So who is the next GM and Head Coach

[ZachEY]

3 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

1. I guess people have given up on Burris, Shell, Edwards, Peake and Simon. Maccagnan equals Idzik here, which is total nonsense.

2. It doesn't matter why Idzik got fired, the impression it gave was damaging enough

Don't punt... Your entire thesis has been that Jet fans are, your words, "scum of the NFL" for calling for the firing of Idzik after just two years and that Woody is an idiot who listens to the fans and makes bad decisions.  So, Rex had 6 seasons and was fired.  Explain, in detail, what you do next...

Do you fire Idzik after 3 years, and fire the new HC after 1?

Do you fire Idzik and force the new GM to keep that HC?

Do you give Idzik a 4th draft?

If so, do you fire Idzik after 4 years, and fire the new HC after 2?

Or, does Idzik get a 5th draft, and then maybe you'll fire both together after 3 years of the HC?

Please, be specific, and tell us what you think the Jets should have done in this position that was the correct move... Or, as you call yourself a "man among men," man up and acknowledge that everything you've whined about for two years collapsed in on itself in this thread because you didn't fully appreciate the situation.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Don't punt... Your entire thesis has been that Jet fans are, your words, "scum of the NFL" for calling for the firing of Idzik after just two years and that Woody is an idiot who listens to the fans and makes bad decisions.  So, Rex had 6 seasons and was fired.  Explain, in detail, what you do next...

Do you fire Idzik after 3 years, and fire the new HC after 1?

Do you fire Idzik and force the new GM to keep that HC?

Do you give Idzik a 4th draft?

If so, do you fire Idzik after 4 years, and fire the new HC after 2?

Or, does Idzik get a 5th draft, and then maybe you'll fire both together after 3 years of the HC?

Please, be specific, and tell us what you think the Jets should have done in this position that was the correct move... Or, as you call yourself a "man among men," man up and acknowledge that everything you've whined about for two years collapsed in on itself in this thread because you didn't fully appreciate the situation.

If the Jets were in a position where they would be forced to fire John Idzik after 3 years, based on his first two years, then I would think his choice of coach would have led to that decision. It really depends on how the third year goes down. I would assume that Idzik would have spent the money as well. And if I am to assume about the same results, then I would say keep Idzik and the new HC.

If if goes badly, I think I would clear out both of them and not make the same mistake that I would with Rex. Because I think if the team did badly in his 3rd year as GM, the coaching choice would have something to do with it.

[Bleedin Green]

15 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

If the Jets were in a position where they would be forced to fire John Idzik after 3 years, based on his first two years, then I would think his choice of coach would have led to that decision. It really depends on how the third year goes down. I would assume that Idzik would have spent the money as well. And if I am to assume about the same results, then I would say keep Idzik and the new HC.

If if goes badly, I think I would clear out both of them and not make the same mistake that I would with Rex. Because I think if the team did badly in his 3rd year as GM, the coaching choice would have something to do with it.

So basically, you believe it would have been logical to give Idzik either be award with all of the credit, or the new HC given all of the blame, depending on that single season on field performance?  I'm sure that would go well when the ultimate options were letting Idzik's continue on into year 4, or every single HC candidate imaginable turning the Jets down for interviews the following year.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Bleedin Green said:

So basically, you believe it would have been logical to give Idzik either be award with all of the credit, or the new HC given all of the blame, depending on that single season on field performance?  I'm sure that would go well when the ultimate options were letting Idzik's continue on into year 4, or every single HC candidate imaginable turning the Jets down for interviews the following year.

No depending on the third season, I would either dump them both or keep them. Period

[Bleedin Green]

27 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

No depending on the third season, I would either dump them both or keep them. Period

With that kind of logic, there's no reason the Jets should have kept Idzik any longer than they did.  Your argument over what should have been done completely contradicts your argument of why firing Idzik was supposedly wrong.  If 1 year would have been enough to fire a HC because of Idzik's incompetence, then 2 years was more than enough to fire Idzik for his own incompetence.  And in the case of firing a head coach after 1 year when he gets dragged down with the awful GM, not a single legitimate coaching candidate would even consider the Jets.  The only other alternative you're suggesting is if the HC was able to overcome Idzik's failures to put together a respectable season, the Jets would then have to continue to keep Idzik around until the HC either became a failure himself.

Well, I'll give you credit for one thing, this is perhaps the first time I've ever been convinced the Jets really could do things quite a bit worse than they actually do them.

[UnitedWhofans]

9 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

With that kind of logic, there's no reason the Jets should have kept Idzik any longer than they did.  Your argument over what should have been done completely contradicts your argument of why firing Idzik was supposedly wrong.  If 1 year would have been enough to fire a HC because of Idzik's incompetence, then 2 years was more than enough to fire Idzik for his own incompetence.  And in the case of firing a head coach after 1 year when he gets dragged down with the awful GM, not a single legitimate coaching candidate would even consider the Jets.  The only other alternative you're suggesting is if the HC was able to overcome Idzik's failures to put together a respectable season, the Jets would then have to continue to keep Idzik around until the HC either became a failure himself.

Well, I'll give you credit for one thing, this is perhaps the first time I've ever been convinced the Jets really could do things quite a bit worse than they actually do them.

1.  No it is not. Firing the HC is a side effect of clearing the system. A necessary sacrifice.  However, you are bringing up the doomsday scenario.

2. No. Not when coming in with a new GM. See the cycle starts again with a new GM and new HC. If a legit HC candidate knows that they will be tied to a GM for 3 years, then they will take the job.

 

[Jetscode1]

On 3/9/2017 at 6:08 PM, rangerous said:

why would they have drafted a guy (at least use a high draft pick) after sanchez's first season considering they went to the afc championship game?  they wouldn't.  but teams do stockpile qb's.  the patsies drafted garapolo with a 2nd or 3rd round pick and followed on two seasons later with brisset.  the thing is, these guys can become assets and trading pieces even if they don't knock off the starting qb.

helps if the team can coach

[thadude]

11 hours ago, gEYno said:

If the argument is who we didn't draft, then you need to consider that Dak Prescott was left on the board for Hackenberg, and then there's no clear winner for worse QB management.

At this point Mac and Blowes only shot is they get Watson or Kizer in round 2 and they become this year's Prescott

[thadude]

8 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Now let me be clear, if Macc blows this draft, show him the door. But to say he is as bad as Idzik is dumb. Idzik didn't win Executive of the Year, did he?

So far Mac's record is not that much better than Idzik's

 

That's a very fair statement 

[thadude]

3 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

No depending on the third season, I would either dump them both or keep them. Period

Blowes is our worst head coach since Kotite.  It's not even close the guy is a way worse game manager than Herm, is even less involved with the offense than Rex and players hate him more than Mangini

 

That said Mac's record as GM has not been good.  His best move (getting Marshall for nothing) he just negated.  If he botches this draft he's helping Idzik with coffee orders next year

[TuscanyTile2]

The next GM will likely be Chris Johnson.

[ZachEY]

6 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

If the Jets were in a position where they would be forced to fire John Idzik after 3 years, based on his first two years, then I would think his choice of coach would have led to that decision. It really depends on how the third year goes down. I would assume that Idzik would have spent the money as well. And if I am to assume about the same results, then I would say keep Idzik and the new HC.

If if goes badly, I think I would clear out both of them and not make the same mistake that I would with Rex. Because I think if the team did badly in his 3rd year as GM, the coaching choice would have something to do with it.

Ok, so, just to be clear, you spend two years whining about firing a GM who did a terrible job after two seasons, but you would be comfortable firing a head coach after one.

Nothing inconsistent here.  Nope.

[ZachEY]

5 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

1.  No it is not. Firing the HC is a side effect of clearing the system. A necessary sacrifice.  However, you are bringing up the doomsday scenario.

2. No. Not when coming in with a new GM. See the cycle starts again with a new GM and new HC. If a legit HC candidate knows that they will be tied to a GM for 3 years, then they will take the job.

 

1. It's not the Doomsday Scenario, based on the evidence, it's the most likely scenario.  After bombing two drafts, most likely, he'd bomb a 3rd.

2. Starting the cycle over again... Isn't that exactly what the Jets did when they fired the GM after two drafts/seasons bombed, without putting themselves in a position to fire a HC (likely on a 4 year contract) after 1 season?

Just admit it, your who premise was deeply flawed and collapsed in on itself... It's okay, you'll survive.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

1. It's not the Doomsday Scenario, based on the evidence, it's the most likely scenario.  After bombing two drafts, most likely, he'd bomb a 3rd.

2. Starting the cycle over again... Isn't that exactly what the Jets did when they fired the GM after two drafts/seasons bombed, without putting themselves in a position to fire a HC (likely on a 4 year contract) after 1 season?

Just admit it, your who premise was deeply flawed and collapsed in on itself... It's okay, you'll survive.

Yes they did,but the impression it left on Maccagnan led to the competitive rebuild. If Idzik is retained one more year, maybe Macc feels he has time and goes for what he is doing now instead of the competitive rebuild

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Ok, so, just to be clear, you spend two years whining about firing a GM who did a terrible job after two seasons, but you would be comfortable firing a head coach after one.

Nothing inconsistent here.  Nope.

Did I say comfortable? A neccesary sacrifice, I said

[UnitedWhofans]

Or what could be done is fire Idzik, keep the HC, and let the incoming GM decide whether or not he wants to keep him. Dont force him to keep him, but let the GM make the decision

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Yes they did,but the impression it left on Maccagnan led to the competitive rebuild. If Idzik is retained one more year, maybe Macc feels he has time and goes for what he is doing now instead of the competitive rebuild

So, unless you're Macc's friend, this is something you've made up.  You have no idea what his mentality is or was and the reasons for his strategy.  You also don't know what he's doing now.  So far, all we've seen is him not overpay for a backup QB who hasn't played in two years, cut an aging and declining center, cut an aging and quitting CB, and cut an aging and unhappy WR.  As such, this point is completely invalid because it's based primarily on your narrative rather than facts.  

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Did I say comfortable? A neccesary sacrifice, I said

I mean, you've already been exposed as a hypocrite, but you really don't see your hypocrisy here?  Firing a GM who failed in 2 drafts is a crime worthy of spamming this board for two years, calling Jets fans the scum of the NFL, and saying the team should move, but firing a coach after 1 year is "a necessary sacrifice?"  Please...

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Or what could be done is fire Idzik, keep the HC, and let the incoming GM decide whether or not he wants to keep him. Dont force him to keep him, but let the GM make the decision

So, after one year, the HC's job is still in jeopardy.  How exactly does that send a message that a "proper rebuild" is acceptable?

[UnitedWhofans]

5 minutes ago, gEYno said:

So, unless you're Macc's friend, this is something you've made up.  You have no idea what his mentality is or was and the reasons for his strategy.  You also don't know what he's doing now.  So far, all we've seen is him not overpay for a backup QB who hasn't played in two years, cut an aging and declining center, cut an aging and quitting CB, and cut an aging and unhappy WR.  As such, this point is completely invalid because it's based primarily on your narrative rather than facts.  

I mean, you've already been exposed as a hypocrite, but you really don't see your hypocrisy here?  Firing a GM who failed in 2 drafts is a crime worthy of spamming this board for two years, calling Jets fans the scum of the NFL, and saying the team should move, but firing a coach after 1 year is "a necessary sacrifice?"  Please...

So, after one year, the HC's job is still in jeopardy.  How exactly does that send a message that a "proper rebuild" is acceptable?

1. IMO, it's either this or Woody forced him to competitive rebuild. I'm giving Woody the benefit of the doubt. It is conjecture, but it's either 1 of those two options.

It's simply logic. You've just seen a guy get fired after two years when he slow rebuilt. Why would he go and do the same thing that his predecessor did when that was never really given a chance to succeed? Logic. Now remember Macc is in Houston, so he doesn't have inside knowledge of the situation of why Idzik was fired. It makes no difference why he was fired, it's the impression

2. Here's the problem with that. We know that NOW, but it would have been unfair for that to be the verdict at the time. Drafts usually need 2-3 years to judge.

3. Because to me a proper rebuild is more about the GM than the HC. It's the hierarchical structure. The GM gets the players that sets the tone for the locker room and the team. He hires the HC which also sets the tone. The GM is more important

 

[UnitedWhofans]

IN other words, the HC is essentially an extension of the GM. So when the GM goes....

[section314]

 Woody consented to the rebuild. Once that was decided he should have extended Macc and Bowles two more years, thus eliminating the stigma that the coach will be gone. Clear the air, let all prospective FA's know that there is a plan in the works, and be a part of it if it's something you believe in . Only mistake I see so far.

[thadude]

8 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

The next GM will likely be Chris Johnson.

Sober Scott Mcloghan

[thadude]

20 minutes ago, section314 said:

 Woody consented to the rebuild. Once that was decided he should have extended Macc and Bowles two more years, thus eliminating the stigma that the coach will be gone. Clear the air, let all prospective FA's know that there is a plan in the works, and be a part of it if it's something you believe in . Only mistake I see so far.

And when Woody and his bro see an empty MetLife by week 4 or 5 they will consent to rebuilding the FO and Coaching Staff

[southtown24th]

GM: Ted Ryno

Coach: Roy Winton

[thadude]

You guys act like Woody Johnson stands by his word.  He promised Mangini in 2008 after the Favre trade he would get a 4th year regardless of what happened 

 

And Mangini was fired 4 months later

 

[thadude]

1 minute ago, southtown24th said:

GM: Ted Ryno

Coach: Roy Winton

GM: Harbaugh 

HC: Harbaugh

 

Woody opens the trust fund.  We get Darnold and the #1 pick.  Woody tells Harbaugh his next call to him wil be after the jets win the super bowl until then Harbaugh does only what he wants

[section314]

Just now, thadude said:

And when Woody and his bro see an empty MetLife by week 4 or 5 they will consent to rebuilding the FO and Coaching Staff

I disagree. Jet fans will support a young team that plays hard and has a chance to get better. What they won't support is a team that consistently has no direction, that is always in chaos. 

[thadude]

4 minutes ago, section314 said:

I disagree. Jet fans will support a young team that plays hard and has a chance to get better. What they won't support is a team that consistently has no direction, that is always in chaos. 

It's not about the fans it's about the owner

 

And these patient fans didn't show up last year after the team sucked.  Stubhub tix were $11 for home games

[section314]

1 minute ago, thadude said:

It's not about the fans it's about the owner

 

And these patient fans didn't show up last year after the team sucked.  Stubhub tix were $11 for home games

Right. People sent a message....we're not coming to watch Fitz, Revis, Marshall, Mo, Sheldon and the other older and high priced bums who don't give a rat's ass. 

[thadude]

3 minutes ago, section314 said:

Right. People sent a message....we're not coming to watch Fitz, Revis, Marshall, Mo, Sheldon and the other older and high priced bums who don't give a rat's ass. 

Unwatchable football is what it is

 

No jets fans are showing up to see Hackenturd try to throw to Devin Smith while Brady puts up a 65 spot on Bowles's D

[section314]

1 minute ago, thadude said:

Unwatchable football is what it is

 

No jets fans are showing up to see Hackenturd try to throw to Devin Smith while Brady puts up a 65 spot on Bowles's D

We'll see. You are selling the fans short. That want a team that has the same passion as they do. 

[TuscanyTile2]

40 minutes ago, thadude said:

GM: Harbaugh 

HC: Harbaugh

 

Woody opens the trust fund.  We get Darnold and the #1 pick.  Woody tells Harbaugh his next call to him wil be after the jets win the super bowl until then Harbaugh does only what he wants

Sign me up for this.

[thadude]

23 minutes ago, section314 said:

We'll see. You are selling the fans short. That want a team that has the same passion as they do. 

Didn't know it was about passion I thought it was about W's

 

We will be seeing very few of those next year unless Mac hits a monster home run in the draft

[section314]

25 minutes ago, thadude said:

Didn't know it was about passion I thought it was about W's

 

We will be seeing very few of those next year unless Mac hits a monster home run in the draft

Of course the bottom line is winning. I'm talking about the fans rooting for a team that wants to win as badly as they do.

[NoBowles]

1 hour ago, thadude said:

GM: Harbaugh 

HC: Harbaugh

 

Woody opens the trust fund.  We get Darnold and the #1 pick.  Woody tells Harbaugh his next call to him wil be after the jets win the super bowl until then Harbaugh does only what he wants

Boom! Love it!

[ZachEY]

4 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

1. IMO, it's either this or Woody forced him to competitive rebuild. I'm giving Woody the benefit of the doubt. It is conjecture, but it's either 1 of those two options.

It's simply logic. You've just seen a guy get fired after two years when he slow rebuilt. Why would he go and do the same thing that his predecessor did when that was never really given a chance to succeed? Logic. Now remember Macc is in Houston, so he doesn't have inside knowledge of the situation of why Idzik was fired. It makes no difference why he was fired, it's the impression

2. Here's the problem with that. We know that NOW, but it would have been unfair for that to be the verdict at the time. Drafts usually need 2-3 years to judge.

3. Because to me a proper rebuild is more about the GM than the HC. It's the hierarchical structure. The GM gets the players that sets the tone for the locker room and the team. He hires the HC which also sets the tone. The GM is more important

 

1) There's a 3rd option.  Macc did what he thought was best for the team.  You decided to dismiss that one, but it's quite plausible.  In fact, we don't have any evidence to suggest Macc is any more competent than what we've seen, so everything else suggested is just you making up excuses to support your point.  Macc has made more bad moves than good ones at this point, you simply, as you point out later, value the GM over all, so you don't want to believe it's of his own volition, and rather because he was scared he'd get fired like Idzik.  You know what he could do to not get fired like Idzik?  Stop drafting like Idzik.  It's really quite simple in that regard.

2) It's already been pointed out to you that it was well known the draft class was a disaster, and the biggest reason was that half the players were cut.  The fact is, we knew then that Idzik was a spectacular failure.  Everyone knew it.  You didn't.  It's not hindsight when everyone was correct all along and you didn't see it until much later.  2-3 years isn't a rule, it's an idea.  In this case, 2-3 years wasn't required.  Haven't you yourself said that you will chance your mind on Macc if he doesn't succeed in this draft?  Well, does that mean you'll change your mind on him in 2020, because you require that 3 years?

3) If GMs were regarded as so much more important than HCs, HCs wouldn't be getting paid 2x-4x what GMs get paid.

Face it, your plan for the Jets was to keep letting Idzik fail, and then fire a HC after one year, because you think they're disposable, despite the fact that the league pays them significantly more than the GMs.  Firing Idzik after two failed drafts, in your mind, sent the wrong message, but firing a 1st year HC on a team devoid of talent does not.