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What prevents us going with Petty and Hack in 2017 as #1 and #2?


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16 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I never said bring in said veteran (which could in theory be a young QB) and start him. Not once did that utterance come from me. The only reason to draft another QB in 2017 is if one falls into their laps in the middle rounds or if Petty sucks out loud the next three weeks. While I don't have faith that Hackeburg is anything special, I don't think that the Jets should be focused on a QB in 2017. 2018 seems to be the better draft for QB. Build up the O-Line this off-season, find a young running back, find a pass rusher, rebuild the secondary. Those should be the draft priorities for 2017.

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You definitely need to bring in a veteran though

I'm trying to figure out why.

What does a veteran bring our team in 2017?  What does he provide that Hack, Petty and a young FA/Mid-Late Round Draft Pick doesn't?

If you're bringing him in to backup, why?  Don't we get more having a young QB learning back there?

If you bring him in to backup, why would a Head Coach not be tempted to play him, a la Fitz?  Why give a Coach that option?

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Just now, Warfish said:

You said:  

I'm trying to figure out why.

What does a veteran bring our team in 2017?  What does he provide that Hack, Petty and a young FA/Mid-Late Round Draft Pick doesn't?

Someone who could actually be trusted to be the #2 QB in 2017. By definition a mid to late round draft pick is likely a #3 QB/practice squad fodder. Hack is not ready to be the #2 QB and he still need major overhauls in some of his mechanics according to the coaches. What makes you think he'll be ready to be the #2 if Petty proves to be the #1? And let's not even get into the discussion of what QB the Jets will bring in if Petty is bad down the stretch and they stick him as the #2 and sign someone they shouldn't. It's what the Jets always do.

And again, I'm not sure why you're confusing the fact that a "veteran" and a "young FA" could be the exact same player. I gave no names and no terms of years of service. Literally a 2nd year QB is a veteran simply because they aren't a rookie anymore. You're focusing on minutiae and not the bigger picture.

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44 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Or should we be working ceaselessly to find a Franchise QB to go forward with, while building the pieces (especially O-line) to serve and protect that guy once found?

This.  A million times this.  The Jets are never in sync, ever. 

We've always got the team with the mature OL and D being led by Pennington's growing pains or Sanchez' inexperience when a cagey veteran would have been better.  Or instead, we're the team with the proven veteran quarterback like Esiason or O'Donnell with a bunch of youngsters for an OL and D where bringing up a young QB would have been the better approach.

Just once I'd love to have the young rebuilding OL and D coming along at the same time as the young QB so they all mature at the same time and we can be on the right track for a run.  We were blessed with a solid OL and D for the better part of the last 15 years and it's broken right now, it's the perfect time to bet the farm on 2 or 3 young quarterbacks and let them shoot it out.

SAR I

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Petty would have to get better for each of the last 3 weeks for them to consider it imo.  One bump in the road and the team will be looking for a vet.

We aren't the type of team that's a veteran quarterback away from the playoffs. So bringing one in here will not help us at all. 

We saw this with Boomer Esiason and Neil O'Donnell.  Double-down on the quarterback and ignore other areas of need.  It's how one goes from 3-13 to 1-15.

The Brett Favre move was a good move because we had the OL and the D and he was a missing piece improvement over Pennington, got us to 8-3 before the injury.  Tony Romo or Jay Cutler are just names to sell tickets, they won't get this team to the playoffs next year, so there is no point in it.

SAR I

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Petty has 3 more games. He has already played one full game and a couple of partial games. To be honest, I think regardless of what teams the Jets face (and they will have to play the Pats in Foxboro and the Dolphins fighting for a playoff spot), this will be enough to show what the Jets have in Petty. At least enough to show if he should be compete for the starting gig next season. 

Hack is more ready than the Jets lead on, IMO. I base this off no internal information at all, just my opinion. I think the Jets are confident in Hack. I think they like what they see and are simply keeping him under wraps- committing to the plan that Petty would get reps ahead of Hack and Hack would have a 'red shirt' season. Hack will have an opportunity to start next season. Whatever the Jets do at the QB position, I think Hack WILL get that shot. 

If Petty has a solid 3 games to finish off the season, it will be Petty and Hack competing for the starting spot in 2017. Book it. The Jets will probably bring in some veteran as insurance, but I doubt they draft a QB high- if at all. 

If Petty looks lost for the last 3 games and throws a bunch of INTs, the Jets could very well cut him, or put him on PS- eventually. He will participate in the Jets QB competition but the Jets will be looking at other options. It will be Hack and veteran X or rookie Y competing for the starting/backup gig. Even then, I doubt they take a QB early in the draft this year. 

Barring a trade down scenario- which would be optimal, the Jets will simply go BPA and it will not be a QB or an OT or a WR or a S or a MLB. It will be a CB, RB, or Pass Rusher.

I'm guessing either L. Fournette- RB or D.Barnette out of Tenn, with M.Garrett a slight possibility if he slides down a la L.Williams in 2015. A CB is also a possibility, especially if one of them separates themselves leading up to the draft as the clear cut top CB prospect  (Humphrey- Alabama, Q.Wilson- Florida, Lattimore- Ohio State, A. Jackson- USC, Tabor- Florida, Sidney Jones- Washington, take your pick, any one of these guys can shoot up draft boards).  

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35 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Someone who could actually be trusted to be the #2 QB in 2017. By definition a mid to late round draft pick is likely a #3 QB/practice squad fodder. Hack is not ready to be the #2 QB and he still need major overhauls in some of his mechanics according to the coaches. What makes you think he'll be ready to be the #2 if Petty proves to be the #1? And let's not even get into the discussion of what QB the Jets will bring in if Petty is bad down the stretch and they stick him as the #2 and sign someone they shouldn't. It's what the Jets always do.

Hack absolutely must be our #2 next year.  This is the NFL, if you're drafted in the 2nd round, and are incapable of being the #2 in your second year, you are a total bust.

I'm confidant Hack can fill the #2 role, presuming Petty shows enough to warrant him being the #1 going into next season. 

35 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

And again, I'm not sure why you're confusing the fact that a "veteran" and a "young FA" could be the exact same player. I gave no names and no terms of years of service. Literally a 2nd year QB is a veteran simply because they aren't a rookie anymore. You're focusing on minutiae and not the bigger picture.

Because most folks when they say "Veteran" they mean a Veteran, an older, experienced player with (usually) some starter experience under their belt, and a material amount of #2 experience at the least.  A Fitz.  Or a Hoyer.  Or a Kellen Clemens even.

If you want a young kid, thats not a vteran just because he's been in the NFL a year or two as a #3 or a never-played #2.

I'm fine with a young prospect from another team.  Even a Glennon if thats whats best.  But no Hoyers or Fitz or their ilk please, is all I ask.

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5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Hack absolutely must be our #2 next year.  This is the NFL, if you're drafted in the 2nd round, and are incapable of being the #2 in your second year, you are a total bust.

Hmm, seems like a "categorical" statement that could easily have exceptions.

Moreover, it might not be "incapable". It could be "not allowed to".

I mean, wow, people on the internet setting their own rules or following, in lock step, other 'experts' rules without any particular context. You seem so ready to call this guy a bust. Do you have money on it?

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2 hours ago, SAR I said:

I'd have no problem with that-  so long as the team plays hard every game and doesn't mail it in.

STH's have patience for a rebuild.  We're in it for the long haul.  What we have no tolerance for is laziness.  Bowles ability to motivate is the bigger issue, not the quarterbacks.

SAR I

I think that ALL fans are in this camp.  WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH.  We are ready for a rebuild.

Im OK with Petty Hack and another young QB battling for the starting role.  Lets NOT draft a QB in 2017. Lets spend our picks on Oline, secondary etc.

 

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11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Hack absolutely must be our #2 next year.  This is the NFL, if you're drafted in the 2nd round, and are incapable of being the #2 in your second year, you are a total bust.

I'm confidant Hack can fill the #2 role, presuming Petty shows enough to warrant him being the #1 going into next season. 

Because most folks when they say "Veteran" they mean a Veteran, an older, experienced player with (usually) some starter experience under their belt, and a material amount of #2 experience at the least.  A Fitz.  Or a Hoyer.  Or a Kellen Clemens even.

If you want a young kid, thats not a vteran just because he's been in the NFL a year or two as a #3 or a never-played #2.

I'm fine with a young prospect from another team.  Even a Glennon if thats whats best.  But no Hoyers or Fitz or their ilk please, is all I ask.

You may be "confidant" but the coaching staff thus far is not. He's a long way away from being relied upon to even be dressed next season.

There is nothing wrong with having a Hoyer or Fitz type as the back up. Nothing whatsoever. Especially if Hack is still the #3. If Hack makes leaps and bounds next season and by some miracle is ready to actually contribute to the Jets, then by all means draft another project in case both Petty and Hack continue to be just projects.

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The whole plan was for Hackenberg/Petty to be our future.  If both are failures, which both likely are because Jets, then Macc/Bowles have to ride or die with the 2 of them. 

Supposedly there are no franchise QB's in this draft, but good lord, we're due to find a diamond in the rough.  But we won't because Jets. 

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5 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

You may be "confidant" but the coaching staff thus far is not. He's a long way away from being relied upon to even be dressed next season.

There is nothing wrong with having a Hoyer or Fitz type as the back up. Nothing whatsoever. Especially if Hack is still the #3. If Hack makes leaps and bounds next season and by some miracle is ready to actually contribute to the Jets, then by all means draft another project in case both Petty and Hack continue to be just projects.

Yes there is...  we can sign Geno for probably $1.X. Fitz will demand a ransom and he sucks. Id rather have Petty and Geno as back up. There is nothing that Hoyer or Fitz have done that Geno cant. (Good and Bad).  

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43 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Hmm, seems like a "categorical" statement that could easily have exceptions.

Moreover, it might not be "incapable". It could be "not allowed to".

I mean, wow, people on the internet setting their own rules or following, in lock step, other 'experts' rules without any particular context. You seem so ready to call this guy a bust. Do you have money on it?

I never put money on anything Jets related.  I'm not stupid, mate.

I'm not in a rush to call him a bust, but it would be very disappointing for a 2nd round pick to be unable to be the #2 in his second year.  And "not allowed to" is IMO the same as "incapable", since the only reason a GM would not allow it is if the player was grossly incapable of being it.

Of course there are possible exceptions, injury being the most common.

But in general, I expect Hack to be of some value next year, or I would feel criticism of the pick starts becoming valid.  If it takes 3 years just be a #2 QB, he should not have been selected where he was.  

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The only veteran QB I'd be OK with them signing is a Glennon-type. Someone with potential, who can come in and compete with our other young QBs in hopes of becoming the long term starter.

These Hoyer/Fitz/Foles types do nothing but prolong our agony.

Let the young guys have at it.  In the meantime rebuild the O-Line.

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34 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I never put money on anything Jets related.  I'm not stupid, mate.

I'm not in a rush to call him a bust, but it would be very disappointing for a 2nd round pick to be unable to be the #2 in his second year.  And "not allowed to" is IMO the same as "incapable", since the only reason a GM would not allow it is if the player was grossly incapable of being it.

Of course there are possible exceptions, injury being the most common.

But in general, I expect Hack to be of some value next year, or I would feel criticism of the pick starts becoming valid.  If it takes 3 years just be a #2 QB, he should not have been selected where he was.  

Hmmm, I didn't say you were stupid, mate. Nor do I think you are.

But I do think you attribute your own 'logic' to others when, in reality, there could be numerous reasons that you have no idea of why a GM might not act in the expected manner. So, "incapable" and "not allowed to" are definitely not the same. Let's take, for example, Petty not playing until now. There were many reasons, but, IMO, ability was only one factor of many in why he didn't get to play. There are always factors beyond ability why players do or don't get to play. So, if you believe that ability is the only factor than I have to wonder if you've staked a position and are willing to make any statement to support it.

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1 hour ago, southparkcpa said:

Yes there is...  we can sign Geno for probably $1.X. Fitz will demand a ransom and he sucks. Id rather have Petty and Geno as back up. There is nothing that Hoyer or Fitz have done that Geno cant. (Good and Bad).  

Fitz will not demand a ransom the next place he plays. Geno is a bad QB and bad in the locker room. His time as a Jet is done. Can we please move on from discussing either player any further?

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2 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Fitz will not demand a ransom the next place he plays. Geno is a bad QB and bad in the locker room. His time as a Jet is done. Can we please move on from discussing either player any further?

suit yourself.....   Geno, IMO, is an undeveloped talent that if signed by an offensive minded coach, would be a servicable starter in this league. At least as good as Tannehill.

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5 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Fitz will not demand a ransom the next place he plays. Geno is a bad QB and bad in the locker room. His time as a Jet is done. Can we please move on from discussing either player any further?

I sure hope so.

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3 minutes ago, mphtrilogy said:

The only reason to consider a vet is the school room / tape viewing and being a pro, aka Brunell season, but he should be no more than a 3.

 

that being said, I'd draft another qb, make him #3 and let hack and petty duke it out in camps.

I think you consider a vet in case Hack is beyond terrible. But i am saying a vet you don't pay much money to at all, hopefully he ends up being the # 3.

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While yesterday's game was very exciting and a step in the right direction, the team's biggest need remains quarterback. 

Before you pile on me to call me a Petty hater or whatever I want you to watch this clip and pretend it was Fitz or Geno instead of Petty 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000754921/Petty-intercepted-by-Ward-on-first-throw

 

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53 minutes ago, bitonti said:

While yesterday's game was very exciting and a step in the right direction, the team's biggest need remains quarterback. 

Before you pile on me to call me a Petty hater or whatever I want you to watch this clip and pretend it was Fitz or Geno instead of Petty 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000754921/Petty-intercepted-by-Ward-on-first-throw

 

I imagined it. What was that supposed to change?

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13 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I imagined it. What was that supposed to change?

If Fitz threw that same 1st play from scrimmage pick, fans would want to burn this place to the ground 

and if it were any team but SF It would have been game over. People talk about why didn't they start pEtty vs NE, that throw is exactly why. 

 

I guess my point is to all the people who think Bowles can't set a depth chart, there's a fine line between developing a player and ruining him. 

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1 hour ago, Maxman said:

I think you consider a vet in case Hack is beyond terrible. But i am saying a vet you don't pay much money to at all, hopefully he ends up being the # 3.

He doesnt even have to suit up.  He has to help with film work, etc.  

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

While yesterday's game was very exciting and a step in the right direction, the team's biggest need remains quarterback. 

Before you pile on me to call me a Petty hater or whatever I want you to watch this clip and pretend it was Fitz or Geno instead of Petty 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000754921/Petty-intercepted-by-Ward-on-first-throw

 

So Brady, Namath, Marino, Montana, Kelly, Unitas, etc never threw picks? Never threw a bad pick?  One that if it was the only tape you ever saw of that player would make you cringe?  Cant think of anything less relevant to the big picture than the video of a single pass

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2 hours ago, Maxman said:

If Petty progresses from what he was in the 2nd half yesterday this could happen. Not sure about Hack as the # 2 though, I think they would bring in a veteran backup to be safe.

I think people (even coaches?) are underestimating Hack. I think Hack has already improved a lot. I think when he gets the opportunity he will light it up. He just needs some time with the ones or even twos. He should get that next season as the 'red shirt' year is over and the kid gloves are taken off. I think Jets brass is high on him and he will get a shot. He's smart, talented and a hard worker. And IMO- the beating he took at Penn State has not affected him. The kid just needs to work on his consistency- that comes with time, reps and chemistry with WRs.     

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Just now, Jet Nut said:

So Brady, Namath, Marino, Montana, Kelly, Unitas, etc never threw picks? Never threw a bad pick?  One that if it was the only tape you ever saw of that player would make you cringe?  Cant think of anything less relevant to the big picture than the video of a single pass

Using that logic, there's still hope for Mark Sanchez. 

Just to be clear I'm not saying Petty sucks but I am saying the first throw from scrimmage is a particularly bad time to throw a pick 6. 

I actually like petty and root for him but the team needs to keep drafting QBs. 

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5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Using that logic, there's still hope for Mark Sanchez. 

Just to be clear I'm not saying Petty sucks but I am saying the first throw from scrimmage is a particularly bad time to throw a pick 6. 

I actually like petty and root for him but the team needs to keep drafting QBs. 

No, using that logic you cant make a statement about a players career off of one play.  No matter the player.  Doesnt mean that you cant take a player with a exhaustive history of poor play give him a pass because he also has a one play, one INT video.  

Who knows, nervous, dumb luck, whatever, 1st pass to be picked suck but doesnt mean squat if down the road hes become our QB

I agree though, we're not done looking for our QB.  Nothing will be totally decided this season

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