Christian Hackenberg- Foot Mechanics

[win4ever]

Except, by curve, you have to use wishcasting on the Y-axis, and actual performance on the X-axis. You can retroactively build in excuses or advantages for any prospect you want.

You can do it, and it does happen fairly often. Usually, there are somewhat preconceived levels which tell you how to grade stuff.

Using Josh Allen as the example, probably top 3 type pick next year right now. He faces Nebraska last year, throws about 4 interceptions (had a Fitzpatrick-esque 6 or 7 that could be intercepted) and I think most people will see it as an outlier game because his team is just over-matched. The defense is getting pressure without stunts and receivers aren't getting separation. On the other hand, he faces some random school that his team can walk over, where there is no pressure, wide open receivers and running lanes so you have to tick some points away.

The case of Hackenberg is difficult because he's facing good quality teams in the BigTen, but the talent level is so off base, how do you curve it? There just aren't that many examples we can look back to compare.

Someone like Allen or Mahomes this year are going to be graded more for their physical ability than production because the playing field isn't the same. In Mahomes case, it's the system that causes fluctuations. With Hackenberg, I think the grades are hard to project so a team looks at the upside with fixed mechanics, and the downside as is, and took a risk. I wasn't thrilled with the pick because I saw him as a 3rd-4th guy but I'm guessing they believe in fixing his mechanics. If the mechanics are fixed, I think he has first round potential, although that's no sure thing either as we've seen.

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, win4ever said:

 

You can do it, and it does happen fairly often. Usually, there are somewhat preconceived levels which tell you how to grade stuff.

Using Josh Allen as the example, probably top 3 type pick next year right now. He faces Nebraska last year, throws about 4 interceptions (had a Fitzpatrick-esque 6 or 7 that could be intercepted) and I think most people will see it as an outlier game because his team is just over-matched. The defense is getting pressure without stunts and receivers aren't getting separation. On the other hand, he faces some random school that his team can walk over, where there is no pressure, wide open receivers and running lanes so you have to tick some points away.

The case of Hackenberg is difficult because he's facing good quality teams in the BigTen, but the talent level is so off base, how do you curve it? There just aren't that many examples we can look back to compare.

Someone like Allen or Mahomes this year are going to be graded more for their physical ability than production because the playing field isn't the same. In Mahomes case, it's the system that causes fluctuations. With Hackenberg, I think the grades are hard to project so a team looks at the upside with fixed mechanics, and the downside as is, and took a risk. I wasn't thrilled with the pick because I saw him as a 3rd-4th guy but I'm guessing they believe in fixing his mechanics. If the mechanics are fixed, I think he has first round potential, although that's no sure thing either as we've seen.

 

Two things: there's nothing special about Hackenberg physically. He has an above average arm, poor accuracy, and is a statue. Second thing: Why are we acting like "fixing his mechanics" is a thing?

[win4ever]

Two things: there's nothing special about Hackenberg physically. He has an above average arm, poor accuracy, and is a statue. Second thing: Why are we acting like "fixing his mechanics" is a thing?

He does have a strong arm, a good amount of scouting report mention that he can make all the throws. He does have accuracy issues, but that could be attributed to mechanical issues, which in theory could improve if they fix it. He's a drop back passer first, so he's not going to win any races.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/the-jets-are-trying-to-fix-rookie-christian-hackenbergs-throwing-mechanics/amp/

The Jets coaches last year mentioned his mechanics and wanting to change it, so it's feasible that they worked on his mechanics in the off-season.



Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[ID.]

On 5/26/2017 at 10:40 AM, Skeptable said:

You are saying that as a College QB, this is something that he should have learned in Peewee... I don't disagree... but you can lose your mechanics as you grow up...

I think what he has been trying to explain, is the aspect of pointing the foot is foundational.  It is at the core of almost all athletic throwing motions and that is something that should never be "lost".  If it is, that's a huge problem...

[Cyberjet]

Wasn't that the point with him? He wasn't pro ready, had a offense system that didn't prepare him for the pros but had the skillset. Needed work on his mechanics and accuracy. These are fixable problems as opposed to natural talent.

[Hael]

I would say accuracy is the one thing you can't fix in a QB.  It's almost never happened that an innacurate QB became an accurate one.  A few exceptions notwithstanding  it's almost never happened.

Of course that's not the death of a QB either, bc there have been decent qbs that have succeeded with accuracy issues (McNabb, Newton), but then they had other intangibles that made them successful.

[thadude]

13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Two things: there's nothing special about Hackenberg physically. He has an above average arm, poor accuracy, and is a statue. Second thing: Why are we acting like "fixing his mechanics" is a thing?

Jury is still out on Hack until he gets to start at least 5 complete seasons

[Scott Dierking]

14 hours ago, T0mShane said:

"Man, no one would look good playing for that Penn State team. Franklin is horrible. It's a miracle Hackenberg survived at all."

 

Penn State goes 11-3 and finishes 7th in the country the year after Hackenberg leaves.

 

"Yeah well that's different man."

That is just lazy analysis and you know it. You are better than that. Please, T0m, don't start going down the path of least thought.

[Adoni Beast]

Hack has every physical tool needed to succeed in the league. He also has a high football IQ, great work ethic, and overall strong personal character.

His mechanics were shot due to constant pass rush pressure and the beating he took.

Shell shock is a real thing, and if he can't get over that fear of getting leveled, takes his eyes off the secondary, no amount of footwork practice will save him, and he'll be out of the league in a few years.

He's a rare case, who is truly is boom or bust, exactly as he was labeled in the draft. 

For all the impatient folk, his best shot was sitting year 1, and taking his time having every nuance of this new system understood before throwing him out there. Best way to get rid the ball quick is to master your playbook first. Id say he sits til mid season, gets 8 games this year, and next year to truly gauge him. 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Scott Dierking said:

That is just lazy analysis and you know it. You are better than that. Please, T0m, don't start going down the path of least thought.

My friend, you can't claim the team was D-III quality in 2015, but magically transformed into the 7th ranked team in the country a year later. We all want Hackenberg to succeed for obvious reasons, but the defenses of him have gone deep into the absurd, and I was the guy defending Matt Leinart until he was out of the league.

[T0mShane]

Just now, Adoni Beast said:

Hack has every physical tool needed to succeed in the league. He also has a high football IQ, great work ethic, and overall strong personal character.

His mechanics were shot due to constant pass rush pressure and the beating he took.

Shell shock is a real thing, and if he can't get over that fear of getting leveled, takes his eyes off the secondary, no amount of footwork practice will save him, and he'll be out of the league in a few years.

He's a rare case, who is truly is boom or bust, exactly as he was labeled in the draft. 

For all the impatient folk, his best shot was sitting year 1, and taking his time having every nuance of this new system understood before throwing him out there. Best way to get rid the ball quick is to master your playbook first. Id say he sits til mid season, gets 8 games this year, and next year to truly gauge him. 

How do you know he has a high football IQ and strong personal character?

[Scott Dierking]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

My friend, you can't claim the team was D-III quality in 2015, but magically transformed into the 7th ranked team in the country a year later. We all want Hackenberg to succeed for obvious reasons, but the defenses of him have gone deep into the absurd, and I was the guy defending Matt Leinart until he was out of the league.

OK then, you give me your analysis of the 2015 vs 2016 PSU teams. I will be interested. 

[Adoni Beast]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

How do you know he has a high football IQ and strong personal character?

O'brien said he picked up and mastered his offense as fast as Brady in his freshman season, and by all other accounts people have said he very good with x's and o's.

Personal character, he coukd have easily bailed on Penn State with the sanctions and after O'brien left. Alabama wanted him. He could have won a couple national championships with an NFL oline and had the easy life. But he stuck with his home state school during a tough stretch. To me, it wouldn't have shown low character if he left. But, definitely shows good character that he stuck it out. 

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

OK then, you give me your analysis of the 2015 vs 2016 PSU teams. I will be interested. 

I'm not the one saying that the 2015 PSU Nittany Lions were the Chattanooga Community College Red Vipers.

[Scott Dierking]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I'm not the one saying that the 2015 PSU Nittany Lions were the Chattanooga Community College Red Vipers.

I have never said that. What I gave you was a an analysis of how their offensive line disintegrated due to recruiting restrictions and injuries.

If you have something to counter that, have at it.

Or, I am to assume you think Trace Mcsorley is some huge prospect that is a program changer. Another big hint for you is to look at the development of Saquon Barkley had in 2016. He is a Heisman candidate, and will be atop 10 pick next draft.

But, you knew all those things already

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I have never said that. What I gave you was a an analysis of how their offensive line disintegrated due to recruiting restrictions and injuries.

If you have something to counter that, have at it.

Or, I am to assume you think Trace Mcsorley is some huge prospect that is a program changer. Another big hint for you is to look at the development of Saquon Barkley had in 2016. He is a Heisman candidate, and will be atop 10 pick next draft.

But, you knew all those things already

Trace McSorley not being an NFL prospect worsens your argument, my homey. 

[Scott Dierking]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Trace McSorley not being an NFL prospect worsens your argument, my homey. 

You are the one that thinks the equation of ( -CH + TM = top 10 ranking), not me. 

That would be a fool's folly, without final effort of actual analysis. But, that is the impression you are leaving me. I asked you for an honest evaluation, and all I am left with so far is lazy induction.

[dbatesman]

Can't wait for six months from now, when we get to find out who the Jets' version of Trace McSorley is.

[Scott Dierking]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

Can't wait for six months from now, when we get to find out who the Jets' version of Trace McSorley is.

Totes Magotes.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

You are the one that thinks the equation of ( -CH + TM = top 10 ranking), not me. 

That would be a fool's folly, without final effort of actual analysis. But, that is the impression you are leaving me. I asked you for an honest evaluation, and all I am left with so far is lazy induction.

I've deduced that a wide majority of the excuses you've levied for Hackenberg seem to have been disqualified by the fact the team was in the top ten a few months after Hackenberg left. Just say that Hackenberg has some talent, you have high hopes, and that we should disregard almost everything about Hackenberg's history other than parts of a freshman season where it looked like he had an NFL future. There's nothing wrong with that. 

[Scott Dierking]

7 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I've deduced that a wide majority of the excuses you've levied for Hackenberg seem to have been disqualified by the fact the team was in the top ten a few months after Hackenberg left. Just say that Hackenberg has some talent, you have high hopes, and that we should disregard almost everything about Hackenberg's history other than parts of a freshman season where it looked like he had an NFL future. There's nothing wrong with that. 

I have repeatedly said that I have no idea whether Hack will make it in the NFL. I do feel that there are skills and intangibles that are interesting, and I do have some vested interest because I watched him for 3 years. I also do hope the Jets catch lightning in a bottle, which I do not believe you actually have interest in.

What I have offered are not "excuses", but more so the reality that was playing football in the PSU program. It was a difficult situation at best. Are there worse atrocities in life, or sport? Of course. But rather than knee-jerk reactionary analysis, I prefer to try and understand what peripherals may affect performance. If you choose to call them excuses, so be it.

And you have cat. Nothing wrong with that

 

[NoBowles]

34 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Trace McSorley not being an NFL prospect worsens your argument, my homey. 

Why? The NFL game is completely different than the college game. Its why Tebow was one of the all time greats in college, and worthless in the NFL. 

[NoBowles]

@dbatesman and @T0mShane absolutely need Maccagnan and Hackenberg to fail, hell, throw @Sperm Edwards into that mix as well. If Hackenberg was ever successful, they'd need new screen names. Although I give them all credit, they were so blatantly wrong about Idzik, yet they somehow have still convinced themselves they are football geniuses who know better then the rest of us mere mortal Jets fans. It takes a special brand of humility to keep on keepin on like that.

[T0mShane]

26 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

 

And you have cat. Nothing wrong with that

 

You are one of the low-key most vicious persons on the internet, sir.

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

@dbatesman and @T0mShane absolutely need Maccagnan and Hackenberg to fail, hell, throw @Sperm Edwards into that mix as well. If Hackenberg was ever successful, they'd need new screen names. Although I give them all credit, they were so blatantly wrong about Idzik, yet they somehow have still convinced themselves they are football geniuses who know better then the rest of us mere mortal Jets fans. It takes a special brand of humility to keep on keepin on like that.

This is a selfie of me, dbatesman, and Sperm Edwards in our Negativity Groupthink Pool.

 

[NoBowles]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

This is a selfie of me, dbatesman, and Sperm Edwards in our Negativity Groupthink Pool.

 

Change negativity to agenda, and I'd agree. It's not about negativity at all.

[nicg4360]

It's obvious there has been much invested time in trashing our 2nd round pick. While reading this thread it is quite clear there are some that are quite convinced that hell or high water Hack is never going to amount to anything. The others which I am one of as well are HOPEFUL he can turn it around and fully understand he needs work and COULD fail. Not saying he can be our QB but HE IS A JET. As a fan I am supporting a player on our roster. MANY players not necessarily QBs come onto NFL rosters with question marks and need coaching to develop into well rounded players. These players come and go but I've never seen a player takes over the coals like Hackenberg without even getting some actual game experience with sometime playing with the first team. Seriously what has this guy done to some of these posters....did he shoot your dog? Wishing him out of the league yea that's great good stuff. Hackenberg has had good mechanics, getting back to that on a consistent basis is what's involved here....he is not learning it from scratch.
Let me repeat I am not sure he is the answer. He may just end up being a backup for whoever we draft next year. But hey he may be able to be that quality backup every team would like to have. If that's what it is that's what it is and that's not a bad thing in the end.

Sent from my Moto Z using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jimmy 2 Times]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

My friend, you can't claim the team was D-III quality in 2015, but magically transformed into the 7th ranked team in the country a year later. We all want Hackenberg to succeed for obvious reasons, but the defenses of him have gone deep into the absurd, and I was the guy defending Matt Leinart until he was out of the league.

In 2014 Penn St had FOUR (3 when Dieffenbach returned from injury later in the year) first year starters on the O-line including converted defensive players.

In 2015 Penn St lost it's top two linemen, Dieffenbach and Smith, and had a couple red shirt players getting their feet wet with playing time.

In 2016 Penn St hired a new o-line coach and ALL those first year starters have now been together for a few seasons and were poised to breakout as upperclassmen.  It's kind of crazy how much a kid can improve from freshman to junior/senior years.

 

So the growing pains suffered through the Hack years led to the Rose Bowl year.

[NoBowles]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

In 2014 Penn St had FOUR (3 when Dieffenbach returned from injury later in the year) first year starters on the O-line including converted defensive players.

In 2015 Penn St lost it's top two linemen, Dieffenbach and Smith, and had a couple red shirt players getting their feet wet with playing time.

In 2016 Penn St hired a new o-line coach and ALL those first year starters have now been together for a few seasons and were poised to breakout as upperclassmen.  It's kind of crazy how much a kid can improve from freshman to junior/senior years.

 

So the growing pains suffered through the Hack years led to the Rose Bowl year.

Dont let facts get in the way of a good agenda!!

[T0mShane]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

In 2014 Penn St had FOUR (3 when Dieffenbach returned from injury later in the year) first year starters on the O-line including converted defensive players.

In 2015 Penn St lost it's top two linemen, Dieffenbach and Smith, and had a couple red shirt players getting their feet wet with playing time.

In 2016 Penn St hired a new o-line coach and ALL those first year starters have now been together for a few seasons and were poised to breakout as upperclassmen.  It's kind of crazy how much a kid can improve from freshman to junior/senior years.

 

So the growing pains suffered through the Hack years led to the Rose Bowl year.

Is this the New Testament version or...

[JoJoTownsell1]

21 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

In 2014 Penn St had FOUR (3 when Dieffenbach returned from injury later in the year) first year starters on the O-line including converted defensive players.

In 2015 Penn St lost it's top two linemen, Dieffenbach and Smith, and had a couple red shirt players getting their feet wet with playing time.

In 2016 Penn St hired a new o-line coach and ALL those first year starters have now been together for a few seasons and were poised to breakout as upperclassmen.  It's kind of crazy how much a kid can improve from freshman to junior/senior years.

 

So the growing pains suffered through the Hack years led to the Rose Bowl year.

Tomshane has an agenda. He refuses to acknowledge sound arguments like the one you presented. PSU was a clusterf*ck thanks to the NCAA's punishments. Not to mention Mcsorley is a far more mobile QB that has also had much better Oline play. His ability to scramble helped him succeed where Hack, a pure pocket passer struggled. 

The biggest mistake Hack made was being loyal to PSU and their fans and staying on board when he was given a "get out of jail free card" by the NCAA. Instead, he thought he could will his way to success despite the lack of talent around him. Clearly, it was a mistake for his career. But in an era of selfish players and instagram/snapchatters Hack is a legit high character guy that also possess all the tools an NFL QB needs. 

Based on what people saw of him as a freshman and his talent he was still coveted by many NFL teams. Not sure I would have reached for him in the 2nd, but we saw talented, yet unproven and flawed QBs get drafted in the 1st/2nd round every year (see guys like Mahomes/Kizer this year). So if the jets really loved his talent then I don't mind the selection. 

[Fantasy Island]

[glenn31]

It's almost like that quote: "If a debate is needed whether or not a guy is a HOFer, chances are he ain't." This can absolutely be applied to franchise QBs and to a lesser extent even starting QBs, but we're having a friggin debate over whether this kid can gain or (regain) his proper fundamental mechanics JUST to compete for a future on this QB starved team. Am I the only one who finds this utterly insane???

Call me negative, call me SOJF, I don't care, but if this is what we're debating about a 2nd round pick heading into year two, no way in hell am I betting that we get to the next level of debates about this kid.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Is this the New Testament version or...

You wanted to know how a line can improve dramatically in a year.  

Those inexperienced underclassmen became experienced upperclassmen.

[JetFaninMI]

On 5/27/2017 at 10:42 AM, Tinstar said:

"You have to see a thing before you see the thing or you never will see the thing" . Those are the wise words someone once told me that I now tell you .  One ,might ask how you can see something without actually seeing it . The reply would be by Faith, because "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not  seen" . So you see beloved, since me being a Jet fan, hope for the best for my Jets, I choose to see all those things by Faith .

I  offer you this and all it cost is for you to change your way of thinking .   

I have faith....just not in Mac or Bowles. Change my way of thinking? On the Jets current regime? Sorry but until I actually see progress I will be skeptical. To blindly follow a regime that has crapped its pants both on the field and off is not Faith its lunacy. Here's an old saying for you my friend: "Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me."