didn't work out but they are in this for the long haul. We should give them some time, switching coaches and GMs every few years isn't working out. Bowels can improve, he can learn from this. Let's see how we feel next year, let's see if they can collectively develop a QB. Because let's be truthful, not much is going to matter until they solve that problem.

Thoughts? Again, I am trying to move beyond the "He has to go". Or "The stadium has $6 seats, we are a joke" kind of posts. Let's dig deep here and make your case, good or bad, for Todd Bowles.

 

Nice post Max! Bowels has shown many flaws and has made alot of head scratching decisions but I do believe he has upside. I agree Rodgers has to go, that defense is awful. We also need some body to help bring these Qb's along. The biggest problem I would have with getting rid of Bowles is who would you replace him with? Some people throw names around but realistically who is going to be a guaranteed up grade? Gruden, Cowher those guys are not looking to coach and if they were probably would'nt come here with better offers that would be given to them. 

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8 minutes ago, De-Jet-Erate/Duane said:

Nice post Max! Bowels has shown many flaws and has made alot of head scratching decisions but I do believe he has upside. I agree Rodgers has to go, that defense is awful. We also need some body to help bring these Qb's along. The biggest problem I would have with getting rid of Bowles is who would you replace him with? Some people throw names around but realistically who is going to be a guaranteed up grade? Gruden, Cowher those guys are not looking to coach and if they were probably would'nt come here with better offers that would be given to them. 

I think the only way the Jets should replace Bowles is if they go with an experienced head coach.  A Gruden or Coughlin type. They can't go (yet again) with the hot coordinator du jour, and then get pissed when he makes rookie mistakes.    

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I'm not totally against giving him another year,  but I don't think he'll improve.   He is not going to fire Kacy Rogers.   He is so conservative I think this game has passed him by.   His last boss is anything but conservative,  but not of that moxy has rubbed off on him.   

Biggest reason to move on from Bowles (correct spelling)   is that this defensive guru's defense sucks. 

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I think it's way to early to pull the plug on Bowles.  Coming off the year Fitz had last year I think it was reasonable wanting him back for one more year.  He had all his receivers returning, he was working with a system he knew very well, and the Jets seemed set up to be a contender. Fitz played great last year so I don't fault Bowles or Mac for that.  His game management has been disappointing, mostly for how conservative he is even late in games.  I don't know if that will change, that seems to be his nature, but some coaches win that way.  Revis's game falling off a cliff, Mo not playing well ( I think his leg was not 100%), the OL being hit by many injuries, that is all stuff that was difficult to predict.  I think Mac is a good GM and I believe he will improve the personnel going forward.  Hopefully  Petty will provide good QB play or they will find a stop gap next year, and the young defensive players like Mauldin, Jenkins, Burris, and Lee will improve and form a strong nucleus and can play the way Bowles wants to play.  He deserves  at least another year with the type of players he wants, not retreads from the Ryan years.  The last coach we pulled the plug on without giving at least 3 years was Pete Carroll and that didn't work out so well.  You hire a coach, your stuck with him for at least 3 years in my opinion, unless he is totally clueless, and Bowles was 10-6 last year.  Shuffling the deck so often never seems to work in the NFL, look at the Browns.  The best teams in the NFL have stable long term management, it's not time to blow up the Jets yet.

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I think as SAR brings up, the losing the locker room is a huge problem.  But, the season isn't over.  Perhaps it can be written off as an aberration if the team's effort improves in the following 4 weeks.

I find myself in the "meh" camp.  That is to say, if we have a QB, I think suddenly Bowles will start looking like a good coach.  If we don't, then the job he is doing will continue to be questioned.

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8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

A serious discussion about Bowels?

 

6 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

A good level headed analysis but the way you spelled his name in the thread title made it sound like you were going to give a gastroenterology lecture.

Oooopppps. Fixed.  Thanks. :)

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3 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

I think the only way the Jets should replace Bowles is if they go with an experienced head coach.  A Gruden or Coughlin type. They can't go (yet again) with the hot coordinator du jour, and then get pissed when he makes rookie mistakes.    

This !!!!!

I am usually very patient with coaches because it takes time to put his program into place and get the players to buy into it. 

This year though with all the crap going on I don't think he has handled it well at all and if he has the lost the locker room then he has to go. Now maybe he hasn't lost it and we are just getting overwhelmed with the media wanting him to go but right now if I was making the call I would probably lean towards letting him go, IF I could find a veteran proven "Offensive minded" coach who can help bring along a young QB.

I have said this a couple of times, if Mike McCarthy and the Packers decided to part ways I would back up the brinks truck and do whatever I can to bring him here. 

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I agree with most of what the OP is saying, but I think one of his biggest cons is that he plays not to lose, rather than to win. I think that is a big flaw, and I don't know that he ever changes that, its more of the way most DC's turned HC's are wired.

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So, the biggest positive is that "he does what he thinks is right."

I ask you this.  What percentage of Bowles' actions can be considered thought-out and logical? With regards to preparation, game planning, in-game adjustments, handling off-field problems, media relations, benchings, etc.

In my estimation it is between 10-19%. That is just not good enough.  Bowles doesn't motivate. And he doesn't demonstrate enough intelligence to play chess. A 3rd year will not change that.

"Doing what he thinks is right" is just another way of saying "stubborn" from a different point of view.

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9 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

He doesn't adjust when things aren't working.

 

His stubborn to the point of obstinacy.

 

He has lost the locker room.

 

His coaching staff is underperforming.

 

His in game management is terrible.

 

His refusal to bench players that are completely failing is absurd.

 

That He doesn't seem to be improving in any of these areas is a massive red flag.

 

His defensive schemes are being torn to shreds weekly.

 

And on and on.

 

I would have fired him after the Colts debacle.

 

 

 

 

Agree 110% with the above post. 

Winning 10 games in 2015 was easy when things got tougher he folded like a house of cards he made poor decisions before during and after games.

HIs team never seem to be prepared week to week. 

Way too many locker room and off the field problems is a sure sign the head coach has lost the team and the players no longer believe in him or respect him. 

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If we have him back next year, what's going to be any different?  The roster will be influx with new players and nothing I've seen from his regime shows me that he can get the team to work cohesively.

He's not going to survive after next year so do him favor and let him go.

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45 minutes ago, TJ said:

I'm not totally against giving him another year,  but I don't think he'll improve.   He is not going to fire Kacy Rogers.   He is so conservative I think this game has passed him by.   His last boss is anything but conservative,  but not of that moxy has rubbed off on him.   

Biggest reason to move on from Bowles (correct spelling)   is that this defensive guru's defense sucks. 

He still blitzes some, his defense isn't that conservativ

But....

When your corners sucks, and you have no outside pass rushers, it's hard to blitz a lot.   They call blitzes, and those guys NEVER GET THERE.  That's a talent problem, not a coaching problem.   Now, putting your best DE at OLD when he weighs 300 pounds is odd.  Should have just rotated the 3 DE, not play one way out of position (Sheldon) when 1 is not healthy (Mo).

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i understand being fair and giving the guy a 3rd yr, since last yr was deemed a success.. But I also think jets would just be delaying the inevitable.. Gailey is also accient and we know Bowles doesn't have a clue what do with the offense.. What I am disappointed is that Bowles doesn't seem to know what the hec he is doing on defense either.. At least Rex could coach a pretty good D, despite how bad the O was with no play makers or qb.. 

.  I hope Mac really gets some vet players opinion.. Give a real honest assessment of Bowles and his control of the team.. 

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

A serious discussion about Bowels?

LOL I caught that too....Drink some pepto ...

 

On a serious note, the OP was very well written and though out (sans "Bowels"). My issues are:

  1. The team has regressed week in and week out, as though they have given up. They wanted no part of that game Monday, but I will get to that.
  2. He is supposed to be a defensive guru and the defense ranks among the worst Jet defenses of all time, so much so that it reminds me of the defenses of the late 70's when they couldn't stop a leak.
  3. I have heard on more than 1 occasion that Bowltite is not involved with the offense at all which tome is grounds for termination of any manager. A manager, or Head Coach is supposed to have his finger on the entire team. If he is concentrating on the defense only, that is even more of an indication that he is not able to lead this team.
  4. They won 10 games last season, barely and crapped the bed when it mattered. Their record against playoff teams is a disgrace regardless, they beat up on the weak sisters last year.
  5. He has zero personality and his team mirrors that. They play boring football, conservative and not to lose, which I have said a few times, they cannot even do that right.
  6. This season is second to Kotites 1-15 IMO, they are unwatchable and the lack of fannies in the mausoleum in the swamp is a testament to that. While I did not expect to win Monday night, that was as embarrassed as I can ever recall being watching the Jet organization play. Even under Kotite, the team tried, this guy has lost this team.

 

So if you are ready for another season of this garbage with zero hope for the future, by all means go ahead and bring him back next year. I am 55 years old, running out of time to see my Jets win a SB so the faster we move on to someone who could potentially lead us there, the happier I will be.

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2015 was a perfect storm of the talented, veteran players having a great year and perhaps masking the issues with roster depth, coaching, etc.  They went 10-6 and missed the playoffs.  If it takes players having career years to get to 10-6, I am unsure what it would take to get to the playoffs.  Maybe the players' best are not talented enough or maybe Bowles is not a good enough coach, either way other franchises have been able to find sustained success without having all their players being elite or having an outstanding year.  Some coaches motivate their players to heighten their performance, others are great at developing talent.  Some are great at managing the game, while others are great football minds.  Though most good coaches excel in one particular aspect of being a head coach, great ones are at least decent across the board. Not sure what Bowles brings to the table that another coordinator-to-head coach candidate would bring.  He may excel in the x's and o's but seems to fail at the other aspects of being a head coach.  Similar to Rex, his focus cannot be on one aspect of the team/game.  A head coach is responsible for everything not just the offense, or player development, or game planning.  That is a big change from a coordinator which has a very limited focus on their part of the game. 

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1 hour ago, SAR I said:

Good post, but I think you missed the biggest issue of all:

Cons

  • He has lost control of the locker room and it is clear that there is no discipline, no self-respect, and no passion for the game of football or the New York Jets as an organization from the players on the roster.  From nasty tweets to media boycott's to admission of being "old" to DL coaches giving one word answers on media day, to no-show performances on MNF, the list is endless, there clearly is a dysfunctional and toxic environment in Florham Park that players and assistants want to demonstrate against and that's on the head coach.

We can live with the rest of the pro's and con's you list above.  The pro's can be built upon, the con's can improve over time.  But if 52 guys don't respect you now they never will.

SAR I

 

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This is what you get when you hire a first-time head coach. Inexperience.

 Last year was an anomaly. We got lucky last year because of their powder puff schedule.  Suddenly  we all expected them to become a contender. the reality was that this team has been rebuilding since both Bowles and Mac were hired. Having no one besides an aging Revis as corners and playing 2 rookie line backers ( we need more speed at LB) hurt the defense much more than anyone expected. Thinking that Fitz had another phenomenal year in him was a risk they had to take because there was no one else ( including Geno) ready to step in and take his place.

 I think he should be given another year but that will only be based on how the team plays going forward. if everyone is phoning it in for the next four games, then it's time to move on. But if everyone plays hard, plays with a purpose , plays with pride, that'll tell me that this coach is able to rally the troops .I hope for his sake he does. All these so-called experts say he's a good coach well, we're going to find out just how good of a coach he is.

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1 hour ago, SAR I said:

Good post, but I think you missed the biggest issue of all:

Cons

  • He has lost control of the locker room and it is clear that there is no discipline, no self-respect, and no passion for the game of football or the New York Jets as an organization from the players on the roster.  From nasty tweets to media boycott's to admission of being "old" to DL coaches giving one word answers on media day, to no-show performances on MNF, the list is endless, there clearly is a dysfunctional and toxic environment in Florham Park that players and assistants want to demonstrate against and that's on the head coach.

We can live with the rest of the pro's and con's you list above.  The pro's can be built upon, the con's can improve over time.  But if 52 guys don't respect you now they never will.

SAR I

This guy gets it, Fire Bowles!

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9 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Let's have a zany discussion about Bowles instead.

I'm with this guy 100.2 %. It's a lack of zaniness if you ask me. Mood of the lockeroom is one of discontent and disinterest. Need to be more zany.  Honestly guys, the team played better when our starting QB got his jaw broken by a back up linebacker. Better when Sheldon was cruising 125 miles an hour in his Bentley with a toddler and a hand gun.  This team lost its edge when it lost its zaniness. I can't explain it.Just seemed to work for them.  

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I don't necessarily disagree with Max's points but Bowles has definitely not shown himself to have the range of leadership necessary for the position. He has surrounded himself with a pretty bad cast of coaches. The players clearly do not try hard for him. His in-game management has not been good. Game plans are not great. A super bowl-bound roster would probably still struggle to get to a 9-7 record with the way he coached this year. 

Maybe Bowles is a good DC (or did he luck into being carried at ARI and PHI?) and that is his limit at this time in his career. It seems pretty obvious he is sinking this season. 

Bringing him back is a matter of two questions:

1. Can the Jets improve at coaching by firing him (i.e. is there certainty that a superior coach will sign after seeing the last one fired after two years)?

2. What can we reasonably expect to improve next year if he stays?

I am not sure there is a good answer to the latter question. He has so much to improve from this year that I think he would be better off stepping back into a DC role and work on his shortcomings as a HC for the next opportunity. I just can't see him suddenly grasping the job and setting a new tone with the roster. The first question is a far bigger problem. There are not many qualified candidates out there for the job (who want it) that will feel confident taking the job after the last guy lasted two years and dismissed after one rough season following a 10-6 season. For that reason I think Bowles comes back unless Macc/Woody finds a better candidate willing to sign a contract in secret before Bowles is even let go.

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1 hour ago, SAR I said:

Good post, but I think you missed the biggest issue of all:

Cons

  • He has lost control of the locker room and it is clear that there is no discipline, no self-respect, and no passion for the game of football or the New York Jets as an organization from the players on the roster.  From nasty tweets to media boycott's to admission of being "old" to DL coaches giving one word answers on media day, to no-show performances on MNF, the list is endless, there clearly is a dysfunctional and toxic environment in Florham Park that players and assistants want to demonstrate against and that's on the head coach.

We can live with the rest of the pro's and con's you list above.  The pro's can be built upon, the con's can improve over time.  But if 52 guys don't respect you now they never will.

SAR I

one thing I will say about the LR stuff, Tom Coughlin lost his locker room multiple times and recovered to win SBs.  I think he can recover, my biggest issues w/ him are in game.  he's too conservative/stubborn and he struggles to manage games.  we blow TOs almost every week.

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2 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

Todd Bowles lost his locker room and none of the players respect him.

Is there proof of this statement? I don't even think I've read that from any agenda driven media types, or heard that from a player, or from anyone associated with the team.

 

woody-johnson-thumbs-up-metlife_ugkbst.j

 

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11 minutes ago, thatboyjack said:

woody-johnson-thumbs-up-metlife_ugkbst.j

 

I'm obviously not getting the joke, which sucks cause I like to laugh. But seriously like I said in my previous post, is there anything about Bowles losing the locker room or was that something created on these boards.

Is there proof of this statement? I don't even think I've read that from any agenda driven media types, or heard that from a player, or from anyone associated with the team.

I'm not going to make an excuse for Bowles but when Rex was here, all we heard was how much of a player's coach Rex was/is. Is it possible that the players under Rex were used to the team being run a certain (more relaxed) way. When Todd comes in, he decides to change that and maybe not every player buys into it. So Todd punishes a player for being tardy, airs out that player's dirty laundry, and now the player is embarrassed and realizes there are consequences to his actions. Where as before with Rex, this was never the case. No proof, just thinking it's possible.

Maybe it takes a couple of seasons to change the culture?

Again, I don't understand the losing the locker room comments.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

I'm obviously not getting the joke, which sucks cause I like to laugh. But seriously like I said in my previous post, is there anything about Bowles losing the locker room or was that something created on these boards.

Is there proof of this statement? I don't even think I've read that from any agenda driven media types, or heard that from a player, or from anyone associated with the team.

I'm not going to make an excuse for Bowles but when Rex was here, all we heard was how much of a player's coach Rex was/is. Is it possible that the players under Rex were used to the team being run a certain (more relaxed) way. When Todd comes in, he decides to change that and maybe not every player buys into it. So Todd punishes a player for being tardy, airs out that player's dirty laundry, and now the player is embarrassed and realizes there are consequences to his actions. Where as before with Rex, this was never the case. No proof, just thinking it's possible.

Maybe it takes a couple of seasons to change the culture?

Again, I don't understand the losing the locker room comments.

 

 

There was the comments about certain veteran players not supporting any QB but Ryan Fitzpatrick and Bowles was afraid they would quit on him, there was the Mo and Sheldon no show or showing up late to meetings. 

Bowles obviously allowed certain players to determine who the starting QB was going to be even up until he made the comments where he planned to play Petty after losing Monday night but never told Ryan Fitzpatrick of this plan. 

Early on in the season there was that infamous picture of Fitzpatrick,Decker,Marshall and Mangold that told me there was trouble coming, I have never seem this from any other team in all my life. 

Many signs of a weak coach players seem to be out of shape and many reported like that. 

 

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