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11 minutes ago, thadude said:

How is a good, not great ILB worth $10+ mil but Glennon, a good qb, not worth $14 mil

Why the **** are you asking me?  I wouldn't give either of them more than $7M and my personal opinion is that Glennon is not a starter. 

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12 hours ago, thadude said:

How is a good, not great ILB worth $10+ mil but Glennon, a good qb, not worth $14 mil

Nobody knows if Glennon is a "good" QB or not based on his 2+ year old limited body of work.  Glennon MIGHT be good.  He might not.  Thus $14.5 million with hefty guarantees is a big risk.  Hightower is a known commodity.  His strengths and weaknesses are known and a team willing to invest  $10-$12 million knows exactly what it's getting. Less risk.  

Most arguments about Glennon are weak, because it all rest on the assumption that Glennon is going to be a good starter.  He was fair to mediocre when given the chance, but that was quite a while ago.  He is an unknown..   

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7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Absurd?  Check where most NFL linemen played in HS and college.  Brandon Scherff LT. Erick Flowers LT.  Look at the Jets 2013 draft Brian Winters and Oday Aboushi were both college LTs.  Brandon Shell- LT, James Carpenter LT.  Look at the Cowboys stud line:  Doug Free LT,  La'el Collins LT, Zack Martin LT, Ronald Leary LT, LT Tyron Smith actually played RT, but that was because he couldn't beat out Matt Kalil.  Frederick was actually a C in college.  I will admit that snapping the ball is a special skill, but the main reason that guys are interior linemen and not LTs is because they are too slow to stop edge rushers and/or their arms are too short. You will also see that some guys play inside

Perhaps THE most important, hardly THE ONLY important. And it is absurd. a great OL has studs at each position because it is a unit. a great LT is useless if a defense can blitz the A gap successfully. And, again, the interior lineman play against a totally different type of player, which your argument ignores. You wouldn't want 5 LTs playing on your OL. You want a mixture of players who play best inside and players who play best on the outside based on their abilities.

That players play a position in high school, where the competition is less and the player development at its infancy seems somewhat irrelevant to their careers in college and the pros. In HS, one player may play at a position because there is ZERO competition, that is, he may be the best, by far, than any of his teammates. So, I'm not sold that this argument adds any persuasive information.

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19 minutes ago, gEYno said:

It's almost as if you don't remember trying this 2 years ago.

Completely different approach the Jets took 2 years ago. Revis, Cromartie, Marshall, Fitz were all over 30 and even though Marshall and Revis were still good in their 1st season their best days were behind them. Just like McLendon and Forte last year.

Hightower is a young player that can grow with the team. He could actually play out his contract.

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9 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Perhaps THE most important, hardly THE ONLY important. And it is absurd. a great OL has studs at each position because it is a unit. a great LT is useless if a defense can blitz the A gap successfully. And, again, the interior lineman play against a totally different type of player, which your argument ignores. You wouldn't want 5 LTs playing on your OL. You want a mixture of players who play best inside and players who play best on the outside based on their abilities.

That players play a position in high school, where the competition is less and the player development at its infancy seems somewhat irrelevant to their careers in college and the pros. In HS, one player may play at a position because there is ZERO competition, that is, he may be the best, by far, than any of his teammates. So, I'm not sold that this argument adds any persuasive information.

I just showed you that the Cowboys, the best offensive line in football, have 4 LTs (actually 5) and a C.  The Jets have 4 LTs and a C.  That is exactly what you want.  The only reason to want otherwise?  VALUE!  If it didn't cost so much, your line would be full of LTs

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3 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Completely different approach the Jets took 2 years ago. Revis, Cromartie, Marshall, Fitz were all over 30 and even though Marshall and Revis were still good in their 1st season their best days were behind them. Just like McLendon and Forte last year.

Hightower is a young player that can grow with the team. He could actually play out his contract.

^This.  The analogy to 2 years ago is feeble. 

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Just now, #27TheDominator said:

I just showed you that the Cowboys, the best offensive line in football, have 4 LTs and a C.  The Jets have 4 LTs and a C.  That is exactly what you want.  The only reason to want otherwise?  VALUE!  If it didn't cost so much, your line would be full of LTs

And I just explained that an LT in highschool is pretty much meaningless because, often, there is zero competition.

And, again, you've ignored the fact that a 280 pound LT would be less useful at OG because OGs play against slower, more powerful players.

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2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

And I just explained that an LT in highschool is pretty much meaningless because, often, there is zero competition.

And, again, you've ignored the fact that a 280 pound LT would be less useful at OG because OGs play against slower, more powerful players.

Those guys didn't play LT in high school.  They all played LT in college.  At places like Alabama, Virginia, and Notre Dame, In high school they probably played QB because that is the most important position.  Doesn't it tell you something that the LT on the best offensive line in football played RT in college because they had a better player? In the NFL they both play LT because that is where your top offensive lineman should be. 

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5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Those guys didn't play LT in high school.  They all played LT in college.  In high school they probably played QB because that is the most important position.  

Ok, then replace High School with college in my argument. Its the same premise.

The qb argument is a very humorous notion that seems to incorporate the same logic as your main argument.

I will agree to disagree because I think we are definitely on opposite sides of this issue with no significant common ground.

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21 minutes ago, gEYno said:

It's almost as if you don't remember trying this 2 years ago.

2 years ago, the Jets had to spend money, and they did . 2 men who had never held the positions they were given had to show that they were worthy of the positions . The GM won executive of the year with the moves he made and the HC took over a team that stunk and led it to 10 wins with a back-up QB  . I had a problem with the signing of Revis but I understood . I had a problem with Fitzpatrick being the starting QB, but what was the team to do when fans were celebrating  stupidity by the QB who should have been the starter and a kid who has anger issues .

Last yr, I would never had resigned Fitzpatrick but I understand why he was resigned after the year he had . Last year was the year to tear the team down, but how could you do that when the team had just won 10 games and everyone was drunk with tainted wine . Fitzpatrick almost gave this team the opportunity it needed, but he came back and after that, the season couldn't have played out any better . All the old guys got hurt or sucked and many of the kids got to play.

The rebuild started last season, and it's continuing, but what people need to understand is while you rebuild, you can't do it by adding garbage, but solid blocks .  The Outside Line backers are a bunch of kids led by an Inside Linebacker  who's all but done as a player but can still be a the mental leader . Replacing that with a mental leader who can also be a physical leader is a solid building block .

This would be a great move by the Jets .

The funny thing is, if he goes home to NE, it will look like he used the Jets, but who cares . We save the cap space we were going to give him and NE uses that cap space on him. If he comes here, we gain a solid building block . Where would we lose in all this .

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29 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Completely different approach the Jets took 2 years ago. Revis, Cromartie, Marshall, Fitz were all over 30 and even though Marshall and Revis were still good in their 1st season their best days were behind them. Just like McLendon and Forte last year.

Hightower is a young player that can grow with the team. He could actually play out his contract.

Yet, all of those players add significantly more value than an inside linebacker.

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9 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

2 years ago, the Jets had to spend money, and they did . 2 men who had never held the positions they were given had to show that they were worthy of the positions . The GM won executive of the year with the moves he made and the HC took over a team that stunk and led it to 10 wins with a back-up QB  . I had a problem with the signing of Revis but I understood . I had a problem with Fitzpatrick being the starting QB, but what was the team to do when fans were celebrating  stupidity by the QB who should have been the starter and a kid who has anger issues .

Last yr, I would never had resigned Fitzpatrick but I understand why he was resigned after the year he had . Last year was the year to tear the team down, but how could you do that when the team had just won 10 games and everyone was drunk with tainted wine . Fitzpatrick almost gave this team the opportunity it needed, but he came back and after that, the season couldn't have played out any better . All the old guys got hurt or sucked and many of the kids got to play.

The rebuild started last season, and it's continuing, but what people need to understand is while you rebuild, you can't do it by adding garbage, but solid blocks .  The Outside Line backers are a bunch of kids led by an Inside Linebacker  who's all but done as a player but can still be a the mental leader . Replacing that with a mental leader who can also be a physical leader is a solid building block .

This would be a great move by the Jets .

The funny thing is, if he goes home to NE, it will look like he used the Jets, but who cares . We save the cap space we were going to give him and NE uses that cap space on him. If he comes here, we gain a solid building block . Where would we lose in all this .

We'd lose by overpaying a less valuable position.  As I said in one of the threads specifically about this, imagining this gave us the best ILB duo in the league, there's not that much value in having the best ILB duo in the league when compared to all other options.  And, the reality is, we wouldn't have the best ILB duo in the league, but we'd have paid the 2nd highest salary for one player and invested a 1st rounder in the other.  It's just bad value and allocation of resources.

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15 minutes ago, C Mart said:

Interesting, thanks for the link.  Trying to find out from some Niners fans more about his performance and reasons for letting him go.

9 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Also, for anyone who says "he's only 27," while I know we hate math, and especially charts, you may find these interesting:

aging-curve-for-nfl-defensive-players-pf

Screen-Shot-2015-08-10-at-2.53.17-PM.png

Full Article for explanation of methodology: http://socalledfantasyexperts.com/aging-curve-nfl-defensive-players-dl-lb-db

I had to look up the offensive age curve after seeing this.  Its much more graceful decline compared to some of these steep drop offs on the defensive side.

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Just now, JETSfaninNE said:

I had to look up the offensive age curve after seeing this.  Its much more graceful decline compared to some of these steep drop offs on the defensive side.

A rough, and general conclusion from this is, don't give 2nd contracts to CBs or LBs.

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3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

A rough, and general conclusion from this is, don't give 2nd contracts to CBs or LBs.

There are exceptions, such as our very own Mo Lewis who made the pro bowl and all pro teams starting at age 27-30. Not saying hightower is one of those guys.

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23 minutes ago, C Mart said:

Here are some comments by niners fans

Quote

I was surprised we let him go, but our DB's are stacked.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if he turned into Marcus Cooper 2.0, startable and gets stats but makes mistakes.

Quote

He played both safety and corner for us, really didn't do terribly in either role. I think he's better suited to play safety though, he definitely isn't going to be the fastest or most athletic DB on your roster. But absolutely worth a spot on the back end of the 52 as depth

Sounds like a solid depth signing if he signs here

Edited by JETSfaninNE
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Just now, NYJ37/12 said:

There are exceptions, such as our very own Mo Lewis who made the pro bowl and all pro teams starting at age 27-30. Not saying hightower is one of those guys.

the use of the word "general" was quite intentional.

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42 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Yet, all of those players add significantly more value than an inside linebacker.

Not if their best days are behind them when they get here. What value did Cromartie add? In the long run, Revis and Marshall added zero value besides one season where we failed to make the playoffs. Hightower can grow with the team.

I'm not saying paying him $12 million is a good idea. I just like that the Jets are interested in a young player whose very good at his position instead of an old player who use to be one of the best at his.

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Just now, ScarletKnight89 said:

Not if their best days are behind them when they get here. What value did Cromartie add? In the long run, Revis and Marshall added zero value besides one season where we failed to make the playoffs. Hightower can grow with the team.

I'm not saying paying him $12 million is a good idea. I just like that the Jets are interested in a young player whose very good at his position instead of an old player who use to be one of the best at his.

Statistically speaking, Hightowers best days are behind him.

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2 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Not if their best days are behind them when they get here. What value did Cromartie add? In the long run, Revis and Marshall added zero value besides one season where we failed to make the playoffs. Hightower can grow with the team.

I'm not saying paying him $12 million is a good idea. I just like that the Jets are interested in a young player whose very good at his position instead of an old player who use to be one of the best at his.

We won't  be making the playoffs next year with hightower.  Hey I agree that if you are going after FA it is better to get a younger guy but the team appears to be 'over investing; in a position as they have done in the past.  We have drafted 3 lbs in the past two years.

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4 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Statistically speaking, Hightowers best days are behind him.

And David Harris should be rooming with the Crypt keeper, so what . One guy is still capable on the field and in the class room and the other guy isn't .  Every Room on an NFL team needs a veteran and when you can get one with this resume at his age, you do it. The Jets can absorb this contract for the next 3 years without a problem, so why not .

We don't have 1 player on this team carrying a crazy cap figure that can't be gotten rid of  .

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11 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

We won't  be making the playoffs next year with hightower.  Hey I agree that if you are going after FA it is better to get a younger guy but the team appears to be 'over investing; in a position as they have done in the past.  We have drafted 3 lbs in the past two years.

Like I said, I wasn't necessarily in favor of giving him a massive offer. I just value him as a young player whose one of the better ones at his position. He's somebody who could grow with the team going forward.

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6 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

And David Harris should be rooming with the Crypt keeper, so what . One guy is still capable on the field and in the class room and the other guy isn't .  Every Room on an NFL team needs a veteran and when you can get one with this resume at his age, you do it. The Jets can absorb this contract for the next 3 years without a problem, so why not .

We don't have 1 player on this team carrying a crazy cap figure that can't be gotten rid of  .

You're acting like our only option is Hightower or Harris.

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3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

You're acting like our only option is Hightower or Harris.

No one is against upgrading the team. The problem is that the Jets want to pay $12 million for an ILB. It's way too much money.

If they're going to sign an ILB, they should look at Kevin Minter. He's a very good player who will come cheaper, and he knows Bowles' system. FWIW he's also a year younger than Hightower.

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Just now, gEYno said:

You're acting like our only option is Hightower or Harris.

No, I'm acting like this would be a good get . If it doesn't happen, it doesn't, but that doesn't change the fact that this would be a good get for the Jets . Before Hightower even was a consideration, my focus was on Minter because of his knowledge of the scheme this team runs .  Minter is 27, and so is Hightower, so when Hightower became a consideration, my focus shifted .

By e way, as of this moment, to my knowledge, it is the only options  .

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2 hours ago, C Mart said:

He's 27..And has been a member, and contributor, to 4 championships (2 at Alabama & 2 NE)

27 year olds become 30 real fast.

exactly how does this being part of a championship thing translate into a positive? A guy who drove a BMW for a few years and suddenly financially needs to drive a chevy lumina ....... hoe does that chevy become better

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2 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

27 year olds become 30 real fast.

exactly how does this being part of a championship thing translate into a positive? A guy who drove a BMW for a few years and suddenly financially needs to drive a chevy lumina ....... hoe does that chevy become better

Simple, does the Chevy get him to work now with the BMW in someone else's garage ?  Personally, I take the Chevy .

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1 hour ago, phill1c said:

Ok, then replace High School with college in my argument. Its the same premise.

The qb argument is a very humorous notion that seems to incorporate the same logic as your main argument.

I will agree to disagree because I think we are definitely on opposite sides of this issue with no significant common ground.

It's not the same premise.  The best offensive linemen will almost invariably be LTs.  You are trying to complicate football, acting like guard and tackle are so inherently different.  The point is to block.  How many of the top guards played LT in college?  They transition inside, either because they are not good enough or due to physical limitations.  Very few top picks come out as guards.  Guys like Decastro are few and far between.  Branden Albert was a top G coming out.  He plays LT now.  Why did he make that transition?  Because LT is more important.  Why didn't he play LT in college?  Because D'Brick and Eugene Monroe were better.

I am not saying you can't spend any money on the interior line.  I am saying that when your 3 highest paid linemen are interior players, you are not properly allocating your resources.  If it is because you got lucky with a later pick, that's cool.  It is easier to get lucky with a later pick inside than out.  Hopefully we hit with Shell.  Likewise, at LB, the outside players are usually going to make more - rush guys are simply harder to find and you have to pay a premium.   Instead we have a #1 pick, a high dollar old vet and we are courting a guy for QB money when our OLBs are underwhelming 3rd rounders who combined for 5 sacks.  That is backwards if you ask me  

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Schefter on twitter-  Dont'a Hightower is returning to the New England Patriots, sources tell ESPN. New England's off-season rolls on.

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2 minutes ago, SR24 said:

Schefter on twitter-  Dont'a Hightower is returning to the New England Patriots, sources tell ESPN. New England's off-season rolls on.

Schefter is the only one of these so called "insiders" who is worth anything. He is so far more in the loop it's not funny. The rest of these guys just throw darts at a board.

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