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Poll: Your best guess - If Bill Belichick stayed on with the Jets after Parcells, would the Jets have had a Patriot-like Dynasty?


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Poll: Your best guess - If Bill Belichick stayed on with the Jets after Parcells, would the Jets have had a Patriot-like Dynasty?  

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  1. 1. Poll: Your best guess - If Bill Belichick stayed on with the Jets after Parcells, would the Jets have had a Patriot-like Dynasty?

    • Yes the Jets probably would've had a Patriot-like dynasty
      12
    • Maybe not a dyansty but the Jets would've won at least 1 SB
      32
    • Nope, SOJ!
      39


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5 minutes ago, detectivekimble said:

Wrong.  Belicheat was 5-13 in New England before Bledsoe went down.  What do you think happened, Belicheat learned suddenly learned how to coach after Bledsoe went down?  Give me a ******* break.  Belicheat also gave Bledsoe a $100 million extension before the 2001 season.  The guy is a lucky mother ****er.

Great QBs bring teams to Super Bowls.  Peyton Manning -- who wasn't as good as Brady -- went to a Super Bowl with four different coaches.  Jim Caldwell was 14-2 with Peyton Manning and 2-14 without him.  People would be calling him a great coach if he'd coached Peyton for 10 years.

Bill Belichick is the head coach and the GM.  He's doing two jobs.  He's the only coach in the NFL with such a burdensome workload.

If you want to tell me that for a single 2001 season Tom Brady took Bill Belichick to new heights, that's fine, we've seen Peyton Manning and Kurt Warner do that once too.  But don't tell me that 16 seasons of excellence is all because of Tom Brady.  The Patriots sustained success is unprecedented, and it's not like Belichick drafts particularly well.  He is brilliant at taking a bunch of nobodies and making them into great players.  He cuts his biggest stars when they get too fat and lazy, picks up other people's trash because they are so desperate to stay in the league.  His players have more fight in them than any group in the league.  His defense has never had the names and the pedigree of some of the all time greats but they play just as well.  That's Bill Belichick, not Tom Brady.

Swap Edwards for Belichick in 2001, Tom Brady is a nobody on a road to ruin with a bad head coach, Testaverde is Super Bowl MVP and cut the next year, Pennington plays well enough to get us a few more Lombardi's.  After that, who knows.  But back then, this is how it would have played out.

SAR I

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We would have still had that 2000 Draft.  Probably would still have picked Pennington as Parcells was the defacto GM.  

Would Ernie Adams be working in Weeb Ewbank Hall?

Do we get past Oakland in 2002?  Are we playing that 2004 Pitt PO game at home?

I still hold onto the belief that Herm was handed a pretty good football team and underachieved big time.   I think Beli would have done better.  

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10 minutes ago, jmat321 said:

We would have still had that 2000 Draft.  Probably would still have picked Pennington as Parcells was the defacto GM.  

Would Ernie Adams be working in Weeb Ewbank Hall?

Do we get past Oakland in 2002?  Are we playing that 2004 Pitt PO game at home?

I still hold onto the belief that Herm was handed a pretty good football team and underachieved big time.   I think Beli would have done better.  

Without Bill Belichick in New England, the Bills and Dolphins still suck, the division would have been ours to conquer for the past 15 years. 

Consider that with crappy coaching and no legitimate franchise quarterback, we still made the playoffs 6 of 15 years, had a non-losing record 8 of 15 years, built a 4-2 playoff record, and went to two AFC Championship Games.  Imagine what it would have been like with a Hall Of Fame Head Coach and General Manager.  Without Brady we don't go to 7 Super Bowls.  But do we get there 3 times?  Do we win it once?

Yes.  Guaranteed.

Our happiness as a fanbase wasn't tied to a quest for a franchise quarterback.  It was tied to a head coach that we had and couldn't hold onto.

SAR I

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2 hours ago, detectivekimble said:

Wrong.  Belicheat was 5-13 in New England before Bledsoe went down.  What do you think happened, Belicheat learned suddenly learned how to coach after Bledsoe went down?  Give me a ******* break.  Belicheat also gave Bledsoe a $100 million extension before the 2001 season.  The guy is a lucky mother ****er.

Great QBs bring teams to Super Bowls.  Peyton Manning -- who wasn't as good as Brady -- went to a Super Bowl with four different coaches.  Jim Caldwell was 14-2 with Peyton Manning and 2-14 without him.  People would be calling him a great coach if he'd coached Peyton for 10 years.

Have to agree.  The so called "Culture" in NE developed only AFTER it won a superbowl as underdogs vs the powerful Rams.  Belichick and the Pats SUCKED prior to starting Brady.  Belichick SUCKED as HC in Cleveland.  

THe difference was a flukey 6th round pick that turned out to be one for the ages.  Belichick is a lucky mofo.  Granted, he cultivated what happened after they started winning, but it never would have happened without Tom Brady.

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It depends if BB and the Jets would have had any competition from the patriots (assuming the Bills and Fins stayed the same), the AFC East has been handed to the pats* for 15 years, so the dynasty is created in part by the failure of the rest of the division

I think the Jets win at least one SB if BB stayed after the tuna rebuild but since BB was hired before tuna the real question is what happens if BB was the architect - drafts Pace or Manning? that could have been a dynasty too

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Yes and no. Parcells was exposed as being only as good as his assistants. After all even the "great" Parcells could not beat the Jet Curse. Case in point Testaverde back to pass...he's down. No one touches the guy and he tears his achilles. Out for the season for a team with Super Bowl aspirations. Could Belichek have beaten the curse? We will never know.

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Timing is everything. BB wasn't so great without Brady, one Playoff win I think. That said, he made the best of his situation when we took out Bledsoe. He made lemons in to lemonade, it happens. Joe Torre wasn't very good prior to joining the Yankees. 

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49 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

We do not go in at halftime down 24-3 in Pittsburgh in 2010 if he is the HC of the NYJ...

I think we'd have had a good shot against the Packers that year, too.  2010 Revis vs. Jordy Nelson I'd take my chances...

 

Yeah, Belicheat's Pats only got their asses handed to them at home (where they're almost impossible to beat) by a team starting Mark ******* Sanchez at QB.

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7 hours ago, SAR I said:

Bill Belichick is the head coach and the GM.  He's doing two jobs.  He's the only coach in the NFL with such a burdensome workload.

If you want to tell me that for a single 2001 season Tom Brady took Bill Belichick to new heights, that's fine, we've seen Peyton Manning and Kurt Warner do that once too.  But don't tell me that 16 seasons of excellence is all because of Tom Brady.  The Patriots sustained success is unprecedented, and it's not like Belichick drafts particularly well.  He is brilliant at taking a bunch of nobodies and making them into great players.  He cuts his biggest stars when they get too fat and lazy, picks up other people's trash because they are so desperate to stay in the league.  His players have more fight in them than any group in the league.  His defense has never had the names and the pedigree of some of the all time greats but they play just as well.  That's Bill Belichick, not Tom Brady.

Swap Edwards for Belichick in 2001, Tom Brady is a nobody on a road to ruin with a bad head coach, Testaverde is Super Bowl MVP and cut the next year, Pennington plays well enough to get us a few more Lombardi's.  After that, who knows.  But back then, this is how it would have played out.

SAR I

There's so much bullsh*t in this thread, I don't know where to start.  New England's pass defense was terrible for so many years.  They couldn't stop a nose bleed.  That's why they went out there and signed Revis and Browner.

The idea that a great QB can't lead your team to double digit wins each year is also bull ******* sh*t.  Peyton Manning since 2003: 

12-4

12-4

14-2

12-4

13-3

12-4

14-2

10-6

13-3

13-3

12-4

12-4

 

That's with multiple coaches, different systems, and a ton of different players around him.  And the last four of those seasons were in Denver.  Denver was stuck in mediocrity before Peyton got there.  And Brady is BETTER than Peyton.  

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Anyone who doesn't vote "Nope, SOJ" is a fool who wasn't following things back then.  Would've been too many cooks in the kitchen.

Belichick wouldn't have gotten the carte blanche he needed to do things his way, including bringing in Ernie Adams and his whole approach of applying the concepts of opportunity cost and arbitrage to football.  Belichick and Brady are great, but the amazing consistency of their success has to do with that stuff (and cheating, of course)

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19 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

They don't turn into a "Patriots like dynasty" but I'd bet they'd be a very successful franchise with at least one Super Bowl win. You need to stumble into an all time great QB to get to where the Pats have.

True. But since Brady wasn't taken until the sixth round, it's entirely possible Belichick still would have drafted him if he were the Jet head coach at the time. After all, every team in the league passed over him several times.

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12 hours ago, detectivekimble said:

Yeah, Belicheat's Pats only got their asses handed to them at home (where they're almost impossible to beat) by a team starting Mark ******* Sanchez at QB.

Sometimes a team just plays better.  The Pittsburgh game was decided largely because Rex didn't get his team ready to play that day.

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1 hour ago, Jet Fan RI said:

True. But since Brady wasn't taken until the sixth round, it's entirely possible Belichick still would have drafted him if he were the Jet head coach at the time. After all, every team in the league passed over him several times.

Pioli drafted Brady

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On February 3, 2017 at 4:20 AM, GKnight83 said:

I think Big Bill was the issue and Little Bill knew it.  With Parcell's between BB and WJ I see no dynasty possibilities.

This is the part nobody gets. BB pushed the ejector seat button when Tuna announced he'd stick around as GM to micromanage everything and ruin it for BB. 

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On February 3, 2017 at 9:01 AM, thadude said:

Belichick without Brady has Al Groh's career

 

hes a great defensive play caller but having a GOAT Qb made his career

What does Brady have without Belichick? Who was Brady before he met BB?

Oh yeah ... you somehow forgot ... a no-name dork that every team passed on 6 times including NE.

Even Spergon Wynn was drafted before your GOAT QB.

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As good as BB has been, and as good as the combination of BB and Brady have been, the Jets could have had both and found a way to blow it. We love to overanalyze and be overly critical of players and coaches and we've had a weak minded owner for way too long. I don't think Mike Tomlin is the best coach in the NFL, but if you can get a good QB and keep some stability in this league, you can have success. I hope Bowles attempts to hire teachers into position coaches can help us develop some of our younger talent and I hope Woody or his brother allow Bowles and Mac at least 5 years together before getting ready to jump ship. We all love instant results but it takes time for general managers to acquire players that fit a coach's style and it takes times for players to master playbooks and to take to coaching. In reality it takes AT LEAST 4 years before a coach and GM can put together a roster that fits a coach's style, implement a playbook and playing style, and have a chance to begin developing players. Yes, there are instances of this happening faster, but it usually doesn't without certain things, like a solid starting QB.

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18 hours ago, jetrider said:

What does Brady have without Belichick? Who was Brady before he met BB?

Oh yeah ... you somehow forgot ... a no-name dork that every team passed on 6 times including NE.

Even Spergon Wynn was drafted before your GOAT QB.

Watch Brady's highlights at Michigan.  Kid was good long before Belichick coached him

 

Brady fell in the draft because:

1. He was buried in Michigan's depth chart because Lloyd Carr recruited way too many blue chip QB prospects at the same time like Brian Griese, Drew Henson, Scott Dreisbach etc

 

2. Brady had a bad combine and people think vertical jumps and 40 yd dash actually impact qb play

 

3. Dumb scout analysis.  It happens every year stiffs like Goff and Lynch get overrated while good players like Prescott get overlooked

 

Name me the quarterbacks Belichick has developed that were any good outside Brady (who would have been great anyway) and maybe Jimmy G who the jury is still out on.  Belichick has been a head coach for 20 years now go ahead I want to know

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On February 3, 2017 at 2:10 PM, SAR I said:

Bill Belichick is the head coach and the GM.  He's doing two jobs.  He's the only coach in the NFL with such a burdensome workload.

If you want to tell me that for a single 2001 season Tom Brady took Bill Belichick to new heights, that's fine, we've seen Peyton Manning and Kurt Warner do that once too.  But don't tell me that 16 seasons of excellence is all because of Tom Brady.  The Patriots sustained success is unprecedented, and it's not like Belichick drafts particularly well.  He is brilliant at taking a bunch of nobodies and making them into great players.  He cuts his biggest stars when they get too fat and lazy, picks up other people's trash because they are so desperate to stay in the league.  His players have more fight in them than any group in the league.  His defense has never had the names and the pedigree of some of the all time greats but they play just as well.  That's Bill Belichick, not Tom Brady.

Swap Edwards for Belichick in 2001, Tom Brady is a nobody on a road to ruin with a bad head coach, Testaverde is Super Bowl MVP and cut the next year, Pennington plays well enough to get us a few more Lombardi's.  After that, who knows.  But back then, this is how it would have played out.

SAR I

You're right, the defense is Bill Belichick, not Tom Brady.  And this game is showing you what that defense really is.  A bunch of front running bums who look better than they are because their offense scores 30 points per game.  See how they look playing from behind.  This is going to get UGLY.

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10 hours ago, thadude said:

Watch Brady's highlights at Michigan.  Kid was good long before Belichick coached him

 

Brady fell in the draft because:

1. He was buried in Michigan's depth chart because Lloyd Carr recruited way too many blue chip QB prospects at the same time like Brian Griese, Drew Henson, Scott Dreisbach etc

 

2. Brady had a bad combine and people think vertical jumps and 40 yd dash actually impact qb play

 

3. Dumb scout analysis.  It happens every year stiffs like Goff and Lynch get overrated while good players like Prescott get overlooked

 

Name me the quarterbacks Belichick has developed that were any good outside Brady (who would have been great anyway) and maybe Jimmy G who the jury is still out on.  Belichick has been a head coach for 20 years now go ahead I want to know

BB won 11 games with Cassell in '08. Since leaving BB, Cassell has done nothing with 5 other teams.

You and nyjunc make it sound like Brady was a college superstar that fell in BB's lap. 

If it weren't for BB, Brady would've been selling ties at Nordstrom a long time ago and most fans wouldn't even know his name.

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2 hours ago, jetrider said:

BB won 11 games with Cassell in '08. Since leaving BB, Cassell has done nothing with 5 other teams.

You and nyjunc make it sound like Brady was a college superstar that fell in BB's lap. 

If it weren't for BB, Brady would've been selling ties at Nordstrom a long time ago and most fans wouldn't even know his name.

Not true.  Led the Chiefs to an AFC West championship and made the Pro Bowl.  He's shot now, but he was pretty good.

And this game showed that it's Brady, not Belichick.  Dude locked in at the end of the game and decided that his team wasn't going to lose.

 

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6 minutes ago, detectivekimble said:

Not true.  Led the Chiefs to an AFC West championship and made the Pro Bowl.  He's shot now, but he was pretty good.

And this game showed that it's Brady, not Belichick.  Dude locked in at the end of the game and decided that his team wasn't going to lose.

 

Big deal. He devolved into a career backup. And you're wrong about BB. He made adjustments and kept them focused.

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Just now, jetrider said:

Big deal. He devolved into a career backup. And you're wrong about BB. He made adjustments and kept them focused.

He did sh*t.  The Falcons scored 28 points, which is usually good enough to win in a Super Bowl.  He's lucky that his GOAT QB put 34 on the board.  It's not BB.  It's Brady.  Brady has that rare competitiveness that Michael Jordan had.  Even Brett Favre says so:

He’s that good. I’d like to tell you there’s some secret formula. But I think he’s just that good. He’s competitive, and that’s a key asset for anybody who’s been as successful as he has, in sports or the business world or anything else. Michael Jordan had it.

To me he’s in a class by himself with his competitiveness, because it drives him to excel even more than the week before, the previous year. So you study harder, you demand more of yourself. It gets to a point where you can’t exceed the level you expect of yourself.

What people don’t realize is that a player like Tom Brady expects more from Tom Brady than the fans do. If you’re at that point — unless the physical part declines — you’re going to play at the highest level.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/02/brett-favre-tom-brady-joe-montana-best-quarterback-ever-atlanta-falcons-new-england-patriots-super-bowl

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8 minutes ago, detectivekimble said:

He did sh*t.  The Falcons scored 28 points, which is usually good enough to win in a Super Bowl.  He's lucky that his GOAT QB put 34 on the board.  It's not BB.  It's Brady.  Brady has that rare competitiveness that Michael Jordan had.  Even Brett Favre says so:

They're judging him after the fact and so are you. You keep missing the point. It took a coach like BB and the environment he created to bring it out of the gawky no-name dork that no team cared to draft for six rounds and turn him into a HOF household name. It most likely wouldn't have happened anywhere else with a different team and HC.

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2 minutes ago, jetrider said:

They're judging him after the fact and so are you. You keep missing the point. It took a coach like BB and the environment he created to bring it out of the gawky no-name dork that no team cared to draft for six rounds and turn him into a HOF household name. It most likely wouldn't have happened anywhere else with a different team and HC.

Bullsh*t.  5-11 and then 0-2 and then Brady comes in and they start winning.  What happened, Belicheat learned how to coach in week 3 of the 2001 season?  Give me a break.  And what about Drew Bledsoe, who was a talented QB and a former #1 pick who had been to a SB?  Bledsoe got WORSE under Belicheat.  Some "environment" he created.  On top of that, Belicheat gave Bledsoe a $100+ million contract extension before the 2001 season.  He got lucky with Brady, plain and simple.  

How many QBs do you think can put up 31 unanswered points in a Super Bowl?  That's not good coaching.  That's having the GOAT QB.

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1 hour ago, detectivekimble said:

Bullsh*t.  5-11 and then 0-2 and then Brady comes in and they start winning.  What happened, Belicheat learned how to coach in week 3 of the 2001 season?  Give me a break.  And what about Drew Bledsoe, who was a talented QB and a former #1 pick who had been to a SB?  Bledsoe got WORSE under Belicheat.  Some "environment" he created.  On top of that, Belicheat gave Bledsoe a $100+ million contract extension before the 2001 season.  He got lucky with Brady, plain and simple.  

How many QBs do you think can put up 31 unanswered points in a Super Bowl?  That's not good coaching.  That's having the GOAT QB.

There you go missing the point again. GOAT QB is the end result, the final product of great coaching and the right environment. 

No doubt Brady had hidden talent but it took the right coach to bring it out of him and his name is Bill Belichick. Not sure what your difficulty is. 

It doesn't mean BB could make J.P Losman or A.J Feeley a star. Maybe he could. Bledsoe declined everywhere else he played.

All it means is BB made it work with Tom Brady, an off-the-radar no-name that barely made the NFL and every team passed on 6 times including NE.

 

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30 minutes ago, jetrider said:

There you go missing the point again. GOAT QB is the end result, the final product of great coaching and the right environment. 

No doubt Brady had hidden talent but it took the right coach to bring it out of him and his name is Bill Belichick. Not sure what your difficulty is. 

It doesn't mean BB could make J.P Losman or A.J Feeley a star. Maybe he could. Bledsoe declined everywhere else he played.

All it means is BB made it work with Tom Brady, an off-the-radar no-name that barely made the NFL and every team passed on 6 times including NE.

 

And I'm saying there are many coaches who could have made it work with Tom Brady.  We see 6th rounders, 7th rounders, and UDFAs do well all over the league.  It just happens that, in this case, the 6th rounder we're talking about happened to be a QB.  The guy got lucky.  Really lucky.

Belicheat didn't even know what he had going into the 2001 season with Brady.  There's a reason he gave Bledsoe a huge extension.

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