nycdan Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 3 hours ago, johnnysd said: i don't know what the hell you guys are all blathering about. On this day, I actually feel oddly optimistic about this coming season: We don't have a clear #1, but I think we will have a really solid WR corps that will get guys open. I think Hack will break out and be the guy. Not listening to the negative nancys. I think all the veteran trimmings were positive moves not tanking moves. Wildcards are Bowles stupidity and stubborness. If he can stifle himself and embrace young players we can have a good year. Positivity people. Get psyched. If Hack throws 2 TDs to ASJ on Week 1, the bandwagon is going to break an axle from the weight of all the people jumping on at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j4jets Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 When you put down Sheldon Richardson as Idzik's biggest disappointment, you lose all your credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 On 7/10/2017 at 6:00 PM, nyjunc said: we were in a unique situation where we had to spend a high % of our cap. would people feel better if we overspent for younger players w/ tougher contracts to get out from? FA is not a way to win, it's a way to add pieces around your core. the new regime was left w/ very little talent and a ton of money they had to spend. it worked for a year, should have been able to work for 2 but it didn't. now we are rebuilding the right way. will it be painful? yes, will it work? who knows? but we have tried the quick fix for a long time and have had some success, wouldn't it be nice to build a team that can compete for years? hopefully it doesn't take as long as the raiders but hopefully we end up like they are now. He could have used that terrible inherited money to keep Snacks. He could have used to to extend Mo earlier (and for cheaper) and pay more of them early so they'd have lower cap numbers later. He didn't have to spend that much, and that's why he was already over the cap in 2016 even after getting another $10m in cap relief from Ferguson. A year-earlier Mo extension would/could have spent an additional $15m over the $8m he got under his 5th yr option, and the remainder of his cap hits would have been millions less per year. An extension of Snacks in 2015 wouldn't have been nearly the $9m/yr he got as a full UFA after another year of inflation. $6m likely would have gotten that done in 2015, and it could have come with $15m in cash in year 1, which is some $12-13m more cash than he spent on Snacks under his RFA tag amount. Those 2 players alone - one of which he ended up keeping anyway, and for more money - would have immediately used up some additional $25-30m of "he had to spend it" cash. That's as much cash as he spent (in 2015) on Cromartie ($7m), Harris ($7.5m), Skrine ($6.5m), and Gilchrist ($5m) combined. The difference is there would have been a windfall of extra flexibility preseved for the future instead of busting his nut early. This exaggerated myth that he had to sign all these dead-end and/or bad players just grows every time the story is retold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogglez Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 9 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said: 2012 draft: Quinton Coples Stephen Hill Demario Davis Josh Bush Terrance Ganaway Robert Griffin Antonio Allen Jordan White Bad drafts don't necessarily end a team's chances at being competitive. The Pats have had a few clunkers too. It's bad management that sinks a football team. Idzik was better than Mac in this regard by leaps and bounds. That's great and all but Idzik's first draft was 2013 sooooooo...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogglez Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 4 hours ago, NoBowles said: Idzik was actually great, excellent drafter and GM. He was cut short by inpatient Jets fans. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogglez Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 John Idzik might have been the worst GM I've seen in at least 20 years. Matt Millen was arguably better. Chip f*cking Kelly got better talent than that ugly scarecrow looking mother f*cker in his BB-wannabe role and by the end of his Eagles tenure that dude was just saying "F*ck it, let's try this!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Blast Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 19 hours ago, T0mShane said: I don't think we can lay all the blame at Maccagnan's and Bowles's feet until we regurgitate the Steve Gutman Era. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBowles Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 11 hours ago, phill1c said: Either this is a joke or you've lost any and all credibility. That, and the word is actually "impatient"... Picking up on sarcasm isn't really your thing huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 14 hours ago, Matt39 said: ah, right. Good memory. Herm also tried to make Shaun Ellis a nose tackle. This is patently false! He tried to make Ellis an "under tackle." He was trying to recreate the Dungy Tampa D and was going with Ellis in the Sapp role. I believe that Ferguson was supposed to play the nose. I think that was Brad Culpepper with the Bucs. Bad idea either way. It was only 30 pounds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I love that like half the posters here have somehow convinced themselves that Idzik-Maccagnan comparisons are intended as a compliment to Idzik and not as an insult to Maccagnan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 13 hours ago, NoBowles said: Idzik was actually great, excellent drafter and GM. He was cut short by inpatient Jets fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBowles Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, dbatesman said: I love that like half the posters here have somehow convinced themselves that Idzik-Maccagnan comparisons are intended as a compliment to Idzik and not as an insult to Maccagnan. Lets be clear, comparing anyone to Idzik is as bad of a shot as you can take on a GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phill1c Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 39 minutes ago, NoBowles said: Picking up on sarcasm isn't really your thing huh? I'm not here enough to distinguish between sarcasm from the normal Jets fan stupidity. There are still people posting here who support Idzick and were upset when FitzSuckage lost his starting job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBowles Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, phill1c said: I'm not here enough to distinguish between sarcasm from the normal Jets fan stupidity. There are still people posting here who support Idzick and were upset when FitzSuckage lost his starting job. Right, and people who still think Geno Smith is a starting QB, not sure whats worse..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, NoBowles said: Lets be clear, comparing anyone to Idzik is as bad of a shot as you can take on a GM. Now you're catching on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phill1c Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Just now, NoBowles said: Right, and people who still think Geno Smith is a starting QB, not sure whats worse..... Who here thinks Geno Smith starts for a team? I think you mean there are people here who think Geno Smith has the talent to be a starter. I'm one of them, especially when compared to FitzFoolsGold and Josh McSucksWorse. But I get it, you took the time to get a dig in on Geno Smith because it's very important to your worldview. Were your previous forum names NoGeno and before that NoHerm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I don't know what is worse, thinking Geno can be a starter or these horrific contrived nicknames for everybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phill1c Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 says, cough, TheDominatorOfNothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodeawhodat Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 25 minutes ago, phill1c said: says, cough, TheDominatorOfNothing bazzzinga!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Said if before I'll say it again, Idzik did just about everything correctly except for drafting. And in the end that is how GM's are judged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Beerfish said: Said if before I'll say it again, Idzik did just about everything correctly except for drafting. And in the end that is how GM's are judged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, kelly said: Lets see what he did or had to deal with. - got rid of a lot of awful contracts and old players who were not longer viable. - Accumulated a ton of draft picks and many comp picks. - Refused to pay any one position. (ie REVIS) too much so that it hamstrung a team. - Was not allowed to pick his own coach instead having to deal with Rex as he spiraled downwards. - Set the team up with a lot of cash and draft resources ready to actually rebuild an aging team. He drafted awfully and for that he deserved to get canned but he handed the team over to our latest regime in good shape. And low and behold 2 1/2 years later we are back to square one. - Even the one move everyone hated, was not a terrible one at the time. That being Harvin. As he said that the time he was trying to set the team up for sustainable success. Mac and bowles came in and blew the wad on one year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 18 hours ago, #27TheDominator said: #1. You said no bad contracts and now say Forte was a bad move. #2. You have zero understanding of the cap floor. He did not HAVE to spend all that money. The 89% is over a period from 2013-2016. It wasn't ******* 2016, was it? He didn't have to spend it anymore than he will have to spend it next year. It also only covers cash spending which means it is subject to manipulation by a savvy GM. Our GM has not been savvy. #3. The only alternatives are not overpay for 30+ year old vets with injury concerns or "overpay for marginal talents in the hopes they become good players". Have you ever heard of signing younger players to reasonable contracts? Locking up your young players long term so that you don't end up forced to pay Winters $8M per or Wilkerson some insane amount? It can be done. It has been done. #4. I don't think anybody is getting freaked out by the names getting cut. We are getting pissed at things like Snacks playing for the Giants while we are paying his salary to Revis and Fitzpatrick. It is a poor allocation of resources. and you'd all be the same people complaining we overpaid for Harrison if we re-signed him. he's a good player, we didn't suck b/c we lost him. fans just love to bitch at anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 13 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said: He could have used that terrible inherited money to keep Snacks. He could have used to to extend Mo earlier (and for cheaper) and pay more of them early so they'd have lower cap numbers later. He didn't have to spend that much, and that's why he was already over the cap in 2016 even after getting another $10m in cap relief from Ferguson. A year-earlier Mo extension would/could have spent an additional $15m over the $8m he got under his 5th yr option, and the remainder of his cap hits would have been millions less per year. An extension of Snacks in 2015 wouldn't have been nearly the $9m he got as a full UFA after another year of inflation. $6m likely would have gotten that done in 2015, and it could have come with $15m in cash in year 1, which is some $12-13m more cash than he spent on Snacks under his RFA tag amount. Those 2 players alone - one of which he ended up keeping anyway, and for more money - would have immediately used up some additional $25-30m of "he had to spend it" cash. That's as much cash as he spent (in 2015) on Cromartie ($7m), Harris ($7.5m), Skrine ($6.5m), and Gilchrist ($5m) combined. The difference is there would have been a windfall of extra flexibility preseved for the future instead of busting his nut early. This exaggerated myth that he had to sign all these dead-end and/or bad players just grows every time the story is retold. do you guys think they weren't trying to get deals done earlier? they did all they could to keep harrison. he didn't have to sign those players but he had to sign players and it worked for a year. last year was a disaster, no one could have predicted we'd be that bad. I think many thought we'd take a step back but nothing like what we saw. Now it's being torn down to rebuild, let's see how it goes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, nyjunc said: do you guys think they weren't trying to get deals done earlier? they did all they could to keep harrison. he didn't have to sign those players but he had to sign players and it worked for a year. last year was a disaster, no one could have predicted we'd be that bad. I think many thought we'd take a step back but nothing like what we saw. Now it's being torn down to rebuild, let's see how it goes? all they could... with the exception of paying millions of dollars to players that they no longer wanted on the team? Why did he have to sign players? Because by 2016 he had to spend 89%? I can't believe that scumbag Idzik forced him to use that much cap space. Who could succeed under such conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBowles Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 hours ago, phill1c said: Who here thinks Geno Smith starts for a team? I think you mean there are people here who think Geno Smith has the talent to be a starter. I'm one of them, especially when compared to FitzFoolsGold and Josh McSucksWorse. But I get it, you took the time to get a dig in on Geno Smith because it's very important to your worldview. Were your previous forum names NoGeno and before that NoHerm? Before you go on anymore racist tirades, you should know, I am an African American. It is possible to think a Black player sucks and not be racist. I know, it's crazy, but true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: all they could... with the exception of paying millions of dollars to players that they no longer wanted on the team? Why did he have to sign players? Because by 2016 he had to spend 89%? I can't believe that scumbag Idzik forced him to use that much cap space. Who could succeed under such conditions? they went from 4 wins to 10 wins so he did ok, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 minute ago, nyjunc said: they went from 4 wins to 10 wins so he did ok, right? What is your goal? The goal of a GM is a sustainable winning team. We have not had one since 2010. A GM is supposed to make the tough calls for the future. So far, he has not. You act like he was handcuffed by having cap space in 2015 and by success in 2016. Poor baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: What is your goal? The goal of a GM is a sustainable winning team. We have not had one since 2010. A GM is supposed to make the tough calls for the future. So far, he has not. You act like he was handcuffed by having cap space in 2015 and by success in 2016. Poor baby. it is and that is what he is working on, if you don't have a franchise guy at QB you yo-yo. that is the way this league works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, nyjunc said: it is and that is what he is working on, if you don't have a franchise guy at QB you yo-yo. that is the way this league works. The Jets were a winning organization from 1997-2010. Which one of those guys was a "franchise guy at QB"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: The Jets were a winning organization from 1997-2010. Which one of those guys was a "franchise guy at QB"? we had greatest stretch in team history but also were up and down. 1998 12 wins 1999 8 2000 9 2001 10 2002 9 2003 6 2004 10 2005 4 2006 10 2007 4 2008 9 2009 9 2010 11 2011 8 2012 6 2013 8 2014 4 2015 10 2016 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBowles Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 58 minutes ago, Beerfish said: Lets see what he did or had to deal with. - got rid of a lot of awful contracts and old players who were not longer viable. - Accumulated a ton of draft picks and many comp picks. - Refused to pay any one position. (ie REVIS) too much so that it hamstrung a team. - Was not allowed to pick his own coach instead having to deal with Rex as he spiraled downwards. - Set the team up with a lot of cash and draft resources ready to actually rebuild an aging team. He drafted awfully and for that he deserved to get canned but he handed the team over to our latest regime in good shape. And low and behold 2 1/2 years later we are back to square one. - Even the one move everyone hated, was not a terrible one at the time. That being Harvin. As he said that the time he was trying to set the team up for sustainable success. Mac and bowles came in and blew the wad on one year. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBowles Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 hours ago, dbatesman said: Now you're catching on! Lolz, still waiting for you to catch on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, NoBowles said: Lol Your lack of rebuttal on any of those points shows clearly you have no viable replies to refute them. I'll take them all as wins in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phill1c Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 "Your lack of rebuttal on any of those points shows clearly you have no viable replies to refute them. I'll take them all as wins in that case." NOT SO FAST, MR. MAGOO!! There's plenty of rebuttal for those inane 'points': - got rid of a lot of awful contracts and old players who were not longer viable. You're damning with faint praise: he let contracts expire My sister could have done the same. there was no real acumen needed to not renew or extend a bad contract And who did he replace these "awful" contracts that simply expired (so maybe by the time Idzick dealt with them these contracts were not so awful) - Refused to pay any one position. (ie REVIS) too much so that it hamstrung a team. Not seeing how the Jets were hamstrung by the Revis contract They had Revis for a while and got rid of him once his play diminished. Suffered no real lasting cap damage. - Accumulated a ton of draft picks and many comp picks. Accumulating picks and not drafting well diminishes greatly the benefit of accumulating the picks He accumulated "a ton" (a ton being a few 2nd and 3rd day picks, whoop de damn do) of picks IN ONE DRAFT and, of course, he squandered the majority of them. The net effect of all of those picks was one of the worst rosters in the NFL, that year and the year after. - Was not allowed to pick his own coach instead having to deal with Rex as he spiraled downwards. Who should trust him to pick a coach? He sure as f*ck couldn't assess player talent. He has no record of assessing coaching talent. - Set the team up with a lot of cash and draft resources ready to actually rebuild an aging team. Yet showed ZERO ability to rebuild a team Again, any fool can "save money" by refusing to play players while fielding one of the least talented teams in NFL history. but if you can't actually assess talent the savings is not really important (to fans anyway). I really couldn't give a sh!t that Dick Dick saved some of his vast family fortune. And, again, I don't recall a ton of extra picks for the rebuilding aside from that one draft. - Even the one move everyone hated, was not a terrible one at the time. That being Harvin. Um, yeah it was. Idzick had to trade for a WR because the WRs on the team were so incredibly bad to begin with. He gave up draft capital for a less-than one season rental for a team going nowhere Very poor judgment (in believing that the WRs were NFL quality to begin with and for trading for a small, injury-prone, expensive WR in the middle of the season) Firing idzick was THE START of good things for this franchise. He was a capologist, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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