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Vince Young wonders why Ryan Fitzpatrick playing but not him


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1 hour ago, NoBowles said:

You do realize its POSSIBLE to think that Fitzpatrick's 2015 season was better than Favre's 2009 season, and still not think that Fitzpatrick could even sniff Favre's jock as a QB, right?

As I said in my post you can not compare the years fully because the make up of the teams were dramatically different..  

The issue was who was the better QB even as an aged vetern and whom should a team take and I stand by what I said including 2015 for Fitz; that I would take Fare over Fitz today let alone 2015.  

IMO anyone one who would take Fitz over Farve for any year at all based upon 2015 statistics alone is not being objective or is simply being disingenuous.

Folks act like Fitz was Joe Montana in 2015 when we didn't even make the playoffs as a direct result of his awful play; and Marshall and Decker weren't on the field, making Fitz poor passes often look respectable.

Look I was as happy as anybody that Fitz played fairly well for us in 2015, I lived in Buffalo and wanted the Jets to pick him up when they did, but to compare Fitz to Farve one of the greatest QBs in NFL history is preposterous to me.

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2 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

As I said in my post you can not compare the years fully because the make up of the teams were dramatically different..  

The issue was who was the better QB even as an aged vetern and whom should a team take and I stand by what I said including 2015 for Fitz; that I would take Fare over Fitz today let alone 2015.  

IMO anyone one who would take Fitz over Farve for any year at all based upon 2015 statistics alone is not being objective or is simply being disingenuous.

Folks act like Fitz was Joe Montana in 2015 when we didn't even make the playoffs as a direct result of his awful play; and Marshall and Decker weren't on the field, making Fitz poor passes often look respectable.

Look I was as happy as anybody that Fitz played fairly well for us in 2015, I lived in Buffalo and wanted the Jets to pick him up when they did, but to compare Fitz to Farve one of the greatest QBs in NFL history is preposterous to me.

Favre was absolutely atrocious in his one year here, and never wanted to be here. Fitz sucks, but the end of Favre's year here was as bad of QB play as Ive ever seen, and that says a lot as a Jets fan with the QB's we have had.

Nobody in this thread said anything about taking Favre over Fitz, but Fitz had a far better year than Favre did, regardless of system or weapons around him.

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3 hours ago, phill1c said:

Wow, you enjoyed a year where the jets didn't make the playoffs? Where Fitzpatrick had--if memory serves--FOUR straight poor performances? Where he choked away a playoff berth with three 4th-quarter INTs?

I sure didn't. It was the worst scenario: he plays bad enough to miss the playoffs and looks like sh!t for most to the time but good enough to be fools gold and take time away from true rebuilding and QB talent evaluation.

It appears Long Suffering Jets Fan enjoys suffering...

Yeah, you're right it wasn't all enjoyable, but up until the last game it was.  In the final analysis is was disappointing, particularly the following year when we completely fell apart.

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7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There's no evidence the team saw Favre purely as a 1-year rental.

  1. Favre "retired" on or about February 11th
  2. They drafted Sanchez on April 25th
  3. They released Favre April 29th

If they knew he was just a 1-year rental they'd have officially released him in February. Retaining his rights became impossible after trading up for Sanchez, because under the old CBA a top-5 pick QB got a $50-60m rookie contract when easily-reached incentives were factored in. There wasn't realistic room for both on the roster (certainly not the way Tannenbaum spent).

Also, enjoyment of 2015's moderate success aside, Fitzpatrick had zero "great" years. If one of the league's actually-great QBs had Fitzpatrick's 2015 season, it'd have been considered an off-year not a great one. 

In the final analysis he was a one year rental, but I agree I don't think the Jets went into the transaction with that thought. 

3905 yards with 31 TDs and 15 INTs is a solid year.  After a 4 and 12 previous season however perhaps it felt alot better than it actually was.  For a little while it seemed like we were going somewhere, but clearly we never got there. 

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12 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

In the final analysis he was a one year rental, but I agree I don't think the Jets went into the transaction with that thought. 

3905 yards with 31 TDs and 15 INTs is a solid year.  After a 4 and 12 previous season however perhaps it felt alot better than it actually was.  For a little while it seemed like we were going somewhere, but clearly we never got there. 

You're also leaving out the sub-60% completion percentage, likely because it isn't favorable to him. Also those stats ignore all the passes he threw right at defenders and were simply dropped by stupid luck: he averaged just over 1 every other game, on top of the 15 picks they didn't just happen to drop. It further leaves out the 4 games he blew our chances of victory with his multiple, late-game turnovers (Philadelphia, Houston, and Buffalo #2 with the season on the line), and/or sub-50% CR games throughout (Buffalo #1). Not to mention unnecessarily getting himself injured vs Oakland on what would be a stupid mistake even for a rookie.

All this was during an impossibly-favorable schedule that season in which we faced only 1 playoff team without multiple, significant injuries at our matchup. A season-long fortune for which only a fool would expect any serious likelihood of repetition. He also gets credit, indirectly, for not having another meltdown game in the playoffs because we missed them outright.

So he did not have a "great" year. Again, while it was an excellent season for him, it would have been considered an off-year for some of his peers.

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23 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You're also leaving out the sub-60% completion percentage, likely because it isn't favorable to him. Also those stats ignore all the passes he threw right at defenders and were simply dropped by stupid luck: he averaged just over 1 every other game, on top of the 15 picks they didn't just happen to drop. It further leaves out the 4 games he blew our chances of victory with his multiple, late-game turnovers (Philadelphia, Houston, and Buffalo #2 with the season on the line), and/or sub-50% CR games throughout (Buffalo #1). Not to mention unnecessarily getting himself injured vs Oakland on what would be a stupid mistake even for a rookie.

All this was during an impossibly-favorable schedule that season in which we faced only 1 playoff team without multiple, significant injuries at our matchup. A season-long fortune for which only a fool would expect any serious likelihood of repetition. He also gets credit, indirectly, for not having another meltdown game in the playoffs because we missed them outright.

So he did not have a "great" year. Again, while it was an excellent season for him, it would have been considered an off-year for some of his peers.

I said solid, not great.  We were 4-12 the previous year, I think 10-6 surpassed everyone's expectations, but in the end it was a mirage.  We missed the playoffs, then in 2016 with a much tougher schedule, a ton of injuries and getting old at a bunch of positions, we finished 5-11 and looked bad doing it.  Next topic.

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22 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

I said solid, not great.  We were 4-12 the previous year, I think 10-6 surpassed everyone's expectations, but in the end it was a mirage.  We missed the playoffs, then in 2016 with a much tougher schedule, a ton of injuries and getting old at a bunch of positions, we finished 5-11 and looked bad doing it.  Next topic.

 

On 7/3/2017 at 11:07 AM, long suffering jets fan said:

 Fitz had one great year with the Jets

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On 7/3/2017 at 11:54 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

There's no evidence the team saw Favre purely as a 1-year rental.

  1. Favre "retired" on or about February 11th
  2. They drafted Sanchez on April 25th
  3. They released Favre April 29th

If they knew he was just a 1-year rental they'd have officially released him in February. Retaining his rights became impossible after trading up for Sanchez, because under the old CBA a top-5 pick QB got a $50-60m rookie contract when easily-reached incentives were factored in. There wasn't realistic room for both on the roster (certainly not the way Tannenbaum spent).

Also, enjoyment of 2015's moderate success aside, Fitzpatrick had zero "great" years. If one of the league's actually-great QBs had Fitzpatrick's 2015 season, it'd have been considered an off-year not a great one. 

If they didn't see Favre as a 1-year rental, they are dumber than we thought.  Favre wanted to go to the Vikings the whole time, the Packers would not trade him within the division.  That plan was as obvious as the Jets tampering with Parcells and the Pats tampering with Belichick.  

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23 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If they didn't see Favre as a 1-year rental, they are dumber than we thought.  Favre wanted to go to the Vikings the whole time, the Packers would not trade him within the division.  That plan was as obvious as the Jets tampering with Parcells and the Pats tampering with Belichick.  

I don't know. I know it is what we'd all like to believe they had the foresight to realize, but that's making past events fit what were then future/unknown events. They didn't make a strong play for any other veteran QB that year after Favre retired, even though some then-credible ones were available and a weak QB draft class upcoming.

Favre retired then unretired like 3 times because if he was retired he couldn't be fined (not to mention the bad publicity) for just skipping camp until August. I think when he retired for good it was his 4th time.

While we all knew he wanted to play for Minnesota, it's not known that he'd have stayed retired if he was still under Jets' control. It was in the trade agreement with GB that the Jets couldn't turn around and trade him to Minnesota (or we'd owe GB like 3 years worth of 1st round picks or something). Could very well be he just played chicken and - unlike Green Bay - the Jets flinched (in the form of trading up for Sanchez and then releasing Favre).

There isn't even evidence that, if they weren't able to trade up for Sanchez, then Jets were going to release Favre before the 2009 season. Impossible to know with 100% certainty, but II think as likely as not, based on his past history, he'd have un-retired in late July or early August again. 

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Anybody that didn't know that Favre was going to play chicken was delusional.  I apologize if you shared that delusion.  Maybe they could have changed his mind, but if they thought they could, they sure didn't do much of a job of trying. I never thought it was a good idea to get him because I generally don't think you want a guy that wants to be somewhere else

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On 7/3/2017 at 11:54 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

There's no evidence the team saw Favre purely as a 1-year rental.

  1. Favre "retired" on or about February 11th
  2. They drafted Sanchez on April 25th
  3. They released Favre April 29th

If they knew he was just a 1-year rental they'd have officially released him in February. Retaining his rights became impossible after trading up for Sanchez, because under the old CBA a top-5 pick QB got a $50-60m rookie contract when easily-reached incentives were factored in. There wasn't realistic room for both on the roster (certainly not the way Tannenbaum spent).

Also, enjoyment of 2015's moderate success aside, Fitzpatrick had zero "great" years. If one of the league's actually-great QBs had Fitzpatrick's 2015 season, it'd have been considered an off-year not a great one. 

actually it was, Tannebaum and the Jets thought they could convince Favre to stay if he enjoyed his first season so they bent over backwards for him and then he sabitaged their season.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/signs-point-jets-qb-brett-favre-returning-nfl-vikings-article-1.408388

 

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

actually it was, Tannebaum and the Jets thought they could convince Favre to stay if he enjoyed his first season so they bent over backwards for him and then he sabitaged their season.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/signs-point-jets-qb-brett-favre-returning-nfl-vikings-article-1.408388

 

What actually was what?

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10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

What actually was what?

it was common knowledge they got Favre to agree to come here for one year and would release him so he could sign w/ Minnesota(which was where he wanted to be in 2009).They had hoped he's like his year in 2009 and would want to come back but that didn't happen(which turned out good for us).

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17 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it was common knowledge they got Favre to agree to come here for one year and would release him so he could sign w/ Minnesota(which was where he wanted to be in 2009).They had hoped he's like his year in 2009 and would want to come back but that didn't happen(which turned out good for us).

I didn't get that from the article you posted. I think it was common knowledge it wouldn't be long term just from his age alone, and it was also common knowledge that he ideally wanted to play for Minnesota. Well, our rookie TE wants to play for New England.

Favre was under contract so if he wanted to play football he had to play with the Jets. He pulled the same thing with Green Bay but they didn't flinch, even before they felt confident enough to start Rodgers.

The Jets didn't cut him until after they already had Sanchez. Prior to that, it was no slam dunk they'd be able to trade up for him. In the pre-draft offseason they didn't pick up any other QBs.

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5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

If they didn't see Favre as a 1-year rental, they are dumber than we thought.  Favre wanted to go to the Vikings the whole time, the Packers would not trade him within the division.  That plan was as obvious as the Jets tampering with Parcells and the Pats tampering with Belichick.  

Favre was under contract for 2009.  He was never viewed as a rental 

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4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Anybody that didn't know that Favre was going to play chicken was delusional.  I apologize if you shared that delusion.  Maybe they could have changed his mind, but if they thought they could, they sure didn't do much of a job of trying. I never thought it was a good idea to get him because I generally don't think you want a guy that wants to be somewhere else

Trading for Favre was absolutely the right move.  Chad Pennington wasn't winning a super bowl for us.  Neither was Kellen Clemens or Captain August Bret Ratliff

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4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Anybody that didn't know that Favre was going to play chicken was delusional.  I apologize if you shared that delusion.  Maybe they could have changed his mind, but if they thought they could, they sure didn't do much of a job of trying. I never thought it was a good idea to get him because I generally don't think you want a guy that wants to be somewhere else

No doubt, Favre wanted no part of being here, and knew it was a one year punishment en route to Minnesota. I even read that the Jets had a hand shake agreement with him on that and they knew they had zero chance of bringing him back in 09.

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13 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it was common knowledge they got Favre to agree to come here for one year and would release him so he could sign w/ Minnesota(which was where he wanted to be in 2009).They had hoped he's like his year in 2009 and would want to come back but that didn't happen(which turned out good for us).

Uh yeah no

 

Favre was an "all in" move by Woody Tanenbaum because they knew we had a very good roster we just had no qb. Favre was cut after an epic Jet December meltdown thanks to his injury and we were $15 million over the cap and cutting was a quick and easy way to get under the cap when after he said he was retiring

 

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4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Anybody that didn't know that Favre was going to play chicken was delusional.  I apologize if you shared that delusion.  Maybe they could have changed his mind, but if they thought they could, they sure didn't do much of a job of trying. I never thought it was a good idea to get him because I generally don't think you want a guy that wants to be somewhere else

Was not at all surprised that Favre was gone after one year, and very much expected it, but still think it was a (sort of) good move.  If nothing else, it was the only thing that finally rid this team of the endless loop of mess they had been in at QB for the prior 5 seasons.

Granted, both Sanchez and Geno turned out to suck, and will likely be joined by a few other names who suck soon enough, but at least they have actually tried some new QBs since then.  If not for the Favre trade, Brady's injury likely leads to the classic story of "Chad actually manages to stay healthy, has an average season with a team that has a playoff appearance thanks to tiebreakers, before a horrifically awful playoff performance".  In the case of the Jets, that would probably be enough for them to give him another new contract, and when he would undoubtedly get hurt 5 minutes into 2009, we get to see the Clemens show, which of course goes awfully, and the cycle continues on.

There's nothing to really praise Favre for as a Jets fan, but it wouldn't have gone any better without him, and there were at least a few games that were more exciting than anything we had seen out of this team for quite a while before that.

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13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I didn't get that from the article you posted. I think it was common knowledge it wouldn't be long term just from his age alone, and it was also common knowledge that he ideally wanted to play for Minnesota. Well, our rookie TE wants to play for New England.

Favre was under contract so if he wanted to play football he had to play with the Jets. He pulled the same thing with Green Bay but they didn't flinch, even before they felt confident enough to start Rodgers.

The Jets didn't cut him until after they already had Sanchez. Prior to that, it was no slam dunk they'd be able to trade up for him. In the pre-draft offseason they didn't pick up any other QBs.

Not only that he waited like 3-4 months after getting cut and announcing his 2nd retirement before announcing he was going to the Vikings 

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12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I didn't get that from the article you posted. I think it was common knowledge it wouldn't be long term just from his age alone.

Favre was under contract so if he wanted to play football he had to play with the Jets. He pulled the same thing with Green Bay but they didn't flinch, even before they felt confident enough to start Rodgers.

The Jets didn't cut him until after they already had Sanchez. Prior to that, it was no slam dunk they'd be able to trade up for him. In the pre-draft offseason they didn't pick up any other QBs.

he had a handshake agreement w/ the Jets.  here's another article, if they didn't have that agreement they wouldn't have just let him walk.

http://nypost.com/2009/12/02/jets-shouldnt-have-let-favre-walk-away-for-free/

 

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6 minutes ago, thadude said:

Favre doesn't injure his arm we easily make the playoffs and make a run

his arm was fine enough to play, the iron man doesn't get injury excuses.  he didn't suck b/c of his arm, he sucked the majority of that season.  he never wanted to be here, he wanted to be in Minnesota.

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9 minutes ago, thadude said:

Uh yeah no

 

Favre was an "all in" move by Woody Tanenbaum because they knew we had a very good roster we just had no qb. Favre was cut after an epic Jet December meltdown thanks to his injury and we were $15 million over the cap and cutting was a quick and easy way to get under the cap when after he said he was retiring

 

they had an agreement it was a one year move, he never wanted to be here and this was the only way he could get to Minnesota.  the funny part is if we keep Chad we EASILY win the division but we went w/ Favre and he sabotaged a legit SB chance in a weak AFC.

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2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

his arm was fine enough to play, the iron man doesn't get injury excuses.  he didn't suck b/c of his arm, he sucked the majority of that season.  he never wanted to be here, he wanted to be in Minnesota.

He was injured.  Did you watch those games last 1/4 of the season Favre couldn't break a pane of glass with his throws

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