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Maccagnan: 5 Traded Picks and 5 Contracts


varjet

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9 hours ago, varjet said:

Over the last 3 offseasons, Mac has:

  • Traded 5 Draft Picks for:  Fitz, Marshall, Posey, Stacy and Clady.  The first 2 helped the initial 10 win no playoff season.  None contributed anything after that.  Those draft picks could have been contributing to the Jets today.
  • Signed 5 Low Value/High Cost Contracts:  Revis, Fitz (2), Cromartie, Skrine and Gilcrist.   That money could have been used for other players.

We can go over the Draft Picks in another post, but these 10 moves are one of the principle reasons the Jets roster is so poor.

Are you saying there is something wrong with this?

And does this mean we cant discuss the continue trade backs for 6th and 7th round picks in this current draft? 

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1 hour ago, MDL_JET said:

Well that's what happens when you try to do a competitive rebuild that the owner insists on doing every couple years. It got us 10 wins, a fun little season and a lesson learned. Now they're on a smarter path and hopefully continue to stay on it. 

 

Let's see if the Front Office survives this season.   

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10 hours ago, varjet said:

Over the last 3 offseasons, Mac has:

  • Traded 5 Draft Picks for:  Fitz, Marshall, Posey, Stacy and Clady.  The first 2 helped the initial 10 win no playoff season.  None contributed anything after that.  Those draft picks could have been contributing to the Jets today.
  • Signed 5 Low Value/High Cost Contracts:  Revis, Fitz (2), Cromartie, Skrine and Gilcrist.   That money could have been used for other players.

We can go over the Draft Picks in another post, but these 10 moves are one of the principle reasons the Jets roster is so poor.

You're forgetting the draft picks for the UFAs he picked up (McLendon and Forte/Powell) when he first knew he was letting go of his own qualifying UFAs.

Would have been a full 4 surrendered draft picks, if not for getting "lucky" that his idiotic pickup of UFA Jarvis Jenkins was so bad he could rationalize cutting him midseason after guaranteeing him $3m.

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47 minutes ago, JiF said:

Are you saying there is something wrong with this?

And does this mean we cant discuss the continue trade backs for 6th and 7th round picks in this current draft? 

You can't complain about those lost picks. Don't you realize lower-half draft picks are meaningless and useless? 

That's why we just traded back with virtually every Jets pick from round 3 onward. To pick up valueless draft picks. Duh.

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2 hours ago, jamesr said:

Love how that screenshot cuts off  2008 after Gholston ... it's almost as if it's saying "need I say more?". :D 

And 2011 was a pretty good year. ;-) 

I agree. Mangini was better than both Idzik and Tannenbaum.

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52 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Who was that free agent CB that Idzik wouldn't spring for that got Rex all pissed off so he started Antonio Allen at CB out of spite? 

Drogers cromartie

Our prize off season Cb that year was Dmitrius Patterson?

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2 hours ago, AFJF said:

People like to knock that setup, but in all reality, without knowing exactly what's being said between Woody and Mac and Woody and Bowles when they do meet, it's pretty senseless.

 

 

Fair, but at the same time, who has final say on personnel decisions? Mac, Bowles, Woody? We have heard more than enough quotes from Bowles to make it clear he has a huge say in personnel decisions, and has gotten a lot of what he has wanted. So does Mac report to Bowles? What if those personnel moves suck, does Bowles get fired and Mac stays? Are they both tied at the hip? I am strongly of the opinion that you need a power structure that has one person clearly accountable. They of course would take input from others in the organization, but IMO this puts too much ambiguity in place, which IMO is EXACTLY what Woody wants. So if he tells the GM to go get Tebow, and it flops, he can absolve himself. If he tells the GM to go get Revis, and it fails, he can absolve himself. If he tells the GM to try to win now, even with a crappy roster, and it fails, he can absolve himself. I have no proof Woody is doing these things, but I have reasons to believe he has. I don't think its an accident that Woody sets up these type of power structures at all, I think its intentional so that when he meddles, he cannot be blamed. And fine, an owner wants to meddle, they own the team, they can do what they want, but when it fails, we should be able to point to the right person when they fail, as fans of the team.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Any GM that needed to learn the lesson that letting a 33 year old journeyman hold you hostage for a complete offseason and then handing him $12M for one season probably got the job too soon.  It would be nice to think that he learned his lesson, but giving $6M to a 37 year old journeyman QB does not give me a huge amount of hope. 

omg so you'd rather have idzik back is what your saying smdh

- Glenn, probably.

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2 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I'm merely an amateur theorist on argumentation, but I do believe it is possible to say that both Idzik and Maccagnan sucked. You don't have to pick one or the other and frame it as a black or white issue. It's ok.

GET HIM, BOYS

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3 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Maccagnan has drafted one (1) good player. Keep ******* that chicken.

Come on, he has had only 2 drafts. Still early to call. We won't discuss most recent draft since they have not played yet, but Adams has been very impressive early.

Leonard Williams- stud already made pro bowl 

devin smith- bust, but had a lot of injuries too

Mauldin- down year last yr, could be rotational player. Let's see how he does this yr

petty- if he turns out to be decent back-up, ok pick

harrison-bust

simon-has flashed, I think he may end up starting honestly. Could be a gem.

Lee- undersized, possible head case. Let's see how he does this yr

hack- improving, we will see him this yr.

jenkins- starter, solid pick 

Burris- will probably be starter this yr

shell- will likely be starter, looked decent last yr

edwards- punter, needs to get better

peake- will see this yr, has potential.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Any GM that needed to learn the lesson that letting a 33 year old journeyman hold you hostage for a complete offseason and then handing him $12M for one season probably got the job too soon.  It would be nice to think that he learned his lesson, but giving $6M to a 37 year old journeyman QB does not give me a huge amount of hope. 

Our Gm should be given the Nobel football prize for NOT caving into the QB.

- The Qb almost got the team into he playoffs and won 10 game setting team records and was playing on a prrove it deal.

- Other teams in the league were setting totally idiotic precedence's for QB salaries (Chase fing Daniel 7 million, Brock fing Oswiler 16 million)

- Getting your 10 win starter back at 12 million and being able to get away from him the next year when he bombed was inspired gming.

Mac has made some bad moves and bad drafts but the Qb work last year was good, not bad if you look at it logically and not as hurr durr, i had fitzpatick.

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3 minutes ago, Barkus said:

Come on, he has had only 2 drafts. Still early to call. We won't discuss most recent draft since they have not played yet, but Adams has been very impressive early.

Leonard Williams- stud already made pro bowl 

devin smith- bust, but had a lot of injuries too

Mauldin- down year last yr, could be rotational player. Let's see how he does this yr

petty- if he turns out to be decent back-up, ok pick

harrison-bust

simon-has flashed, I think he may end up starting honestly. Could be a gem.

Lee- undersized, possible head case. Let's see how he does this yr

hack- improving, we will see him this yr.

jenkins- starter, solid pick 

Burris- will probably be starter this yr

shell- will likely be starter, looked decent last yr

edwards- punter, needs to get better

peake- will see this yr, has potential.

No big issue with your comments on most of the players however.

Premium NFL positions:

QB, outside pass rusher, LT, offensive weapon (#1 Wr or RB), CB

Three drafts and we have nothing to show for premium positions.

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I will follow up my lessons learned post with another.  Why did they only sign McCown for one year?  I know that in theory, it is nice to say we are not on the hook in 2018, but hear me out.  Remember when we had Fitzpatrick?  Everybody said: “Well, it’s only for one year.”  Then he played well and we had to deal with his FA nonsense.  If they had renegotiated him things would have been much better. 

Sign McCown at $12M for 2 and you have him locked up next year if he is great.  Guarantee 2017 and not 2018.  They are not going to cut him in 2017 anyway.  It would give them some wiggle room if they want to monkey with his contract, but that doesn’t matter.  Then you have him for 2017 and you have the option for 2018 without all the Fitzmagic-styled drama.

I hear the usual suspects with the usual complaints:  Why would he sign that?  Why the **** wouldn’t he?  $6M is way more than he was getting elsewhere and without it he wouldn’t be starting anywhere and would have no shot at a bigger pay day in 2018.  He is like 47.  That deal would be comparable to Hoyer with a smaller guarantee.  Hoyer is in the similar tier, but considerably better and 6 years younger.  Why would we want him back in 2018?  Odds are we will.   If he plays great, they will want him back and won’t likely be able to draft a QB stud.  If the team tanks and picks Darnold, they will probably want a vet around too – if anything just to help with acclimation to the pro game/film/practice.  About the only scenario they won’t want a vet is if Hackenberg or Petty kill it and the other looks like a viable back up.  Want to lay the odds on that?

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20 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Our Gm should be given the Nobel football prize for NOT caving into the QB.

- The Qb almost got the team into he playoffs and won 10 game setting team records and was playing on a prrove it deal.

- Other teams in the league were setting totally idiotic precedence's for QB salaries (Chase fing Daniel 7 million, Brock fing Oswiler 16 million)

- Getting your 10 win starter back at 12 million and being able to get away from him the next year when he bombed was inspired gming.

Mac has made some bad moves and bad drafts but the Qb work last year was good, not bad if you look at it logically and not as hurr durr, i had fitzpatick.

Ryan Fitzpatrick at over $10M per was pure insanity by any measure.  In fact, I think I said more than $8M per would be insane in the middle of his run in 2015 when I suggested redoing his deal.  Maccagnan ******* caved in spades and worse, he waited until camp was underway.  The whole thing was handled horribly, financially, optically and from a timing for the "best team" standpoint.

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10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Ryan Fitzpatrick at over $10M per was pure insanity by any measure.  In fact, I think I said more than $8M per would be insane in the middle of his run in 2015 when I suggested redoing his deal.  Maccagnan ******* caved in spades and worse, he waited until camp was underway.  The whole thing was handled horribly, financially, optically and from a timing for the "best team" standpoint.

SOJF

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46 minutes ago, Barkus said:

Come on, he has had only 2 drafts. Still early to call. We won't discuss most recent draft since they have not played yet, but Adams has been very impressive early.

Leonard Williams- stud already made pro bowl 

devin smith- bust, but had a lot of injuries too

Mauldin- down year last yr, could be rotational player. Let's see how he does this yr

petty- if he turns out to be decent back-up, ok pick

harrison-bust

simon-has flashed, I think he may end up starting honestly. Could be a gem.

Lee- undersized, possible head case. Let's see how he does this yr

hack- improving, we will see him this yr.

jenkins- starter, solid pick 

Burris- will probably be starter this yr

shell- will likely be starter, looked decent last yr

edwards- punter, needs to get better

peake- will see this yr, has potential.

I think this is a great summary of Mac's Drafts 1 and 2.

I think the short answer is that Mac's Year 1 Strategy basically filled seats at the cost of squandered draft picks and expensive contracts.  it won him Executive of the Year.  With the exception of Leo, the rest of his 1st draft was not super.  His 2nd draft can be much better at the bottom.  

So he did a bunch of things that were quasi-short term effective but set the team back in the long term.  Now they are trying to build for the longer term.

One could argue that the Jets should finish cutting the veterans (McClendon (keep Pennel/Johnson/Simon) and Skrine (keep rookies, Roberts, M Williams, even MacDougal).

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12 hours ago, Jet9 said:

Having sh*t drafts for multiple years before Macc is the reason our roster is so poor. He also had to spend money his first year. I know what everyone is going to say that he should have signed them all to one-year deals. That works in Madden, but not with actual humans who have a say one what contracts they sign. But for what it's worth, Macc will never get a fair assessment around these parts. Not a fan of people sh*tting on the guy for every single move. 

No we don't sh*t over his every move just 9/10ths of his sh*tty moves. Maybe Amazon rescues us. They just bought out Whole Foods. The NY Amazon Jets.

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2 hours ago, NoBowles said:

Fair, but at the same time, who has final say on personnel decisions? Mac, Bowles, Woody? We have heard more than enough quotes from Bowles to make it clear he has a huge say in personnel decisions, and has gotten a lot of what he has wanted. So does Mac report to Bowles? What if those personnel moves suck, does Bowles get fired and Mac stays? Are they both tied at the hip? I am strongly of the opinion that you need a power structure that has one person clearly accountable. They of course would take input from others in the organization, but IMO this puts too much ambiguity in place, which IMO is EXACTLY what Woody wants. So if he tells the GM to go get Tebow, and it flops, he can absolve himself. If he tells the GM to go get Revis, and it fails, he can absolve himself. If he tells the GM to try to win now, even with a crappy roster, and it fails, he can absolve himself. I have no proof Woody is doing these things, but I have reasons to believe he has. I don't think its an accident that Woody sets up these type of power structures at all, I think its intentional so that when he meddles, he cannot be blamed. And fine, an owner wants to meddle, they own the team, they can do what they want, but when it fails, we should be able to point to the right person when they fail, as fans of the team.

in a world where fictions Trumps facts...cool story...

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

No big issue with your comments on most of the players however.

Premium NFL positions:

QB, outside pass rusher, LT, offensive weapon (#1 Wr or RB), CB

Three drafts and we have nothing to show for premium positions.

Well not NOTHING to show for 4 of five of these, just LT. And Let me tell you, we have basically never been in line for a decent LT in the draft during Mac's time here. I've wanted one for years and I have to admit our timing is laughably bad when it comes to getting a worthwhile one. Closest we came might have been 2016, otherwise the value just wasn't there.

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13 hours ago, varjet said:

Over the last 3 offseasons, Mac has:

  • Traded 5 Draft Picks for:  Fitz, Marshall, Posey, Stacy and Clady.  The first 2 helped the initial 10 win no playoff season.  None contributed anything after that.  Those draft picks could have been contributing to the Jets today.
  • Signed 5 Low Value/High Cost Contracts:  Revis, Fitz (2), Cromartie, Skrine and Gilcrist.   That money could have been used for other players.

We can go over the Draft Picks in another post, but these 10 moves are one of the principle reasons the Jets roster is so poor.

Macc is the Isiah Thomas of the NFL

 

I take that back.  At least Isiah made the playoffs his first season as GM 

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I will follow up my lessons learned post with another.  Why did they only sign McCown for one year?  I know that in theory, it is nice to say we are not on the hook in 2018, but hear me out.  Remember when we had Fitzpatrick?  Everybody said: “Well, it’s only for one year.”  Then he played well and we had to deal with his FA nonsense.  If they had renegotiated him things would have been much better. 

Sign McCown at $12M for 2 and you have him locked up next year if he is great. 

See, that's where you lost me.  McCown isn't here to have a Fitz-like renaissance.  Nobody expects it or even considers it a possibility.  He's here to keep the NLF from docking us draft picks for running TOO obvious a tank-job.  You could say he's a beard but that would be confusing with the last guy I suppose.  There is no reason, at age 39, he should be on our roster in 2018 at any price.

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

See, that's where you lost me.  McCown isn't here to have a Fitz-like renaissance.  Nobody expects it or even considers it a possibility.  He's here to keep the NLF from docking us draft picks for running TOO obvious a tank-job.  You could say he's a beard but that would be confusing with the last guy I suppose.  There is no reason, at age 39, he should be on our roster in 2018 at any price.

You'll see.   I can understand disagreement, but I fleshed out my reasons pretty well.  More importantly, can you tell me how an additional non-guaranteed year would hurt?  I guess maybe if you think he is going to start all year and then you'd have to cut him. 

 

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

You'll see.   I can understand disagreement, but I fleshed out my reasons pretty well.  More importantly, can you tell me how an additional non-guaranteed year would hurt?  I guess maybe if you think he is going to start all year and then you'd have to cut him. 

TANSTAAFL (Heinlen fans will recognize this)

I presume that the option on 2018 would have cost more in 2017.  Maybe just another $2MM or so, but you don't get that second year option for free.  If it's non-guaranteed, then the agent asks for more in year 1.  People are already moaning about the $6MM for him so it would only have been worse.  And mainly, I think that lack of even a club option indicates how unlikely the Jets think it is he'll be around a second year.  

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25 minutes ago, nycdan said:

TANSTAAFL (Heinlen fans will recognize this)

I presume that the option on 2018 would have cost more in 2017.  Maybe just another $2MM or so, but you don't get that second year option for free.  If it's non-guaranteed, then the agent asks for more in year 1.  People are already moaning about the $6MM for him so it would only have been worse.  And mainly, I think that lack of even a club option indicates how unlikely the Jets think it is he'll be around a second year.  

We can agree to disagree, but I reiterate that I'm not sure why it had to cost more.  When you grossly overpay a guy for one year, he is generally happy to take it for two.  See Cromartie, Antonio circa 2015.

FWIW, it is obvious that there is such a thing as a free lunch and McCown, like Fitzpatrick before him, is eating on our dime. 

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2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

We can agree to disagree, but I reiterate that I'm not sure why it had to cost more.  When you grossly overpay a guy for one year, he is generally happy to take it for two.  See Cromartie, Antonio circa 2015.

Fair enough and I'm not sure either of us is really pounding the table on this issue anyway :)

In general, since a club option has value to the club and negative value to the player (he really gets no benefit from it since it's entirely the club's choice) it should cost the club something.  If the agent for McCown was willing to take $6MM for one year, he should ask for more for the same with the addition of a one-year club option.  Maybe not $2MM but more than nothing.  Sometimes what you see instead is a $1MM or so payment to the player if he is released the following year.  It amounts to much the same.  

Besides, if all we are looking to do is plug in a JAG QB to hold the fort for a year while we season a new draft pick, there will be a dozen guys like that.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2018/quarterback/

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Fair enough and I'm not sure either of us is really pounding the table on this issue anyway :)

In general, since a club option has value to the club and negative value to the player (he really gets no benefit from it since it's entirely the club's choice) it should cost the club something.  If the agent for McCown was willing to take $6MM for one year, he should ask for more for the same with the addition of a one-year club option.  Maybe not $2MM but more than nothing.  Sometimes what you see instead is a $1MM or so payment to the player if he is released the following year.  It amounts to much the same.  

Besides, if all we are looking to do is plug in a JAG QB to hold the fort for a year while we season a new draft pick, there will be a dozen guys like that.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2018/quarterback/

I used up all my table pounding on Russell Wilson. 

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9 hours ago, Jetdawgg said:

The re-signing of Futz was the worst issue for 2016. After Futz held out past May the Jets should have moved on. I made that statement then like a few others here did. No team should go to OTA's without knowing who the QB is. That move alone split the locker room, set back the development of three younger QB's who by the way were all NYJ draft picks, hurt the vertical passing game and was made even worse by the terms of the contract.

A total fail

in hindsight i agree that signing fitz so late was a bad move.  they should have told him to take a hike and start geno.  but at the same time most were still thinking the offense could perform as well or better than 2015.  picking hack in the 2nd round just about proves that the underlying plan was to have fitz as the starter for 2016 and 2017 with petty or hack starting this season.  plans don't always works out as well as people want.

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3 minutes ago, rangerous said:

in hindsight i agree that signing fitz so late was a bad move.  they should have told him to take a hike and start geno.  but at the same time most were still thinking the offense could perform as well or better than 2015.  picking hack in the 2nd round just about proves that the underlying plan was to have fitz as the starter for 2016 and 2017 with petty or hack starting this season.  plans don't always works out as well as people want.

Following the herd is not necessarily a good thing

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16 hours ago, MTJ06 said:

1) we traded a conditional 7 th that could become a 6 th for Fitz. That pick was traded to Atlanta who drafted guard Wes Schweitzer.

2) we traded our 5 th to Chicago ( Adrian Amos) for Brandon Marshall and a seventh rounder. We then traded the 7 th rounder for Stacy. So we traded a fifth rounder for Marshall and stacy.

3) We've traded our 3rd (70th) for HOU's 3rd (82), 5th (152), 7th (229) and WR DeVier Posey.

I guess you forgot to mention all the other picks we got in return along with posey...

with the 70 th pick Houston got Jalen Strong

we got

82) Lorenzo Mauldin

152) Jarvis Harrison

229) used to trade up for Petty

and posey

4) we traded a fifth rounder for Clady and a seventh.

Denver traded our 5 th to ten. Who drafted leshaun sims.

we got Clady

and drafted Lachlan Edwards.

 

we definitely got more than what was stated in these trades. The principal reason the Jets roster is so poor was terrible drafting from 2012-2014, not these trades.

 

 

Didn't you read? we're supposed to discuss the draft picks in a DIFFERENT thread. 

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