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Damon Harrison leader on the Giants Defense

joewilly12

By joewilly12
in NY Jets Forum

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hokiejetfan92

hokiejetfan92

Posted
Posted
54 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The problem is that Wilkerson was coming off of a season with 11 sacks. So he was more than a run stuffing DE. He was a pass rusher. And in the modern NFL, that is worth its weight in gold.

And in all honesty, it kind of shows what Macc thinks of Deon Simon, who played well this year.

Yeah Macc definitely did a nice job of replacing Harrison with competent players. I came off as undervaluing Wilkerson in the post too he was coming off 2 consecutive borderline pro bowl years and he certainly is more of a pass rusher than Harrison. But Wilkerson would also have been replaced without even signing anyone else. And Wilkerson was going to come off surgery

But fast forward to now and Wilkerson never got traded, now he gets exposed as a poor leader and someone not totally invested in the game. Things go poorly and he decides he can be late on his birthday. I feel like the loss of Harrison is deeper than just DVOA, or your average rush yard against stats. Sheldon and Wilk seem to have some sort of relationship where they would rather have fun playing football then be the best players they can be.

I know we didn't know these things, but why didn't the coaches take notice of stuff like this? Wilkerson's talent and skill set is certainly worth his contract, but you need more than just individual production out of your $!8 million dollar player. I just think Bowles and Macc probably should have foreseen how positive Harrison's effect on the locker room and how hard he worked on every play compared to Wilkerson. The whole team follows the leaders, thats what happened to the jets d this year.

In terms of leadership and off the field stuff, what effect do you think Wilkerson, Revis, and Richardson did for the defense this year? These were the 3 players (also David Harris) management chose to be the leaders of the Jets defense. 

Edit I just turned on ESPN and Harrison said "he has plenty of playoff experience because he consistently wins superbowls in Madden and his teammates can come to him for support if they want". I just realized I am probably super biased on this I really love Snacks and I miss him

 

 

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whodeawhodat

whodeawhodat

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, hokiejetfan92 said:

Not to just argue with you about the same topic in two threads (but I'm about to)

I think we shoulda kept Snacks. The Pats paid WIlfork top dollar for their standards to be a 3-4 NT up until his mid 30's, Kris Jenkins made changed our defense when he was healthy. The Chargers had some NT that was amazing when we played them in the playoffs in mid 2000s don't feel like looking him up.

In general one of the easiest ways to attack the 3-4 defense is running the ball up the middle. Obviously 3 d linemen compared to 4 is going to is going to give the offensive line some sort of advantage. The DE's are there to occupy blocks, and and elite NT consistently demands double teams (C is generally weakest position across the oline). I understand that a elite speed rushing OLB in the 3-4 is more valuable than a NT, but Wilkerson was not a speed rushing OLB.

Snacks just seems to be a special player. He is probably the best NT in the league and his leadership, the surplus of run stuffing DE's on the roster should have made it easy to let Wilkerson walk and get a comp pick back. Wilkerson was late to meetings in the past, Joe Klecko publicly said at points he sees Wilkerson take plays off.

By franchising Harrison, he would have started at like 13.9 mill. The jets would have had more leverage in negotiating a long term deal. He might not have held out,  since he's a leader.

I'm a big believer there are always exceptions to every rule, and even if common philosophy is it is not wise to invest  >10 mill a year in a NT may be right 95% of the time, but not when it comes to players like Snacks or WIlfork, a healthy Kris Jenkins.

Just there aren't many NT's like them at one time. We just let one walk away

Exactly, when your teammates know you demand at least 2 offensive linemen and even with 2 guys you are still producing.  you have to keep that.  IDGAF if it is only for 2 downs.  not only is he a beast but high character.  refuses to get outworked.  I root for snacks and lmao when i see 1 guy try to block him.  it is like JV vs varsity.  total joke.

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whodeawhodat

whodeawhodat

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

You need to stop being ridiculous do you even understand the 3-4 defense ? Most important part of the line is the NT they are hard to find and good ones are very rare. Having 4 DT's on the line like we did at times is what's ridiculous. Snacks can play with a true 3-4 and do well. Paying all those DT's is dumb when we lack LB's to play in that scheme

 

Of course we were when you have safeties in the box as much as we did your going to be good against the run what did that scheme do for us up top ? You can stop anything you want in the NFL with bodies but one dimensional football is a losing proposition .

I think it was more of why run on us when our CB is giving 10 yard cushions.  i didnt notice our safeties playing so close and didnt see them making so many plays up by the line on the run.

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

Posted
Posted

Why do people keep robotically insisting the time to make a decision on him was in Feb-March of 2016?

It's like every Jets fan has forgotten we held his rights a full year earlier as a RFA, which was the perfect time to offer an extension for many millions less than he got in 2016.

It's like people are bending over backwards to find reasons why our GM has never made a mistake ever, including undeniably, blatantly obvious ones like this.

We've got McLendon for maybe $2m/yr less than Snacks would have been a year earlier. Or around the same amount that was considered worthwhile for Jarvis Jenkins.

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BurnleyJet

BurnleyJet

Posted
Posted

Muhammad Wilkerson
27-Year-Old Defensive End – New York Jets

2016 Defensive Stats
Tckl
58
Sacks
4.5
Int
0
FF
1
TD

844
Defensive Snaps in 2016
Muhammad Wilkerson was on the field for 844 of his team's snaps on defense in 2016.

 

Damon Harrison
28-Year-Old Defensive Tackle – New York Giants

2016 Defensive Stats
Tckl
86
Sacks
2.5
Int
0
FF
1
TD
0

674
Defensive Snaps in 2016
Damon Harrison was on the field for 674 of his team's snaps on defense in 2016.

I know who I'd sooner have signed..

 

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Smashmouth

Smashmouth

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Why do people keep robotically insisting the time to make a decision on him was in Feb-March of 2016?

It's like every Jets fan has forgotten we held his rights a full year earlier as a RFA, which was the perfect time to offer an extension for many millions less than he got in 2016.

It's like people are bending over backwards to find reasons why our GM has never made a mistake ever, including undeniably, blatantly obvious ones like this.

We've got McLendon for maybe $2m/yr less than Snacks would have been a year earlier. Or around the same amount that was considered worthwhile for Jarvis Jenkins.

The DL decisions Macc has made are the single biggest gaff of his tenure here. I can see some of the others but I can't see how he handled the DL being defended. Now if there coach had a big say in that then its on them both and I have no problem at all putting blame on them both for this. Bowles was the guy who wanted Lee the fast coverage type MLB but the sad part is Lee does not fit a 3-4 scheme he's just too small and will break down . Sure we can call certain formations hybrid's but in all honestly I'm sick of that bullsh*t excuse heard it enough with Rex

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Smashmouth

Smashmouth

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Harrison all pro.  Vic Beasley all pro.

new gm please.

hard to put the blame on GM's for passing on certain guys that's all hindsight bullsh*t. What can't be excused is the mis management of the current roster that's a more telling sign and I hold Bowles just as accountable for that since he needs to sell his scheme to the GM then the GM needs to move forward with a plan. Problem is we can see Bowles system sucks

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SenorGato

SenorGato

Posted
Posted

Easy to get love when surrounded by a bunch of better/more valuable players (Hankins, JPP, Vernon) during a successful season plus get a mini-vacation every game. This is like saying Jason Heyward'a defense and postseason speech are THE reasons the 2016 Cubs were as dominant as they were. 

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Barton

Barton

Posted
Posted

The Jets let go the best NT in the NFL - entering his prime, so they can keep three 3-4 defensive ends on the roster and play 1 of them at OLB.

One of the worst decisions in Jets free agent history. You NEED a nose tackle, not a trio of high paid defensive tackles with the exact same skill set (Leo, Mo, Sheldon). 

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Barton

Barton

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

hard to put the blame on GM's for passing on certain guys that's all hindsight bullsh*t. What can't be excused is the mis management of the current roster that's a more telling sign and I hold Bowles just as accountable for that since he needs to sell his scheme to the GM then the GM needs to move forward with a plan. Problem is we can see Bowles system sucks

Exactly. Bowles wants attacking pass rushing D-tackles, not a run stuffer.

Mac: Lets keep Snacks. 

Bowles: Doesnt fit my scheme, but if we can afford it maybe.

Mac: Prioritizes other free agents per his head coaches request. Harrison walks to the giants.

Bowles: plays sheldon richardson at OLB and he has 2 sacks.

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Barton

Barton

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, bgivs21 said:

Hits you right in the feels as a Jet fan. Great player, great guy, fan favorite, turned into a great leader. Unfortunately for us, we couldn't resign him because of the position we were in. 

Jets could have easily re-signed him. they chose to let him go. 

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68JET11

68JET11

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

It was the wrong move to keep Wilk and let Snacks go its very hard to find a high end NT if you want to run a 3-4 .... He was also the best run stopper in the NFL along with grabbing double teams on a regular basis. And this ain't hindsight I said from the beginning the DL in a 3-4 are Occupiers you spend your money at the LB position NOT the defensive line. So now were stuck with Idiot Sheldon who's value goes down with every stupid comment and Wilk who looks like he wants to coast with his 80 mil. Both should have been let go and the Defense should have moved forward with Williams and Harrison both of whom are Above average Lineman in a 3-4 scheme and that's rare to have TBH

Its time to cut losses and get some real LB's in here if you look at all the great 3-4 defenses its always been about LB's and ours have deteriorated over the years. Also if your running a 3-4 you don't draft 225 pound LB's you draft 250 pound LB's Bowles wanted the light fast guy in Lee but he does not fit our scheme and if we continue running the 3-4 he Never will.

Also you don't draft LB's who you project as pass rushers you draft solid football players who can play the position and let them develop into pass rushers if need be the good ones usually do.

Someone who gets it.... As you say he was an occupier which is one of the most important jobs of the 3-4. The better option was to trade Mo, yes I know his value wasn't exactly through the roof, but you had Sheldon under contract for 2 more years at that time. I would have sat Snacks, Sheldon & Leo down and explained that to them as GM. 

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thadude

thadude

Posted
Posted

Snacks - is unblockable.  A great guy in the lockerroom.  PFF ranked him best run defender in the entire NFL.  Offensive Coordinators have to allocate 2 OL to block him plus a chip from the RB.  Cost $45 million

 

Mo - skips team meetings, plays uninterested, has become a lockeroom cancer.  Cost: $90 million

 

 

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Savage69

Savage69

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, thadude said:

Snacks - is unblockable.  A great guy in the lockerroom.  PFF ranked him best run defender in the entire NFL.  Offensive Coordinators have to allocate 2 OL to block him plus a chip from the RB.  Cost $45 million

 

Mo - skips team meetings, plays uninterested, has become a lockeroom cancer.  Cost: $90 million

 

 

But Mo is still on the fast track to the HOF and a better career then Klecko..;)

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JetsFanatic

JetsFanatic

Posted
Posted

First off the Jets didn't let Snacks go, they tried to sign him but the Giants outbid them as they had much more cap space.  Also coming off 2015, the signing of Wilkerson was the right move to make.  Obviously Wilkerson had a poor season though he did play better in the last few weeks giving hope that he under achieved do to effects from the injury he suffered in the 2015 season finale and will bounce back in 2017.

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SenorGato

SenorGato

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, thadude said:

This fanbase overrated Mo like crazy

There are people here who actually believe he sucks and that Harrison was more valuable even coming off the field for ~40% of the D snaps. Not like one person but multiple people. If anything people still are mostly clueless as to how valuable and good a Wilkerson is.

Harrison, once again, is in a situation where he's maybe the 3rd, 4th, or 5th most valuable player in the front 7. Now he's a leader on a team where he is likely not even the best DT, yet again, and has played the same QB for nearly 15 years with two SBs victories in that time. That many Jets fans think $8+ million to stop the run and come off the field is a steal also should hint at their ability to ID overrated/underrated or place proper value for a skill set.

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BurnleyJet

BurnleyJet

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

There are people here who actually believe he sucks and that Harrison was more valuable even coming off the field for ~40% of the D snaps. Not like one person but multiple people. If anything people still are mostly clueless as to how valuable and good a Wilkerson is.

Harrison, once again, is in a situation where he's maybe the 3rd, 4th, or 5th most valuable player in the front 7. Now he's a leader on a team where he is likely not even the best DT, yet again, and has played the same QB for nearly 15 years with two SBs victories in that time. That many Jets fans think $8+ million to stop the run and come off the field is a steal also should hint at their ability to ID overrated/underrated or place proper value for a skill set.

More of your none Fact based Information:-.

 

 Mo has 58 Tackles Snacks 86, and importantly only 2 more sacks then Snacks for 18 mill per.

Snacks Harrison is ALL PRO and the number 1 NT in the NFL for half the money.

Even on the Snap count Mo 844 Snacks 674 that's 80% of the Snaps taken by Mo. Not 40% less.

Tackles per Play Mo 58 in 844 Tackles 6.8% for Snaps Taken

Tackles per Play Snacks 86 in 674 Tackles 12.8% for Snaps Taken.

So Snacks is also twice has likely to makes a play then Mo.

Sacks are what we play DE 18 mill per Mo 4.5 Snacks 2.5 a laughable return.

If anyone one really thinks Mo is worth double what Snacks is wants their bumps feeling!

 

Muhammad Wilkerson

27-Year-Old Defensive End – New York Jets

2016 Defensive Stats

Tckl

58

Sacks

4.5

Int

0

FF

1

TD

0

2016 Defensive Projections

Tckl

Sacks

Int

FF

TD

See Our 2016 Projections

844

Defensive Snaps in 2016

Muhammad Wilkerson was on the field for 844 of his team's snaps on defense in 2016.

 

Damon Harrison

28-Year-Old Defensive Tackle – New York Giants

2016 Defensive Stats

Tckl

86

Sacks

2.5

Int

0

FF

1

TD

0

2016 Defensive Projections

Tckl

Sacks

Int

FF

TD

See Our 2016 Projections

674

Defensive Snaps in 2016

Damon Harrison was on the field for 674 of his team's snaps on defense in 2016.

 

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Larz

Larz

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

More of your none Fact based Information:-.

 

 

 

you really can only use the information that was available at the time to judge a decision. Mo was the best pass rusher of 300 lb plus players, and played something  like 95% of the reps and was dominant in the run game.  Snacks came out of the game on 3rd down.

the run defense was not the problem this year.

if we payed snacks and let Mo go, we would be hearing "yay we still play 1950's football around here , we need pass a rusher"

c'mon man

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BurnleyJet

BurnleyJet

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Larz said:

you really can only use the information that was available at the time to judge a decision. Mo was the best pass rusher of 300 lb plus players, and played something  like 95% of the reps and was dominant in the run game.  Snacks came out of the game on 3rd down.

the run defense was not the problem this year.

if we payed snacks and let Mo go, we would be hearing "yay we still play 1950's football around here , we need pass a rusher"

c'mon man

It appears Mo isn't ones either, but we are playing 18 mill per for someone half has good as Damon Harrison.

 

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Larz

Larz

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

It appears Mo isn't ones either, but we are playing 18 mill per for someone half has good as Damon Harrison.

 

Mo would have been somewhere else, with better leadership and culture, and would have probably had a much better year. It really makes no sense to use his 2016 jets season to compare anything

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ylekram

ylekram

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Larz said:

Mo would have been somewhere else, with better leadership and culture, and would have probably had a much better year. It really makes no sense to use his 2016 jets season to compare anything

yea, because mo is supposed to be the leader of this defense.

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Larz

Larz

Posted
Posted
Just now, ylekram said:

yea, because mo is supposed to be the leader of this defense.

Actually, reports were they made him promise to stop missing meetings while negotiating his deal, he has never been considered a leader

 

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