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Kiper says Jets should ignore QB in rd. 1...go defense.


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45 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Never had??? Boy you must be young... We have had plenty of edge rushers on this team.  Most notably and recently John Abraham or try Mark Gastineau... Come on now. And

Mac reached for one player... Hack, the rest were all value picks... Jordan Jenkins, a second rounder in the 3rd. Burris a 3rd rounder in the 4th... and plenty of UDFA to boot...

I meant a standing OLB pass rusher, not a pass rush DE. The Jets have swung and missed on that position every since we started hiring 3-4 coaches.

And again, you're missing the point, just like the others.  It's about positional value.  Unless Lee turns into Luke Keuchly or Ray Lewis or Jarrod Mayo, what he brings to the table isnt worth the 15th overall pick.  You can find guys who can tackle people and not make impact plays in any round of the draft.   A perfect example in this draft is Dieon Jones and Sua Cravens.  They are the exact same player as Darron Lee, if not better and they were picked 52nd, 53rd overall.  Guys like Telvin Smith and Danny Trevethan...were picked in the 5th and beyond.  That's where you take a player that does what Darron does.  Not 15th overall.

 

 

 

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On 12/10/2016 at 0:16 PM, SickJetFan said:

Yeah problem with that is foster is not an edge rusher....but he is my 2nd fav defense choice behind Peppers....I would not be dissappointed.  

 

You're right about this...I was getting him confused with the Jonathan Allen.  And then there is Anderson who might be the most under appreciated player on that D. 

That said, I think Foster does better what they thought they drafted Lee to do...but I wouldnt be cool with that pick after remembering his skill set compared to the other guys.  It's right back into the same positional value conversation that isnt sinking in with a select few. 

 

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Just now, JiF said:

I meant a standing OLB pass rusher, not a pass rush DE. The Jets have swung and missed on that position every since we started hiring 3-4 coaches.

And again, you're missing the point, just like the others.  It's about positional value.  Unless Lee turns into Luke Keuchly or Ray Lewis or Jarrod Mayo, what he brings to the table isnt worth the 15th overall pick.  You can find guys who can tackle people and not make impact plays in any round of the draft.   A perfect example in this draft is Dieon Jones and Sua Cravens.  They are the exact same player as Darron Lee, if not better and they were picked 52nd, 53rd overall.  Guys like Telvin Smith and Danny Trevethan...were picked in the 5th and beyond.  That's where you take a player that does what Darron does.  Not 15th overall.

 

 

 

First off he was the 20th pick... not 15th...

Again John Abraham played OLB and DE, Greg Buttle and Mo Lewis... come on they have had plenty of Pass rushers... Geez, I can't believe I even have to argue that point. You are wrong to say they have never had any, you are wrong in that Lee is the 15th pick when they drafted him 20th.

Next Darron Lee is not meant to pass rush.  With a great pass rusher as Kiper said, it will allow lee to play a different type of position and seriously this kid is a rookie learning to play the qb position of the defense and you give him sh*t before he even finishes his rookie year... He is starting!!! Wow seriously You really just like to complain.

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9 minutes ago, JiF said:

I meant a standing OLB pass rusher, not a pass rush DE. The Jets have swung and missed on that position every since we started hiring 3-4 coaches.

And again, you're missing the point, just like the others.  It's about positional value.  Unless Lee turns into Luke Keuchly or Ray Lewis or Jarrod Mayo, what he brings to the table isnt worth the 15th overall pick.  You can find guys who can tackle people and not make impact plays in any round of the draft.   A perfect example in this draft is Dieon Jones and Sua Cravens.  They are the exact same player as Darron Lee, if not better and they were picked 52nd, 53rd overall.  Guys like Telvin Smith and Danny Trevethan...were picked in the 5th and beyond.  That's where you take a player that does what Darron does.  Not 15th overall.

 

 

 

Darron Lee has more potential then both of them and Sua doesn't start and Dieon jones has vic Beasley playing next to him.

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13 minutes ago, JiF said:

I meant a standing OLB pass rusher, not a pass rush DE. The Jets have swung and missed on that position every since we started hiring 3-4 coaches.

And again, you're missing the point, just like the others.  It's about positional value.  Unless Lee turns into Luke Keuchly or Ray Lewis or Jarrod Mayo, what he brings to the table isnt worth the 15th overall pick.  You can find guys who can tackle people and not make impact plays in any round of the draft.   A perfect example in this draft is Dieon Jones and Sua Cravens.  They are the exact same player as Darron Lee, if not better and they were picked 52nd, 53rd overall.  Guys like Telvin Smith and Danny Trevethan...were picked in the 5th and beyond.  That's where you take a player that does what Darron does.  Not 15th overall.

 

 

 

Or the dude for the Niners that was making all of those plays last night, Hodges, a 4th round pick moved from side to side as well if not better than our top 20 pick.  (lee was once again getting reamed out on the sidelines by Bowles yesterday for another fail)

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2 things. 1- Kiper is rarely right and changes his position constantly. 2- Kiper is right that they don;t need to go QB in round one.

But you know what, I could have told you that, it doesn't take a brainiac to figure out that a team with 2 young QBs and holes at a lot of other positions does not need to draft a QB in the top 10 when there is no sure-fire QB prospect in the draft. DUH!

But Foster is NOT my guy. I think Cunningham is a more well rounded ILB prospect and should be available in the 2nd round. That's just my opinion.

The Jets do not need to go WR either. And let's just assume for the sake of argument that no OT is worth taking that high. So you have CB, RB, Edge Rusher, S as your options.

I think most will agree that trading down is the move, adding another 2nd rounder, taking BPA in the twenties or late teens.

BUT- my thinking recently has shifted. If the Jets DO NOT trade down and end up picking in the top 10 I have one guy as a standout on my list L.Fournette.

For the record, I will admit that #1 I was against taking a RB this early. Especially with an O-line that has holes. #2 I liked a number of other RBs that should be available later- D'Onta Foreman, Cook, Kamara, Freeman, etc. #3 I didn't even rate Fournette as the top RB prospect b/c I was enamored with Cook and his versatility, toughness and production.   

But the more I watch Fournette, the more I realize he is a special talent. Size, strength, vision and break-away speed. Reminds me of Gale Sayers in the way he runs. The long strides, deceptive speed.

If the Jets were to take a chance on a player based off BPA rather than need and did not trade down, I would not mind at all if they took Fournette in the top 10. To all the Fournette fans- I tip my hat.    

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7 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

First off he was the 20th pick... not 15th...

Again John Abraham played OLB and DE, Greg Buttle and Mo Lewis... come on they have had plenty of Pass rushers... Geez, I can't believe I even have to argue that point. You are wrong to say they have never had any, you are wrong in that Lee is the 15th pick when they drafted him 20th.

Next Darron Lee is not meant to pass rush.  With a great pass rusher as Kiper said, it will allow lee to play a different type of position and seriously this kid is a rookie learning to play the qb position of the defense and you give him sh*t before he even finishes his rookie year... He is starting!!! Wow seriously You really just like to complain.

What is Lee meant to be?  He is supposed to be a fast play maker that does get some sacks, generates turnovers and the one we heard time again, covers rbs and Tes.  He's been lousy in coverage and Jif is correct at point out you don;t use a top 20 pick for that skill set. 

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Just now, Beerfish said:

What is Lee meant to be?  He is supposed to be a fast play maker that does get some sacks, generates turnovers and the one we heard time again, covers rbs and Tes.  He's been lousy in coverage and Jif is correct at point out you don;t use a top 20 pick for that skill set. 

I disagree and you try to draft a playmaker whenever you can. Too early to give up on the pick... but be a SOJF like the rest. Is his head swimming and he out of position a LOT, yes. But it is to be expected from a rookie playing a new style of position for him. Hence why at the beginning of the year both Mac and Bowles said he is not a 3 down back yet but can grow into one. The potential is there

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5 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

I disagree and you try to draft a playmaker whenever you can. Too early to give up on the pick... but be a SOJF like the rest. Is his head swimming and he out of position a LOT, yes. But it is to be expected from a rookie playing a new style of position for him. Hence why at the beginning of the year both Mac and Bowles said he is not a 3 down back yet but can grow into one. The potential is there

No one is giving up on the pick, its the value of the pick and the impact of the player vs where he was picked.

Know what might be the biggest issue with Lee?  Our D coaching schemes are a Hodge podge of stuff that doesn;t let players actually find a position.  This is another reason why even if we do draft that much needed pass rushing olb terror I have little confidence he will have the impact he should.

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31 minutes ago, JiF said:

I meant a standing OLB pass rusher, not a pass rush DE. The Jets have swung and missed on that position every since we started hiring 3-4 coaches.

And again, you're missing the point, just like the others.  It's about positional value.  Unless Lee turns into Luke Keuchly or Ray Lewis or Jarrod Mayo, what he brings to the table isnt worth the 15th overall pick.  You can find guys who can tackle people and not make impact plays in any round of the draft.   A perfect example in this draft is Dieon Jones and Sua Cravens.  They are the exact same player as Darron Lee, if not better and they were picked 52nd, 53rd overall.  Guys like Telvin Smith and Danny Trevethan...were picked in the 5th and beyond.  That's where you take a player that does what Darron does.  Not 15th overall.

 

 

 

15th overall? 

Ugh, no.  

And those guys do what Lee does to you.  None are the same, are as fast and athletic.  

 

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10 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

I disagree and you try to draft a playmaker whenever you can. Too early to give up on the pick... but be a SOJF like the rest. Is his head swimming and he out of position a LOT, yes. But it is to be expected from a rookie playing a new style of position for him. Hence why at the beginning of the year both Mac and Bowles said he is not a 3 down back yet but can grow into one. The potential is there

He's also been lined up out of position out of necessity, matching up against players he shouldn't be matched up against. 

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27 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

No one is giving up on the pick, its the value of the pick and the impact of the player vs where he was picked.

Know what might be the biggest issue with Lee?  Our D coaching schemes are a Hodge podge of stuff that doesn;t let players actually find a position.  This is another reason why even if we do draft that much needed pass rushing olb terror I have little confidence he will have the impact he should.

You are lambasting a GM based on a LB in his rookie season and a red shirted QB... 3rd year of the GM will be very telling. And I am excited to see Lee after a full off season where he gets a little bigger and tougher and has an entire off season to learn the playbook. If he still runs around missing assignments I will agree with you next year. I can't just write off saying it was a horrible pick at 20 without letting it play out. 

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1 hour ago, Skeptable said:

First off he was the 20th pick... not 15th...

Again John Abraham played OLB and DE, Greg Buttle and Mo Lewis... come on they have had plenty of Pass rushers... Geez, I can't believe I even have to argue that point. You are wrong to say they have never had any, you are wrong in that Lee is the 15th pick when they drafted him 20th.

Next Darron Lee is not meant to pass rush.  With a great pass rusher as Kiper said, it will allow lee to play a different type of position and seriously this kid is a rookie learning to play the qb position of the defense and you give him sh*t before he even finishes his rookie year... He is starting!!! Wow seriously You really just like to complain.

Abraham is the only true consistent edge rusher threat I've seen on the Jets.  Ellis was solid but I wouldnt call him a consistent threat. I was too young to remember Gastineau. Mo Lewis broke double digits sacks, once.  Greg Buttle?  A pass rusher? lol  Acting like this has been a position of strength, is kind of ridiculous, to be honest.  

I never said a word about Darron Lee pass rushing.  But now that you mention it, if he was a pass rusher, maybe he would have warranted his draft selection.  Otherwise, he tackles people.  Yippee!!!  Look, I have no problem with Lee.  I think he'll be in the league a long time.  He looks the part.  The issue is, he looks the part of a player you could have found in the 3rd round. 

Not sure why this concept is lost on people...but it's really simple. 

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Or the dude for the Niners that was making all of those plays last night, Hodges, a 4th round pick moved from side to side as well if not better than our top 20 pick.  (lee was once again getting reamed out on the sidelines by Bowles yesterday for another fail)

It's amazing that we're debating this...

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1 minute ago, JiF said:

Abraham is the only true consistent edge rusher threat I've seen on the Jets.  Ellis was solid but I wouldnt call him a consistent threat. I was too young to remember Gastineau. Mo Lewis broke double digits sacks, once.  Greg Buttle?  A pass rusher? lol  Acting like this has been a position of strength, is kind of ridiculous, to be honest.  

I never said a word about Darron Lee pass rushing.  But now that you mention it, if he was a pass rusher, maybe he would have warranted his draft selection.  Otherwise, he tackles people.  Yippee!!!  Look, I have no problem with Lee.  I think he'll be in the league a long time.  He looks the part.  The issue is, he looks the part of a player you could have found in the 3rd round. 

Not sure why this concept is lost on people...but it's really simple. 

It's too subtle...But it also doesn't take into account the full context of need and players around him.

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

No one is giving up on the pick, its the value of the pick and the impact of the player vs where he was picked.

Know what might be the biggest issue with Lee?  Our D coaching schemes are a Hodge podge of stuff that doesn;t let players actually find a position.  This is another reason why even if we do draft that much needed pass rushing olb terror I have little confidence he will have the impact he should.

It's literally that simple. 

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Just now, JiF said:

It's literally that simple. 

How is Floyd doing? How about Joseph? Kenny Clark? Kevin Dodd? Not to mention Rankins and Lawson both on IR... Are they all failures of GM because the pick hasn't panned out in their first year... I mean seriously... We can go back and forth cherry picking data, but the reality was last years 1st round was not good. Most GMs drafted a guy that didn't necessarily produce first round value outside the top 5 picks. Lee can (and probably will) be a staple at LB for years to come and (can) end up to be a very good if not great player.

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

15th overall? 

Ugh, no.  

And those guys do what Lee does to you.  None are the same, are as fast and athletic.  

 

20th.  5 spots.  My bad. 

And they're actually the exactly the same player.  But whatevs. 

Here's a better example for you using the tackle leaders in the league since that's all Lee currently brings to the table:

Bobby Wagner - 2nd round - 47th overall

Sean Lee - 2nd round - 55th overall

Zach Brown - 2nd round - 52nd overall

Christian Kirskey - 3rd round - 71st overall

Alec Olgletree - 1st round - 30th overall

Zach Orr - undrafted

Tahir Whitehead - 5th round - 138th overall

Paul Posluszny - 2nd round - 34th overall

Preston Brown - 3rd round - 73rd overall.

1 player taken in the 1st round.  1.  Do I really need to say more? 

Again, Lee is a fine player.  But its about positional value when it comes to the draft. 

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Just now, JiF said:

20th.  5 spots.  My bad. 

And they're actually the exactly the same player.  But whatevs. 

Here's a better example for you using the tackle leaders in the league since that's all Lee currently brings to the table:

Bobby Wagner - 2nd round - 47th overall

Sean Lee - 2nd round - 55th overall

Zach Brown - 2nd round - 52nd overall

Christian Kirskey - 3rd round - 71st overall

Alec Olgletree - 1st round - 30th overall

Zach Orr - undrafted

Tahir Whitehead - 5th round - 138th overall

Paul Posluszny - 2nd round - 34th overall

Preston Brown - 3rd round - 73rd overall.

1 player taken in the 1st round.  1.  Do I really need to say more? 

Again, Lee is a fine player.  But its about positional value when it comes to the draft. 

I get that other LBs where drafted later. Doesnt make them equal or better picks.  Theres no rule that you cant or shouldnt take a LB where the Jets took Lee.  

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2 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

How is Floyd doing? How about Joseph? Kenny Clark? Kevin Dodd? Not to mention Rankins and Lawson both on IR... Are they all failures of GM because the pick hasn't panned out in their first year... I mean seriously... We can go back and forth cherry picking data, but the reality was last years 1st round was not good. Most GMs drafted a guy that didn't necessarily produce first round value outside the top 5 picks. Lee can (and probably will) be a staple at LB for years to come and (can) end up to be a very good if not great player.

THIS is the point.... It's THAT simple

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5 minutes ago, JiF said:

20th.  5 spots.  My bad. 

And they're actually the exactly the same player.  But whatevs. 

Here's a better example for you using the tackle leaders in the league since that's all Lee currently brings to the table:

Bobby Wagner - 2nd round - 47th overall

Sean Lee - 2nd round - 55th overall

Zach Brown - 2nd round - 52nd overall

Christian Kirskey - 3rd round - 71st overall

Alec Olgletree - 1st round - 30th overall

Zach Orr - undrafted

Tahir Whitehead - 5th round - 138th overall

Paul Posluszny - 2nd round - 34th overall

Preston Brown - 3rd round - 73rd overall.

1 player taken in the 1st round.  1.  Do I really need to say more? 

Again, Lee is a fine player.  But its about positional value when it comes to the draft. 

Even though he was expected to be drafted in the first round. What gives you better judgement over the draft experts? You didnt answer that question.

I will say that yesterday was probably his worst game as a Jet, but the other rookies stepped up and played well.

Honestly, I don't care about positional value. The Jets need talented players period. AT ANY POSITION

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1 minute ago, Skeptable said:

How is Floyd doing? How about Joseph? Kenny Clark? Kevin Dodd? Not to mention Rankins and Lawson both on IR... Are they all failures of GM because the pick hasn't panned out in their first year... I mean seriously... We can go back and forth cherry picking data, but the reality was last years 1st round was not good. Most GMs drafted a guy that didn't necessarily produce first round value outside the top 5 picks. Lee can (and probably will) be a staple at LB for years to come and (can) end up to be a very good if not great player.

Those guys are pass rushers.  Most pass rushers dont burst onto the scene. Look at Vic Beasly.  They can take a year and they're worth their positional draft value because of how they change the game. 

The bold is the one saving grace.  Doesnt change the point of the discussion though.  See my post above with the top tackle leaders. 

 

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Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Even though he was expected to be drafted in the first round. What gives you better judgement ove the draft experts? You didnt answer that question

In fact he was mocked to be drafted 15th overall by falcons by 90% of the 'experts' and was never suppose to even fall to the Jets

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Just now, JiF said:

Those guys are pass rushers.  Most pass rushers dont burst onto the scene. Look at Vic Beasly.  They can take a year and they're worth their positional draft value because of how they change the game. 

The bold is the one saving grace.  Doesnt change the point of the discussion though.  See my post above with the top tackle leaders. 

 

Not all PLAYERS burst onto the scene... Your argument is falling apart. Lee can still earn his drafted position if he becomes the 3 down qb of the defense like he is being groomed to be... Geez

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5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I get that other LBs where drafted later. Doesnt make them equal or better picks.  Theres no rule that you cant or shouldnt take a LB where the Jets took Lee.  

Of course it does. 

Do you take punters in the 1st round? There isnt a rule that says you cant. 

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Just now, Skeptable said:

Not all PLAYERS burst onto the scene... Your argument is falling apart. Lee can still earn his drafted position if he becomes the 3 down qb of the defense like he is being groomed to be... Geez

Not all "PASS RUSHERS" is what I said. 

Is Lee a pass rusher? 

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5 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Even though he was expected to be drafted in the first round. What gives you better judgement over the draft experts? You didnt answer that question.

I will say that yesterday was probably his worst game as a Jet, but the other rookies stepped up and played well.

 

Experts dont know sh*t.  

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