Jets Offseason Plan - slash and burn

[ZachEY]

17 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

The only difference (though it's a meaningful one) is that Mac has the scouting chops to be able to actually identify useful players in the draft.

Source?

[ZachEY]

17 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Totes magotes

Dammit!

[ScarletKnight89]

17 hours ago, NYJ37/12 said:

He had one ball bounce off his chest, one pass he made no attempt to catch as the ball fell to his feet and another he tried to one hand. He ran slow, blocked with little effort. Other than those things, he played well. I like him as well, but this is his m.o when things go bad.

But dropping a pass isn't poor effort. He was trying to make a move before he caught the ball. The one handed attempt was clear PI on the defender.

I think a lot of vets definitely start to show a lack of fire this time of year when their team is this bad, especially when the game isn't going their way and they are getting blown out.

It's not acceptable. But it does happen and will always.

[Savage69]

12 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

But dropping a pass isn't poor effort. He was trying to make a move before he caught the ball. The one handed attempt was clear PI on the defender.

I think a lot of vets definitely start to show a lack of fire this time of year when their team is this bad, especially when the game isn't going their way and they are getting blown out.

It's not acceptable. But it does happen and will always.

That's what Willie Colon said last night on SNY..

[JustInFudge]

29 minutes ago, gEYno said:

I could see Mangold taking the D'Brick route.  Walk away when you still have your health.

Agreed re: Revis.  Why would we want a safety who's effort is lacking?  Lets not pretend Revis's performance is just about skill set at this point?

Exactly, the last thing you need is an overpriced sh*tty CB that is lazy and entitled and thinks that everyone should bow to him because he had one amazing season. 

This dude actually thinks he "paved the way" for the best Corners in the league.  As if he was the first player to ever play CB.

[phill1c]

25 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

But dropping a pass isn't poor effort. He was trying to make a move before he caught the ball. The one handed attempt was clear PI on the defender.

I think a lot of vets definitely start to show a lack of fire this time of year when their team is this bad, especially when the game isn't going their way and they are getting blown out.

It's not acceptable. But it does happen and will always.

Um, NO, the one-armed attempt had nothing to do with an arm around his waist. Marshall routinely does the one-armed attempt because, IMO, he's afraid of taking a shot. And the drops, no matter the reason, are drops and unacceptable.

If the concentration isn't there. If the sell-out effort isn't there, why have him take reps away from guys who may not have his talent but make up for it in concentration and effort?

There's a reason this guy has never been in the playoffs. He's Fitzpatrick at the WR position.

[sirlancemehlot]

19 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Sounds like an Idzik plan!

 

It's exactly what Idzik did.  Minus the awful drafting.  Idzik also piled up comp picks.  Not sure if mac is willing to stick his neck out that far though. 

[peebag]

16 hours ago, flgreen said:

Glennon's a FA

sure but are we going to get into a bidding war for Mike Glennon?

[CanadaSteve]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No. I disagree the call was anyone's to make but his, since he was the GM. He and the staff do not comprise GM-by-committee. It was his call. His. If he was out-voted by the HC, the DC, the DL coach, and their wives and children, it's still his call to make as the GM. 

Also I don't hate him. I just think he's done a lousy job as GM so far basically in all areas: free agency, draft, negotiations, salary cap management, and valuation of draft picks/positions. I do like coffee, though, and it would seem so does he. So there is some common ground.

Also I do like his pickup of Carpenter (even though he was not the player he actually wanted). So far I like Robbie Anderson. I like Leonard Williams (who wouldn't?) but admit I have trouble with the pick because MM was in position to make a move for a QB and instead took a 3rd DE-DT. I'd rather have seen a rookie Mariota throwing to Marshall & Decker. 

Entering his 3rd year as GM, this team is a mess with little to build upon.

He tried to move up....cost too much.  And there were question marks about how good Mariota and/or Winston would be in the NFL.  You can't throw the farm away on one player.  It costs you years and a job.  Ask the Rams how that feels, specifically Jeff Fisher.

Its unfortunate that NFL does not recognize the need for a developmental league, or a farm system.  How much better would the product be if guys had a place to hone their skills, and a place where teams could bring up players in cases of emergency.  I know college was meant to be that, but coaches need to win games to keep their million dollar jobs, and non-pro offenses work in College.  However, they make, in many cases, unprepared QB's for the professional ranks.

 

[jeremy2020]

3 hours ago, hokiejetfan92 said:

Well do you think we should save the cap space to pay Sheldon Richardon and Calvin Pryor instead?

It's better to have bad contracts closer to expiring than letting macc get all new bad contracts that have many more years left. If you free up 60 million for next season, it has to be spent. Better to ride out the contracts you have if you believe Macc can build a team through the draft.

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, rangerous said:

uh....given the way sheldon's and wilk's attitudes are self destructing it looks like picking leo was prescient, no?  maybe the jets wouldn't get a high draft pick in return for either of those guys but getting rid of a cancer is worth it.  and don't forget the great patsies took a chance with hainsworth.  btw the great gm's pick the bpa and not worry too much about how the players is going to be used. 

No. Drafting a franchise QB is worth far, far more than Williams, no matter how good he is and will be. We have Williams now, having a great season, with talented guys next to and around him, and we have 4 wins entering week 16.

Even still, keeping all 3 of them for the past 2 years, as we've seen the value and trade value of the other two plummet from what they were, was just flat-out dumb after selecting Williams.

[joewilly12]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No. Drafting a franchise QB is worth far, far more than Williams, no matter how good he is and will be. We have Williams now, having a great season, with talented guys next to and around him, and we have 4 wins entering week 16.

Sometimes things need to hit rock bottom for those that can fix them realize it.

Its been a terrible season but we are still breathing feet touching the floor and alive. 

It cant get any worse only way is up. 

Peace be with you brother Jets fan. 

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, RSJ said:

You don't like Shell? You don't like the development of Winters? I know Winters wasn't his guy - but he didn't cut him or sign a replacement. You don't like Jenkins? I think there is a decent amount of young guys with potential on this team after just two drafts. 

Actually he did try to; it's just that the guy he drafted couldn't even hold a roster spot as a backup. Since that was the only effort he's shown towards drafting or signing a starting guard, there was no reason to cut Winters.  At the same time, while he didn't cut Winters, he also hasn't signed him past this season either. Winters becomes a UFA in March, so he may have already played his last game for the Jets.

If you want to credit him for keeping Winters, well he would have been half the price if he'd been locked up a year ago. If MM manages to re-sign him for $2M/yr or so, I'll give him plenty of kudos for winning that gamble, but I won't pat him on the back for something he hasn't done yet.

It is far too early to like Shell, or asses whether he was worth this coming draft's high 4th round pick. In PS4, wasn't he the one chiefly responsible for getting Petty knocked out of commission?

Jenkins I like fine, but it's way early to call him any more than a kid with upside, just like on the day he was drafted.

That really isn't enough, since Lee looks like even poorer draft value than the day he was selected, and I thought he was pretty lousy value back then just by virtue of the position he plays.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

9 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

Except that Mariota had already been taken off the board by the time the Jets drafted. I think Mac has brought more players to the Jets than Idzik and Tanny combined and will continue his plan. Got to have patience with GM more so than HC because he is picking the players the HC can use. 

The Titans were clearly entertaining trade offers. We just didn't throw our hat into the ring. Philadelphia didn't come up with enough, but that doesn't mean he was unattainable. 

Think of our selection of Williams at #6. Maccagnan was listening to offers; it's not like he had his heart set on drafting him. No one ponied up what he wanted (so far it seems no one would ever pony up what Maccagnan wants for any player), so he took Williams.

[RSJ]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Actually he did try to; it's just that the guy he drafted couldn't even hold a roster spot as a backup. Since that was the only effort he's shown towards drafting or signing a starting guard, there was no reason to cut Winters.  At the same time, while he didn't cut Winters, he also hasn't signed him past this season either. Winters becomes a UFA in March, so he may have already played his last game for the Jets.

If you want to credit him for keeping Winters, well he would have been half the price if he'd been locked up a year ago. If MM manages to re-sign him for $2M/yr or so, I'll give him plenty of kudos for winning that gamble, but I won't pat him on the back for something he hasn't done yet.

It is far too early to like Shell, or asses whether he was worth this coming draft's high 4th round pick. In PS4, wasn't he the one chiefly responsible for getting Petty knocked out of commission?

Jenkins I like fine, but it's way early to call him any more than a kid with upside, just like on the day he was drafted.

That really isn't enough, since Lee looks like even poorer draft value than the day he was selected, and I thought he was pretty lousy value back then just by virtue of the position he plays.

 

We agree. It's early as most of these guys have only been here a year or two.

As far as Lee goes, who would you have taken instead? Last years draft looks pretty meh after about 15. Its still early to judge Lee too imho. I think he is very raw still - but athletic. So he still has potential as far as I am concerned. Its when guys play early and look totally out of place athletically that I personally get down on them this early in the game.

Yes I think it was Shell who got Petty knocked out. He has made some serious progress. Word is he was young and raw. Young and raw seems to be a common theme in Mac's drafts.

[EM31]

20 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Sometimes things need to hit rock bottom for those that can fix them realize it.

Its been a terrible season but we are still breathing feet touching the floor and alive. 

It cant get any worse only way is up. 

Peace be with you brother Jets fan. 

The Browns are rock bottom  There is down from here.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, RSJ said:

We agree. It's early as most of these guys have only been here a year or two.

As far as Lee goes, who would you have taken instead? Last years draft looks pretty meh after about 15. Its still early to judge Lee too imho. I think he is very raw still - but athletic. So he still has potential as far as I am concerned. Its when guys play early and look totally out of place athletically that I personally get down on them this early in the game.

Yes I think it was Shell who got Petty knocked out. He has made some serious progress. Word is he was young and raw. Young and raw seems to be a common theme in Mac's drafts.

I wouldn't bullsh** you and claim I'd have drafted this or that player with the benefit of hindsight. I also don't really follow the prospects as closely as I once did, and don't pretend to either. 

What I do feel is the ILB-OLB 'tweener position is unworthy of a top 20 overall pick. Grab a 3rd rounder for that position or a moderately-priced FA. Save your top draft picks for positions that are truly difficult or expensive to fill. 

It isn't to say no player at these cheap positions - ILB, S, TE in particular - would be worth a 1st round pick (e.g. ILB Lewis, S Reed, TE Gronk, etc.), but you have to nail an unbelievably (if not all-time) great one to make the selection look wise. Getting merely ok or decent starters (like Lee probably will be, or like Pryor could be), is piss poor value for the 18th-20th overall selection. Now if you get a merely ok/decent starter at QB, T, pass rushing OLB, or CB, then it's worth more than a higher-ranked ILB or S.

[dbatesman]

On 12/20/2016 at 2:22 PM, Matt39 said:

FA after the season. He's nothing special but a decent enough guy to take snaps on a bad team. The Bears seem to have a functional offense. Amazing how they were able to replace Forte/sarcasm.

Also, point of interest for the people who think no one would ever turn down the Jets job: both Pace and Fox declined to interview with the Jets.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

Also, point of interest for the people who think no one would ever turn down the Jets job: both Pace and Fox declined to interview with the Jets.

Is that actually true?

[dbatesman]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Is that actually true?

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/12/john-fox-jets-interview-broncos

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2015/01/saints_ryan_pace_chiefs_chris_ballard_decline_jets_general_manager_interview_requests.html

[rangerous]

43 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No. Drafting a franchise QB is worth far, far more than Williams, no matter how good he is and will be. We have Williams now, having a great season, with talented guys next to and around him, and we have 4 wins entering week 16.

Even still, keeping all 3 of them for the past 2 years, as we've seen the value and trade value of the other two plummet from what they were, was just flat-out dumb after selecting Williams.

that assumes that the qb picked is a franchise qb.  thus far there is zero indication that even goff is a franchise qb let alone paxton lynch. see the comparison between petty and goff below.

 

CAREER STATSMORE
Season	Team			Passing										Rushing				Fumbles
		G	GS	Comp	Att	Pct	Yds	Avg	TD	Int	Sck	SckY	Rate	Att	Yds	Avg	TD	FUM	Lost
2016	Los Angeles Rams	5	5	88	161	54.7	879	5.5	4	5	15	138	65.7	6	12	2.0	1	3	2
Petty				75	130	57.7	809	6.2	3	6	11	71	64.6	5	19	3.8	0	1	1

[varjet]

27 minutes ago, RSJ said:

We agree. It's early as most of these guys have only been here a year or two.

As far as Lee goes, who would you have taken instead? Last years draft looks pretty meh after about 15. Its still early to judge Lee too imho. I think he is very raw still - but athletic. So he still has potential as far as I am concerned. Its when guys play early and look totally out of place athletically that I personally get down on them this early in the game.

Yes I think it was Shell who got Petty knocked out. He has made some serious progress. Word is he was young and raw. Young and raw seems to be a common theme in Mac's drafts.

This is where it gets interesting:

Other than Paxton Lynch, who passing on may not have been a bad thing, it is hard to fault the Jets from drafting Lee at 15.  The players picked after him were WRs who develop slower.  So, in keeping with my Woody wants to win now theory, Lee was the NOW IMPACT pick that made sense for 2016.  Robbie Anderson is having a better season than the WRs picked after Lee.  But that could change next year.

So Lee was a decent pick for 2016, but that could change.  It calls into question whether Mac was picking BPA and not need, either as directed by Bowles or Woody.  Barron and others were first round picks.  I think Lee, and Williams, are the least of Macc's problems.

I think the Jets Front Office reads every word of these boards and are going to do better going forward.  I think Macc will get it and do a better job. I think Bowles is doomed and will be replaced in 2018.

[j4jets]

Macc has done a fantastic job and has us in a position where we can easily create $62 mil in cap space, never mind all the holes this would create. Can we run a banner for him? Exec of the year again!

[RSJ]

1 minute ago, varjet said:

This is where it gets interesting:

Other than Paxton Lynch, who passing on may not have been a bad thing, it is hard to fault the Jets from drafting Lee at 15.  The players picked after him were WRs who develop slower.  So, in keeping with my Woody wants to win now theory, Lee was the NOW IMPACT pick that made sense for 2016.  Robbie Anderson is having a better season than the WRs picked after Lee.  But that could change next year.

So Lee was a decent pick for 2016, but that could change.  It calls into question whether Mac was picking BPA and not need, either as directed by Bowles or Woody.  Barron and others were first round picks.  I think Lee, and Williams, are the least of Macc's problems.

I think the Jets Front Office reads every word of these boards and are going to do better going forward.  I think Macc will get it and do a better job. I think Bowles is doomed and will be replaced in 2018.

Lee is only 21. ILB at the time was not a huge need. So Lee was kind of a developmental player too. I think Mac's drafts have been 100% about drafting players with the best long term potential. Williams, Hackenberg, and even guys like Shell are young guys with prototypical size and ability for their positions. Lee has prototypical size, just not typical for a 3-4 defense. Except the 3-4 Bowles runs supposedly. 

[varjet]

1 hour ago, RSJ said:

Lee is only 21. ILB at the time was not a huge need. So Lee was kind of a developmental player too. I think Mac's drafts have been 100% about drafting players with the best long term potential. Williams, Hackenberg, and even guys like Shell are young guys with prototypical size and ability for their positions. Lee has prototypical size, just not typical for a 3-4 defense. Except the 3-4 Bowles runs supposedly. 

That is it.  Not just Bowles. Lee looks like Stan Lee of the Cowboys, Ryan Shazier of the Steelers, Kiko Alonso of the Dolphins. 

For Lee to work out, you need cover corners and a free safety.

He was not a terrible pick. What is lacking is the overall plan.

[dbatesman]

2 hours ago, varjet said:

I think the Jets Front Office reads every word of these boards and are going to do better going forward. 

lmao

[varjet]

6 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

lmao

At least in the past, in August Woody Johnson can be found on a bench in East Hampton on Sunday's reading all of the sports pages of the newspapers.  I have seen it multiple times myself.  People think that just because Woody has a large inherited fortune that the Jets are just a sideline for him.  I don't think that is true.  I think that they are his primary job, in addition to politics.

This is probably the best message board on Jets matters.   I would be shocked if he does not read it.

[RSJ]

1 hour ago, varjet said:

That is it.  Not just Bowles. Lee looks like Stan Lee of the Cowboys, Ryan Shazier of the Steelers, Kiko Alonso of the Dolphins. 

For Lee to work out, you need cover corners and a free safety.

He was not a terrible pick. What is lacking is the overall plan.

Excellent points and comparison. Never thought of him compared to those players and it makes corner or safety make some sense in this upcoming offseason.

[JohnnyLV]

Glennon will be the next Fitz. A TRULY mediocre talent that will live off of decent looking stats while really being completely awful at the position, and continuously exposed by better teams. TWO regimes have already bailed on him, and yet people here would rather have the next loser JAG over developing our own QBs,  one of whom has shown quite a bit of promise and has elite skills Glennon cannot sniff. Don't get it. And no I do not care that he has a 2 to 1 INT ratio. He is a JAG backup just like Fitzloser.

[Doggin94it]

On 12/20/2016 at 5:16 PM, peebag said:

we've already have 2 qb projects on the team - no need for 3rd.

Actually, that's exactly when you need a third (especially given Glennon has actually played, and played well, in NFL games).  The other option is to bring in a draft pick in a bad QB year or another Fitzpatrick-esque veteran who will be just good enough to cost us draft position and bad enough that we can never contend.

Glennon will either prove he can be Joe Flacco (i.e. not elite, but good enough to win a SB) or he'll flop and we'll be in position to draft a real elite QB in 2018.

[Doggin94it]

On 12/21/2016 at 9:24 AM, gEYno said:

Source?

Heh.

Robby Anderson, Deon Simon, Charone Peake, Jalin Marshall, Jordan Jenkins ... he's actually been pretty adept at identifying talent deep into the draft or in UDFA.  That's not an accident.

[Doggin94it]

13 hours ago, varjet said:

That is it.  Not just Bowles. Lee looks like Stan Lee of the Cowboys, Ryan Shazier of the Steelers, Kiko Alonso of the Dolphins. 

For Lee to work out, you need cover corners and a free safety.

He was not a terrible pick. What is lacking is the overall plan.

Who else would love to see Stan Lee running sideline to sideline for the Jets, taking out RBs with perfectly drawn pictures of Spider Man?

[sourceworx]

25 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

Actually, that's exactly when you need a third (especially given Glennon has actually played, and played well, in NFL games).  The other option is to bring in a draft pick in a bad QB year or another Fitzpatrick-esque veteran who will be just good enough to cost us draft position and bad enough that we can never contend.

Glennon will either prove he can be Joe Flacco (i.e. not elite, but good enough to win a SB) or he'll flop and we'll be in position to draft a real elite QB in 2018.

Exactly. A Brian Hoyer type of signing is no better than keeping Fitz. It gets us nowhere. 

Glennon, on the other hand, is precisely the type of free agent QB you bring in. He's young and has potential to be a long term solution at the position. Let him compete with Petty and Hack in training camp. 

Use the draft to get a pass-rusher and rebuild the O-Line. 

[southparkcpa]

8 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

Exactly. A Brian Hoyer type of signing is no better than keeping Fitz. It gets us nowhere. 

Glennon, on the other hand, is precisely the type of free agent QB you bring in. He's young and has potential to be a long term solution at the position. Let him compete with Petty and Hack in training camp. 

Use the draft to get a pass-rusher and rebuild the O-Line. 

Mike Glennon is in a sweet spot. Dont know what he'll be paid but his agent is looking at yachts right now.

He will command big money IMO.

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

Heh.

Robby Anderson, Deon Simon, Charone Peake, Jalin Marshall, Jordan Jenkins ... he's actually been pretty adept at identifying talent deep into the draft or in UDFA.  That's not an accident.

I'm really not seeing what anyone is identifying as positive re: Jalin Marshall?