OL FA signings affecting our draft approach

[Ecuadorian Jet]

OT Beachum

G Winters

OT Ijalana

C Johnson (tender)

Which position would you guys say is more pressing? T, G, C? Will he have decent play from the T position to the point that even if we draft 1, it should not happen until the mid rounds? What do you guys think?

 

 

[T0mShane]

If there's a nice, agile OLT prospect sitting there in round three, go for it. Otherwise, I think we have reasonable JAGs at OLT and C now, with two decent guards and a fingers-crossed young dude at RT

[BroadwayJets]

Would be nice if Cam Robinson fell to the 2nd. I think he has an arrest, which is why he's not considered the consensus best OT. I could be wrong about him being the best but I think he's a beast

[varjet]

Johnson is expensive and has a 1 year deal.   There are good centers to draft.  

[Ecuadorian Jet]

3 minutes ago, varjet said:

Johnson is expensive and has a 1 year deal.   There are good centers to draft.  

Would you go Pocic or Eflein (sp)?

[Gas2No99]

Elfein is the superior prospect and, like Big10 OSU Mangold, can play in FREEZING weather. 

[Pcola]

We know what Ijalana brings to the table and it's not much.  Johnson has played less than a half a season so we really don't know what he will bring.  And Shell has less experience than Wayne Hunter had when we gave him a starting gig.

This front office has neglected our OL since 2006.  There a several OTs and Cs in this draft after the first round.  We had had nothing but defensive minded HCs for the past decade and despite have defensive geniuses, we keep using 1st rounders to build up our D.

[Gas2No99]

Posted this in the Draft forum in regards to trading down put parlays into rebuilding the OLine with this draft:

50 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

hypothetical:

Trade down to a team like Washington (let's say they trade up for QB Watson, TYPICAL Snyder)

We would give up #6 overall and our 2017 5th (#150) for Their 1st (#17), their 2nd (#49) and DEMAND either their 2018 1st rounder OR 2 x 2017 4th Rndrs (#114) recoup it from last year's trade for Shell & their #123.

So you have #17-LT Garrett Bolles Utah, #49- C Pat Elfin OSU to start along with Shell @ RT, Winters & Carpenter @ Guards.

Yet STILL can use our OTHER 2nd, our 2x 3rd rounders, or our 2x 4th rounders on DBs IN ADDITION to our 5th,6th, and 7th  for added Depth and whatever talent trickles down. Or have that EXTRA 2018 1st rounder as SOLID ammo for a QB if we need to go get one next year. 

The Oline can be addressed and repaired with a PROMISING future if addressed accordingly. 

 

[Lil Woody]

Here's how I see it:

LT - Beachum and Ijilana are stop gaps. No real upside play here. We are looking for a LT in the draft.  Only issue is that there are maybe 4 or 5 that look like they can handle the position, and 2 of them are RAW.  Bolles looks like the best option, he's already 25 or whatever. Ramcyzck is my second choice, he has injury history though. Also not as athletic as Bolles and may end up as a RT where he may be a Ricky Wagner clone. Cam is a very low cieling LT prospect imo. Lacks needed the overall agility and doesn't have the footwork to match NFL speed rushers 1:1 imo. In a power run based offense, sure, but I think he's someone you draft and then immediately look to upgrade and move to RT. Look at Giants LT for a comp. Then you have Antonio Garcia who reminds me of Brick, but is not as refined and will need a year or 2. That's pretty much it imo.  Everyone else is a OG or RT prospect. But there is one kid from Bucknell who has the tools but is even more raw than Garcia. He's a developmental late round guy.

OG - Carpenter, Winters playing well and are locked in starters. Dozier needs to be upgraded.

OC - Johnson is only a spot starter. Another JP Machado. Would love to get one of the kids from OSU or LSU. 

RT - Shell on the rise.  Could keep Qvale as a swing player for now. We have got to let Shell continue his development.

Deep OG and RT class. OK Center class, gets weak fast after the top 2. Very weak at LT.

[Lil Woody]

22 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

Posted this in the Draft forum in regards to trading down put parlays into rebuilding the OLine with this draft:

 

Your demand is more in line with a team trading up for a 1st or 2nd pick in a coveted 1-2 QB class. Luck/RG3, Winston/Mariotta or Goff/Wentz.  This QB class is more in line with the  Bortles/Manziel/Bridgewater/Carr level draft imo. And before the snark comes out...please don't anybody snap back at me and call foul on player comparisons....I'm just likening the QB interest levels in this class to that one.

[Gas2No99]

13 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

Your demand is more in line with a team trading up for a 1st or 2nd pick in a coveted 1-2 QB class. Luck/RG3, Winston/Mariotta or Goff/Wentz.  This QB class is more in line with the  Bortles/Manziel/Bridgewater/Carr level draft imo. And before the snark comes out...please don't anybody snap back at me and call foul on player comparisons....I'm just likening the QB interest levels in this class to that one.

Nope. Disagree.   Go see the Jets & Carolina Draft Trade of 2007 that I cite in the Draft forum; and that was for a CB & to move up 11 spots. In my hypothetical it's moving up 11 spots AND into the Top 10. It could be to select to Watson (by Washingont in my example), Fournette (indy, Raiders if aggresive), or even Mike Williams by the Rams or Lions for their QBs.

There are some positional STUDS that are NOT QBs and I think teams may trade up for a non QB stud if he falls to #6. My IMPERATIVE is that the Jets get a 2018 1st rounder from any team where the Jets trade back MORE THAN 10 spots. 

 

 

And I find your Avatar HIGHLY annoying and stupid looking. 

[Ecuadorian Jet]

3 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

And I find your Avatar HIGHLY annoying and stupid looking. 

....jeez......or.......lol.....who knows

[Lil Woody]

4 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

And I find your Avatar HIGHLY annoying and stupid looking. 

Just like the real Woody Johnson.

[Lil Woody]

7 minutes ago, Ecuadorian Jet said:

....jeez......or.......lol.....who knows

?

I think you always gotta assume people's posts are light hearted jabs... I'd hope people read mine with that same tone. Otherwise we'd all just sound like arrogant assholes.

[Ecuadorian Jet]

8 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

Just like the real Woody Johnson.

hahaha

[Ghost420]

well since there is no OT worth taking at 6 I'd say the signings don't change much any position is fair game after round 1.

[Gas2No99]

18 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

Just like the real Woody Johnson.

I see that was your intention. Never been a fan of those BigHead type images, in general. You really did capture his essence with that avatar. 

10 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

?

I think you always gotta assume people's posts are light hearted jabs... I'd hope people read mine with that same tone. Otherwise we'd all just sound like arrogant assholes.

 . . . and THAT'S they key to surviving and enjoying this cyber playground. 

[Lil Woody]

1 minute ago, Gas2No99 said:

I see that was your intention. Never been a fan of those BigHead type images, in general. You really did capture his essence with that avatar.

I'm getting pretty good with the "paint" program. I think I missed my calling to be a retoucher or something.

[Gas2No99]

It seems common-sense consensus concedes that of either OTs Bolles, Lamp, Ramczyk, and Robinson NONE are worth a Top 10 pick and 15+ would be the ideal draft slots to select them. Jets should target teams #14-#26 and sees who's willing to acquiesce a 2018 1st rounder. 

[NYDreamer]

1 hour ago, Ecuadorian Jet said:

Would you go Pocic or Eflein (sp)?

Love both of those players and what they bring to the table.  Elfein is was also a wrester which helped him keep his balance.  Helping make the necessary running lanes for Ezeikial Elliot the year before.  Pocic has unique size for the center position at 6'6" and has helped open holes for this years running back Fournette.  Pocic has also played all other positions on the line.  Honestly, I would take both with my third round picks.

[Gas2No99]

1 minute ago, NYDreamer said:

Love both of those players and what they bring to the table.  Elfein is was also a wrester which helped him keep his balance.  Helping make the necessary running lanes for Ezeikial Elliot the year before.  Pocic has unique size for the center position at 6'6" and has helped open holes for this years running back Fournette.  Pocic has also played all other positions on the line.  Honestly, I would take both with my third round picks.

I see the 6'6" as a detriment due to blocking the QBs viewing lanes, JMO. 

Elfein's wrestling background, I think, is a HUGE plus for him. he's able to understand how to overtake larger NGs with proper leverage and technique. 

[BCJet]

1 hour ago, Lil Woody said:

Here's how I see it:

LT - Beachum and Ijilana are stop gaps. No real upside play here. We are looking for a LT in the draft.  Only issue is that there are maybe 4 or 5 that look like they can handle the position, and 2 of them are RAW.  Bolles looks like the best option, he's already 25 or whatever. Ramcyzck is my second choice, he has injury history though. Also not as athletic as Bolles and may end up as a RT where he may be a Ricky Wagner clone. Cam is a very low cieling LT prospect imo. Lacks needed the overall agility and doesn't have the footwork to match NFL speed rushers 1:1 imo. In a power run based offense, sure, but I think he's someone you draft and then immediately look to upgrade and move to RT. Look at Giants LT for a comp. Then you have Antonio Garcia who reminds me of Brick, but is not as refined and will need a year or 2. That's pretty much it imo.  Everyone else is a OG or RT prospect. But there is one kid from Bucknell who has the tools but is even more raw than Garcia. He's a developmental late round guy.

OG - Carpenter, Winters playing well and are locked in starters. Dozier needs to be upgraded.

OC - Johnson is only a spot starter. Another JP Machado. Would love to get one of the kids from OSU or LSU. 

RT - Shell on the rise.  Could keep Qvale as a swing player for now. We have got to let Shell continue his development.

Deep OG and RT class. OK Center class, gets weak fast after the top 2. Very weak at LT.

How can you say Beachem doenst have upside?  He struggled last year coming off an ACL tear, on a team that changed head coaches and OCs?  He was an up and coming player to the injury and has a lot of upside as a 27 year old player.

I think he at LT and Shell at RT with Ijalan as the swing is great upside and youth with the starters, and a veteran as swing.

Id love to see us draft Eflein to compete with Johnson and back up C/G as a rookie

[Lil Woody]

8 minutes ago, BCJet said:

How can you say Beachem doenst have upside?  He struggled last year coming off an ACL tear, on a team that changed head coaches and OCs?  He was an up and coming player to the injury and has a lot of upside as a 27 year old player

I hope you are right. I don't see it though. He played well in Pitt till his injury. Now he's 2 years removed from playing at a high level. He's still not an effective run blocker and hasn't shown that he is rounding back into form vs pass rush. We are basing our expectations on hope. I try not to do that. I'm just looking at a very undersized player, with a bad knee who excelled in a top program that does a great job catering to their players talents.  He went to a 2nd rate team and looked bad. Now he's on another 2nd rate team that doesn't have the 1st clue how to play to a players strengths. It all suggests stop gap imo. But like I said....I'll be thrilled to be dead wrong.

[Lil Woody]

1 hour ago, Gas2No99 said:

I see the 6'6" as a detriment due to blocking the QBs viewing lanes, JMO. 

Elfein's wrestling background, I think, is a HUGE plus for him. he's able to understand how to overtake larger NGs with proper leverage and technique. 

Worrying about viewing lanes is a tricky thing.  If you had Brees or Wilson sure, ok.  But most OL don't play upright. Now if we are talking about a guy with technical flaws that doesn't have enough bend and leverage...ok. Now the extra height is a bigger issue as it relates to leverage. But if you have a 6'2"+ QB in place, he'll usually see just fine over his lineman.

[rangerous]

3 hours ago, Pcola said:

We know what Ijalana brings to the table and it's not much.  Johnson has played less than a half a season so we really don't know what he will bring.  And Shell has less experience than Wayne Hunter had when we gave him a starting gig.

This front office has neglected our OL since 2006.  There a several OTs and Cs in this draft after the first round.  We had had nothing but defensive minded HCs for the past decade and despite have defensive geniuses, we keep using 1st rounders to build up our D.

true enough they haven't invested enough in the oline since 2006 but at the same time it's not like marvin powell and cubby ward are walking through the door anytime soon.  the point is these guys all have to start somewhere and there is more than enough film on shell and johnson to show if they're going to be able to hold down their positions. and maybe ialjalana didn't show he can play Lt very well.  that doesn't mean he can't be Rt or back up guard. many teams seem to be able to withstand a revolving door in the oline.  the jets can too with the right coaching.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, BCJet said:

How can you say Beachem doenst have upside?  He struggled last year coming off an ACL tear, on a team that changed head coaches and OCs?  He was an up and coming player to the injury and has a lot of upside as a 27 year old player.

I think he at LT and Shell at RT with Ijalan as the swing is great upside and youth with the starters, and a veteran as swing.

Id love to see us draft Eflein to compete with Johnson and back up C/G as a rookie

i think this is right.  and whose to say shell isn't moved over to Lt once training starts.  these guys all have to start somewhere.  i would draft an oline person with  one of the round 1- 4 picks though. 

[CanadaSteve]

3 hours ago, Pcola said:

We know what Ijalana brings to the table and it's not much.  Johnson has played less than a half a season so we really don't know what he will bring.  And Shell has less experience than Wayne Hunter had when we gave him a starting gig.

This front office has neglected our OL since 2006.  There a several OTs and Cs in this draft after the first round.  We had had nothing but defensive minded HCs for the past decade and despite have defensive geniuses, we keep using 1st rounders to build up our D.

This front office has only been in control for two years, and have picked 2 people on the line to the 5 picked by the previous regime in their 8 years.  Something tells me there will be more drafted here this year as well.

[Larz]

bunch of ******* jags

the o-line needs a complete rebuild

[Pcola]

9 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

This front office has only been in control for two years, and have picked 2 people on the line to the 5 picked by the previous regime in their 8 years.  Something tells me there will be more drafted here this year as well.

I know we have drafted OL, but using 5th, 6th, and 7th rounder isn't exactly investing at a position.  We have one OL starter that we drafted.  There are probably not many playoff teams that have to use free agency and other teams cast offs to handle the OL.  If Shell develops, that will be a positive, but it is way too early to judge.  He was quite terrible in preseason but in very limited action, he did well in December.

Eventually, we are going to be breaking in our long term answer at QB, it would be nice if we didn't have a bunch of Jags to throw out there as his protection.

[CanadaSteve]

9 hours ago, Pcola said:

I know we have drafted OL, but using 5th, 6th, and 7th rounder isn't exactly investing at a position.  We have one OL starter that we drafted.  There are probably not many playoff teams that have to use free agency and other teams cast offs to handle the OL.  If Shell develops, that will be a positive, but it is way too early to judge.  He was quite terrible in preseason but in very limited action, he did well in December.

Eventually, we are going to be breaking in our long term answer at QB, it would be nice if we didn't have a bunch of Jags to throw out there as his protection.

I think you will see Mac draft a C with one of those two 3rd's he has.  If they trade down, then a guy like Garret Bolles comes into play, as does Ryan Ramczyk.  Both are not worth the 6th pick, but if we traded down into the middle of the round.....

[Pcola]

Let's put it this was,it was so obvious during last year's draft that we desperately need to draft OL, that both GB & Houston traded up in front of us in the second round to draft Spriggs (GB - OT Indiana at 48) and Nick Martin (Hou from ND at 50).  So if it's obvious to two organizations that have gone to the playoffs the last two years that we need an infusion of talent in our OL, why we're we so focused on Hackenberg?

At that point last year, we had both a Clady and Mangold.  Since then, we've cut Giacomini, Mangold, and Clady.  And added a Jax cast off and a 5th round project.

[Pcola]

10 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I think you will see Mac draft a C with one of those two 3rd's he has.  If they trade down, then a guy like Garret Bolles comes into play, as does Ryan Ramczyk.  Both are not worth the 6th pick, but if we traded down into the middle of the round.....

My bet is that this team sticks to the same philosophy the past ten drafts.  Defense in the first, offensive long shot in the second, defense in the third.  You are probably correct with the comp pick.  

So I fully expect Hooker or Reddick at 6 and a reach in round 2, maybe Hodges from VT.

what is sad is that the second round is where the defensive talent is.  We could easily find our #2 CB at 39.  But because we have neglected offense for so long they will be compelled to use that pick on offense.

[section314]

14 hours ago, Ecuadorian Jet said:

Would you go Pocic or Eflein (sp)?

I'd go Orlovsky from West Va with one of the two 3rd rounders. Have to get a C, Johnson not the answer by any means.

[BCJet]

15 hours ago, rangerous said:

i think this is right.  and whose to say shell isn't moved over to Lt once training starts.  these guys all have to start somewhere.  i would draft an oline person with  one of the round 1- 4 picks though. 

It is imperative that Shell never plays a single snap at LT again.  He was a vastly superior player at RT in college then the one season he played LT.  Then not only did he look completely lost at LT in the preseason, and then look extremely good at RT in the regular season, but he has said in the press that he is much more comfortable on the right side then the left, which clearly shows in his play.

I think he could solidify the RT position for us for a while so lets not mess with things and keep him in the spot where he feels comfortable.

Also, with respect to our overall philosophy, dont forget that Mac was attempting to move up to take Tunsil, so he isnt unwilling to invest high picks in the Oline, he just perfers (like he does with OLBs) to draft mid round lineman and groom them each year.