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Let's have a serious discussion about Bowles


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Good post, but I think you missed the biggest issue of all: Cons He has lost control of the locker room and it is clear that there is no discipline, no self-respect, and no passion for the

So I was going to write an article. But I figured I would include all of you in the discussion. I don't think Todd Bowles should be fired. If your reply is going to be irate, anger filled and 2 or 3 w

By the way, stating that Todd has "held players accountable" makes me question my understanding of the word "accountable".   Fitz, worst QB in the league. Todd Bowles reaction? "Ryan is our

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2 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

He doesn't adjust when things aren't working.

 

His stubborn to the point of obstinacy.

 

He has lost the locker room.

 

His coaching staff is underperforming.

 

His in game management is terrible.

 

His refusal to bench players that are completely failing is absurd.

 

That He doesn't seem to be improving in any of these areas is a massive red flag.

 

His defensive schemes are being torn to shreds weekly.

 

And on and on.

 

I would have fired him after the Colts debacle.

 

 

 

 

This.     His ..Does what he thinks is right???   IS that an argument?  2 year olds do that. 

 

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Just a bit on Mac first. I thought the Jets looked really good on paper....preseason. 

With that said some things that were not anticipated:

Revis being a sieve on D instead of being an island.

Skrine's inability to move outside and be successful.

Mo stinking up the field IMO partially due to this 4-3 defense which makes him read on many schemes instead of rushing like a banshee. I have to blame this on Bowles for giving up on a successful 3-4 defense and heavy blitz schemes that worked last year. Also having players play out of position on D.  For example making Richardson a LB is just wrong. 

Fitz- who they thought would play better than he did this season.

My biggest problem with Bowles is what SAR mentioned earlier that his team will not play hard for him, the team or the fans. When you watched that game Monday it was obvious these guys were half speed. WTF is that. If a coach can't motivate his team to step on that field and give 110% he's done. 

I don't mind a coach having a strong will in making decisions as long as they are the right decisions that work out. His bullheadedness supporting things that don't work is just frustrating and dumb. 

I wouldn't mind seeing a vet coach come in. Maybe Coughlin.

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53 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

I'm obviously not getting the joke, which sucks cause I like to laugh. But seriously like I said in my previous post, is there anything about Bowles losing the locker room or was that something created on these boards.

Is there proof of this statement? I don't even think I've read that from any agenda driven media types, or heard that from a player, or from anyone associated with the team.

I'm not going to make an excuse for Bowles but when Rex was here, all we heard was how much of a player's coach Rex was/is. Is it possible that the players under Rex were used to the team being run a certain (more relaxed) way. When Todd comes in, he decides to change that and maybe not every player buys into it. So Todd punishes a player for being tardy, airs out that player's dirty laundry, and now the player is embarrassed and realizes there are consequences to his actions. Where as before with Rex, this was never the case. No proof, just thinking it's possible.

Maybe it takes a couple of seasons to change the culture?

Again, I don't understand the losing the locker room comments.

 

 

I wasn't joking. I was giving your statement the "thumbs up". I agree with you. There's no definitive proof that Bowles has lost the locker room. 

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One of my biggest concerns is how bad the defense has been, especially the secondary. Really surprising for a defensive guy who was a former safety. I think Rodgers should be fired but Toilet is too clueless and gutless for that. I think he will get another year. One way to look at it is this team is such a mess it may be another 2yrs before it is even competitive. Let Toilet putz around with a crappy team another year and then we are ready to win bring in a real coach?

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2 hours ago, SAR I said:

Good post, but I think you missed the biggest issue of all:

Cons

  • He has lost control of the locker room and it is clear that there is no discipline, no self-respect, and no passion for the game of football or the New York Jets as an organization from the players on the roster.  From nasty tweets to media boycott's to admission of being "old" to DL coaches giving one word answers on media day, to no-show performances on MNF, the list is endless, there clearly is a dysfunctional and toxic environment in Florham Park that players and assistants want to demonstrate against and that's on the head coach.

We can live with the rest of the pro's and con's you list above.  The pro's can be built upon, the con's can improve over time.  But if 52 guys don't respect you now they never will.

SAR I

This is the terminal offense, IMO. That he would t even bench Fitzpatrick because he thought veterans would quit is an outright indictment of his ability to control a locker room. Even if he learns how to do it better, it's not going to be a,omg the 53 jerks he has on this roster.

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30 minutes ago, thatboyjack said:

I wasn't joking. I was giving your statement the "thumbs up". I agree with you. There's no definitive proof that Bowles has lost the locker room. 

Did you watch the Colts game, or were you smart? LOL.

 

The entire Defense was busy making "business decisions"....

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3 hours ago, win4ever said:

Cons:

-In game clock management is one of the worst I've seen (and I watched the Herman Edwards teams) and it's not getting better.  

-He challenges plays based on prayers and hope, rather than a strong case.  It was the same thing with Rex, really disappointed with a play that is close, let's challenge it anyway approach.  

-Lack of preparation, we see the team come out flat consistently.  Furthermore, we see the team come out after calling a time out with a dud play far more often than not.  At least two-three times this year, there was a critical drive by the opposing team, where we called time out to regroup, and came out with a horrible play.  This also shows in plays where we kick extra points that won't help us, instead of going for two.  I was watching a game this weekend (I think Raiders) where they went up 12 points, and instantly everyone on the team holding up two fingers for the conversion?  Us?  We trot out the kicker because our coach isn't thinking.  

-I disagree about accountability.  I don't think he holds people accountable at all.  I think he tries to treat people like "men" approach too much, where he tries to let them figure it out, and he doesn't want to step on veteran toes.  There is no way, any accountable coach leaves in Fitzpatrick in for this long.  We saw it with Cromartie last year.

-No commitment to youth, as he seems to favor the veterans heavily which stunts growth.  We see this with the Forte-Powell mix, as well as the lack of Burris/Roberts when we clearly have a struggling defense.  His commitment to Fitzpatrick in the off-season was one of the worst example of coaching you will see in the NFL.  To all but name a free agent as the starter kills any negotiation leverage for the Jets (worse than Rex blowing smoke up Revis' behind during negotiations) and demoralizes the three young QBs on the roster.  In fact, the whole team is constructed for a QB with strong arm and/or legs, which is exactly the opposite of Fitzpatrick.  He should have kept his mouth shut, and just dealt with the players on the roster. 

-Lack of innovation:  I don't see anything innovative from him.  No up tempo offense (the spread is clearly Gailey's child), very few trick plays, no real identity on defense.  With Rex, you knew he was coming up with exotic blitzes or weird coverage to throw off the defense.  With Bowles, it feels as if he just puts the base defense in there and hopes things go right.  For example, Lee is an A or B gap blitz player that can wreck havoc, but we rarely do it because he has to be the spy on the running back or TE.  This is extremely visible in regards to how the corners play off the ball, instead of press coverage.  Last year against Buffalo, Watkins made a killing running simple come back routes, and the defense never adjusted.

-Lack of aggression- We rarely push the ball before the half, almost always willing to concede the last minute or so.  So many other teams push the ball, call time outs to set up chances, but we don't do that.  

-Lack of improvement- Our young players haven't really improved, sans Enunwa.  Everyone else has seemed to plateau or go backwards under Bowles.  High draft picks in Pryor/Williams/Wilkerson/Sheldon haven't improved since they've been here.  

 

Pro:

-He's deaf to the media, which is needed in such an environment.  Especially with beat writers that are trying to incite trouble for clicks.  

 

This sums it up for me .... reading all the posts this one seem to me to be the best.  I also disagree with bringing him back. I would fire him for all the above reasons but most importantly is that I MHO he lost the team weeks ago and for no other reason than that he should be fired.  Indeed, onee posted claimed that there was no "statement of fact" that this was true.  That is is true but frankly the statement your looking for is the product on the field which is embarrassing and frankly disgusting.  I been a fan for 49 years and use to watch Joe, caster, Don and others... and I seem my share of Bad HC for the NYJ and he ranks right up there with the worst.  Time to move on....

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Bowles had a good year 1 and needed to develop.   Year 2 he did a terrible job head coaching and managing a staff, and the staff that he and Woody hired is also awful.  I don't see 2017 getting better.  Who will work with him to replace the guys who need to be fired.  I see the pros to keep  him, but I think the future is inevitable. 

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3 minutes ago, varjet said:

Bowles had a good year 1 and needed to develop.   Year 2 he did a terrible job head coaching and managing a staff, and the staff that he and Woody hired is also awful.  I don't see 2017 getting better.  Who will work with him to replace the guys who need to be fired.  I see the pros to keep  him, but I think the future is inevitable. 

The good year 1 was the result of an easy schedule

 

If Bowles comes back next year I can see us going 1-15

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5 minutes ago, SOJ said:

This sums it up for me .... reading all the posts this one seem to me to be the best.  I also disagree with bringing him back. I would fire him for all the above reasons but most importantly is that I MHO he lost the team weeks ago and for no other reason than that he should be fired.  Indeed, onee posted claimed that there was no "statement of fact" that this was true.  That is is true but frankly the statement your looking for is the product on the field which is embarrassing and frankly disgusting.  I been a fan for 49 years and use to watch Joe, caster, Don and others... and I seem my share of Bad HC for the NYJ and he ranks right up there with the worst.  Time to move on....

To counter, as mentioned there is no sources/leaks saying he has lost 52 men in that locker room. Past leaders have been decaying physically, so I think that can easily be misconstrued as giving up when in fact, they just don't have it anymore. Mangold, Revis, to a lesser extent Harris, Forte, who have played well all things considering are not the same players. Marshall who has blown up past locker rooms, is also not a problem and Decker is missed on and off the field IMHO.

The young guys are certainly playing hard, because their lively hood is on the line.

To me, it can be boiled down to a couple small cliques of players who dont respect Bowles, most have been labeled as bad seeds by many here.

Just my observations, as we can see how the final 4 weeks play out.

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I was not on the Bowles train after the Cincy game. I hate to keep making coaching changes but Bowles BB balls tells me he's not long for the new NFL. He's a complete pussy when it comes to going out on a limb decision, he always takes the conservative route instead of trying to put teams away when you have a chance. He coached like he had no clue that this team was as poor as they showed & because of that it got worse because he just going straight ahead the same f*cking way.

Fire him.

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4 hours ago, SAR I said:

Good post, but I think you missed the biggest issue of all:

Cons

  • He has lost control of the locker room and it is clear that there is no discipline, no self-respect, and no passion for the game of football or the New York Jets as an organization from the players on the roster.  From nasty tweets to media boycott's to admission of being "old" to DL coaches giving one word answers on media day, to no-show performances on MNF, the list is endless, there clearly is a dysfunctional and toxic environment in Florham Park that players and assistants want to demonstrate against and that's on the head coach.

We can live with the rest of the pro's and con's you list above.  The pro's can be built upon, the con's can improve over time.  But if 52 guys don't respect you now they never will.

SAR I

Surprised Maxman didn't bring up the team not playing hard for him.  If this continues (especially now that Petty is in there) then Bowles won't survive.  If he gets them to respond though (not necessarily win but at least play hard for him) then I think he'll be back.

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

This is the terminal offense, IMO. That he would t even bench Fitzpatrick because he thought veterans would quit is an outright indictment of his ability to control a locker room. Even if he learns how to do it better, it's not going to be a,omg the 53 jerks he has on this roster.

I don't disagree with your comment, but other than this being another click-bait theory from Manish, how does anyone know if there's any truth to it at all?

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2 hours ago, RESNewYork said:

Todd Bowles lost his locker room and none of the players respect him.

Is there proof of this statement? I don't even think I've read that from any agenda driven media types, or heard that from a player, or from anyone associated with the team.

I'm not going to make an excuse for Bowles but when Rex was here, all we heard was how much of a player's coach Rex was/is. Is it possible that the players under Rex were used to the team being run a certain (more relaxed) way. When Todd comes in, he decides to change that and maybe not every player buys into it. So Todd punishes a player for being tardy, airs out that player's dirty laundry, and now the player is embarrassed and realizes there are consequences to his actions. Where as before with Rex, this was never the case. No proof, just thinking it's possible.

Maybe it takes a couple of seasons to change the culture?

Again, I don't understand the losing the locker room comments.

Bingo...like Geno at the movies excuse with rex

Sheldon thinks he doesn't need pepper to coach him because he is already good I believe was him comment

 

 

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A great QB can make a Head Coach look like a genius.  Sooooo, if somehow we get competent QB performance next year, Todd might look a lot better than he does this year.  Even Belichick was a so-so head coach when he was head coach of the Browns back in the 90s.  With that said, the biggest disappointment this year has been on the defensive side...which is supposed to be Todd's specialty.  And even ruling out Fitz's putrid performance Monday night....I don't think Tom Brady could've bailed the Jets out...the defense never showed up....that has to fall on the head coach.  Does Woody fire him????  Who knows.  I still think there is way too much talent on the Jets to be this bad....which is a negative indictment against Todd.  What does 1 or 2 more years with Todd get us?  Frankly, I don't think a whole lot...maybe a wild card if we're really lucky.  We need a proven head coach that has built winning organizations from the ground up.  I would offer Jim Harbaugh whatever he asked for to get him to be our Head Coach.  

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6 minutes ago, AFJF said:

I don't disagree with your comment, but other than this being another click-bait theory from Manish, how does anyone know if there's any truth to it at all?

It seems to fit with the attitude of the team and Bowles' clear distaste for upsetting vets 

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3 minutes ago, afjetsfan said:

A great QB can make a Head Coach look like a genius.  Sooooo, if somehow we get competent QB performance next year, Todd might look a lot better than he does this year.  Even Belichick was a so-so head coach when he was head coach of the Browns back in the 90s.  With that said, the biggest disappointment this year has been on the defensive side...which is supposed to be Todd's specialty.  And even ruling out Fitz's putrid performance Monday night....I don't think Tom Brady could've bailed the Jets out...the defense never showed up....that has to fall on the head coach.  Does Woody fire him????  Who knows.  I still think there is way too much talent on the Jets to be this bad....which is a negative indictment against Todd.  What does 1 or 2 more years with Todd get us?  Frankly, I don't think a whole lot...maybe a wild card if we're really lucky.  We need a proven head coach that has built winning organizations from the ground up.  I would offer Jim Harbaugh whatever he asked for to get him to be our Head Coach.  

Good post, but...

1. Given what we've seen so far, there's zero reason to believe that this regime will find or foster a good QB.

 

2. Harbaugh, if he decides to leave Michigan, will have his pick of jobs. We're not winning that competition. 

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4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Good post, but...

1. Given what we've seen so far, there's zero reason to believe that this regime will find or foster a good QB.

 

2. Harbaugh, if he decides to leave Michigan, will have his pick of jobs. We're not winning that competition. 

True, but I can dream :-)  Seriously though, I too share your thoughts that a good QB might be out of our reach and Harbaugh would be very hesitant to ever come to the Jets.  I just wish we could pull off what Leon Hess did back in 97 and get someone like Bill Parcells.  He immediately made our team relevant again.  

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2 minutes ago, afjetsfan said:

True, but I can dream :-)  Seriously though, I too share your thoughts that a good QB might be out of our reach and Harbaugh would be very hesitant to ever come to the Jets.  I just wish we could pull of what Leon Hess did back in 97 and get someone like Bill Parcells.  He immediately made our team relevant again.  

Never dream. Staple your eyelids open Ludovico style and assimilate the shame full force.

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In so many ways he's a go-with-the-flow kind of guy. He won't make a team look better than it is. He won't really make a team look worse than it is either. Don't remember every piece of history but there have probably been coaches like this that have been vaulted into unreal situations and won a Super Bowl. As for us though, we have an old team by NFL standards. The schedule got harder and a lot of older guys dropped off, including the quarterback and the superstar defensive player.

I'm fine with a coach being super conservative, or tending toward run-run-pass kind of stuff, you don't have to like it but it's a style. A lot of the clock management/timeout/challenge stuff (maybe the challenges have been better this year) is just doing an objectively bad job though.

I don't like Bowles that much, and I don't need him to stay, but I don't like the construction of this roster either. It worries me that we're getting so little out of this ~all pro high draft pick defensive line~ because it's hard to move a Mo/Sheldon kind of player for equal value in the NFL when they're struggling. If there's ways in which Bowles is culpable for that, maybe not motivating the guys enough, then he needs to go. But aside from that, no, we don't have too much talent to be where we are.

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3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Good post, but...

1. Given what we've seen so far, there's zero reason to believe that this regime will find or foster a good QB.

 

2. Harbaugh, if he decides to leave Michigan, will have his pick of jobs. We're not winning that competition. 

He is not leaving Mich. until he delivers a national title.

But.......when he does.

Money talks very loudly plus if he does get courted who will be the competition?

Buffalo? Cleveland? Jacksonville?

Teams with average to good HCs wont want to pay him.

Maybe LA iwould be the only competition.

His ego would gravitate to the bigger stages no?

Parcells, Coughlin,............ Harbaugh.

 

 

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The best thing that can be done in the off-season would be for woody to let Macc decide Bowles fate. If Macc decides to keep Bowles he has to put every player on the rosters fate in Bowles hands. Bowles needs to cut any player who doesn't show up in shape or who doesn't work to their potential in the preseason regardless of what we owe them and how it will affect our cap. We need to set an example and remind our staff that they aren't here to get free paychecks and that if they slack they will be unemployed. We also need a new defensive coordinator and probably new conditoning staff.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, Kleckineau said:

He is not leaving Mich. until he delivers a national title.

But.......when he does.

Money talks very loudly plus if he does get courted who will be the competition?

Buffalo? Cleveland? Jacksonville?

Teams with average to good HCs wont want to pay him.

Maybe LA iwould be the only competition.

His ego would gravitate to the bigger stages no?

Parcells, Coughlin,............ Harbaugh.

 

 

DA Bears.

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5 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Agree 110% with the above post. 

Winning 10 games in 2015 was easy when things got tougher he folded like a house of cards he made poor decisions before during and after games.

HIs team never seem to be prepared week to week. 

Way too many locker room and off the field problems is a sure sign the head coach has lost the team and the players no longer believe in him or respect him. 

Did you say winning 10 games is easy?

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I have been in favor of his firing for many of the before mentioned reasons. Max said that Kacy Rodgers should be fired. I agree. But what would it mean if Bowles refused to fire him? That would be another indication of the unreasonable stubbornness we have seen from Bowles.  Sar mentioned that Bowles lost the locker room and I agree. So we shall see how this team performs over the next 4 weeks, but I'm not hopeful.

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If you give Bowles 2017, you're going to have give him 2018 too. There is a high probability given the likely QB situation that next year is going to be as bad or worse than is year. This team is a long term project, not an overnight fix. Given the dearth of talent and the overall disfunction that the team was coming from it was never going to be a quick fix. Last year was fools gold but it was still fun. It was unlikely they'd catch lightning in a bottle twice. Massive regressions across the board on both sides of the ball and some untimely injuries all season. If you aren't willing to commit two more seasons to Bowles, don't commit another.  

Of course, the replacement would have all the same issues and probably another first timer. Can't go that road again. 

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6 hours ago, chirorob said:

He still blitzes some, his defense isn't that conservativ

But....

When your corners sucks, and you have no outside pass rushers, it's hard to blitz a lot.   They call blitzes, and those guys NEVER GET THERE.  That's a talent problem, not a coaching problem.   Now, putting your best DE at OLD when he weighs 300 pounds is odd.  Should have just rotated the 3 DE, not play one way out of position (Sheldon) when 1 is not healthy (Mo).

When I said he was too conservative,  I was talking about the offense.   His defense is just bad.   D is supposed to be the Jets' strength as well as his area of expertise.   Our defense is terrible!.   He keeps trotting Revis out there every week and every game Revis gets burned.   He keeps doing the same thing and expects a different result.   

Every week the whole team comes out flat.   They look inept in all three phases.  Seven minutes left in the game,  down by two scores and this guy punts.   And yes,  playing Sheldon at linebacker is stupid.   

I'll never forget what Todd Bowles said in his initial press conference:  "We're going to be a smart team,  a tough team, and we're going to do things the right way.   The Jets aren't any of those things. 

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2 hours ago, Ken Shroy said:

I have been in favor of his firing for many of the before mentioned reasons. Max said that Kacy Rodgers should be fired. I agree. But what would it mean if Bowles refused to fire him? That would be another indication of the unreasonable stubbornness we have seen from Bowles.  Sar mentioned that Bowles lost the locker room and I agree. So we shall see how this team performs over the next 4 weeks, but I'm not hopeful.

If Bowles wants to fall down on the sword for Kacy I would let them both go. To me the defense has been so bad, if there is going to be no change implemented that isn't a realistic strategy. There has to be change.

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5 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Surprised Maxman didn't bring up the team not playing hard for him.  If this continues (especially now that Petty is in there) then Bowles won't survive.  If he gets them to respond though (not necessarily win but at least play hard for him) then I think he'll be back.

I know a lot of people are saying that. And they are playing bad. I am not sure they have given up though. The Sheldon and Wilk thing bugs the hell out of me. I would trade Sheldon for whatever they can get (at least a 3rd) and just hope that Wilk missing the offseason program is the cause for his problems.

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We are not in rebuilding in mode.  We are in f-ing flame out mode.  And I'm sorry, Bowles has to show something in the next four games.  My guess is win Sunday and one of the remaining games against Miami, NE, or Buffalo.  He does that and he gives Woody enough reason to keep him on.  That's a tall order but it's not impossible.  I know there are so many people who are saying he deserves another year and "what is he supposed to do."  Well there is still time for him to save his job, so he can do that.....

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