Jets added 3rd most talent according to Gil Brandt

[Integrity28]

1 minute ago, sourceworx said:

Safety is a low impact position when you have no pass rush, and no corners on the outside. Those positions impact the defense much more than a good safety does.

The state of the offense makes taking safeties back-to-back an even worse decision.

I understand taking Adams based on his leadership qualities. This team certainly needs it. But then taking another safety right after is just plain inexcusable.

Football is complementary. Strong players make weak players better. Saftey, if one of the most talented players on teh field, is not low impact.

Anyway, I generally agree with the back-to-back safety displeasure. Inexcusable? Eh, I dunno. Lots of teams doubled-down on secondary players this draft. I think GB drafted 3 RBs too. The draft was only good at a couple of positions. Play the hand your dealt. 

Personally, I would have preferred a 2nd round TE/WR/CB and a 4th round 2nd safety.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, varjet said:

I really think being injury prone is genetic, perhaps with a combination of diet, lifestyle, etc.

As a general matter, I don't think players go from being injury prone to being generally healthy. 

Curtis Martin?

[Integrity28]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

Stephen Gostkowski is the ultimate high impact player

@T0mShane

Just figured I'd shorten the curve on your waiting for approval from him.

[sourceworx]

Just now, Integrity28 said:

Football is complementary. Strong players make weak players better. Saftey, if one of the most talented players on teh field, is not low impact.

Anyway, I generally agree with the back-to-back safety displeasure. Inexcusable? Eh, I dunno. Lots of teams doubled-down on secondary players this draft. I think GB drafted 3 RBs too. The draft was only good at a couple of positions. Play the hand your dealt. 

Personally, I would have preferred a 2nd round TE/WR/CB and a 4th round 2nd safety.

That would have been an easier pill to swallow.

[Gas2No99]

1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

I don't think anyone is disputing that they added talented players. They just spent their first two picks on talented players at a low-impact position. 

I think that's too much of an assumption on your part. Like draft picks, positional priority - high v. low impact - varies and depends on the team and scheme. For all we know, Bowles' defense has been crap because he NEVER had the safeties for his defense to properly function correctly (always beat on the DEEP ball in '16). The first FA they wanted to sign was the ARZ FS Jefferson and failed to get him. Bowles inherited Pryor & Miles, signed Gilly out of a weak S FA class his first year, tried & failed to sign HIS former FS from ARz, and THEN Jets take 2 safeties w/the first 2 picks. Safety doesn't seem low-impact to me under this regime. Perhaps adding these two DB "talents" ACTUALLY shores up the secondary enough that MAYBE NOW those exotic blitzes and the underachieving DLine have those 2 extra seconds to penetrate better and get more sacks (hopeful wish, no?) That would imply, to me at least, the Safety is actually a HIGH PRIORITY and HIGH IMPACT position for Bowles' scheme to work. 

Like I said, as in life, it's subjective. Safety is NOT Low-impact for this current Jets' coaching staff and scheme.

Pete Carrol's first defensive pick w/Seattle upon rejoicing the NFL HC ranks: Earl Thomas. Because a FS is KEY to Cover 3. 

 

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

yet, the terrible play by safeties last year was a big reason they had maybe the worst pass defense in the nfl.  so maybe it's low impact if they don't suck.

I think the Jets getting the type of safeties Bowles needed for HIS defense to function properly make this perceived low-impact position the solution to correcting an underachieving defense. They plugged two holes in their dyke and perhaps that will allow the rest of the defensive scheme (and the line enough time) to be more effective and crush opposing offenses. This minor correction could result in a VASTLY improved defense just by addressing that glaring weakness of the '16 team. It's all positive speculation on my part at this point. 

[kdels62]

39 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

From a talent and value standpoint Adams and Maye are excellent picks. They could both be pro bowl level players. But both skew more towards SS more than FS and are not ball hawks. Even at at Pro Bowl level they are not going to have a huge impact. Our defense will certainly be better, but I will say this:

Let's say instead that the Jets drafter OJ Howard and then Dalvin Cook.

I would state that not only would those picks improve the offense significantly and provide additional security for Hack, but the increase in offense would actually keep the defense off the field enough that those two picks would actually improve defensive performance as much as the two players we selected.

It is why I still think the first 2 selections are an F.

 

 

 

There's the flaw that you're claiming that both Maye and Adams are SS when both were trusted as nickel guys as much as they were trusted as SS. Maye's big thing is his coverage ability. That being said I don't like the Maye pick, but I can understand how having 2 good safeties helps our young bump and run corners. 

This idea of reaching for a QB has never worked. It results from panic skewing scouting results and players that are not worth the pick getting chosen. That draft class with Locker, Ponder, Gabbert - all reaches. Mark Sanchez in the evaluation process was a late first rounder until everyone got desperate. The same goes for Goff, Hackenberg, Bortles. 

The skill players on offense are not terrible. You have a veteran receiver capable of going for 1000 yards and 8 tds, you have a young 4th year guy coming off a 900 yard 5 td break out year, a 2nd year deep threat wr that had 600 yards last year. And all of that is fortified with more hand catching big catch radius guys.

If Petty or Hack is anything above average those skills players are enough to get a winning record. That set of skill players gets to the Super Bowl with Aaron Rodgers.

[Integrity28]

4 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

That would have been an easier pill to swallow.

Need I remind you, you root for the Jets, Alannis.

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

I don't think anyone is disputing that they added talented players. They just spent their first two picks on talented players at a low-impact position. 

Low impact? Then why did Belichick move McCourty to safety, then be one of the ONLY GUYS the Patriots sucked it up & PAID good money to so not to lose him? Everybody on this board knows that BB probably has the best eye for what players can do. By resigning McCourt to a pretty high salary for the Patriots he believes safety is a very important position in this day & age of football by probably the smartest guy when it comes to adapting to all the newest rules ect.

[T0mShane]

16 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

@T0mShane

Just figured I'd shorten the curve on your waiting for approval from him.

Would you consider this a high-impact or a mid-level-impact broadside? 

[Integrity28]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Would you consider this a high-impact or a mid-level-impact broadside? 

I'm the best player in the game. High impact. So good, we don't even need the hyphen.

[Augustiniak]

10 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Low impact? Then why did Belichick move McCourty to safety, then be one of the ONLY GUYS the Patriots sucked it up & PAID good money to so not to lose him? Everybody on this board knows that BB probably has the best eye for what players can do. By resigning McCourt to a pretty high salary for the Patriots he believes safety is a very important position in this day & age of football by probably the smartest guy when it comes to adapting to all the newest rules ect.

b/c belichick dominates with his TEs and needed a safety to cover other teams' Tes.  the jets finally drafted guys who can cover tes and also actually drafted a talented TE.

[varjet]

33 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Curtis Martin?

Generally.  There are exceptions.

Curtis Martin was a 3rd round draft pick.   I think he partied alot when younger.  Parcells really reached him and changed him.

I hopefully someone could connect with Dalvin Cook.  The lower you pick someone with issues, the better.

[peebag]

28 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Low impact? Then why did Belichick move McCourty to safety, then be one of the ONLY GUYS the Patriots sucked it up & PAID good money to so not to lose him? Everybody on this board knows that BB probably has the best eye for what players can do. By resigning McCourt to a pretty high salary for the Patriots he believes safety is a very important position in this day & age of football by probably the smartest guy when it comes to adapting to all the newest rules ect.

Because Belly knows that Brady has the O covered.  We don't have much on that side of the ball.

[kdels62]

29 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Low impact? Then why did Belichick move McCourty to safety, then be one of the ONLY GUYS the Patriots sucked it up & PAID good money to so not to lose him? Everybody on this board knows that BB probably has the best eye for what players can do. By resigning McCourt to a pretty high salary for the Patriots he believes safety is a very important position in this day & age of football by probably the smartest guy when it comes to adapting to all the newest rules ect.

Weird how the franchise everyone clamors about pays the first round safety, takes mid and late round fliers on skill positions and cornerbacks and yet all of that goes unnoticed. I'm not saying Mac is pulling some great Patriots like strategy but his decisions seem to have more in common with a well built franchise than with the opinions of armchair GMs. 

[Beerfish]

McCourty was moved to safety because he sucked at CB, eh then got good at safety.  Lets not be like the national media and say every thing belli poes is due to his unwavering genius.

[CTM]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

 

From a positional valuation standpoint, Safety isn't a smart pick to make early because they don't command high salaries. At least not the average ones. However, if you have the chance to add an exceptional one, you do it.

 

So in Ape world, the fact that NFL GM's aren't willing to pay a lot for a safety (which you concede here) doesn't imply anything about positional value?

Absurd.

[Beerfish]

3 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Weird how the franchise everyone clamors about pays the first round safety, takes mid and late round fliers on skill positions and cornerbacks and yet all of that goes unnoticed. I'm not saying Mac is pulling some great Patriots like strategy but his decisions seem to have more in common with a well built franchise than with the opinions of armchair GMs. 

His moves are more in line with 'oh sh*t we have a head coach who's whole defense sees hinged on safeties and the ones we have (one drafted 1st round a few yeas ago) stink!

[Jetster]

2 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Weird how the franchise everyone clamors about pays the first round safety, takes mid and late round fliers on skill positions and cornerbacks and yet all of that goes unnoticed. I'm not saying Mac is pulling some great Patriots like strategy but his decisions seem to have more in common with a well built franchise than with the opinions of armchair GMs. 

Exactly. Butler was an UDFA. But Belichick still didn't pay him & brought in Gilmore as soon as Butler & his agent got greedy,lol. Dude is a genius and gets away with the sh*t he does because like Parcells use to say, he has the pelts on the wall. If that happened in NY the press would be calling our GM stupid, cheap, and saying, "oh my god, he won us a Super Bowl & this is how you treat him?" In New England.... its just another day, BB will just find someone else to play with the excellent Devin McCourty.

[Integrity28]

3 minutes ago, CTM said:

So in Ape world, the fact that NFL GM's aren't willing to pay a lot for a safety (which you concede here) doesn't imply anything about positional value?

Absurd.

No doofus, the term Source used was "high impact". I shouldn't have to explain that "impact" happens on the field. Safeties, if you look around the league, are some of the MOST impactful players in the league. Especially in the years that followed the rule changes to place emphasis on the passing game. Since those rule changes, you have consistently seen a trend of safeties playing a bigger role in IMPACTING the quality of defense around the league.

This span of time hasn't been long. So, you haven't seen positional valuation impacted much... yet. However, if you look at the marquee safeties around the league, you will see that there is a direct correlation between "high impact" players in the safety position, and franchises investing more in them. Most notably, Eric Berry just signed the most recent contract for a "high impact" safety, and it happens to be a record setting contract for a safety. So, the positional valuation is slowly catching up to the trends. This is how things are in the NFL though, the league doesn't always adjust to new trends all at once, or quickly. 

All that being said, Source wasn't talking about positional value. If he had, I would have dispelled that notion too... as I just did now.

So, go flick your sub-navel skin flap until you think of the next most stupid thing ever.

[kdels62]

15 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Exactly. Butler was an UDFA. But Belichick still didn't pay him & brought in Gilmore as soon as Butler & his agent got greedy,lol. Dude is a genius and gets away with the sh*t he does because like Parcells use to say, he has the pelts on the wall. If that happened in NY the press would be calling our GM stupid, cheap, and saying, "oh my god, he won us a Super Bowl & this is how you treat him?" In New England.... its just another day, BB will just find someone else to play with the excellent Devin McCourty.

You could also argue that the same holds true for a lot of the best modern defenses. The Seahawks rotate corners annually but don't mess with Earl Thomas and when they tried to mess with Chancellor their team suffered for it.

[CanadaSteve]

This CAN'T be true....

Lots of Jets fans think this was a crappy draft and Mac should have been fired immediately.

 

[CTM]

11 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

No doofus, the term Source used was "high impact". I shouldn't have to explain that "impact" happens on the field. Safeties, if you look around the league, are some of the MOST impactful players in the league. Especially in the years that followed the rule changes to place emphasis on the passing game. Since those rule changes, you have consistently seen a trend of safeties playing a bigger role in IMPACTING the quality of defense around the league.

This span of time hasn't been long. So, you haven't seen positional valuation impacted much... yet. However, if you look at the marquee safeties around the league, you will see that there is a direct correlation between "high impact" players in the safety position, and franchises investing more in them. Most notably, Eric Berry just signed the most recent contract for a "high impact" safety, and it happens to be a record setting contract for a safety. So, the positional valuation is slowly catching up to the trends. This is how things are in the NFL though, the league doesn't always adjust to new trends all at once, or quickly. 

All that being said, Source wasn't talking about positional value. If he had, I would have dispelled that notion too... as I just did now.

So, go flick your sub-navel skin flap until you think of the next most stupid thing ever.

So after this flailing, is step 2 going to be to summon Jif to the thread to break it down for me?

[Saul Goodman]

2 hours ago, johnnysd said:

From a talent and value standpoint Adams and Maye are excellent picks. They could both be pro bowl level players. But both skew more towards SS more than FS and are not ball hawks. Even at at Pro Bowl level they are not going to have a huge impact. Our defense will certainly be better, but I will say this:

Let's say instead that the Jets drafter OJ Howard and then Dalvin Cook.

I would state that not only would those picks improve the offense significantly and provide additional security for Hack, but the increase in offense would actually keep the defense off the field enough that those two picks would actually improve defensive performance as much as the two players we selected.

It is why I still think the first 2 selections are an F.

 

 

 

Agreed. Mike Williams and Cook would've been a nice haul as well. 

[Jetster]

Just now, kdels62 said:

You could also argue 

Heres the bottom line in this ridiculous narrative that safeties are not WORTHY. McCourty is the 3rd highest paid PLAYER on the Pats roster in 2017 at almost 11 million dollars a year. This salary from a Coach/GM that rarely pays anyone & trades almost everyone he deems replaceable. So, bitch all you want about drafting 2 safeties but that's how they're board fell & Gilchrist was badly injured, Pryor sucks azz, the secondary gave up the most 20 yard or more receptions in the league & we're gonna go into really the 2nd year of a rebuild after cutting all of the over priced veterans & not delving into free agency.

[Jetster]

2 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

Agreed. Mike Williams and Cook would've been a nice haul as well. 

Mike Williams? In the 1st? Come on! I'm really going out on a limb here but Stewart & Hansen might  be just as good or better down the line. I hate taking 1st round WRs, Pats tried & gave up, go look at the history, at least Belichick learned from his mistakes.

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, CTM said:

So after this flailing, is step 2 going to be to summon Jif to the thread to break it down for me?

I can't find the bat signal weiner gif... 

[Dunnie]

I don't think anyone is disputing that they added talented players. They just spent their first two picks on talented players at a low-impact position. 

sorry bud ... in today's NFL .. safety is huge impact ... just look at seattle


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[varjet]

For kicks and giggles I looked up some articles on the Cardinals defense from 2013-2015.  That was an innovative defense the credit for which went almost completely to Bowles, particularly for how he used and developed players.

As Bum Phillips said about Don Shula, (in English, not Texan), He can take his and beat yours, or he can take yours and beat his.

I don't know whether Bowles is that type of coach.  He obviously has a scheme and needs the players to play the scheme.  I think he as the players now.

I think the defense plays decently, except against teams with super receivers.  They get worn down because the offense can't score points, but most importantly, control the ball.  They need to be looking at power running backs to pick up.

[T0mShane]

Always exciting when they exhume the dessicated corpse of Gil Brandt to levy judgement on draft success and failure.

 

 

[Larz]

shut up !

2 safeties is stupid !

the jets suck !

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, varjet said:

Generally.  There are exceptions.

Curtis Martin was a 3rd round draft pick.   I think he partied alot when younger.  Parcells really reached him and changed him.

I hopefully someone could connect with Dalvin Cook.  The lower you pick someone with issues, the better.

Partying shmartying. He missed his last few games as a soph with a sprained shoulder, then he missed virtually his whole junior season with a sprained ankle, and then skipped his senior season. That's a more injury-plagued college career than virtually everybody in this draft.

[derp]

That's a nice sentiment and I do think the Jets' draft was okay, but that method of grading is arbitrary at best and beyond stupid at worst.

[Dunnie]

shut up !
2 safeties is stupid !
the jets suck !

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[TuscanyTile2]

5 hours ago, Gas2No99 said:

3. New York Jets 

 

Score: 453 points (5 players) 
The skinny: 
The players (points): The Jets' investment in its secondary and pass-catching corps paid off handsomely. 
No. 5: Jamal Adams (146) 
No. 44: Marcus Maye (107) 
No. 71: ArDarius Stewart (80) 
No. 74: Jordan Leggett (77) 
No. 108: Chad Hansen (43)

 

 

I assume they mean the Chad Hansen pick.  Except someone else on this forum described him as "pretty" so not sure that "handsomely" is technically correct.

[Embrace the Suck]

5 hours ago, sciond said:

every time I look somewhere it seems to validate this draft

Third sign of the Apocalypse.