So who is the next GM and Head Coach

[dbatesman]

13 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

2014 draft.  Look at that draft, how many picks we had, who we spent them on, who we passed up and try and to convince me that you aren't trolling because I know for a fact you aren't that stupid.  Saying Maccagnan is not as bad as Idzik doesn't have to be a compliment.  It just means John Idzik was really f*cking bad.

The only butthurt that ever pops up around here hasn't come from the people (like me and plenty others) that hope Maccagnan lands us a championship (or at least a QB) one day.  If he does neither, than on to next as far as I'm concerned.  This all started because someone else is still a**mad at Maccagnan didn't give Mike Glennon 14-15 million per year.  That someone isn't me.  I'm perfectly fine with not spending sh*t this FA.

Please, by all means, point me to all the great non-Leonard Williams players Maccagnan has drafted.

[dbatesman]

Just now, dbatesman said:

Please, by all means, point me to all the great non-Leonard Williams players Maccagnan has drafted.

(This is the part where you list every single player Maccagnan has drafted followed by phrases like "shows promise" or "looks like a player" or "is poised for a big season" or some other dumb sh*t, then act like these are statements of fact rather than non-falsifiable word salad.)

[Mogglez]

19 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Please, by all means, point me to all the great non-Leonard Williams players Maccagnan has drafted.

 

19 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

(This is the part where you list every single player Maccagnan has drafted followed by phrases like "shows promise" or "looks like a player" or "is poised for a big season" or some other dumb sh*t, then act like these are statements of fact rather than non-falsifiable word salad.)

Or I could just say that it's generally thought that you don't judge an entire draft until 3 years in so we'll have to revisit this sometime in the future since I agree with that sentiment and that's how I feel?  If things don't improve much and we don't show any glimmer of "hope", Maccagnan will have most definitely been fired by then and I'll admit that I was wrong about him.

Players develop over time and other stagnate/regress.  I like a few guys but I know damn well that they may never reach the potential that they've shown.

[JustInFudge]

28 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Please, by all means, point me to all the great non-Leonard Williams players Maccagnan has drafted.

This is fun debate.  Idzik stripped the team down and won 8 games and then 4.  Mac went all in with a veteran QB, a bunch of other pricey veterans and won 10 and then went further all in the following season and won 5.  Not good look for either but I would say the later is much worse all things considered.

The draft?  Both are disasters in this category.  I cant really credit Mac for Leo.  That was a gift.  Idzik pulled Sheldon, Winters, Enunwa who are all pretty good.  Geno looks twice as good Petty/Hack.  The thing that Idzik has working against him is the quantity of picks and lack of talent acquired through those picks and the fact he had a historically loaded draft at dire position of need (WR) and literally didnt hit till the 6th round.  

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Mac resigns more of Idzik's picks than his own.  You've already got Winters resigned, Enunwa should be extended, maybe bringing Geno back, do they let Sheldon walk if they cant trade him?  Who is worthy of a 2nd contract from Mac?  Leo.  And??????

[JustInFudge]

13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Honestly, I couldn't pull that off. May be @JiF though.

I'm flattered you think that I could pull that off. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, dbatesman said:

(This is the part where you list every single player Maccagnan has drafted followed by phrases like "shows promise" or "looks like a player" or "is poised for a big season" or some other dumb sh*t, then act like these are statements of fact rather than non-falsifiable word salad.)

To be fair, "shows promise" or "looks like a player" or "is poised for a big season" all require one simple thing "is in the league".  That is more than you can say for most Idzik picks.  After this year, we should be able to get a more honest read on guys like Simon, Mauldin, Burress and Shell.  There are few guys from Idzik's drafts still kicking around, but it is likely that Aboushi, Amaro, Milliner, Enemkpali, Dixon, Jeremiah George will join Jalen Saunders, Shaq Evans, Taj Boyd on the out of the league list.

[dbatesman]

33 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

To be fair, "shows promise" or "looks like a player" or "is poised for a big season" all require one simple thing "is in the league".  That is more than you can say for most Idzik picks.  After this year, we should be able to get a more honest read on guys like Simon, Mauldin, Burress and Shell.  There are few guys from Idzik's drafts still kicking around, but it is likely that Aboushi, Amaro, Milliner, Enemkpali, Dixon, Jeremiah George will join Jalen Saunders, Shaq Evans, Taj Boyd on the out of the league list.

Idzik's picks were almost uniformly terrible. My beef is with the idea that Maccagnan is "worlds better." After two years, neither one made the playoffs and neither one provided anything remotely resembling a long-term answer at QB, WR1, CB1, OLT, or EDGE. Going player-by-player is just picking the fly s**t out of the pepper.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

Idzik's picks were almost uniformly terrible. My beef is with the idea that Maccagnan is "worlds better." After two years, neither one made the playoffs and neither one provided anything remotely resembling a long-term answer at QB, WR1, CB1, OLT, or EDGE. Going player-by-player is just picking the fly s**t out of the pepper.

Sure.  Both seem bad, but with Maccagnan there is still hope. Hope is a dangerous thing.  Especially on message boards.

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

The thing that Idzik has working against him is the quantity of picks and lack of talent acquired through those picks and the fact he had a historically loaded draft at dire position of need (WR) and literally didnt hit till the 6th round.  

I don't count Enunwa as much of a hit.  He's turned into a nice player, but as you said, it was a position of dire need and the kid did not actually see the field until his third year.  That does not help much when your WR2 is Jeremy Kerley and David Nelson, TJ Graham, Greg Salas and Chris Owusu are duking it out for WR3.  If need picks require years of development time they did not fill the need.  Winters as a need pick the prior year was much better, but still no great shakes. 

[Skeptable]

19 hours ago, thadude said:

I'd love to say Jim Harbaugh but that would be too optimistic

Definitely Jim Harbaugh

[Pcola]

6 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Definitely Jim Harbaugh

Woody did interview him before hiring Rex.  If we have the top pick and Arnold declares, we could probably get our choice of head coaches.

[NoBowles]

4 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Ok, well let's start with the fact that DRAFTRON outperforms every GM,  regardless of what processor he's running.

What did DRAFTRON say about Hackenburg?

 

[dbatesman]

27 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

What did DRAFTRON say about Hackenburg?

 

"No"

[NoBowles]

36 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

"No"

Have you asked Mac yet if he wants to borrow DRAFTRON for this upcoming draft?

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, NoBowles said:

What did DRAFTRON say about Hackenburg?

 

 

 

[dbatesman]

9 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Have you asked Mac yet if he wants to borrow DRAFTRON for this upcoming draft?

I don't have his number

[RutgersJetFan]

3 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Idzik's picks were almost uniformly terrible. My beef is with the idea that Maccagnan is "worlds better." After two years, neither one made the playoffs and neither one provided anything remotely resembling a long-term answer at QB, WR1, CB1, OLT, or EDGE. Going player-by-player is just picking the fly s**t out of the pepper.

Mike Maccaggnan (is it 2 g's or 2 c's? I can never remember) used the 51st pick of the draft on Christian Hackenberg. There is not one pick that Idzik made within the first four rounds that was that bad. Not Amaro and certainly not McDougle, both who were at least capable of wearing football pads.

In the end I really don't see the point in this. It's like arguing over Sanchez, Geno, and Fitz. We're just comparing one mound of triceratops sh*t to another. Who cares?

[RutgersJetFan]

And yeah, that was a Ian Malcolm reference. Sup.

[dbatesman]

1 minute ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Mike Maccaggnan (is it 2 g's or 2 c's? I can never remember) used the 51st pick of the draft on Christian Hackenberg. There is not one pick that Idzik made within the first four rounds that was that bad. Not Amaro and certainly not McDougle, both who were at least capable of wearing football pads.

In the end I really don't see the point in this. It's like arguing over Sanchez, Geno, and Fitz. We're just comparing one mound of triceratops sh*t to another. Who cares?

^this

[dbatesman]

1 minute ago, RutgersJetFan said:

And yeah, that was a Ian Malcolm reference. Sup.

[RutgersJetFan]

Just now, dbatesman said:

 

[Powpow]

21 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

I think Macc's still here in 2018, and Bowles is gone.

Yup

[NoBowles]

14 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Mike Maccaggnan (is it 2 g's or 2 c's? I can never remember) used the 51st pick of the draft on Christian Hackenberg. There is not one pick that Idzik made within the first four rounds that was that bad. Not Amaro and certainly not McDougle, both who were at least capable of wearing football pads.

In the end I really don't see the point in this. It's like arguing over Sanchez, Geno, and Fitz. We're just comparing one mound of triceratops sh*t to another. Who cares?

I would argue that passing on Carr, Garrapolo and Bridgewater is a far greater F up than picking Hackenberg with the 51st pick. Hackenberg likely won't amount to anything, but at the end of the day, but passing on those 3 when you have Geno Smith, and taking Pryor who sucks as well, is pretty bad. I also would argue that the Dee Millner pick is far, far worse at 9 than Hackenberg at 51.

[RutgersJetFan]

8 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I would argue that passing on Carr, Garrapolo and Bridgewater is a far greater F up than picking Hackenberg with the 51st pick. Hackenberg likely won't amount to anything, but at the end of the day, but passing on those 3 when you have Geno Smith, and taking Pryor who sucks as well, is pretty bad. I also would argue that the Dee Millner pick is far, far worse at 9 than Hackenberg at 51.

See?

[Pcola]

The problem is that unless the GM and Front Office is established and had some success, they are scared sh!tless of taking a QB in the first round.  

Even when the guy turns out great (Winston & Mariota), your still probably getting fired.  

Elway was the exception because he just won a SB.  LA, Fisher didn't even finish the season.  Philly has had a pretty good return thus far.

So with Rex influencing our GMs (the whole reporting directly to Woody BS,) there was no way Rex was going to draft an offensive player in the first round after his failings on every offensive player he took early (Sanchez, Ducasse, Hill).

That wasn't Idzik's fault.  Probably similar situation that we find ourselves in now.  Only hopefully both McCags and Bowles have a scouting background where as Idzik and Rex wouldn't didn't know crap of finding talent and developing it.

 

[NoBowles]

8 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

See?

"No"

[ZachEY]

57 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I would argue that passing on Carr, Garrapolo and Bridgewater is a far greater F up than picking Hackenberg with the 51st pick. Hackenberg likely won't amount to anything, but at the end of the day, but passing on those 3 when you have Geno Smith, and taking Pryor who sucks as well, is pretty bad. I also would argue that the Dee Millner pick is far, far worse at 9 than Hackenberg at 51.

If the argument is who we didn't draft, then you need to consider that Dak Prescott was left on the board for Hackenberg, and then there's no clear winner for worse QB management.

[NoBowles]

6 minutes ago, gEYno said:

If the argument is who we didn't draft, then you need to consider that Dak Prescott was left on the board for Hackenberg, and then there's no clear winner for worse QB management.

Fair enough, except I am not convinced that Dak is a franchise QB, while on the other hand, I think at least 2 of the 3 I mentioned are. Im still yet to see Dak win a game when he is forced to throw the ball and his offense cannot run it. But its a fair point. And I am not a Mac supporter, I think he jury is out in a big way on him. I just think its comical when people who are pro Idzik want to make Maccagnan out to be as bad. I don't think anyone can be as bad.

[ZachEY]

17 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Fair enough, except I am not convinced that Dak is a franchise QB, while on the other hand, I think at least 2 of the 3 I mentioned are. Im still yet to see Dak win a game when he is forced to throw the ball and his offense cannot run it. But its a fair point. And I am not a Mac supporter, I think he jury is out in a big way on him. I just think its comical when people who are pro Idzik want to make Maccagnan out to be as bad. I don't think anyone can be as bad.

Carr is the only one I think you can say is a franchise QB at this point.  Bridgewater is certainly light years ahead of what we've got, but until we see him after the injury, I'm not sure.  Garrapollo, I don't think you can comment on until we see him succeed as the Pats long term starter, or as a starter elsewhere.

I like Dak, but you're right that it's too early to tell and he's in a good situation.

Your position on Macc is, I think, similar to many people's position on Idzik.  There are no Idzik fans.  The people who defended him, did so based on his FA restraint, which I certainly stand by.  Just about everyone agrees his drafts are terrible and that he should have been fired.  I'm still waiting on UnitedWhoFans to return and give me an logical explanation as to how he would have retained Idzik considering Rex was being fired, but I suppose I'll have to continue to wait.  The point, as was made above, is that Idzik was bad, and Macc was bad, and it's silly to argue over degrees of failure here, as, after two years, both teams were in terrible shape, with little promising talent.

[SenorGato]

I would like a Jeff and Jeff GM/HC combos 

Two Mikes in a row at GM, crazy 

[UntouchableCrew]

26 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Your position on Macc is, I think, similar to many people's position on Idzik.  There are no Idzik fans.  The people who defended him, did so based on his FA restraint, which I certainly stand by.  Just about everyone agrees his drafts are terrible and that he should have been fired.  I'm still waiting on UnitedWhoFans to return and give me an logical explanation as to how he would have retained Idzik considering Rex was being fired, but I suppose I'll have to continue to wait.  The point, as was made above, is that Idzik was bad, and Macc was bad, and it's silly to argue over degrees of failure here, as, after two years, both teams were in terrible shape, with little promising talent.

I think it's clear Idzik had a smart strategy. He wanted to accumulate picks, be smart with big contracts, build from within. This is what smart organizations (Pats, Packers, Ravens, Steelers, etc.) all do. He was just unable to implement it because doing that requires you to draft well and he was a horrifically bad drafter. It also didn't help him that he was awkward and uncharismatic in a town with a tough media presence and was saddled with the waning years of Rex.

Two drafts in it's not clear that Maccagnan is all that much better, unfortunately, which is the real issue. He was supposed to be the "talent evaluator" to the bean counters we'd had previously but his 2015 draft is basically a disaster outside of the slam dunk Leonard Williams pick and the 2016 draft isn't looking all that impressive. Most disturbing is that his two QB picks were questionable at the time and have flopped thus far, calling into question if he's the right guy to pick our franchise QB going forward.

[NoBowles]

48 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Carr is the only one I think you can say is a franchise QB at this point.  Bridgewater is certainly light years ahead of what we've got, but until we see him after the injury, I'm not sure.  Garrapollo, I don't think you can comment on until we see him succeed as the Pats long term starter, or as a starter elsewhere.

I like Dak, but you're right that it's too early to tell and he's in a good situation.

Your position on Macc is, I think, similar to many people's position on Idzik.  There are no Idzik fans.  The people who defended him, did so based on his FA restraint, which I certainly stand by.  Just about everyone agrees his drafts are terrible and that he should have been fired.  I'm still waiting on UnitedWhoFans to return and give me an logical explanation as to how he would have retained Idzik considering Rex was being fired, but I suppose I'll have to continue to wait.  The point, as was made above, is that Idzik was bad, and Macc was bad, and it's silly to argue over degrees of failure here, as, after two years, both teams were in terrible shape, with little promising talent.

The only thing I would say is that Idzik had a luxury that I don't believe Maccagnan had. Idzik had the freedom to tear down Tannenbaums mess and have a rough year or two, but as you said, his drafting was so horrid that he had to go. Maccagnan on the other hand I firmly believe was told to use the money and compete now, I truly believe after Idzik backlash, Woody told Mac use the money and try to win right away. But unless Maccagnan adds a lot of talent in this years draft, and some of his picks start to show some life, he is likely just as bad as Idzik was, and should be gone.

[UnitedWhofans]

1. I guess people have given up on Burris, Shell, Edwards, Peake and Simon. Maccagnan equals Idzik here, which is total nonsense.

2. It doesn't matter why Idzik got fired, the impression it gave was damaging enough

[UnitedWhofans]

34 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

The only thing I would say is that Idzik had a luxury that I don't believe Maccagnan had. Idzik had the freedom to tear down Tannenbaums mess and have a rough year or two, but as you said, his drafting was so horrid that he had to go. Maccagnan on the other hand I firmly believe was told to use the money and compete now, I truly believe after Idzik backlash, Woody told Mac use the money and try to win right away. But unless Maccagnan adds a lot of talent in this years draft, and some of his picks start to show some life, he is likely just as bad as Idzik was, and should be gone.

Peake, Simon, Shell didn't show life?

[UnitedWhofans]

Now let me be clear, if Macc blows this draft, show him the door. But to say he is as bad as Idzik is dumb. Idzik didn't win Executive of the Year, did he?