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23 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

In order of things that I did not want, coming off last season. These as a PSU fan. Starting with things  wanted the least:

1. Christian Hackenberg declaring for the NFL draft

2. John Donovan coaching Christian Hackenberg

3. James Franklin coaching Christian Hackenberg

4. A read option QB system being run for Christian Hackenberg

5. Christian Hackenberg being drafted by the NYJ.

Summary- I saw talent in Hack, and wanted someone to tap into that and see what could be released. You do not walk in as a true freshman, start in a major conference, have great success, without there being something there. The shift from O'Brien to the Franklin system, and the subsequent downfall of Hack are too coincidental to ignore. Or maybe they aren't, and he became a basket case because struggles with Econ 210. I can't read inside the kid's head.

I remember being pissed at PSU and at Franklin, as Hack announced his intentions to go pro, immediately after PSU's last game last season. It was immediate. There was no consideration to let the process stew. He bolted as quickly as he could.

To temper all of this, I was prepared to have the least emotional support for the PSU program that I can ever remember coming into this season. The fact of having an unproven QB, and the fact that having Frankin look as clueless as any coach I have seen, prepared me for the worst. After the Michigan game, I wanted his head on a platter. I was ready to begin lobbying Rhule at Temple for the job.

As the draft approached, I braced myself for where Hack may go. I thought that a round 4 pick was possible, based on raw skills alone. But those qualifications needed to be tempered with the expectation that he would go to a team that was solid at the position, and did not need a savior. A la Rogers going to Green Bay, to serve as apprentice to Favre. People forget that Rogers was "mechanically flawed" and people felt needed time. 

That is Hack x3. The kid is screwed up in the head as much mechanically. I am sure. Not a great combo. But someone needs to chisel away and see what they can form. The problem for him, is that he is with a team, and drafted in a slot that cannot allow for that. And understandably so.

Long answer to your short question, and I did not answer it directly.

This is a great breakdown, and fair. Though, I wonder how much of Hack's freshman success is given more weight because of the hype surrounding him at the time--that people gave him extra credit based on the trajectory it seemed to suggest, which obviously never panned out. 

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We all knew that Hack was not starting this year, that was made clear by the CS. If reports are true or the CS staff feels he won't be ready hopefully Mac will have the mindset to find us a franchise QB. I know there are no QB 's in the draft worth a first round pick. I don't fully by into that, I remember some people wanting to draft Dak, and some wanted nothing to do with him. There were posters who wanted Goff  and some who wanted Wentz, you just never know.

There will be a guy or two this year that can lead a franchise. I have no problem with Mac taking a QB early if the FO and scouts believe in a QB ( not that I have much faith in them). Hack might be horrible or he might turn into a great QB down the road, but no more bandaids go after the most important position on the team if you believe he is there.  If not go CB early what can go wrong?

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3 minutes ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

We all knew that Hack was not starting this year, that was made clear by the CS. If reports are true or the CS staff feels he won't be ready hopefully Mac will have the mindset to find us a franchise QB. I know there are no QB 's in the draft worth a first round pick. I don't fully by into that, I remember some people wanting to draft Dak, and some wanted nothing to do with him. There were posters who wanted Goff  and some who wanted Wentz, you just never know.

There will be a guy or two this year that can lead a franchise. I have no problem with Mac taking a QB early if the FO and scouts believe in a QB ( not that I have much faith in them). Hack might be horrible or he might turn into a great QB down the road, but no more bandaids go after the most important position on the team if you believe he is there.  If not go CB early what can go wrong?

I believe the most likely scenario is that we're drafting a CB at 6, moving Revis to safety, and that we'll "win" a bidding war for Romo or Cutler. I don't think Maccagnan nor Bowles have the guts to do anything else, really.

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9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

This is a great breakdown, and fair. Though, I wonder how much of Hack's freshman success is given more weight because of the hype surrounding him at the time--that people gave him extra credit based on the trajectory it seemed to suggest, which obviously never panned out. 

Everyone has a starting point. With Hack, it seemed that he had a head for the game at such a young age. Of course, one becomes influenced by his high school credentials and rank as a prospect, and the notoriety of Bill O'Brien and what was acknowledged with what he had done with Brady and what we had witnessed in McGloin. You can become drunk with this kind of stuff.

Make no mistake about this though, O'Brien force fed the kid his entire system. There were no reins put on him, and he assimilated that system and was running it. Was it perfection, or Heisman trophy type stuff? No. But it was reasonable to look at him at that time, and project him as a pro style qb as a senior who would be drafted very high. This was not only PSU supporters saying it at the time.

Then came the Franklin regime, and it changed drastically. Maybe it was just a coincidence, and that change happened as others figured him out. But you could visually see the mechanics change. His drop changed. He looked far less confident as he carried himself. And the play calling befit a pop-gun arm. Maybe they were trying to cover the lack of quality on the line, but it was not play calling that catered to Hack's style and strengths.

Or, maybe the kid is a basket case, and never recovers. 

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4 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Everyone has a starting point. With Hack, it seemed that he had a head for the game at such a young age. Of course, one becomes influenced by his high school credentials and rank as a prospect, and the notoriety of Bill O'Brien and what was acknowledged with what he had done with Brady and what we had witnessed in McGloin. You can become drunk with this kind of stuff.

Make no mistake about this though, O'Brien force fed the kid his entire system. There were no reins put on him, and he assimilated that system and was running it. Was it perfection, or Heisman trophy type stuff? No. But it was reasonable to look at him at that time, and project him as a pro style qb as a senior who would be drafted very high. This was not only PSU supporters saying it at the time.

Then came the Franklin regime, and it changed drastically. Maybe it was just a coincidence, and that change happened as others figured him out. But you could visually see the mechanics change. His drop changed. He looked far less confident as he carried himself. And the play calling befit a pop-gun arm. Maybe they were trying to cover the lack of quality on the line, but it was not play calling that catered to Hack's style and strengths.

Or, maybe the kid is a basket case, and never recovers. 

I suppose, but I don't think you see redemption stories at quarterback, ever. The fact is, right now, Hackenberg can't throw a football to a receiver at an effective enough rate to get into meaningless games, a year removed from James Franklin. That's pretty troubling.

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I believe the most likely scenario is that we're drafting a CB at 6, moving Revis to safety, and that we'll "win" a bidding war for Romo or Cutler. I don't think Maccagnan nor Bowles have the guts to do anything else, really.

Sounds about right unfortunately. I actually wouldn't have a problem if we took the #1 CB at 6. I know that is not the most popular choice but it also depends on what happens in FA.

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1 minute ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

Sounds about right unfortunately. I actually wouldn't have a problem if we took the #1 CB at 6. I know that is not the most popular choice but it also depends on what happens in FA.

The problem, for me, with drafting a CB at six is that this regime has dumped a lot of resources into the secondary already and now they have to burn another first rounder to patch a hole. It's an indictment all around. Couple that with Idzik whiffing on Pryor and Milliner, and it's almost silly how much we've invested in what might be the worst secondary in the league. And the ******* coach is supposed to be great with DB's. As with Rex and defensive linemen, if Bowles is such a good DB coach, he shouldn't need premium resources committed to that position group, especially when the rest of the team needs help.

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11 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Everyone has a starting point. With Hack, it seemed that he had a head for the game at such a young age. Of course, one becomes influenced by his high school credentials and rank as a prospect, and the notoriety of Bill O'Brien and what was acknowledged with what he had done with Brady and what we had witnessed in McGloin. You can become drunk with this kind of stuff.

Make no mistake about this though, O'Brien force fed the kid his entire system. There were no reins put on him, and he assimilated that system and was running it. Was it perfection, or Heisman trophy type stuff? No. But it was reasonable to look at him at that time, and project him as a pro style qb as a senior who would be drafted very high. This was not only PSU supporters saying it at the time.

Then came the Franklin regime, and it changed drastically. Maybe it was just a coincidence, and that change happened as others figured him out. But you could visually see the mechanics change. His drop changed. He looked far less confident as he carried himself. And the play calling befit a pop-gun arm. Maybe they were trying to cover the lack of quality on the line, but it was not play calling that catered to Hack's style and strengths.

Or, maybe the kid is a basket case, and never recovers. 

it looks like mccags put a lot of faith in the fact that hack embraced a pro offense at a young age and proved he could run it.  it's difficult to find guys who can do this at any level, so at this point i'm assuming mccags figured he go for the playoffs this year and then use this offseason to work on hack's mechanics w/o the daily distractions of the season.  whether hack pans out, i'd rather invest in a guy like hack who prefers a pro style offense than a guy like petty who has to learn it from scratch.

for me the big question is, as hack's mechanics are fixed, does this improve accuracy or are the accuracy issues so independent of mechanics that he's not a viable starter.

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3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

it looks like mccags put a lot of faith in the fact that hack embraced a pro offense at a young age and proved he could run it.  it's difficult to find guys who can do this at any level, so at this point i'm assuming mccags figured he go for the playoffs this year and then use this offseason to work on hack's mechanics w/o the daily distractions of the season.  whether hack pans out, i'd rather invest in a guy like hack who prefers a pro style offense than a guy like petty who has to learn it from scratch.

for me the big question is, as hack's mechanics are fixed, does this improve accuracy or are the accuracy issues so independent of mechanics that he's not a viable starter.

While I do prefer a pro style passer, Hack's feet are like Herman Munster's. He will need a wall of granite offensive line, and trust the pocket.

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The problem, for me, with drafting a CB at six is that this regime has dumped a lot of resources into the secondary already and now they have to burn another first rounder to patch a hole. It's an indictment all around. Couple that with Idzik whiffing on Pryor and Milliner, and it's almost silly how much we've invested in what might be the worst secondary in the league. And the ******* coach is supposed to be great with DB's. As with Rex and defensive linemen, if Bowles is such a good DB coach, he shouldn't need premium resources committed to that position group, especially when the rest of the team needs help.

I can't argue with that, we should be able to find CB talent in the later rounds or FA with our coach who played the damn position.  It all depends on how the board falls. It would be nice to have some offensive talent taken in the first round. 

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4 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

While I do prefer a pro style passer, Hack's feet are like Herman Munster's. He will need a wall of granite offensive line, and trust the pocket.

he's not immobile, i've seen highlights of him scrambling.  the quicker and better he can read defenses the less he'll need to run anyway.  i just fear we're all waiting for the great pumpkin here, where we draft a cb, te, ot, etc., and have another year of no clear qb succession path.  

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41 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I suppose, but I don't think you see redemption stories at quarterback, ever. The fact is, right now, Hackenberg can't throw a football to a receiver at an effective enough rate to get into meaningless games, a year removed from James Franklin. That's pretty troubling.

Garcia, Gannon, Young... all redemption stories... not sure what you are talking about... there are plenty out there.

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you guys are out there. we are talking about redemption stories for a kid who is like 21 and is yet to throw a pro pass in the NFL? you keep basing your opinions on anonymous sources and espn (people still watch espn??) see how far that gets you. Personally i have a lot of respect for the current regime...they drafted Hack to develop him and didn't give in to you nudniks clamoring to put him into a game behind a second string OL to get killed half way through the season.

I'll reserve my pitchfork for guys who have actually gotten a shot and blew it...Geno, Sheldon, etc...

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3 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

you guys are out there. we are talking about redemption stories for a kid who is like 21 and is yet to throw a pro pass in the NFL? you keep basing your opinions on anonymous sources and espn (people still watch espn??) see how far that gets you. Personally i have a lot of respect for the current regime...they drafted Hack to develop him and didn't give in to you nudniks clamoring to put him into a game behind a second string OL to get killed half way through the season.

I'll reserve my pitchfork for guys who have actually gotten a shot and blew it...Geno, Sheldon, etc...

And history. And his college career. And every draft analysis of this player. And the past 9 months. But whatever.

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2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

no please tell me the steve young story

Young signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1985 after being the first player selected in the 1984 NFL Supplemental Draft of USFL and CFL Players. However, the Buccaneers posted 2–14 records in each of Young's two seasons with them, and Young's record as starter was 3–16. In his 19 games, he threw for only 11 touchdowns with 21 interceptions while completing fewer than 55% of his passes. Although his time in Tampa Bay was miserable, San Francisco 49ers coach Bill Walsh was impressed by Young's natural abilities and felt that his problems were due to the struggling Bucs organization.

The Buccaneers selected University of Miami quarterback Vinny Testaverde first overall in the 1987 NFL Draft because Young was deemed a bust. Young was traded to the San Francisco 49ers on April 24, 1987 to serve as a backup to Joe Montana. The Buccaneers received second and fourth round draft picks in the trade, which they used to draft Miami linebacker Winston Moss, and Arizona State wide receiver Bruce Hill, respectively

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1 minute ago, Skeptable said:

Young signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1985 after being the first player selected in the 1984 NFL Supplemental Draft of USFL and CFL Players. However, the Buccaneers posted 2–14 records in each of Young's two seasons with them, and Young's record as starter was 3–16. In his 19 games, he threw for only 11 touchdowns with 21 interceptions while completing fewer than 55% of his passes. Although his time in Tampa Bay was miserable, San Francisco 49ers coach Bill Walsh was impressed by Young's natural abilities and felt that his problems were due to the struggling Bucs organization.

The Buccaneers selected University of Miami quarterback Vinny Testaverde first overall in the 1987 NFL Draft because Young was deemed a bust. Young was traded to the San Francisco 49ers on April 24, 1987 to serve as a backup to Joe Montana. The Buccaneers received second and fourth round draft picks in the trade, which they used to draft Miami linebacker Winston Moss, and Arizona State wide receiver Bruce Hill, respectively

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Wikipedia, man. It's got all the answers.

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mel kiper: http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2016/insider/story/_/id/15230437/2016-nfl-draft-mel-kiper-grades-draft-class-every-nfl-team

mayock: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000656619/article/mike-mayocks-2016-nfl-draft-pickbypick-analysis

gruden: http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2016/05/watch_jets_christian_hackenberg_on_jon_grudens_qb.html

i am sure everyone has read all of this stuff...and there is more...bottom line is everyone said the same thing...lets the kid develop. so lets let the kid develop.

also, interesting that you bring up the "last 9 months"...what did you expect to see? or is this strictly based on the "source"?

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Just now, T0mShane said:

Wikipedia, man. It's got all the answers.

Anyway, there are numerous other QB failures that turned into good or even great QBs... was my point... There are plenty of redemption stories, so to say there is none is incorrect.

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2 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

mel kiper: http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2016/insider/story/_/id/15230437/2016-nfl-draft-mel-kiper-grades-draft-class-every-nfl-team

mayock: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000656619/article/mike-mayocks-2016-nfl-draft-pickbypick-analysis

gruden: http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2016/05/watch_jets_christian_hackenberg_on_jon_grudens_qb.html

i am sure everyone has read all of this stuff...and there is more...bottom line is everyone said the same thing...lets the kid develop. so lets let the kid develop.

also, interesting that you bring up the "last 9 months"...what did you expect to see? or is this strictly based on the "source"?

Yes. I develop all of my opinions based on anonymous sources. All of them.

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Just now, T0mShane said:

Yes. I develop all of my opinions based on anonymous sources. All of them.

ok, so if not the nonsense then what in the last 9 months has led you to be down on him? considering he was always meant to sit this year.

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2 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Anyway, there are numerous other QB failures that turned into good or even great QBs... was my point... There are plenty of redemption stories, so to say there is none is incorrect.

I don't want to rain on the pro-Hack parade, but literally every hope you have for him is based on pure and simple faith and there isn't much you can point to otherwise. I don't believe you fix accuracy issues, and he seems to be an emo mush besides. I don't believe environment is the issue with Hack as much as it is his head.

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Just now, T0mShane said:

I don't want to rain on the pro-Hack parade, but literally every hope you have for him is based on pure and simple faith and there isn't much you can point to otherwise. I don't believe you fix accuracy issues, and he seems to be an emo mush besides. I don't believe environment is the issue with Hack as much as it is his head.

I am neither for Hack or against him... I just was correcting you based on you saying there is no redemption stories at QB in the NFL... and that is all.

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4 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

ok, so if not the nonsense then what in the last 9 months has led you to be down on him? considering he was always meant to sit this year.

Thy drafted a guy you couldn't put on the field--at all--in the second round and you're encouraged by this? This "well, he was meant to sit/this was a redshirt year" sh*t is something you apply to seventh rounders and street free agents. You guys are treating Hackenberg like he was raised in the jungle by gorillas and needs time acclimating to human culture. The dude had nine months to learn how to perform a five step drop and couldn't do it, for ****'s sake.

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1 minute ago, Skeptable said:

I am neither for Hack or against him... I just was correcting you based on you saying there is no redemption stories at QB in the NFL... and that is all.

Ok, but Gannon and Garcia were UDFA's who took years to become effective NFL players and Young was the first overall pick. Each of them could throw a football where they wanted it to go. Hack cannot. 

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Just now, T0mShane said:

Thy drafted a guy you couldn't put on the field--at all--in the second round and you're encouraged by this? This "well, he was meant to sit/this was a redshirt year" sh*t is something you apply to seventh rounders and street free agents. You guys are treating Hackenberg like he was raised in the jungle by gorillas and needs time acclimating to human culture. The dude had nine months to learn how to perform a five step drop and couldn't do it, for ****'s sake.

i think those are 2 separate arguments, and i think its a valid one to make. if you dont think they should have drafted a guy in the second round to sit him...fine. i can point to others who were drafted higher and sat...rodgers, favre, rivers, etc... but i think its a legit argument.

my point is, if you were ok with it when they drafted him...i dont see why you wouldnt be ok with it now...but if you werent then you shouldnt be now.

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3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I don't want to rain on the pro-Hack parade, but literally every hope you have for him is based on pure and simple faith and there isn't much you can point to otherwise. I don't believe you fix accuracy issues, and he seems to be an emo mush besides. I don't believe environment is the issue with Hack as much as it is his head.

The odds are certainly stacked against Hack for many reasons. I still don't get the complete and utter temper tantrum being thrown though about the Jets taking a chance on him. After all, we wasted higher picks on Kellen Clemens and Geno Smith at the QB position. If you want a QB, you have to draft them, then develop them. If both Lynch and Hack fail, which is the highest probability, it will have been better to have taken Hack then Lynch.  Can we just see how he plays out over the next year for crying out loud?

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Just now, T0mShane said:

Ok, but Gannon and Garcia were UDFA's who took years to become effective NFL players and Young was the first overall pick. Each of them could throw a football where they wanted it to go. Hack cannot. 

And your point is??? These are still redemption stories... Vinny T, Kurt Warner.. All I am saying is that they are redemption stories no matter how you want to qualify them or not.

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Just now, k-met57 said:

i think those are 2 separate arguments, and i think its a valid one to make. if you dont think they should have drafted a guy in the second round to sit him...fine. i can point to others who were drafted higher and sat...rodgers, favre, rivers, etc... but i think its a legit argument.

my point is, if you were ok with it when they drafted him...i dont see why you wouldnt be ok with it now...but if you werent then you shouldnt be now.

True story: when they drafted Hack I was so distraught that my iPad slipped out of my hands onto the concrete floor. There's a crack bisecting the screen. So, my disappointment is consistent and real.

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