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idzik.. just how bad was he at drafting players ? ? ?

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11 minutes ago, glenn31 said:

 

 

 

 

 

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Come one now... Ya'll play nice.

some of the talent BP inherited:

 

Keyshawn Johnson

Wayne Cherebet

Adrian Murrell

Kyle Brady

Jeff Graham

Jumbo Elliot

Matt O'Dwyer

hugh Douglas

Mo Lewis

Marvin Jones

Aaron Glenn

Marcus Coleman

Ray Mickens

Richie Anderson

Chad Cascadden

Bobby Hamilton

 

that's a damn good base of talent to work with.  He also inherited the #1 OVERALL pick and #1 pick in each round which, of course, he screwed up.

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2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

idzilk was better than Mac in what regard?

and yeah NE has had clunkers but they have Tom Brady.  the 2014 draft would cripple any franchise as Idzik refused to spend on FAs and allowed others to leave to stockpile picks then he had one of the worst drafts in history in one of the deepest drafts of modern times.

Management.  He refused to sign FA's to stockpile picks.  He accumulated $60 mil. in cap space.  Basically, under Idzik, the team was in a similar situation as it is now except now we don't have much cap space and don't have any extra draft picks.  So, yea, Idzik was a better manager.

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Just now, sirlancemehlot said:

Management.  He refused to sign FA's to stockpile picks.  He accumulated $60 mil. in cap space.  Basically, under Idzik, the team was in a similar situation as it is now except now we don't have much cap space and don't have any extra draft picks.  So, yea, Idzik was a better manager.

ok.  I can agree w/. that.  I liked his approach, it was his execution that was lacking but to be fair to Macc he had to spend when he took over.

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

my mistake, I missed Winters.

I love Quincy but that draft produced the following WRs: Odell Beckham, Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, Brandin Cooks, Davante Adams, Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews, Davante Adams, Allen Robinson, Jarvis Landry, Donte Moncrief, Martavis Bryant while we drafted WRs Jalen Saunders, Shaq evans and later Enunway.

Williams isn't the off field distraction that Sheldon is and he doesn't take plays off like Mo.

 

Again, Macc's drafts have only seen 1 class w/ more than 1 season.  how can they be garbage? and you can;'t forget all the picks Idzik had in a talent rich 2014 draft.  he stockpiled picks and had one of the worst drafts in team history.
 

 

I'm comparing Idzik's two drafts to Mac's first two drafts.  Where is the huge disparity in talent that Mac has gotten us?

 

Idzik: Sheldon, Enunwa, Winters

Mac: Leo, Anderson (UFA)

 

The rest of the players are either JAGs or Duds

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

idzilk was better than Mac in what regard?

and yeah NE has had clunkers but they have Tom Brady.  the 2014 draft would cripple any franchise as Idzik refused to spend on FAs and allowed others to leave to stockpile picks then he had one of the worst drafts in history in one of the deepest drafts of modern times.

Too bad the 2015 and 2016 drafts weren't much better

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2 minutes ago, thadude said:

I'm comparing Idzik's two drafts to Mac's first two drafts.  Where is the huge disparity in talent that Mac has gotten us?

 

Idzik: Sheldon, Enunwa, Winters

Mac: Leo, Anderson (UFA)

 

The rest of the players are either JAGs or Duds

again, Idzik put all his energy into the 2014 draft and had the worst draft maybe we have ever had considering all the picks and the talent available.

Macc's drafts are mostly TBD at this point but he drafted the best player out of any of their drafts,

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1 minute ago, thadude said:

Too bad the 2015 and 2016 drafts weren't much better

it's not just the draft itslef, he didn't go after FAs and allowed our guys to leave to stockpile picks for that draft and he botched it in spectacular fashion setting the franchise back so now we didn't have a lot of talent, had to overspend in FA in Macc's 1st year and blew double digit draft picks.  it was a disaster, if Macc's drafts did turn out to be bad(still too early) he only had 5-6 picks and didn't spend all his energy in those drafts like Idzik did.  Idzik sabotaged Rex and destroyed our franchise short term.  

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2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

again, Idzik put all his energy into the 2014 draft and had the worst draft maybe we have ever had considering all the picks and the talent available.

Macc's drafts are mostly TBD at this point but he drafted the best player out of any of their drafts,

Oh okay so if you do an energy equation and multiply the coefficient of the enthusiasm for when Idzik drafted and subtract that by the derivative of Mac drafting Devin Smith, Lorenzen Mauldin and Bryce Petty you get Chris Hackenberg's rookie season wearing pajamas

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5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it's not just the draft itslef, he didn't go after FAs and allowed our guys to leave to stockpile picks for that draft and he botched it in spectacular fashion setting the franchise back so now we didn't have a lot of talent, had to overspend in FA in Macc's 1st year and blew double digit draft picks.  it was a disaster, if Macc's drafts did turn out to be bad(still too early) he only had 5-6 picks and didn't spend all his energy in those drafts like Idzik did.  Idzik sabotaged Rex and destroyed our franchise short term.  

You act like Mac played this shrewd game in free agency With the evil genius plan:

-- gave Mo, a 3-4 D-line player a $100 million deal

-- gave Revis an insane contract

--gave Fitz $13 mil guaranteed after bidding against himself

--signs Forte to a dumb contract with lots of guaranteed $ again bidding against himself

--signs McCown to $6 mil plus another $3 mil in incentives while bidding against himself

--tries to trade Decker after announcing he is cutting him

--Second highest dead cap room in the NFL 

 

Wow that's the art of the deal right there folks

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8 minutes ago, thadude said:

You act like Mac played this shrewd game in free agency With the evil genius plan:

-- gave Mo, a 3-4 D-line player a $100 million deal

-- gave Revis an insane contract

--gave Fitz $13 mil guaranteed after bidding against himself

--signs Forte to a dumb contract with lots of guaranteed $ again bidding against himself

--signs McCown to $6 mil plus another $3 mil in incentives while bidding against himself

--tries to trade Decker after announcing he is cutting him

--Second highest dead cap room in the NFL 

 

Wow that's the art of the deal right there folks

not one contract was a bad one. they had to spend big year 1 by rule but that wasn't his long term plan.  he spent to allow them to compete short term while trying to bring in young talent for the long term.  he's done a good job bringing in some talent so far.  we'll see what happens over the next few years.

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16 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it's not just the draft itslef, he didn't go after FAs and allowed our guys to leave to stockpile picks for that draft and he botched it in spectacular fashion setting the franchise back so now we didn't have a lot of talent, had to overspend in FA in Macc's 1st year and blew double digit draft picks.  it was a disaster, if Macc's drafts did turn out to be bad(still too early) he only had 5-6 picks and didn't spend all his energy in those drafts like Idzik did.  Idzik sabotaged Rex and destroyed our franchise short term.  

Who was sabotaging Rex before Idzik got here? 

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17 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it's not just the draft itslef, he didn't go after FAs and allowed our guys to leave to stockpile picks for that draft and he botched it in spectacular fashion setting the franchise back so now we didn't have a lot of talent, had to overspend in FA in Macc's 1st year and blew double digit draft picks.  it was a disaster, if Macc's drafts did turn out to be bad(still too early) he only had 5-6 picks and didn't spend all his energy in those drafts like Idzik did.  Idzik sabotaged Rex and destroyed our franchise short term.  

Why did Maccagnan have to "overspend in FA"?  Is there a reason he couldn't obtain more/better/younger players?  Is there a reason why Carpenter is the only acquisition we made that offseason that we don't wish was gone now?  Did Idzik leaving him cap space somehow force him to choose poorly?

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16 minutes ago, thadude said:

Oh okay so if you do an energy equation and multiply the coefficient of the enthusiasm for when Idzik drafted and subtract that by the derivative of Mac drafting Devin Smith, Lorenzen Mauldin and Bryce Petty you get Chris Hackenberg's rookie season wearing pajamas

Yeah, but Mac didn't put his energy into drafting Devin Smith.

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why did Maccagnan have to "overspend in FA"?  Is there a reason he couldn't obtain more/better/younger players?  Is there a reason why Carpenter is the only acquisition we made that offseason that we don't wish was gone now?  Did Idzik leaving him cap space somehow force him to choose poorly?

Have you not seen Brewster's Millions?

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

some of the talent BP inherited:

 

Keyshawn Johnson

Wayne Cherebet

Adrian Murrell

Kyle Brady

Jeff Graham

Jumbo Elliot

Matt O'Dwyer

hugh Douglas

Mo Lewis

Marvin Jones

Aaron Glenn

Marcus Coleman

Ray Mickens

Richie Anderson

Chad Cascadden

Bobby Hamilton

 

that's a damn good base of talent to work with.  He also inherited the #1 OVERALL pick and #1 pick in each round which, of course, he screwed up.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. The hilarious part to me was @T0mshane making like a WWF wrestler who's in the center of the ring when all hell breaks loose and he's taking on all comers sliding under the ropes into the ring from every angle.

But that also goes to show you how thin the line is between "talented" & "untalented." The main difference is that many of those same guys were out of shape and too fat to play under Kotite. The poster boy for how out of shape the '95-'96 Jets were was none other than Jet great Mo Lewis himself, if I recall correctly. But 1-15, the perception is "wow what a sorry untalented bunch." Then at 9-7, they became perceived as a team with "talent." They did play like untalented bums under Kotite, though.

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18 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Who was sabotaging Rex before Idzik got here? 

you mean when we had 2 title game apps and 1 losing season in 4 years before Idzik?

18 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why did Maccagnan have to "overspend in FA"?  Is there a reason he couldn't obtain more/better/younger players?  Is there a reason why Carpenter is the only acquisition we made that offseason that we don't wish was gone now?  Did Idzik leaving him cap space somehow force him to choose poorly?

we had to spend that offseason, where were the good, low cost buys he should have loaded up on?  in FA you usually overpay and he had to spend a boatload b/c we hadn't spent in years.  again, he went w/ the short term FA approach to try to compete while still rebuilding.  it worked year 1, it didn't year 2.  the biggest mistake was hiring the HC.

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17 minutes ago, glenn31 said:

No, I'm not arguing that at all. The hilarious part to me was @T0mshane making like a WWF wrestler who's in the center of the ring when all hell breaks loose and he's taking on all comers sliding under the ropes into the ring from every angle.

But that also goes to show you how thin the line is between "talented" & "untalented." The main difference is that many of those same guys were out of shape and too fat to play under Kotite. The poster boy for how out of shape the '95-'96 Jets were was none other than Jet great Mo Lewis himself, if I recall correctly. But 1-15, the perception is "wow what a sorry untalented bunch." Then at 9-7, they became perceived as a team with "talent." They did play like untalented bums under Kotite, though.

absolutely, BP knew how to motivate and get players ready to play.  no one is better at the quick turnaround than BP.  we had a lot of talent but talent that was underachieving.  if we didn't have talent there's no way BP comes here, he thought he could win fast w/ us and get out which was why he wanted no part of a rookie #1 pick in 1997 and didn't commit to Peyton.

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Parcells got rid of Farrior and Hugh Douglas, which in retrospect was probably a poor decision. Rehashing 20 years ago because of the current state of the team is as Jets as it gets though.

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6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

you mean when we had 2 title game apps and 1 losing season in 4 years before Idzik?

we had to spend that offseason, where were the good, low cost buys he should have loaded up on?  in FA you usually overpay and he had to spend a boatload b/c we hadn't spent in years.  again, he went w/ the short term FA approach to try to compete while still rebuilding.  it worked year 1, it didn't year 2.  the biggest mistake was hiring the HC.

Market price does not mean "overpay."  Could he have signed any free agents under 30?  How are any of these guys long-term solutions?  Revis, Harris, Forte, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, or Clady?  Even the lower level guys he signed were fairly old - Erin Henderson, McClendon, Kellen Davis.  What problem did these players solve? Who the **** did he sign under 30?  Skrine, Gilchrist and Carpenter?

This is running a team, not taking a trig mid-term.  It didn't "work" in 2015.  Yay! Hurray, we got an 85, but we were in a worse position for 2016, and we are in horrific position for 2017. No QB, no LT, no edge rusher, and sketchy at WR. Our CB1 has missed at least 1/4 season since 2012, but he is a FA in 2018 anyway. Where are the long term solutions?  Safety, DE and ILB?  We were stacked at DE when they got here.  

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8 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Parcells got rid of Farrior and Hugh Douglas, which in retrospect was probably a poor decision. Rehashing 20 years ago because of the current state of the team is as Jets as it gets though.

Parcells didn't get rid of Farrior.  He played him and prayed that he would turn into LT@ 3-4 OLB. Farrior was with the Jets right until Herm used him in the Cover Who when he finally had a  decent year in 2001.  Then he signed with Pittsburgh.

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4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Market price does not mean "overpay."  Could he have signed any free agents under 30?  How are any of these guys long-term solutions?  Revis, Harris, Forte, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, or Clady?  Even the lower level guys he signed were fairly old - Erin Henderson, McClendon, Kellen Davis.  What problem did these players solve? Who the **** did he sign under 30?  Skrine, Gilchrist and Carpenter?

This is running a team, not taking a trig mid-term.  It didn't "work" in 2015.  Yay! Hurray, we got an 85, but we were in a worse position for 2016, and we are in horrific position for 2017. No QB, no LT, no edge rusher, and sketchy at WR. Our CB1 has missed at least 1/4 season since 2012, but he is a FA in 2018 anyway. Where are the long term solutions?  Safety, DE and ILB?  We were stacked at DE when they got here.  

again, the plan was to sign those guys for the short term while building through the draft.  

 

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4 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

holy ******* hell

which one kept us from signing another talented player? which one put us in cap hell?  all the contracts were structured w/ easy outs after a year or 2.  

have you guys watched football in the salary cap era?

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7 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

again, the plan was to sign those guys for the short term while building through the draft.  

 

Ah.  We are there.  You  have said it.  The plan was to pay a ton of money for older vets "for the short term" while building through the draft.  That is a sh*tty plan.  Wouldn't a better plan be to utilize every method at your fingertips to obtain players that will be the building blocks of your team for years to come?  

I believe that there are 2 guys that he signed during his extravaganza still on the team.  One is only there because of all the dead money and the utter failure to find any other borderline starting CB.  Add Forte to the list of guys we wished were gone while we still have to pay them starting salaries.

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Just now, nyjunc said:

which one kept us from signing another talented player? which one put us in cap hell?  all the contracts were structured w/ easy outs after a year or 2.  

have you guys watched football in the salary cap era?

Have you?  The guy inherited a blank slate.  In two years he maxed out his credit cards and is paying the 2nd most dead money.  In case you need a lesson in efficiency, dead money is bad.  sh*t, his spending was so bad that despite the clean slate he had to kick more than half of the bearded one's salary over to this year.

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2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Ah.  We are there.  You  have said it.  The plan was to pay a ton of money for older vets "for the short term" while building through the draft.  That is a sh*tty plan.  Wouldn't a better plan be to utilize every method at your fingertips to obtain players that will be the building blocks of your team for years to come?  

I believe that there are 2 guys that he signed during his extravaganza still on the team.  One is only there because of all the dead money and the utter failure to find any other borderline starting CB.  Add Forte to the list of guys we wished were gone while we still have to pay them starting salaries.

so overpay for marginal talents in the hopes they become good players?  he had the team at 10-5 needing one win to break the playoff drought.

Forte was a bad move.

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Have you?  The guy inherited a blank slate.  In two years he maxed out his credit cards and is paying the 2nd most dead money.  In case you need a lesson in efficiency, dead money is bad.  sh*t, his spending was so bad that despite the clean slate he had to kick more than half of the bearded one's salary over to this year.

he didn't inherit a blank slate, he inherited a situation where he had to pay a crazy amount of the cap b/c the previous guy didn't pay.  

what players that we wouldn't were out there that we couldn't afford based on these moves? next year we will have an insane amount of cap room again except we won't HAVE to use 90% of it.

fans are getting freaked out b/c of all the names we released but how many could still play at a high level? maybe Marshall? maybe Decker(if healthy)? who else? these moves weren't made for the cap for this year, it was to clean out the old guys and give young guys a chance to compete and a year from now we'll have a high pick and boatloads of cap room where we eon't have to use basically all the cap space unlike 2 years ago.  we are in a good position in the long term IF he drafts well.  that is TBD.

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10 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

which one kept us from signing another talented player? which one put us in cap hell?  all the contracts were structured w/ easy outs after a year or 2.  

have you guys watched football in the salary cap era?

The object of the game is to have the guys you pay big dollars for actually be good.  The fact you can get out from under heinous blunders of your own making does not make it 'all right'.

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3 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The object of the game is to have the guys you pay big dollars for actually be good.  The fact you can get out from under heinous blunders of your own making does not make it 'all right'.

we were in a unique situation where we had to spend a high % of our cap.  would people feel better if we overspent for younger players w/ tougher contracts to get out from?  FA is not a way to win, it's a way to add pieces around your core. the new regime was left w/ very little talent and a ton of money they had to spend.  it worked for a year, should have been able to work for 2 but it didn't.  now we are rebuilding the right way.  will it be painful? yes, will it work? who knows?  but we have tried the quick fix for a long time and have had some success, wouldn't it be nice to build a team that can compete for years?  hopefully it doesn't take as long as the raiders but hopefully we end up like they are now.

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4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Parcells walked into a very talented young team.  The team was just poorly coached, BP is an all time great HC.  many of the same players that were 1-15 in 1996 were 9-7 in 1997.

it's not just that Idzik's drafts were bad but he built up for that one huge draft and did a horrendous job that set the franchise back a few years.  we had a one year blip w/ FA when we had to spend but Macc deserves time to rebuild the right way.

Not to mention our DC was Bill Belichick.

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5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

so overpay for marginal talents in the hopes they become good players?  he had the team at 10-5 needing one win to break the playoff drought.

Forte was a bad move.

he didn't inherit a blank slate, he inherited a situation where he had to pay a crazy amount of the cap b/c the previous guy didn't pay.  

what players that we wouldn't were out there that we couldn't afford based on these moves? next year we will have an insane amount of cap room again except we won't HAVE to use 90% of it.

fans are getting freaked out b/c of all the names we released but how many could still play at a high level? maybe Marshall? maybe Decker(if healthy)? who else? these moves weren't made for the cap for this year, it was to clean out the old guys and give young guys a chance to compete and a year from now we'll have a high pick and boatloads of cap room where we eon't have to use basically all the cap space unlike 2 years ago.  we are in a good position in the long term IF he drafts well.  that is TBD.

#1.  You said no bad contracts and now say Forte was a bad move.

#2.  You have zero understanding of the cap floor.  He did not HAVE to spend all that money.  The 89% is over a period from 2013-2016.  It wasn't ******* 2016, was it?  He didn't have to spend it anymore than he will have to spend it next year.  It also only covers cash spending which means it is subject to manipulation by a savvy GM.  Our GM has not been savvy. 

#3. The only alternatives are not overpay for 30+ year old vets with injury concerns or "overpay for marginal talents in the hopes they become good players".  Have you ever heard of signing younger players to reasonable contracts?  Locking up your young players long term so that you don't end up forced to pay Winters $8M per or Wilkerson some insane amount?  It can be done.  It has been done.  

#4.  I don't think anybody is getting freaked out by the names getting cut.  We are getting pissed at things like Snacks playing for the Giants while we are paying his salary to Revis and Fitzpatrick.  It is a poor allocation of resources.  

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