To QB or not QB

[HessStation]

8 minutes ago, greenwave81 said:

It's more than intangibles and skill set though...or more spread offense College QBs would successfully make the transition to the NFL.

The tricky part is figuring out who has the ability to adapt mentally to the NFL style systems...who can process information at light speed and make proper decisions is a big part of it and needs to be considered.

Hell, Geno had all the tools and was an excellent spread QB ( as we're so many others that failed for that matter). But Geno struggled with the mental aspects of the NFL game...was it purely bad coaching (possibly) or was it an inherent inability to adapt on Genos part?

IMO, that's the tricky part of selecting a QB. Wonder what Mac thinks of Watsons mental makeup? It's obvious he considered Hacks past experience in an NFL system quite important as he's mentioned it on many occasions.

Agree except for the no brainers like Luck, whom it appears Darnold might be very close pending another good season at USC...or possibly even Rosen.

[JustInFudge]

2 minutes ago, HessStation said:

His arm, his size, his awareness, his speed.

Arm?  Didnt seem to be an issue shredding NFL loaded D's like FSU, Bama and Ohio St.  He looked like the best QB throwing the ball at the combine.  I know, I know, MPH or something.

Size? Since when is 6'3 220 a problem?

Awareness?  Sure.  He can take better care of the ball.  But when you're going to back to back National Champ games and tearing apart Bama with ease, I think you're pretty aware.

Speed?  What's the problem here?  You want fast QB's as if that's important at all.  Okay, he ran a 4'6.  

[HessStation]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

Arm?  Didnt seem to be an issue shredding NFL loaded D's like FSU, Bama and Ohio St.  He looked like the best QB throwing the ball at the combine.  I know, I know, MPH or something.

Size? Since when is 6'3 220 a problem?

Awareness?  Sure.  He can take better care of the ball.  But when you're going to back to back National Champ games and tearing apart Bama with ease, I think you're pretty aware.

Speed?  What's the problem here?  You want fast QB's as if that's important at all.  Okay, he ran a 4'6.  

Ok he doesn't have elite metrics or optics. He'd be the perennial #1 if so. 

[nicg4360]

His arm, his size, his awareness, his speed.

That's so over exaggerated...Tom Brady had one of the slowest 40 times of all quarterbacks hell there were offensive lineman than could run faster. Tom Brady also looked like a stick and had poor arm strength. He seems to do ok. The only thing you at question would be his awareness. I was on the bus to completely skip till the third round for a QB but this kid is killing it every where he goes. The combine and his pro day he was great. He just wins....So much so it's not in his nature to lose. The Jets need that mentality a true leader on offence. That is also what they are lacking. I think he gets this game so much he will be able to adjust to the NFL rather quickly. Mac will have a big decision to make.

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[HessStation]

12 minutes ago, nicg4360 said:

 

 

That's so over exaggerated...Tom Brady had one of the slowest 40 times of all quarterbacks hell there were offensive lineman than could run faster. Tom Brady also looked like a stick and had poor arm strength. He seems to do ok. The only thing you at question would be his awareness. I was on the bus to completely skip till the third round for a QB but this kid is killing it every where he goes. The combine and his pro day he was great. He just wins....So much so it's not in his nature to lose. The Jets need that mentality a true leader on offence. That is also what they are lacking. I think he gets this game so much he will be able to adjust to the NFL rather quickly. Mac will have a big decision to make.

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It's not over exaggerated it's reality. 

Watson doesn't have an elite skill set. Deal with it. No, it doesn't mean he can't be a really good QB. I just got done saying if there's one in this class it's probably Watson. 

 

And Tom Brady is an anomaly. Might as well insert every QB prospect ever to make that argument 

 

[jetsfansince7]

Because draftniks over-analyze EVERYTHING about prospects. They put emphasis on bullsh!t like hand size, 40 times, MPH, height, etc.
They ignore the only important thing to pay attention to (ie the prospect's performance in football games), and worry about nonsense.
Watson played against the best teams in college football, and shredded them. He played Bama's defense (the closest thing in college to an NFL defense), and lit them up. Twice.
I hate saying it because normally he's a f*cking moron , but JiF is right in this case. I don't see what's not to like about this kid. If he's there at #6, I take him without hesitation.

Was Watson accurate in his proday workout?


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[nicg4360]

It's not over exaggerated it's reality. 
Watson doesn't have an elite skill set. Deal with it. No, it doesn't mean he can't be a really good QB. I just got done saying if there's one in this class it's probably Watson. 
 
And Tom Brady is an anomaly. Might as well insert every QB prospect ever to make that argument 
 

Deal with it lol. Funny. You made my day.

Like I said I'm on the fence I just think it's something the jets could regret. I think the best move in their interests would be a trade down grab OJ and pick a Peterman type in the third not blowing premium 1st and second rounders. That way if he works out great if not it's not the end of the world because you are right if his talent does not translate to the NFL it would be devastating with the other talent that was available. With all these visits Mac is having with QBs it's either a smoke screen or reality he is highly considering a QB. We will find out in a few weeks.

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[HessStation]

4 minutes ago, nicg4360 said:

Deal with it lol. Funny. You made my day.

Like I said I'm on the fence I just think it's something the jets could regret. I think the best move in their interests would be a trade down grab OJ and pick a Peterman type in the third not blowing premium 1st and second rounders. That way if he works out great if not it's not the end of the world because you are right if his talent does not translate to the NFL it would be devastating with the other talent that was available. With all these visits Mac is having with QBs it's either a smoke screen or reality he is highly considering a QB. We will find out in a few weeks.

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Suck for Sam is really the only hope.

[nicg4360]

Suck for Sam is really the only hope.

I remember various boards last year wanting us to tank for Watson and Kizer and even some for Kayaa. Well here we are. Who's to say it's not gonna happen next year.

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[HessStation]

If you guys want to bank on the anomaly might as well go with the two young qbs already on the roster. They're as good a bet as any in this draft.

[HessStation]

1 minute ago, nicg4360 said:

I remember various boards last year wanting us to tank for Watson and Kizer and even some for Kayaa. Well here we are. Who's to say it's not gonna happen next year.

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Here's to luck finally happening for the Jets.*cheers

[HessStation]

2 minutes ago, nicg4360 said:

I remember various boards last year wanting us to tank for Watson and Kizer and even some for Kayaa. Well here we are. Who's to say it's not gonna happen next year.

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Also, If you look at every publication and expert they're saying next year's class is head over heels better than this year's. But whatevs. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, HessStation said:

if I thought Watson, Trubisky or Kizer were going to be any good I would obviously agree with you. 

 

Of course, but by logical extension if you thought Hack would not be good, you would also agree with me.

I'm intrigued as to what you see that makes you think hack is going to be good, so good in fact that we need not pursue other options to stack up behind him.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, HessStation said:

As much as i disagree w you, at least Watson has all the mental make up you're looking for. And really what is Brady other than mental make up (and cheating but) anyway I'd rather Watson with the pedestrian to solid skill set and great intangibles. 

Trubisky I don't even see how that would be exceptable and Kizer would be ridiculous as you'd be drafting him for all the same reasons you drafted Hackenberg. 

A reasonable argument, +1

[HessStation]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Of course, but by logical extension if you thought Hack would not be good, you would also agree with me.

I'm intrigued as to what you see that makes you think hack is going to be good, so good in fact that we need not pursue other options to stack up behind him.

If we're going to continue this you're gonna have to stop using strongman arguments and putting words in my mouth. The idea is play what you already spent resources on as they are as much an anomaly as any pick in this year's draft . If the odds and percentages are correct, the team will suck, have an early pick next year, where you take one, as per every draft analyst, the odds of finding a franchise QB are MUCH better in 2018

[nicg4360]

Also, If you look at every publication and expert they're saying next year's class is head over heels better than this year's. But whatevs. 

That's great I get it but for an example Trubisky's biggest knock and really only knock is how much he has played and people don't know what to expect with such a small sample size. Darnold has started one year...That's what some are trying to say is that alot can change after only 1 year of playing. Now defense's have seen him play and can gameplay to his weaknesses etc.

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[Warfish]

Just now, HessStation said:

If we're going to continue this you're gonna have to stop using strongman arguments and putting words in my mouth. The idea is play what you already spent resources on as they are as much an anomaly as any.

That's not my intent, but it is a logical extension of the argument you're making.  If it weren't, your argument would boil down to "I think Hack is no good, and the QB draft class no good, so we'll just play McCown (or Hack comedy option) till some future time with better prospects and a good enough jets Draft pick".

There is an argument to be made about sunk costs when it comes to Hack.  The old chestnut of "just because he cost a 2nd doesn;t mean we should keep wasting time and resources on him if he's not legit".

Just now, HessStation said:

If the odds and percentages are correct, they team will suck, have an early pick next year, where you take one, as per every draft analyst, the odds of finding a franchise QB are MUCH better in 2018

Perfectly acceptable position to take my friend.  It's just risky as hell, because a million things could go wrong and leave the Jets either without a QB to draft, or staring at the 4th or 5th ranked guy in this supposed "great year class" and having to take him.

As I say, in the modern NFL, you can take a QB every year.  The cap is no obstacle, and only old conservative fan/media outrage really stands in the way, the same problem that makes teams sign and play guys like McCown and Fitzpatrick.  

[HessStation]

2 minutes ago, nicg4360 said:

That's great I get it but for an example Trubisky's biggest knock and really only knock is how much he has played and people don't know what to expect with such a small sample size. Darnold has started one year...That's what some are trying to say is that alot can change after only 1 year of playing. Now defense's have seen him play and can gameplay to his weaknesses etc.

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Trubisky is 6'2 with an average arm and would not be ranked higher than Darnold or Rosen based off of just this one year. Doesn't mean he won't make it but means the percentages would be lower. And what is the draft but judging risk and reward.

[HessStation]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

That's not my intent, but it is a logical extension of the argument you're making.  If it weren't, your argument would boil down to "I think Hack is no good, and the QB draft class no good, so we'll just play McCown (or Hack comedy option) till some future time with better prospects and a good enough jets Draft pick".

There is an argument to be made about sunk costs when it comes to Hack.  The old chestnut of "just because he cost a 2nd doesn;t mean we should keep wasting time and resources on him if he's not legit".

Perfectly acceptable position to take my friend.  It's just risky as hell, because a million things could go wrong and leave the Jets either without a QB to draft, or staring at the 4th or 5th ranked guy in this supposed "great year class" and having to take him.

As I say, in the modern NFL, you can take a QB every year.  The cap is no obstacle, and only old conservative fan/media outrage really stands in the way, the same problem that makes teams sign and play guys like McCown and Fitzpatrick.  

Yes risky but no more risky than taking one of these QBs at 6 this year. Always a bit of risk and luck involved when nothing is a sure thing and anything can happen. If they Did start Hack or Petty and weren't in position for one of the big QBs next year, that just might mean they have something in one of these two young QBs which could be great.

[19andOhWait]

"Franchise quarterback" 

 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, HessStation said:

Ok he doesn't have elite metrics or optics. He'd be the perennial #1 if so. 

Agreed.  He doesnt but I also dont think they're nearly as bad as people are making it out to be and this really only applies to his arm. 

[JustInFudge]

39 minutes ago, 19andOhWait said:

"Franchise quarterback" 

 

Would you mind posting all of Jameis Winston's 18 picks he threw his sophomore year?  Or Matt Ryan's 19 from his senior year?

Because they're not "Franchise quarterbacks" or anything like that. 

[HighPitch]

2 hours ago, nicg4360 said:

I remember various boards last year wanting us to tank for Watson and Kizer and even some for Kayaa. Well here we are. Who's to say it's not gonna happen next year.

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I remember that. good point.

 

the cycle will never end

[HighPitch]

id take watson now, and thew best qb available in next years first. Cut petty.

 

My god, between the 3 one should pan out!

[HighPitch]

16 hours ago, greenwave81 said:

so...say, you might want Darnold next year, but there is no guarantee you'll even have that opportunity even if you were willing to trade your entire draft and some of next years.  

Second, drafting a QB at 6 doesn't preclude the NYJ giving Petty and Hack EVERY opportunity this season, gets the newly drafted QB a year in the system and you can still draft another QB next year if needed.  

 

this guy gets it

[HighPitch]

16 hours ago, greenwave81 said:

so...say, you might want Darnold next year, but there is no guarantee you'll even have that opportunity even if you were willing to trade your entire draft and some of next years.  

Second, drafting a QB at 6 doesn't preclude the NYJ giving Petty and Hack EVERY opportunity this season, gets the newly drafted QB a year in the system and you can still draft another QB next year if needed.  

 

this guy gets it

[HighPitch]

16 hours ago, greenwave81 said:

so...say, you might want Darnold next year, but there is no guarantee you'll even have that opportunity even if you were willing to trade your entire draft and some of next years.  

Second, drafting a QB at 6 doesn't preclude the NYJ giving Petty and Hack EVERY opportunity this season, gets the newly drafted QB a year in the system and you can still draft another QB next year if needed.  

 

this guy gets it

[Adoni Beast]

I'm usually the guy who wants to draft QB's until we have our guy. I wanted Bridgewater, Carr, Garropolo didn't care about waiting to see Geno's progress first.

If Hooker or OJ are on the board I'd rather take either one over Trubisky, or take a trade down instead of Trubisky. But, if the Jets love him, they have to take him. Just like they'd have to take another QB next year if they love him. 

Until someone cements the position as theirs, it should always be open for addition/replacement. 

[Paradis]

We're high in energy in this thread, but short on education. The fact that CLE and SF are passing on drafting a QB tells you everything you need to know.

I get the frustration and the insufferable wait we're locked in... doesn't change the fact that we can't WILL one these guys to be something they're not.

Better to rebuild the roster with the resources and materials available in the draft IMO.


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[Warfish]

38 minutes ago, Paradis said:

The fact that CLE and SF are passing on drafting a QB tells you everything you need to know.

You have a Crystal Ball you forgot to tell us all about?

First, there is every possibility Watson is taken by San Fran.  They're working him out.  They've shown interest.  A few Mocks out there have him going at this slot.

Second, Cleveland at #1 and #12 is going to take a calculated risk.  Go with the elite #1 overall talent at #1, and hope (pray?) Trubisky is still there at #12.....or they might trade up to get him, they certainly have the pick-ammo to do it.

We won't know if they pass till draft day.  Speculating they will is like speculating they won't.  Just speculation.

38 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I get the frustration and the insufferable wait we're locked in... doesn't change the fact that we can't WILL one these guys to be something they're not.

Is Watson better than the 4th best prospect next year?  Because that might be the best one we can draft next year.  Getting a #1 overall pick isn't easy, no matter what the Colts did in the Luck Draft.  Footballs bounce funny that way.  

What I fear is we sit, do nothing (well, draft a Safety!  Yay Safeties!) and muddle away 2017 under McCown and perhaps a brief snapshot of Hack.  

Then we miss out on the top QB's in 2018 and where are we then?  Yep, drafting a 4th prospect and searching for FA Vets again and hoping maybe Hack has come round.  

What some of us want to see is more than one legitimate prospect now, not in some unspecified might-never-happen future.  It's fine to want Darnold (or whomever replaces him by the time next year rolls around, a la Kizer this draft) and to even take him if we're lukcy enough and he's still they guy.

But thats betting the whole farm on a longshot.  Someone has to be the #1 and #2 QB's in the interim.  

38 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Better to rebuild the roster with the resources and materials available in the draft IMO.
 

Till we draft another DLineman because "BAP" right?  

[HessStation]

Drafting a QB at 6 this year and then drafting a QB, let's say, at 1 or wherever they pick next year would prove/show complete incompetence, sorry. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, HessStation said:

Drafting a QB at 6 this year and then drafting a QB, let's say, at 1 or wherever they pick next year would prove/show complete incompetence, sorry. 

Why wait? We can draft Trubisky or Watson if they fall to 6 and then if Mahomes is available in the 2nd we can snatch him too!  I mean smart organizations keep drafting QBs until they find one.  Right?

[HessStation]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why wait? We can draft Trubisky or Watson if they fall to 6 and then if Mahomes is available in the 2nd we can snatch him too!  I mean smart organizations keep drafting QBs until they find one.  Right?

Funny thing is I was always the guy saying take one every year til you get it right. But they have two we need to see first. And how many times have they just chosen the wrong year to do it? Too many. If all signs point to next year's class as the goods and the team is structured for the suckage this yr...for the love of all holy, wait and take the Qb next year. Bc I can't take another 10 years of missing the mark. Cocksucking garbage franchise.

[Warfish]

20 minutes ago, HessStation said:

Drafting a QB at 6 this year and then drafting a QB, let's say, at 1 or wherever they pick next year would prove/show complete incompetence, sorry. 

No need to be sorry.  

Truth is, Macc is already on the hot-seat of QB-picking incompetence for his picks of Petty and Hack.  

If Hack doesn't rise up and show something, anything, this year.....well, Macc looks more like a misguided buffoon for making that pick when and where he did, and failing to address the QB position in any form over three years on the job, literally the most important position on the field.

Do any of us want a buffoon picking ANY QB for us in 2018? 

So aye, failing to properly pick QB's over several seasons is indeed a serious form of incompetence.  Sadly, we're already well on the way with Petty and Hack in that vein.

21 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why wait? We can draft Trubisky or Watson if they fall to 6 and then if Mahomes is available in the 2nd we can snatch him too!  I mean smart organizations keep drafting QBs until they find one.  Right?

Well, we should probably also pick up Peterson in the 4th.

Draft all the QB's from Orbit.  It's the only way to be sure. 

[greenwave81]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

We're high in energy in this thread, but short on education. The fact that CLE and SF are passing on drafting a QB tells you everything you need to know.

I get the frustration and the insufferable wait we're locked in... doesn't change the fact that we can't WILL one these guys to be something they're not.

Better to rebuild the roster with the resources and materials available in the draft IMO.


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CLE traded out of a chance to take Wentz last year.  Not certain yet, but they would certainly re-consider that decision in hind sight IMO.  Not sure they're any better at evaluating QBs than we are