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Reliving Dec. 30th, 2007 -- Kansas City Chiefs at New York Jets


ZachEY

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3 hours ago, Bugg said:

Not faulting Bit or anyone else. But for anyone to say if they drafted Ryan, x, y and then z happens almost the same way, it's rampant speculation. It's fun, and we all do it here. May be it plays out in a good way or a mediocre way or a great way. Too many variables to say how things would have happened. Personally can remember badmouthing Ryan. And while he will probably be the MVP, still hasn't won anything-yet. He's got a chance to rewrite a few things in 2 weeks. 

It's no coincidence that the Falcons got to the SB when they had home field advantage.  Look at what happened when they had to go on the road and play the Giants in the playoffs a few years ago.  His throws looked awful in the meadowlands.  

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15 hours ago, SAR I said:

No, the biggest reason they made the move is because the fanbase was done with Chad Pennington.

Every other year he sucked in crunch time, every other year he was injured and cost us the entire season.

After 6 years of Chad, we'd had enough.  He was Geno Smith, only cuter.

SAR I

if that is the case that is the problem, that is woody's biggest flaw.  he listens to the fans too much and our fans as a whole are pretty clueless.

13 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

It's pretty ironic considering Tanny loved to give away draft picks (but not in the case where it REALLY would've made a difference).

he tried, he didn't want to give up what they were asking.  Imagine if he gave up the farm and it's 9 years later and he has 1 PO win, what do you think people would say?  I remember the Giants fans being done w/ Eli during the 2007 season b/c of what they paid and how eli was playing to that point.  let us not forget that Eli and Coughlin were on the hot seat in 2007, if they don't get on that run who knows? and that is a patient organization.

10 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Kenny was not boo'd almost weekly. 

 Not even close to being true

he was booed all the time, he was hated by Jet fans his final few years from 1990-1992.  the only time I remember a big ovation was when he came in for Browning Nagle in the Buffalo Monday Night game in 1992 but that was more about Nagle and less about Ken.

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I was there and nyjunc has a much different memory of the Walton era than I do.  He degrades O'Brien way more than most and I think he forgets how truly ****ed up Walton was as head coach.  I feel like it is an alternate reality, but we do have a more similar take on the vastly overrated Favre Jets, so maybe it is selective memory for one or both of us.  It is hardly worth getting into.  OTOH if anybody wants to badmouth Al Toon or Jerry Holmes I will fight them. 

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38 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I was there and nyjunc has a much different memory of the Walton era than I do.  He degrades O'Brien way more than most and I think he forgets how truly ****ed up Walton was as head coach.  I feel like it is an alternate reality, but we do have a more similar take on the vastly overrated Favre Jets, so maybe it is selective memory for one or both of us.  It is hardly worth getting into.  OTOH if anybody wants to badmouth Al Toon or Jerry Holmes I will fight them. 

I never mentioned Walton era, the Walton era ended in 1989(when Ken was benched for Tony Eason by the way).  I started going to games in 1990 when Bruce Coslet took over.  Ken played under bruce from 1990-1992, Ken was routinely booed at that Stadium in those years.

you back Ken and love Toon?  Toon's career was ended b/c of all the high throws from ken that got Al killed over the middle.

 

by the way, I was a HUGE Ken fan when I was a kid.  I was also impressed by a nice deep ball not realizing how he was holding us back so I was very aware of criticism inside the stadium.

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15 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

you back Ken and love Toon?  Toon's career was ended b/c of all the high throws from ken that got Al killed over the middle.

People keep spouting this bullsh*t.  Toon was tough and caught the ball over the middle.  He said that he got knocked out because of a big hit he took early his last season, so that during the year some lesser knocks were putting him out. O'Brien played three games his last year.  That sh*tbag Nagle started 13.  Toon's career was ended because the Jets doctors were criminally negligent.  That (and his also being a tough possession WR) is why Chrebet is a mess.  O'Brien was long gone before that dude even came on board, so was it your boys Vinny Testicles and Chad throwing high that ruined him?  Those sh*t doctors were also why they were willing to pick up Ronnie Lott.  I remember talking to a guy who said that when he was on the Raiders it would take 3-4 ammonia caps to wake up Lott after some hits, but he kept playing.  He said that was part of the reason they moved on from him.  That is the "Just win baby!" Raiders, but with the Jets he was "fine." 

I love Toon because he was ******* awesome.  Period.  No argument. 

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26 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

People keep spouting this bullsh*t.  Toon was tough and caught the ball over the middle.  He said that he got knocked out because of a big hit he took early his last season, so that during the year some lesser knocks were putting him out. O'Brien played three games his last year.  That sh*tbag Nagle started 13.  Toon's career was ended because the Jets doctors were criminally negligent.  That (and his also being a tough possession WR) is why Chrebet is a mess.  O'Brien was long gone before that dude even came on board, so was it your boys Vinny Testicles and Chad throwing high that ruined him?  Those sh*t doctors were also why they were willing to pick up Ronnie Lott.  I remember talking to a guy who said that when he was on the Raiders it would take 3-4 ammonia caps to wake up Lott after some hits, but he kept playing.  He said that was part of the reason they moved on from him.  That is the "Just win baby!" Raiders, but with the Jets he was "fine." 

I love Toon because he was ******* awesome.  Period.  No argument. 

he had numerous concussions every season, his career ended on one particular hit but it was from hit after hit after hit.  he was fearless and ken would throw it up there for him to go get and get crushed.

 

what does Chrebet have to do w/ O'Brien? so every player that retires due to concussions does so b/c passes were high?  Toon got crushed on a weekly basis w/ O'Brien's passes over the middle.  that's a fact, watch some old games and clips.  he also threw some great passes beyond the defense but on an almost weekly basis he got Toon killed over the middle.

 

 

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17 hours ago, nyjunc said:

ok so how many other winning records/playoff apps did they have w/ that coaching staff, management team and the other players around him?

if you think Miami was going 11-5 w/o Chad I don't know what to tell you.

the biggest reason they made the move was b/c they couldn't trust him to stay healthy, I understood on that level but it wasn't worth the Favre risk.

That is still not proof, any more than claiming without Fitzpatrick the Jets don't go 10-6 in 2015. The answer, rather than this false narrative you're creating, is it depends upon which QB would be starting in his stead. If you go from Pennington to Chet Lemon, for example, I agree it's very unlikely they go 11-5. But they weren't going 11-5 a year later with him either. They started 0-3 before he got injured again, and his lone TD in those 3 games was a garbage-time dumpoff to Ricky Williams. You'll excuse me if I'm not so impressed.

Regardless, you cannot place Pennington in Favre's spot and presume every win with Favre is still a win with Pennington, and starting at that point begin to remove losses incurred under Favre. It's a game people like to play, and you're playing it now.

Again, you don't know if Pennington lasts 3 games on that 2008 team before getting injured again, and that's part of the package with him. 

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12 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he had numerous concussions every season, his career ended on one particular hit but it was from hit after hit after hit.  he was fearless and ken would throw it up there for him to go get and get crushed.

 

what does Chrebet have to do w/ O'Brien? so every player that retires due to concussions does so b/c passes were high?  Toon got crushed on a weekly basis w/ O'Brien's passes over the middle.  that's a fact, watch some old games and clips.  he also threw some great passes beyond the defense but on an almost weekly basis he got Toon killed over the middle.

 

 

Toon was fearless.  Plenty of WRs would have gotten plenty of concussions under the circumstances.  What Chrebet has to do with it is that the Jets medical staff was horrible and kept trotting them back out.  There were plenty of articles about it.  Don't pretend that you didn't know that.  Chrebet got killed over the middle too.  If you get the completion, I'm not sure how/why you blame the QB.  But hey, all Kenny O's fault. 

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

if that is the case that is the problem, that is woody's biggest flaw.  he listens to the fans too much and our fans as a whole are pretty clueless.

Perhaps that was the case with Mark Sanchez who flashed very strongly in 6 postseason games, but the book was written on Chad Pennington by Year 6, it was time to move on.

With Woody, in fact, he often takes too long to move on.  Chad, Tannenbaum, and Rex the biggest offenders.

SAR I

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I was there and nyjunc has a much different memory of the Walton era than I do.  He degrades O'Brien way more than most and I think he forgets how truly ****ed up Walton was as head coach.  I feel like it is an alternate reality, but we do have a more similar take on the vastly overrated Favre Jets, so maybe it is selective memory for one or both of us.  It is hardly worth getting into.  OTOH if anybody wants to badmouth Al Toon or Jerry Holmes I will fight them. 

I don't think anyone looks back at the 1 year with Favre as the good old days of Jets past. I just think it's ridiculous to award Pennington every win the team did get with Favre as a foregone conclusion, and then tack on additional, certain, would-be wins above that baseless baseline.

That Favre was so often going through the motions and just winging it on every dropback is a nice narrative, but it's such an irrational exaggeration that it's also obviously untrue. Also, had Mangini not been afraid of being the guy who benched an injured Favre & ended his streak, who knows what the results would have been? Hey, maybe we'd have still won only 1 more game the rest of the way with Clemens, but we'll never know. That it also coincided with the injury to Jenkins (and he, not Revis, was quite arguably the team's best & most important defender through that 8-3 start that year), which gets glossed over as though it was insignificant, only piles onto the narrative.

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43 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That is still not proof, any more than claiming without Fitzpatrick the Jets don't go 10-6 in 2015. The answer, rather than this false narrative you're creating, is it depends upon which QB would be starting in his stead. If you go from Pennington to Chet Lemon, for example, I agree it's very unlikely they go 11-5. But they weren't going 11-5 a year later with him either. They started 0-3 before he got injured again, and his lone TD in those 3 games was a garbage-time dumpoff to Ricky Williams. You'll excuse me if I'm not so impressed.

Regardless, you cannot place Pennington in Favre's spot and presume every win with Favre is still a win with Pennington, and starting at that point begin to remove losses incurred under Favre. It's a game people like to play, and you're playing it now.

Again, you don't know if Pennington lasts 3 games on that 2008 team before getting injured again, and that's part of the package with him. 

sometimes we have to use common sense.  I don't think there is any doubt IF Chad stays healthy(that is a big if but he stayed healthy in Miami so let's assume he stays healthy here) we win the division in 2008.

39 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Toon was fearless.  Plenty of WRs would have gotten plenty of concussions under the circumstances.  What Chrebet has to do with it is that the Jets medical staff was horrible and kept trotting them back out.  There were plenty of articles about it.  Don't pretend that you didn't know that.  Chrebet got killed over the middle too.  If you get the completion, I'm not sure how/why you blame the QB.  But hey, all Kenny O's fault. 

That was how football was back then, it was a league wide, sport wide thing. although we did have that crooked Dr on our payroll it happened everywhere.

Watch old clips of Toon taking shots over the middle.  Kenny set him up, not intentionally but he played a major role in his concussions.

38 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Perhaps that was the case with Mark Sanchez who flashed very strongly in 6 postseason games, but the book was written on Chad Pennington by Year 6, it was time to move on.

With Woody, in fact, he often takes too long to move on.  Chad, Tannenbaum, and Rex the biggest offenders.

SAR I

In reality I didn't have a problem moving on from Chad based on his durability issues, what I didn't like(and I said this at the time) was bringing in favre a month before the season.  if you couldn't get a deal done in the offseason we shouldn't have made it and rolled the dice w/ Chad for one more year.

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11 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't think anyone looks back at the 1 year with Favre as the good old days of Jets past. I just think it's ridiculous to award Pennington every win the team did get with Favre as a foregone conclusion, and then tack on additional, certain, would-be wins above that baseless baseline.

That Favre was so often going through the motions and just winging it on every dropback is a nice narrative, but it's such an irrational exaggeration that it's also obviously untrue. Also, had Mangini not been afraid of being the guy who benched an injured Favre & ended his streak, who knows what the results would have been? Hey, maybe we'd have still won only 1 more game the rest of the way with Clemens, but we'll never know. That it also coincided with the injury to Jenkins (and he, not Revis, was quite arguably the team's best & most important defender through that 8-3 start that year), which gets glossed over as though it was insignificant, only piles onto the narrative.

go back and watch those games, watch how many balls he would just throw up for grabs.  

 

who was Mangini going to bring in? Clemens? and all favre cared about was his streak- he didn't want to sit.

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13 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't have to go watch anything.  I saw all those games.  More than once.  I am not hooking up a VCR so that I can relive the glory days of Brad Baxter. Hit and Run!

of course not b/c if you saw it would show you won't you don't want to see.

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26 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

In reality I didn't have a problem moving on from Chad based on his durability issues, what I didn't like(and I said this at the time) was bringing in favre a month before the season.  if you couldn't get a deal done in the offseason we shouldn't have made it and rolled the dice w/ Chad for one more year.

But in reality it wouldn't have mattered as history shows Chad Pennington simply wasn't good enough, so this whole hypothetical doesn't really matter, it's a parlor game of little interest.  Sanchez, even Geno, you can have these conversations because their Jets windows were very short and the teams they played on from 2011-2014 were of questionable ability, you can play the 'what if' game.

Pennington had a great team all the years he was here.  He couldn't have had it any better.  '08 would have been another useless postseason.

SAR I

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18 minutes ago, SAR I said:

But in reality it wouldn't have mattered as history shows Chad Pennington simply wasn't good enough, so this whole hypothetical doesn't really matter, it's a parlor game of little interest.  Sanchez, even Geno, you can have these conversations because their Jets windows were very short and the teams they played on from 2011-2014 were of questionable ability, you can play the 'what if' game.

Pennington had a great team all the years he was here.  He couldn't have had it any better.  '08 would have been another useless postseason.

SAR I

Maybe but we'll never know. we do know favre wasn't even good enough to get us to the playoffs against a weak sched and no Brady.

Chad didn't have great teams when he was here.  he had good talent to work with but nothing great and he was up against the Brady dynasty in his prime.

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21 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

What?  Completions?  It was another time.  People got killed back then.  Watch Chrebet's games and see your boys laying him out.  

players still get killed today but the point is he set him up for many of those hits.  once in a while you will see a bad throw/decision that gets a WR killed, this was happening all the time.

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6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Maybe but we'll never know. we do know favre wasn't even good enough to get us to the playoffs against a weak sched and no Brady.

Chad didn't have great teams when he was here.  he had good talent to work with but nothing great and he was up against the Brady dynasty in his prime.

I believe that had Brett Favre remained healthy we'd have gone to the Super Bowl.  We'd already crushed the NFC Champion Cardinals, we'd demolished the #1 seed Titans, and we slayed the AFC East Champion Dolphins most while Favre was healthy and just beginning to hit his stride in New York.

When he got injured, we were sitting at 8-3 and were on a 7-1 run.  We'd have been the #2 seed and hosted the AFC Championship Game.  It was all there for us.  And it makes Rex Ryan's failures in '09 and '10 that much more painful, we were actually in contention for the Super Bowl for three straight years though few remember the '08 campaign.

SAR I

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16 minutes ago, SAR I said:

I believe that had Brett Favre remained healthy we'd have gone to the Super Bowl.  We'd already crushed the NFC Champion Cardinals, we'd demolished the #1 seed Titans, and we slayed the AFC East Champion Dolphins most while Favre was healthy and just beginning to hit his stride in New York.

When he got injured, we were sitting at 8-3 and were on a 7-1 run.  We'd have been the #2 seed and hosted the AFC Championship Game.  It was all there for us.  And it makes Rex Ryan's failures in '09 and '10 that much more painful, we were actually in contention for the Super Bowl for three straight years though few remember the '08 campaign.

SAR I

I don't believe our season hinged on favre's health.  he wasn't good when supposedly healthy and he was the ironman that can play through anything so I don't think anything changes.

we did beat up tennessee but our D dominated them and ten turned out to be a paper tiger.  that was our biggest win and against the Cassell Pats where we folded up in the 2nd half but he made a big play in OT, I think it was a 3rd down on 1st poss of OT and he hit Keller.  that was Favre at his best for us.  if we got that Favre or '09 Favre we win the SB in 2008 but we didn't get much of that version.

 

2008 was ripe to make a run, the AFC was bad and the NFL overall, I think Ari was 9-7 and obviously we crushed them(so did every other WC team in reg season).

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3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

if that is the case that is the problem, that is woody's biggest flaw.  he listens to the fans too much and our fans as a whole are pretty clueless.

he tried, he didn't want to give up what they were asking.  Imagine if he gave up the farm and it's 9 years later and he has 1 PO win, what do you think people would say?  I remember the Giants fans being done w/ Eli during the 2007 season b/c of what they paid and how eli was playing to that point.  let us not forget that Eli and Coughlin were on the hot seat in 2007, if they don't get on that run who knows? and that is a patient organization.

he was booed all the time, he was hated by Jet fans his final few years from 1990-1992.  the only time I remember a big ovation was when he came in for Browning Nagle in the Buffalo Monday Night game in 1992 but that was more about Nagle and less about Ken.

Kenny was not boo'd all the time, nor was he hated by Jets fans.  He's was the best QB we developed since Namath.  You don't like him because he was much better than Sanchez.  

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1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Kenny was not boo'd all the time, nor was he hated by Jets fans.  He's was the best QB we developed since Namath.  You don't like him because he was much better than Sanchez.  

he was one of my favorite players growing up, he was hated by Jet fans by the 90s and no one was sad to see him leave(besides maybe me b/c I didn't understand back then, I was also wowed by meaningless highlights of him throwing down field but as I got older I learned better)

 

he isn't close to sanchez. as a reg season QB putting up meaningless #s he was better.  Ken inherited a young, talented team just off an AFC Championship Game and he never won a single playoff game BUT when he was benched his backup won one then we were leading the next week when Ryan got hurt and Ken came in and blew it for us.  Mark inherited a team that couldn't make the playoffs a year earlier w/ no Brady around and a creampuff sched w/ a HOF QB under C.

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7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Kenny was not boo'd all the time, nor was he hated by Jets fans.  He's was the best QB we developed since Namath.  You don't like him because he was much better than Sanchez.  

Quite frankly you are making Kenny better than he really was. Did he throw a beautiful pass? Yes he did.  However, he also was a statue in the pocket who never scored a rushing TD because he had no football instincts.  On numerous times, once it almost cost us the playoffs in a December 1991 game against the Pats, on 4th down when no one was open in the endzone he could have walked in instead he chose to the throw the ball away.  He never won a post season game despite having incredible talent on offense (Toon, Walker, Shuler, Hector, McNeil, etc..).  The one playoff game we won during his tenure was won by Pat Ryan when Walton benched Kenny for poor play at the end of the 1986 season. Ryan defeated the Chiefs and we would have beaten the Browns the following week had he not gotten injured and replaced by O'Brien.

Lets not re-invent history, just because O'Brien had a great arm, he was far from a great QB.

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14 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he was one of my favorite players growing up, he was hated by Jet fans by the 90s and no one was sad to see him leave(besides maybe me b/c I didn't understand back then, I was also wowed by meaningless highlights of him throwing down field but as I got older I learned better)

 

he isn't close to sanchez. as a reg season QB putting up meaningless #s he was better.  Ken inherited a young, talented team just off an AFC Championship Game and he never won a single playoff game BUT when he was benched his backup won one then we were leading the next week when Ryan got hurt and Ken came in and blew it for us.  Mark inherited a team that couldn't make the playoffs a year earlier w/ no Brady around and a creampuff sched w/ a HOF QB under C.

Anyone who watched Sanchez and O'Brien play the position knows who was better.  I could care less that Sanchez went for a ride and was carried by far superior teams to 4 playoff wins.  Please stop playing the other guy had better teams story.  

BTW, you keep saying KO blew the Browns game.  There were about 20 reasons why they lost the game.  The only one remotely tied to OBrien is when Walton had him run a QB with under 2 min left in the game, forgetting that a sack in that spot stops the clock.  

Just as there isn't any proof, on any level that Kenny wouldn't have won the playoff game against KC.  

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6 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

Quite frankly you are making Kenny better than he really was. Did he throw a beautiful pass? Yes he did.  However, he also was a statue in the pocket who never scored a rushing TD because he had no football instincts.  On numerous times, once it almost cost us the playoffs in a December 1991 game against the Pats, on 4th down when no one was open in the endzone he could have walked in instead he chose to the throw the ball away.  He never won a post season game despite having incredible talent on offense (Toon, Walker, Shuler, Hector, McNeil, etc..).  The one playoff game we won during his tenure was won by Pat Ryan when Walton benched Kenny for poor play at the end of the 1986 season. Ryan defeated the Chiefs and we would have beaten the Browns the following week had he not gotten injured and replaced by O'Brien.

Lets not re-invent history, just because O'Brien had a great arm, he was far from a great QB.

Quite frankly saying he's the best since Namath or better than Sanchez isn't really saying much.  Unfortunately 

Again, there were about 20 different reasons the Jets lost to the Browns, OB wasnt one of them.  Didn't he put them in a position win only to see Leahy miss a could of chip shot FGs?

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1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Anyone who watched Sanchez and O'Brien play the position knows who was better.  I could care less that Sanchez went for a ride and was carried by far superior teams to 4 playoff wins.  Please stop playing the other guy had better teams story.  

BTW, you keep saying KO blew the Browns game.  There were about 20 reasons why they lost the game.  The only one remotely tied to OBrien is when Walton had him run a QB with under 2 min left in the game, forgetting that a sack in that spot stops the clock.  

Just as there isn't any proof, on any level that Kenny wouldn't have won the playoff game against KC.  

If you remember that season, Kenny got off to a great start but was horrible towards the end of the season. Walton actually benched him for the playoffs. 

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1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Anyone who watched Sanchez and O'Brien play the position knows who was better.  I could care less that Sanchez went for a ride and was carried by far superior teams to 4 playoff wins.  Please stop playing the other guy had better teams story.  

BTW, you keep saying KO blew the Browns game.  There were about 20 reasons why they lost the game.  The only one remotely tied to OBrien is when Walton had him run a QB with under 2 min left in the game, forgetting that a sack in that spot stops the clock.  

Just as there isn't any proof, on any level that Kenny wouldn't have won the playoff game against KC.  

O'Brien was surrounded by more talent compared to his era and the AFC stunk back then yet doesn't have a single playoff win.

 

yes there were more reasons than ken why we lost BUT he did nothing all afternoon and gave us no chance to win. 

 

we have no proof we don't beat KC but:

 

last 5 games of reg season kenny led O to average of 9.4 PPG, vs. KC our O scored 28.  I am sure it was pure coincidence that we played much better the day Ryan started. Kenny was great!

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Just now, Jet Nut said:

Quite frankly saying he's the best since Namath or better than Sanchez isn't really saying much.  Unfortunately 

Again, there were about 20 different reasons the Jets lost to the Browns, OB wasnt one of them.  Didn't he put them in a position win only to see Leahy miss a could of chip shot FGs?

No I think you are getting games confused. Ryan was playing a good game but got injured, Kenny came in did nothing. The only score with OBrien in the game came on s long TD run by McNeil. What killed us was Gastineau's roughing on Kosar.

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4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Quite frankly saying he's the best since Namath or better than Sanchez isn't really saying much.  Unfortunately 

Again, there were about 20 different reasons the Jets lost to the Browns, OB wasnt one of them.  Didn't he put them in a position win only to see Leahy miss a could of chip shot FGs?

he's not though, I am not sure he is top 5 in Jets history.

 

1. Namath

2. Vinny

3. Chad

4. Sanchez

 

I guess he is 5th? or would it be Richard Todd?

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2 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

No I think you are getting games confused. Ryan was playing a good game but got injured, Kenny came in did nothing. The only score with OBrien in the game came on s long TD run by McNeil. What killed us was Gastineau's roughing on Kosar.

it was a 1st down handoff where McNeil ran for the TD to give us the 20-10 lead.  Kenny did nothing, he killed us.  was it all on him? of course not, the D, coaching, other players all contributed but Kenny didn't give us a chance.

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