Jets Offseason Plan - slash and burn

[SOJ]

On 12/20/2016 at 0:38 PM, Matt39 said:

Pryor, Amaro, Mcdougle, Saunders, Evans.

 

oof oof oof

Idzik drafted them but don't let facts get in the way of your opinion. 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, rangerous said:

you are obviously advocating that both mac and bowles be launched.  tanny messed up the gholston pick. that was also a no brainer. i guess you think that all draft choices need to pan out.  they don't.  remember the year that the bellichicken drafted 3 te's with his first 3 picks?  none of those guys panned out.  the point is mac has probably done better than most.  i only say probably because i don't want to waste the time looking at every other team's drafts.  

Wrong again. I don't want either of them fired for another year, even though I think both of them deserve it. My reasoning is I don't want either one to be given another 3 year window with a different HC or GM. Both should go together, and since Idzik was just fired after 2 years, the sad reality is we have to keep these big boobs around another year.

Probably doesn't matter in the end, since WJ is insistent upon each reporting to him instead of just the GM reporting to a head of football operations, and the HC reporting to the GM. So we're unlikely to get a good HC or GM in here anyhow. But that doesn't mean I have to like him being wrong with 75% or more of his transactions.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, gEYno said:

Lee hasn't shown nearly enough for his draft position, and less so in coverage.  Lee is an NFL player, there's no doubt, but if you're going to invest in a linebacker in the first round, it should be one that can cover TEs or get at the QB, both of which Lee has not flashed any ability at.  He's simply shown he'll be an okay player.

Burris looks dreadful, and his one highlight is on a poorly underthrown ball.

Shell is a possibility, we'll see.

Robbie Anderson is a real player, and probably Macc's best find.  He needs to get bigger and stronger and learn to protect the ball and he'll be something.

Petty has shown his arm, but not much else.  There's not a lot of reason right now to think he can make the reads necessary to succeed.  We shall see, but he's done nothing that should make you think he's the presumptive starter come 2017.

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, NoBowles said:

I gotta be honest, trading up a huge ransom for Winston, Mariota, Goff or Wentz would have been a huge risk. Winston and Mariota were both seen as very high risk propositions for various reasons. Winston had a ton of question marks around his behavior, and many people were questioning whether or not Mariota would translate to the NFL. Its one thing to take those guys in your draft slot, another totally to trade up a ton to get them. Goff was seen as much more of a sure bet, but also was not seen to have a very high NFL ceiling. Wentz on the other hand was said to have a very high ceiling, and also a very unsure thing. 

Your looking at all this with 20/20 hindsight.

Winston was unavailable, so I don't fault him for missing out on him at all. I never have and never will.

Any of the other 3 I wouldn't have had a problem with. They were all high level prospects. Just like, as much as I was (and am) no fan of his game, I'm not hypercritical of the trade-up for Sanchez. Or taking a stab at Geno at the top of round 2. Give that a go for a 2-3 years, and if it doesn't pan out, then try again. But this pussyfooting around trying to strike oil with later QB picks is no less of a gamble when the dust settles. Years are still wasted, draft picks and contracts to supplement these lipstick-wearing pigs, likewise wasted. 

It's not 20/20 hindsight to realize the team needed a QB and that the odds of nailing it go down when you try doing it with the likes of the four (four!) QBs we went with this year.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Yes, really.  Find me a post where I explicitly call for Maccs firing.  That's why I called you on this ridiculousness.  Criticism is labeled as wanting to fire GMs every two years.

Well yeah, that is the pattern:

Valid criticism of the GM, with specific reasons as to why = you want us to fire a GM every 2 years!

Valid criticism of the HC, with specific reasons as to why = you want to fire him after only 2 years! (or in my case, apparently I wanted to fire him before 1 year was up lol)

Valid criticism of the 4-win results this year = you expect a Super Bowl every year!

Criticism of a young player doing/looking poorly out of the gate = you can't negatively judge a bad looking player until 3 years is up. You can only (conveniently) form early positive judgment of one looks good early on.

[southparkcpa]

7 hours ago, Adoni Beast said:

I dont think he'll get Osweiler $ for two reasons:

1. Osweiler killed the market for unproven QB's demanding big money.

2. Osweiler came off a team where he started half the year and didnt derail a championship team. He only lost his job cause Manning got healthy. Glennon hasnt started in years and has barely played.

He as all free agents will get overpaid. But, I'm not seeing the 18 mil/year deal. I'm thinking more in the 10-12 mil/year range.

Who mentioned Osweiller?  He will still get big bucks.

[rangerous]

17 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Our GM has taken TWO shots at a QB, and its very likely he whiffed at both.  If you want a topflight QB, your GM has to be able to nail the pick when he actually, you know, takes QB's.  Otherwise what good is he?

he took a shot with a 4th round pick and then one with a second.  are you saying that both of these guys aren't going to be serviceable qb's in the future?  petty is doing about as well as can be expected and while you can have a beef with hack not even being dressed is sitting out a year for a rookie qb such a bad thing?  brady sat out his first season and so did chaddy.  this year's prom winner goff sat out the first half.  the bottom line is there is zero evidence that mac whiffed on both qb picks.  the only argument that might hold some water is not trading up to get mariota.  but then you're most likely looking at a team with mariota and not much else in the way of drafted players.  i'm sure mac can school just about any fan in why hack is a good pick.

[rangerous]

17 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Wrong again. I don't want either of them fired for another year, even though I think both of them deserve it. My reasoning is I don't want either one to be given another 3 year window with a different HC or GM. Both should go together, and since Idzik was just fired after 2 years, the sad reality is we have to keep these big boobs around another year.

Probably doesn't matter in the end, since WJ is insistent upon each reporting to him instead of just the GM reporting to a head of football operations, and the HC reporting to the GM. So we're unlikely to get a good HC or GM in here anyhow. But that doesn't mean I have to like him being wrong with 75% or more of his transactions.

so 3 years is your threshold.  meanwhile it takes about 3 seasons to evaluate a draft class.  so you are evaluating mac on essentially 1.5 seasons of draft picks.  the contracts will work themselves out. i'm sure if mac is reading this he's wondering what you're smoking.

and you say you don't want them launched but then call them boobs.  if they are such boobs then i should think everyone would want them launched.  i agree with the assessment of woody's misguided management structure.  he really needs to appoint a director of football operations if he wants to keep mac and bowles at the same accountability level.  woody has done some really good things for this team.  this management structure is not one of them.

[NoBowles]

17 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Winston was unavailable, so I don't fault him for missing out on him at all. I never have and never will.

Any of the other 3 I wouldn't have had a problem with. They were all high level prospects. Just like, as much as I was (and am) no fan of his game, I'm not hypercritical of the trade-up for Sanchez. Or taking a stab at Geno at the top of round 2. Give that a go for a 2-3 years, and if it doesn't pan out, then try again. But this pussyfooting around trying to strike oil with later QB picks is no less of a gamble when the dust settles. Years are still wasted, draft picks and contracts to supplement these lipstick-wearing pigs, likewise wasted. 

It's not 20/20 hindsight to realize the team needed a QB and that the odds of nailing it go down when you try doing it with the likes of the four (four!) QBs we went with this year.

I still say it all comes down to talent evaluation and talent development. Either Maccagan and Bowles can or can't. My guess is even if Maccagan can recognize talent, Bowles cannot put a staff together that can develop it at the QB position. I personally did not love any of the 4 of them, and thought all 4 were reaches with high fail potential. Right now at least 3 of the 4 are looking pretty damn good, so yeah, in hindsight, I wish he had broke the bank for one of them. That said, I have zero confidence that any of them would be playing at a high level on our crap team right now.

[Sperm Edwards]

11 hours ago, rangerous said:

so 3 years is your threshold.  meanwhile it takes about 3 seasons to evaluate a draft class.  so you are evaluating mac on essentially 1.5 seasons of draft picks.  the contracts will work themselves out. i'm sure if mac is reading this he's wondering what you're smoking.

and you say you don't want them launched but then call them boobs.  if they are such boobs then i should think everyone would want them launched.  i agree with the assessment of woody's misguided management structure.  he really needs to appoint a director of football operations if he wants to keep mac and bowles at the same accountability level.  woody has done some really good things for this team.  this management structure is not one of them.

No, I'm evaluating him on all of his moves, not merely the draft (unimpressive as that anyway is for a career scout). In 2 seasons - not "1.5 seasons" - he's shown he's good at absolutely nothing.

All contracts eventually work themselves out by definition, in that all players' contracts and careers eventually come to an end. That isn't any kind of rationalization, so I couldn't care less what Mac thinks of my - frankly, accurate - assessment of his job to date.

For all the presumption of personal angles, I don't have a dog in this race other than a desire to see the Jets do well. I don't care if it's Maccagnan, if Woody makes himself the GM (lol) or if someone competent is actually brought in. Whatever works - including a sudden improvement in Maccagnan's job performance - is what I'm happy with. Unfortunately, this isn't working and he's given no serious reasons to believe it ever will under his watch.

[Warfish]

On 12/23/2016 at 5:11 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Wrong again. I don't want either of them fired for another year, even though I think both of them deserve it. My reasoning is I don't want either one to be given another 3 year window with a different HC or GM. Both should go together, and since Idzik was just fired after 2 years, the sad reality is we have to keep these big boobs around another year.

Probably doesn't matter in the end, since WJ is insistent upon each reporting to him instead of just the GM reporting to a head of football operations, and the HC reporting to the GM. So we're unlikely to get a good HC or GM in here anyhow. But that doesn't mean I have to like him being wrong with 75% or more of his transactions.

So Macc should never be allowed to hire his own Coach then, is that right?  Live and die by someone elses guy, when he fails, Macc goes with him?

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

So Macc should never be allowed to hire his own Coach then, is that right?  Live and die by someone elses guy, when he fails, Macc goes with him?

That situation never should have been there in the first place, but the past cannot be changed. A different HC could make him look a little better, but it won't make a total failure of a cumulative tenure into a total success. The roster, for which he is solely responsible, is a giant hot mess.

The alternative is to effectively give him a contract extension and lock him in until the 2020 season. 

I'm far more comfortable with the lesser of 2 evils: give them both 1 more year and dump them together after 3 seasons. 

[CanadaSteve]

On 2016-12-23 at 5:42 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Well yeah, that is the pattern:

Valid criticism of the GM, with specific reasons as to why = you want us to fire a GM every 2 years!

Valid criticism of the HC, with specific reasons as to why = you want to fire him after only 2 years! (or in my case, apparently I wanted to fire him before 1 year was up lol)

Valid criticism of the 4-win results this year = you expect a Super Bowl every year!

Criticism of a young player doing/looking poorly out of the gate = you can't negatively judge a bad looking player until 3 years is up. You can only (conveniently) form early positive judgment of one looks good early on.

Do you HONESTLY think that, or perhaps the better question is, what do you think is an HONEST amount of time to allow a system to be put in place.

Would you have honestly been calling for Reggie Mackenzie's head after two years in Oakland?  Now, with the hindsight of seeing five years and what he accomplished, would you take it.

I would also like to know what you thought of Mac last year as he was named Executive of the year, and could some of your displeasure be how bad the Jets faltered.  If the Jets went 10-6 this year, would you be calling for people's heads?

I ask this because rather than the constant bickering between us on these topics, I think it be more wise, and interesting, to really know why you think this way. 

My opinion on these topics is this:  Unless you REALLY botch things, I cannot see how you can't give a GM a minimum of 3 years.  Some players need to develop, and a bad pick one year looks like a great pick three years down the road (Enunwa is the PERFECT example.  It wouldn't take a long time to search the number of posters who called for Enunwa's head last year with his drop issues, and now he is considered a rising star on our team).

Coaches, I think, should be hired by a GM who will then hire solid assistants to put the GM's system into place.  The coach should be there 3 years as well, unless he loses a team (which it is started to look the case of Bowles).  GM's should be able to fire their coach, especially if the players in place look the part of a system but are underachieving.

This is why I advocate for Mac to get at least one more year.  I do not think his drafts as been as bad as some, and I'm 50/50 on his FA signings.

In all honesty, I would like to know....that way, I would know where guys like you and JoeWilly come from so as not to just unproductive banter  with you guys!  In the end, we're all Jets fans that just want to see the team win in our lifetime!

[Warfish]

12 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That situation never should have been there in the first place, but the past cannot be changed. A different HC could make him look a little better, but it won't make a total failure of a cumulative tenure into a total success. The roster, for which he is solely responsible, is a giant hot mess.

The alternative is to effectively give him a contract extension and lock him in until the 2020 season. 

I'm far more comfortable with the lesser of 2 evils: give them both 1 more year and dump them together after 3 seasons. 

I think you're going to find yourself in a small, and exclusively fan populated, minority who believe Macc has been a "total failure".  Nor have you really made a convincing argument that the moves Macc made were not the proper and logical moves in the moment in which they were made (hindsight makes everyone a genius when they didn't have to make the decisions themselves).  It's disappointing many of these moves failed, but again, the talent is here (outside QB), the performance and motivation clearly is not.

In any event, Merry Christmas to you my old friend.  Let's all hope however it comes, we get better next year and beyond.  

[Sperm Edwards]

8 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Do you HONESTLY think that, or perhaps the better question is, what do you think is an HONEST amount of time to allow a system to be put in place.

Would you have honestly been calling for Reggie Mackenzie's head after two years in Oakland?  Now, with the hindsight of seeing five years and what he accomplished, would you take it.

I would also like to know what you thought of Mac last year as he was named Executive of the year, and could some of your displeasure be how bad the Jets faltered.  If the Jets went 10-6 this year, would you be calling for people's heads?

I ask this because rather than the constant bickering between us on these topics, I think it be more wise, and interesting, to really know why you think this way. 

My opinion on these topics is this:  Unless you REALLY botch things, I cannot see how you can't give a GM a minimum of 3 years.  Some players need to develop, and a bad pick one year looks like a great pick three years down the road (Enunwa is the PERFECT example.  It wouldn't take a long time to search the number of posters who called for Enunwa's head last year with his drop issues, and now he is considered a rising star on our team).

Coaches, I think, should be hired by a GM who will then hire solid assistants to put the GM's system into place.  The coach should be there 3 years as well, unless he loses a team (which it is started to look the case of Bowles).  GM's should be able to fire their coach, especially if the players in place look the part of a system but are underachieving.

This is why I advocate for Mac to get at least one more year.  I do not think his drafts as been as bad as some, and I'm 50/50 on his FA signings.

In all honesty, I would like to know....that way, I would know where guys like you and JoeWilly come from so as not to just unproductive banter  with you guys!  In the end, we're all Jets fans that just want to see the team win in our lifetime!

I was plenty critical of moves he made before this season began. I couldn't care less what award he won; it is meaningless, since he'd gave won nothing if not for a perfect storm schedule and Idzik leaving him so much cap space (and such an easily improved-upon 2014 record).

He and Bowles should be given one more year and then, if it's mostly more of the same, given walking papers. Maccagnan hasn't earned an additional 3 years guaranteed years.

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

I think you're going to find yourself in a small, and exclusively fan populated, minority who believe Macc has been a "total failure".  Nor have you really made a convincing argument that the moves Macc made were not the proper and logical moves in the moment in which they were made (hindsight makes everyone a genius when they didn't have to make the decisions themselves).  It's disappointing many of these moves failed, but again, the talent is here (outside QB), the performance and motivation clearly is not.

In any event, Merry Christmas to you my old friend.  Let's all hope however it comes, we get better next year and beyond.  

I don't need any majority to agree with me yet. They eventually will if we get more of the same from him. 

Hope you're having a merry Christmas yourself. 

And to your last point, we all want the same end result.  If it happens due to some great GMing from Maccagnan, all the better as it's in our collective interest. 

[Doggin94it]

Ugh. Can't believe it's come to this.
Cut:
Ryan Clady. Too injury prone to justify a large dollar contract on a rebuilding team. Cap Savings: 10M
Nick Mangold. This hurts, but he's not what he once was. Cap Savings: 9.75M
Brandon Marshall.  In the last year of his deal, no dead money, and Decker, Enunwa and Anderson are a fine trio of starters to roll with (and under contract for a few more years).  I like the player, love the person he's become, but we can't pay this price at that age with a year left on his deal.  Cap Savings: 7.5M
Marcus Gilchrist.  Has not worked out very well, and if Revis moves to FS it won't even cost anything to replace him.  Cap Savings: 4.625M
Buster Skrine.  Another player who has not worked out at all, and is currently slated to cost 8.5M against the cap.  Cap Savings: 3.5M
Sheldon Richardson (trade for whatever the highest offer is, or cut if nobody is even offering a conditional seventh):  Adds nothing to this team and is a locker room problem.  We already have two elite 3-4 DEs in Wilkerson and Williams, and nowhere to play Richardson anyway.  The only reason to keep him would be for the comp pick after letting him walk as a FA after the season, and paying $8M for that privilege would be insane.  Cap Savings: 8M
Breno Giacomini.  'Nuff said.  Cap Savings: 4.5M
Nick Folk. This team can't spend 3.5M on a placekicker.  Cap Savings: 3M
Erin Henderson. Overpaid as a backup without much utility, passed on the depth chart by Julian Stanford anyway.  Cap Savings: 2.75M
Restructure (or cut if they won't):
Darelle Revis. Move Revis to S if he's willing to take a paycut to 6.5M for next year.  That's 500K more than his guarantee and he has offset language, so that number is a "win" for Darelle and more money than he'll see if he's cut. I'd be willing to go up to 7M if that's what it takes.  Cap Savings: 8.5M (if restructured), 8M (if cut)
David Harris.  It's only fitting that he and Revis go together.  A great teammate and leader, but he's extremely overpaid as - at best - a 2 down LB, and we drafted his replacement last year.  If he's willing to restructure and extend for close to the vet minimum to be a backup and locker room leader, great.  If not, hold a press conference to thank him for what he's meant to the team and send him on his way.  Cap Savings: 6.5M.
Doing all that leaves the Jets with ~62M in cap room.  More importantly, it creates 20M in extra cap room for 2018 by getting rid of players like Skrine a year early (prior to those moves, the Jets are about 4M over the projected 2017 cap, per Jason)
FA:  Overall, the plan here is not to spend a ton of money.  2017 is not a year the Jets will be competing for the Super Bowl, so it should be focused on building a good foundation for a run.  Extend Enunwa, resign Brian Winters if he comes at a reasonable price, resign Wesley Johnson as the starting C.  Pick up a tackle and plan to draft another to start.  Pick up complementary players at TE, CB, and LB, and look to draft a LB.  Let unused cap space roll over to 2018, where we should be poised to make a real impact in the market.
And QB?  I'd go hard after Mike Glennon - he's got a real chance to start and enough upside to be worth spending real money on, even in a rebuilding year.  For his career (mostly playing on an awful Bucs team as a rookie), he's 59.4% passing, for 4,100 yards and 30TDs to 15INTs.  I wouldn't throw crazy money at him, but if he'd take 10M per with escalators, in a structure that would let the Jets bail after 2 years if he flames out, sign me up.  A QB competition between him, Petty and Hack next year would be a pretty good spot for the Jets, comparatively, and it will let us wait on QB in a year where the prospects aren't particularly great and a lot of teams ahead of us are in need. 

so far, so good

Sent from my SM-G920T using JetNation.com mobile app

[CanadaSteve]

On 2016-12-23 at 3:16 PM, gEYno said:

Did I suggest Pro Bowlers at every position?

Interesting that you bring this up though, because we don't have Pro Bowlers at ANY position.

Yeah we do.,

 

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, CanadaSteve said:

Yeah we do.,

 

Isn't that the dream?!?!? A team where your one good player makes the pro-bowl as an alternate?

J!

[CanadaSteve]

Just now, gEYno said:

Isn't that the dream?!?!? A season where your one good player makes the pro-bowl as an alternate?

J!

You said we don't have any pro-bowl players.  I said we do.  2 actually.  1 just did not play up to his pro-bowl standards.  That's all.

 

[ZachEY]

Just now, CanadaSteve said:

You said we don't have any pro-bowl players.  I said we do.  2 actually.  1 just did not play up to his pro-bowl standards.  That's all.

 

When I made the comment, over two months ago, no current Jet was selected to the Pro Bowl.

That is a fact.

Since then, one Jet was added as an alternate and played in the game.

[CanadaSteve]

9 minutes ago, gEYno said:

When I made the comment, over two months ago, no current Jet was selected to the Pro Bowl.

That is a fact.

Since then, one Jet was added as an alternate and played in the game.

Chill dude!  Just messing with you.

We don't have much on this team right now, but if they are doing what I hope they are, which is gutting and going with a youth movement, we could have many more pro-bowlers soon!

[Jack Straw]

Mike Glendon's career stat line of 30 TDs 15 INTs and 4100 yards looks great until you realize it took him 30 games to accomplish that.




Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app