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idzik.. just how bad was he at drafting players ? ? ?


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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

"Couch change" when looked at independently:

  • $12m for Fitzpatrick for his sh*tty 2016 season (passed off as less when incorrectly looked at as $7m and $5m)
  • $5m for a PUP'd Breno for 2016
  • $7m for Cromartie for 2015
  • $15m for Harris for 2015-2016
  • $6m for Revis to actually sit on a couch in 2017
  • $10m (easily $2-3m/yr additional) for painting himself into a corner on B.Winters
  • $3m for Jarvis Jenkins for 2016
  • $5.5m for Ijalana for 2017
  • $9m guaranteed (plus losing a 5th round comp pick) for 31-32 yr old Matt Forte for 2016-17
  • $6m for Josh McCown
  • $3m to keep Richardson in a dead-end 2016, instead of taking a good 2017 draft pick, which has led to paying another $8m for him in this tear-down 2017 season because now he has so little trade value.

So this "couch change" alone adds up to about $90m. It is gross negligence.

Not only is there additional "couch change" on top of this, but it doesn't count the other $33m of the staggering $39m for 2 years of an obviously past-his-prime Revis. 

Ok this is just crazy:

First of all, I said couch change to describe the dead money owed to Fitzpatrick. So, you've actually changed my opinion AGAIN to suit your own nefarious purposes. Seriously, can you stop doing that?

Secondly, it costs money to pay players. You've lumped all these contracts into one incoherent bash.I could defend a number of them but since you really just listed a bunch of contracts without saying why you find them "gross negligence" I'll decline to comment.

Seriously, please stop amending my opinions. I'm begging you...

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1 minute ago, slats said:

We're finishing up here. Your defenses of Maccagnan are really not effective, you just seem to enjoy baiting responses. Which is fine, Max likes posts. But I'm eventually gonna have enough. 

Wow, let me know when we're done. I see you're in charge of debate  around here.

I feel they ARE effective. I've gotten a couple of "likes". Where are YOUR likes?

I don't see why you're taking a personal insult to my opinions. Mature people can disagree. I understand you don't appreciate the job Maccagnan has done. Ok, but you don't have to get upset that you've been challenged, do you? Post, don't post. But why do you feel a need to cut off debate? You can stop posting anytime without telling me you are. That's just immature and hostile for no good reason.

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8 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Secondly, it costs money to pay players.

SPERM (nefarious, bad fan, ruthlessly amending opinions)  : Here is a list of terrible contracts Maccagnan has handed out.

PHILL1C (smart, discerning, sees big picture): money can be exchanged for goods and services

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3 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Wow, let me know when we're done. I see you're in charge of debate  around here.

I feel they ARE effective. I've gotten a couple of "likes". Where are YOUR likes?

I don't see why you're taking a personal insult to my opinions. Mature people can disagree. I understand you don't appreciate the job Maccagnan has done. Ok, but you don't have to get upset that you've been challenged, do you? Post, don't post. But why do you feel a need to cut off debate? You can stop posting anytime without telling me you are. That's just immature and hostile for no good reason.

That's the problem, see? You're not challenging me. And lol @ you calling me immature and hostile while simultaneously saying that I'm taking a personal insult to your opinions. 

You're doing little but belittling arguments against the job Maccagnan's done without making any real case for what he's done so far. You think he was smart to stay the course because 10-win season, I think he was foolish to not recognize those 10 wins were a mirage. Fitzpatrick wasn't good, he was lucky, and the GM needs to be able to tell the difference even when Manish Mehta might be saying something else. Plain and simple. It's the job of the talent evaluator in charge to recognize the talent he has and pay it accordingly. He bought into the hype of those 10 wins when a smart executive would've seen thru it. Would've made the tough calls instead of the so-called fan pleasing ones (i.e.: paying Fitzpatrick). 

Three years in, perhaps the worst roster in the league. That's my position. Your position is that he's doing things the smart way. Defend your position. Try to be mature about it. 

 

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24 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Ok this is just crazy:

First of all, I said couch change to describe the dead money owed to Fitzpatrick. So, you've actually changed my opinion AGAIN to suit your own nefarious purposes. Seriously, can you stop doing that?

Secondly, it costs money to pay players. You've lumped all these contracts into one incoherent bash.I could defend a number of them but since you really just listed a bunch of contracts without saying why you find them "gross negligence" I'll decline to comment.

Seriously, please stop amending my opinions. I'm begging you...

Great logic.  $5M is "couch change" then when we show how decisions like this quickly add up to $90M+ you whine "that's not what I said."  

You have to pay players, you don't have to overpay by $90M or set up deals so that you are paying 2nd highest in the league dead money. 

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20 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

SPERM (nefarious, bad fan, ruthlessly amending opinions)  : Here is a list of terrible contracts Maccagnan has handed out.

PHILL1C (smart, discerning, sees big picture): money can be exchanged for goods and services

Everytime I think I'm out, they pull me back in... (OK, I wanted in...)

  • $12m for Fitzpatrick for his sh*tty 2016 season (passed off as less when incorrectly looked at as $7m and $5m)
    • I don't think he was paying him for his sh*tty season. He did have one though.
    • He had a record-setting season prior and the options were limited.
  • $5m for a PUP'd Breno for 2016
    • He didn't pay him before he was PUP'd so, not really a good example
  • $7m for Cromartie for 2015
    • Terrible, I mean, who pays $7m for a veteran CB?
    • Not sure of the cap impact after the $7m either (because there was none)
  • $15m for Harris for 2015-2016
    • Overpaid, but he's David Freaking Harris for crise sake
    • And he's gone
  • $6m for Revis to actually sit on a couch in 2017
    • The dreaded dead money
  • $10m (easily $2-3m/yr additional) for painting himself into a corner on B.Wlliams
    • Doesn't seem extravagant to me.
  • $3m for Jarvis Jenkins for 2016
    • Doesn't seem extravagant to me.
  • $5.5m for Ijalana for 2017
    • Doesn't seem extravagant to me for a young OL starter.
  • $9m guaranteed (plus losing a 5th round comp pick) for 31-32 yr old Matt Forte for 2016-17
    • Wasn't very good here.
  • $6m for Josh McCown
    • What would you pay? Who would you pay?
    • Seems like a great signing when compared to how you lambasted Mac for Fitzpatrick's money
  • $3m to keep Richardson in a dead-end 2016, instead of taking a good 2017 draft pick, which has led to paying another $8m for him in this tear-down 2017 season because now he has so little trade value.
    • This is just a fantastical, agenda-driven account.
    • You know of no offers made
    • His trade value is what it is. Richardson is primarily responsible for how much people will pay for Richardson, not the GM.

I think you can't lump a bunch of contracts together and say "rubbish". There are a few contracts I personally wouldn't have negotiated: Fitzpatrick, David Harris, Breno Giaocomini. But I understand why they were done. And, in the end, it's seems more about crying over spilled milk and supporting the investment in an opinion and using hindsight to do it rather than valid criticism.

 

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Just now, slats said:

That's the problem, see? You're not challenging me. And lol @ you calling me immature and hostile while simultaneously saying that I'm taking a personal insult to your opinions. 

You're doing little but belittling arguments against the job Maccagnan's done without making any real case for what he's done so far. You think he was smart to stay the course because 10-win season, I think he was foolish to not recognize those 10 wins were a mirage. Fitzpatrick wasn't good, he was lucky, and the GM needs to be able to tell the difference even when Manish Mehta might be saying something else. Plain and simple. It's the job of the talent evaluator in charge to recognize the talent he has and pay it accordingly. He bought into the hype of those 10 wins when a smart executive would've seen thru it. Would've made the tough calls instead of the so-called fan pleasing ones (i.e.: paying Fitzpatrick). 

Three years in, perhaps the worst roster in the league. That's my position. Your position is that he's doing things the smart way. Defend your position. Try to be mature about it. 

 

You feel belittled but that is not my intention.

I'm challenging you to provide a better solution. As I stated, I don't necessarily agree with the moves Mac has made, but I understand the circumstances and the logic behind many of them. That's not praising him, as other have stated. I went through a detailed thesis as to the chronology and the issues at the time of the moves to show how I see the logic.

"Three years in, perhaps the worst roster in the league. That's my position."  "...try to be mature about it..." was not needed and an immature comment, IMO. Try de-escalation... 

First of all, 'PERHAPS' is a huge qualifier. But I'll defend my position:

I mean, how do you blow up a 10-win team? Why would you? Sure, the schedule was soft. But...lots of people would have screamed bloody murder if the purge we're going through this year happened to the 10-win Jets. My issue was with the dogged pursuit of Fitzpatrick. But, really, they had added vets (and related contracts) and those players produced 10 wins (and should have been 11 and playoffs if the utter choking hadn't happened). So, water under the bridge.

I think they did the right thing in going for it after the 10-win year and the right thing now in blowing it up.

Posters have all these criticisms but, really, it takes time to build a winning franchise when you've had the consistent dysfunction that is the Jets franchise. Guys are quibbling about the last two years. Well, one year was a 10-win year. And, strangely, people were very supportive of the choker. So, you can't keep the choker and jettison all the veterans can you? They did what was right: keep the choker, expose him and the other expensive vets, release them after the season when it's cap-friendly to do so.

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9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Great logic.  $5M is "couch change" then when we show how decisions like this quickly add up to $90M+ you whine "that's not what I said."  

You have to pay players, you don't have to overpay by $90M or set up deals so that you are paying 2nd highest in the league dead money. 

If contracts are the same as Dead Money, then you'd have a valid point. But that is NOT the case. The Jets have some dead money, just like every other NFL team has. However, that dead money does not in any universe add up to $90M+

So, yeah, it's not whining to say that the guy took my opinion and twisted it to suit his own purposes. It's telling the truth and you know that. You may not admit it, but you know it to be true.

I have also rigorously disputed that the jets have overpaid by $90M dollars. Many of those contracts listed seem to be about market value for the players they paid. Did the players live up to the contracts, in some cases not. But that is not the same as overpaying by $90M. 

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Giacomini was not guaranteed, therefore he most certainly paid him while he was unable to pay.

How is Fitzpatrick's salary "incorrectly looked at as $7M and $5M"  ?  That is how he was paid.  We are being charged more for him this year than the Bucs.  Guess which uniform he is wearing.

How much would I pay for a veteran CB?  Certainly not double his prior salary.  Cromartie was coming off a 1-year team friendly deal, so we doubled it?  Was he getting younger?  It doesn't have any implication on the cap?  Math is apparently not your strong suit.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Giacomini was not guaranteed, therefore he most certainly paid him while he was unable to pay.

How is Fitzpatrick's salary "incorrectly looked at as $7M and $5M"  ?  That is how he was paid.  He are being charged more for him this year than the Bucs.  Guess which uniform he is wearing.

How much would I pay for a veteran CB?  Certainly not double his prior salary.  Cromartie was coming off a 1-year team friendly deal, so we doubled it?  Was he getting younger?  It doesn't have any implication on the cap?  Math is apparently not your strong suit.  

 

 

So, you would have cut Giacomini. But I thought this was about SIGNING him, not whether you cut him during his injury.

How is Fitzpatrick's salary "incorrectly looked at as $7M and $5M"  ?  That is how he was paid.  He are being charged more for him this year than the Bucs.  Guess which uniform he is wearing.

I didn't say that his salary was incorrectly looked at as $7M and $5M...  that was Sperm in his original comment.

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7 minutes ago, phill1c said:

You feel belittled but that is not my intention.

I'm challenging you to provide a better solution. As I stated, I don't necessarily agree with the moves Mac has made, but I understand the circumstances and the logic behind many of them. That's not praising him, as other have stated. I went through a detailed thesis as to the chronology and the issues at the time of the moves to show how I see the logic.

"Three years in, perhaps the worst roster in the league. That's my position."  "...try to be mature about it..." was not needed and an immature comment, IMO. Try de-escalation... 

First of all, 'PERHAPS' is a huge qualifier. But I'll defend my position:

I mean, how do you blow up a 10-win team? Why would you? Sure, the schedule was soft. But...lots of people would have screamed bloody murder if the purge we're going through this year happened to the 10-win Jets. My issue was with the dogged pursuit of Fitzpatrick. But, really, they had added vets (and related contracts) and those players produced 10 wins (and should have been 11 and playoffs if the utter choking hadn't happened). So, water under the bridge.

I think they did the right thing in going for it after the 10-win year and the right thing now in blowing it up.

Posters have all these criticisms but, really, it takes time to build a winning franchise when you've had the consistent dysfunction that is the Jets franchise. Guys are quibbling about the last two years. Well, one year was a 10-win year. And, strangely, people were very supportive of the choker. So, you can't keep the choker and jettison all the veterans can you? They did what was right: keep the choker, expose him and the other expensive vets, release them after the season when it's cap-friendly to do so.

Copying & pasting a previous post that I did not feel adequately defended your position at all does not serve to better defend your position. Golly gee, why would you do that? Ten wins! Here's why: because you recognize that the team isn't that good yet, and that your QB is worse. You understand that Fitzpatrick is not the future, and a present with Fitzpatrick isn't going to get you anywhere, either. You excuse these moves basically because you recognize the circumstance; that is that they were the easy ones. As I said, a GM has to make the tough ones. He'd've upset some fans by not resigning Fitz, sure, but it would've been -by far- the better decision for the team moving forward. That's the move where I broke from defending him, as I feel it's indefensible.  

I can understand drafting a safety at #6 overall, but that safety better be a perennial all pro, and Hackenberg better be better than Mahomes. But see, I'm not a college scout so I don't know and I'm not going to pretend to know. But the business side of things, the Fitz contract, the McCown contract, the Harris contract, the Revis contract, numerous trades that the Jets seemed to be on the short end of, acquiring comp picks, that stuff he needs to do better. And again, I don't hate the guy and hold out some hope that he can do that better (or hire an underling who can). There's a lot he needs to do better. 

Three years in, bad team. Not much of a plan in place. Holes at the most important positions on the field. Not really sure what he's doing that's so smart. And you're not telling me, either. 

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You've mentioned every possibly spurious contract and some that really are decent contracts for the players that were offered them.

But, let's be clear, contracts like Giaomini, Fitzpatrick, Gilchrist, Skrine, Revis were made because before Maccagnan arrived the cupboard was COMPLETELY BARE. For example, the Jets signed Giacomini because they had absolutely NO OTHER OPTIONS. The Jets before Macagganan HAD ABSOLUTELY THE WORST ROSTER IN THE NFL.

Now it's improved to "perhaps" the worst. I know Tom Shane will resurrect himself from his deaths by cliff diving AND being hit by a train, but the Jets have at least gotten younger and addressed the talent deficit somewhat in a number of positions: WR, OL, LB, Secondary, QB. There's still plenty of work to do, but IMO, it HAS improved somewhat with younger, homegrown players. The deadwood has been removed.

Certainly, the team is not where I'd like it to be...in some ways. But I like where the Jets are. It gives me hope.

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25 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Everytime I think I'm out, they pull me back in... (OK, I wanted in...)

  • $12m for Fitzpatrick for his sh*tty 2016 season (passed off as less when incorrectly looked at as $7m and $5m)
    • I don't think he was paying him for his sh*tty season. He did have one though.
    • He had a record-setting season prior and the options were limited.
  •  

 

 

6 minutes ago, phill1c said:

So, you would have cut Giacomini. But I thought this was about SIGNING him, not whether you cut him during his injury.

How is Fitzpatrick's salary "incorrectly looked at as $7M and $5M"  ?  That is how he was paid.  He are being charged more for him this year than the Bucs.  Guess which uniform he is wearing.

I didn't say that his salary was incorrectly looked at as $7M and $5M...  that was Sperm in his original comment.

I have no idea what the **** you are talking about.  Maybe you should practice with the quote feature before you try to play this game.  You quoted me and then cut and pasted and copied it.  

It certainly appears that you just cut and pasted what I said on Breno and said you thought this was about SIGNING him.  Idzik signed him, not this sh*thead, the sh*thead before him.  I brought up Giacomini in response to your comment that vets were smartly kept around to ease youth into positions.  Breno was on the PUP list and unable to ease anything and they could have saved $5M.  $5M that can be rolled over, by the way.  

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1 minute ago, slats said:

Copying & pasting a previous post that I did not feel adequately defended your position at all does not serve to better defend your position

Well, sorry, I thought it pretty much succinctly stated my position, from the moves being reactionary to the IK jaw breaking. I dont' really know what else I could offer.

2 minutes ago, slats said:

That's the move where I broke from defending him, as I feel it's indefensible.  

I think we're at an impasse.

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2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

But, let's be clear, contracts like Giaomini, Fitzpatrick, Gilchrist, Skrine, Revis were made because before Maccagnan arrived the cupboard was COMPLETELY BARE. For example, the Jets signed Giacomini because they had absolutely NO OTHER OPTIONS. The Jets before Macagganan HAD ABSOLUTELY THE WORST ROSTER IN THE NFL.

Giacomini signed with the Jets in March 2014.  Maccagnan was still with the Texans.  IF YOU ARE GOING TO TYPE IN CAPS GET YOUR ******* FACTS STRAIGHT. 

Or am I putting words in your mouth?

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3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

 

I have no idea what the **** you are talking about.  Maybe you should practice with the quote feature before you try to play this game.  You quoted me and then cut and pasted and copied it.  

It certainly appears that you just cut and pasted what I said on Breno and said you thought this was about SIGNING him.  Idzik signed him, not this sh*thead, the sh*thead before him.  I brought up Giacomini in response to your comment that vets were smartly kept around to ease youth into positions.  Breno was on the PUP list and unable to ease anything and they could have saved $5M.  $5M that can be rolled over, by the way.  

Yeah, I'm fully understanding your post either. It happens.

But if I understand this post better, you've mention Breno Giacomini to refute the notion that veterans were kept around to provide competition and sage advice to rookies. If that's your argument, there are plenty of other players that are good examples. I didn't specifically mention Breno Giacomini, you did. I'd say guys like Revis and Mangold and Harris are more what I'm talking about.

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1 hour ago, phill1c said:

Ok this is just crazy:

First of all, I said couch change to describe the dead money owed to Fitzpatrick. So, you've actually changed my opinion AGAIN to suit your own nefarious purposes. Seriously, can you stop doing that?

Secondly, it costs money to pay players. You've lumped all these contracts into one incoherent bash.I could defend a number of them but since you really just listed a bunch of contracts without saying why you find them "gross negligence" I'll decline to comment.

Seriously, please stop amending my opinions. I'm begging you...

The point, as anyone could see, is that one could attribute any number of these as "couch change" in the same "it's just one player" manner that you brushed off his screwing up with Snacks.

He is indefensible. 

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4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Giacomini signed with the Jets in March 2014.  Maccagnan was still with the Texans.  IF YOU ARE GOING TO TYPE IN CAPS GET YOUR ******* FACTS STRAIGHT. 

Or am I putting words in your mouth?

Let's get something straight, Sperm Edwards mentioned the Breno Giacomini signing as one of the bad signings by Maccagnan. Remember, the $90M of gross negligence??

Because I thought his post was entirely accurate, I commented on it. So, maybe you need to tell Sperm Edwards to "GET HIS ******* FACTS STRAIGHT"

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2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Let's get something straight, Sperm Edwards mentioned the Breno Giacomini signing as one of the bad signings by Maccagnan. Remember, the $90M of gross negligence??

Because I thought his post was entirely accurate, I commented on it. So, maybe you need to tell Sperm Edwards to "GET HIS ******* FACTS STRAIGHT"

Actually, I raised Giacomini in the first place.  Sperm knows who signed him.  We are talking about the wasted of keeping him for 2016 when he wasn't going to be able to play.  We kept him in 2015 because his contract carried dead money.  He was not good enough to keep around for a partial season.

2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

LOL

Breno Giacomini??!

Kinda hoisted on your own petard on that one, eh?

He wasn't removed.  His contract expired.  He could have been removed a year and $5M earlier with no appreciable difference to the team.

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5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The point, as anyone could see, is that one could attribute any number of these as "couch change" in the same "it's just one player" manner that you brushed off his screwing up with Snacks.

He is indefensible. 

First off, I don't agree he "screwed up" with Snacks. Snacks is a "nice to have" player, he's not someone I value at the money the Giants paid. And, please, if he had spent significant money on Snacks, you'd [rightly] be saying that he spent too much on one area of the team to the detriment of the roster in general.

There's no defending him because you don't want to consider ANY positives, even the accidental ones. That says more about you than it does about his performance.

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4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Actually, I raised Giacomini in the first place.  Sperm knows who signed him.  We are talking about the wasted of keeping him for 2016 when he wasn't going to be able to play.  We kept him in 2015 because his contract carried dead money.  He was not good enough to keep around for a partial season.

He wasn't removed.  His contract expired.  He could have been removed a year and $5M earlier with no appreciable difference to the team.

Kinda hair splitting wouldn't you say?

What do you mean by removed? I meant "no longer with the team".

Moreover, I'm certainly not going to invest the energy to look at the 2014 roster and say who all is no longer on the team.

There's a lot a GM can control. And then there's a bunch that he has to react to. You all seem to have the unrealistic expectation that a GM can control every situation or SHOULD be able to control it. It's a self-serving fantasy and really just provides you justification to complain about every single move that you feel didn't turn out correctly.

But that is what football fan chatrooms are all about I suppose.

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Just now, phill1c said:

Actually, I raised Giacomini in the first place.  Sperm knows who signed him.

Did you? I was responding to Sperm's listing of his contract in the "$90M gross negligence" rant.

So, who signed him? was it Maccagnan, as stated in Sperm's rant or someone else, as you contradicted?

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2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Kinda hair splitting wouldn't you say?

What do you mean by removed? I meant "no longer with the team".

Moreover, I'm certainly not going to invest the energy to look at the 2014 roster and say who all is no longer on the team.

There's a lot a GM can control. And then there's a bunch that he has to react to. You all seem to have the unrealistic expectation that a GM can control every situation or SHOULD be able to control it. It's a self-serving fantasy and really just provides you justification to complain about every single move that you feel didn't turn out correctly.

But that is what football fan chatrooms are all about I suppose.

You don't know who was on the roster when he got here, but you want to argue with us about his moves?  STFU.  If he waits a few more years ALL THE DEADWOOD WILL BE GONE.  Contracts will magically expire!

 

Just now, phill1c said:

My name is actually NOT phill, it's Paul.

You won't be here long enough for it to matter. 

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3 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Did you? I was responding to Sperm's listing of his contract in the "$90M gross negligence" rant.

So, who signed him? was it Maccagnan, as stated in Sperm's rant or someone else, as you contradicted?

Is this why you quote and then cut and paste?  So you can quote us without "quoting" us? Do you even know "someone else"'s name? It is in the thread title, but I doubt you do. 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Try $12m.

They moved around others to lower their 2016 cap numbers at the tradeoff of increasing their 2017 cap numbers so Fitz could fit. The two that occurred in the time surrounding the Fitz re-signing were Mo (made his 2016 cap number $10m after inking a $17m/yr deal) and Skrine (to push another $2.5m of his 2016 money off to the future).

The fact that the 2017 cap number next to Fitz's name is $5m is incidental. So it will not be some "oh that's long ago" when we won't be able to use that $12m next year or the year after, when there will actually be some money contracts signed. These contracts have a domino effect and don't exist in a container labeled "2016 season only" that doesn't harm the team later.

But Sperm Mac is doing a great job

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

You don't know who was on the roster when he got here, but you want to argue with us about his moves?  STFU.  If he waits a few more years ALL THE DEADWOOD WILL BE GONE.  Contracts will magically expire!

 

You won't be here long enough for it to matter. 

Yeah, if only hostility could win an argument. You'd be dominant.

True that, i'm sure some trumped up bullsh!t will ban me from here. But, until then...STFU cause you can't tell me every player on the 2014 roster (without looking it up) either.

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2 hours ago, phill1c said:

Ok, let's go sign someone of quality for that 5 million...talk about your quibbling over couch change...

$5 mil is couch change in the NFL?  You could sign a good starter on defense or the offensive line 

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