Costello: The Job is McCown's

[Scott Dierking]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

What's stopping Hack from playing well with the 2s? he's getting reps just not first team reps. in theory he could get the promotion if he deserved it. The question is what has he done with the 2's to deserve a promotion 

Today's practice he couldn't even break the huddle correctly 

http://brobible.com/sports/article/jets-qb-christian-hackenberg-huddle/

Not today's practice. And do you honestly believe he is the only qb ever to do that. I have seen it in games.

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Not today's practice. And do you honestly believe he is the only qb ever to do that. I have seen it in games.

 the question still stands what has Hack done to deserve a promotion. THe other day in the G/W he went 3-5 with 3 sacks. That's not good dude. IT's not a reason to promote a guy to first team QB

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, RSJ said:

Rex Ryan was around football his whole life too.

What's your point.  I'm not arguing that Bowles is a good coach by any means.  I'm arguing against the notion that he simply has no idea what he's doing out there.  Rex also knew what he was doing, even if he wasn't a great HC.  People just make stupid arguments against coaches - and the idea that Bowles (or Rex) can't tell who the best QB on the roster is, or that Bowles thinks McCown is good, is one of them.

[RSJ]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

 the question still stands what has Hack done to deserve a promotion. THe other day in the G/W he went 3-5 with 3 sacks. That's not good dude. IT's not a reason to promote a guy to first team QB

He also didnt throw a pick 6, and had the best play in practice. His reps were limited by his running game a bit. Again, thanks to playing with the second team. With Forte and Powell out, his RB will probably be cutting my grass next week.

[Scott Dierking]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

 the question still stands what has Hack done to deserve a promotion. THe other day in the G/W he went 3-5 with 3 sacks. That's not good dude. IT's not a reason to promote a guy to first team QB

When did I say he deserves a promotion?

I have said "it is not who starts the year, but finishes it, and how they are playing". In fact, I have laid out here why it may not be in Bowles'best interest to do so, if he has not earned the job

 

[RSJ]

2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

What's your point.  I'm not arguing that Bowles is a good coach by any means.  I'm arguing against the notion that he simply has no idea what he's doing out there.  Rex also knew what he was doing, even if he wasn't a great HC.  People just make stupid arguments against coaches - and the idea that Bowles (or Rex) can't tell who the best QB on the roster is, or that Bowles thinks McCown is good, is one of them.

Bowles has done nothing to show me that he knows how to pick a QB.

[ZachEY]

Just now, RSJ said:

Bowles has done nothing to show me that he knows how to pick a QB.

Mac has done nothing to show me that he knows how to pick a QB.  As far as I can tell, Bowles has consistently started the best player on the roster.  I've yet to see any evidence that Hack/Petty belong in the NFL.  There's plenty of reason to criticize Bowles, I don't think Mac's failures are one of them.

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, RSJ said:

He also didnt throw a pick 6, and had the best play in practice. His reps were limited by his running game a bit. Again, thanks to playing with the second team. With Forte and Powell out, his RB will probably be cutting my grass next week.

McCown threw 2 TD, Hack only the 1. McCown's TD was a long bomb too. 

There's no objective reason to elevate Hack. There's hope but that's not how meritocracies are supposed to work. 

[southparkcpa]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 the question still stands what has Hack done to deserve a promotion. THe other day in the G/W he went 3-5 with 3 sacks. That's not good dude. IT's not a reason to promote a guy to first team QB

While true.... it is simply frustrating that we cant , in the last what, 4 drafts find a QB that we need to move to a shltpile of has beens or never beens like FITZ and McGown?

The management team as put together by Woody has always been below average and the "good coaches" like BB and Parcells got out .

Bottom line is throwing McGown in accomplishes almost nothing in my view but as stated, what else can we do?

 

 

[RSJ]

7 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Mac has done nothing to show me that he knows how to pick a QB.  As far as I can tell, Bowles has consistently started the best player on the roster.  I've yet to see any evidence that Hack/Petty belong in the NFL.  There's plenty of reason to criticize Bowles, I don't think Mac's failures are one of them.

By all accounts the only difference between Hack and McCown in camp is

1) Hack shows he can make a play downfield

2) Hack holds onto the ball too long

3) McCown throws picks and Hack doesnt (which could be related to #2 and the WR's)

Yet Hack is the guy we want to see if he can be the future. All this is probably a moot point since I dont see McCown staying healthy very long. He never does.

[Dcat]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

McCown threw 2 TD, Hack only the 1. McCown's TD was a long bomb too. 

There's no objective reason to elevate Hack. There's hope but that's not how meritocracies are supposed to work. 

meritocracy?  LOL.  What planet are you on?  

[RSJ]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

McCown threw 2 TD, Hack only the 1. McCown's TD was a long bomb too. 

There's no objective reason to elevate Hack. There's hope but that's not how meritocracies are supposed to work. 

Against a corner that fell down. Again, more reps equals more opportunity. McCown was sacked twice btw. 

[C Mart]

Might be a good idea to see where things stand after PS game 3. 

[ZachEY]

16 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I will step in here. Of course, all we are doing is speculating, because the Jets have not laid out a plan for us (nor should they).

One reason Bowles may start McCown, even though he does not represent the future of the team is that he may be looking to create team continuity and structure. Before you go off on that, let me explain.

There are still a number of veterans on this team. The NFL life cycle is short. No veteran wants to hear "we are developing a player" and are throwing away W and L's this season. Any player who is worth their salt believes that they can win wants to have that opportunity. Is it a needle in a haystack situation for this team? Of course it is. But tell that to an NFL vet who busts his ass day in and day out, just to try and have a chance at a ring in this NFL. This player does not give a damn about "on the job developing".

Of course, the Jet brass and Bowles are never going to say that this is a "tank" year to players. Just does not happen that way. If Bowles is going be here in the future (and I think that is what he wants", there also has to be a belief in him from the locker room. And part of that is trust that he will do what it takes to win games now, not games in the future. Players don't give a rat's ass about next year, or further down the road. Theirs is a "now" existence.

If Bowles does not start the qb with the best chance to win games as the season starts, he will have lost the locker room again. And that is not good.

This is a well reasoned argument.  I don't agree with it.  But, it's well reasoned.

We can all agree that physically, Hack and Petty are both far superior to McCown, no?  Also, we can agree that McCown, has no track record of winning, as he has only won 11 games in 11 seasons.  So, I don't see how, unless Hack and Petty are far inferior to McCown, it would be a hard sell to start a younger player with far more upside (physically for the short term, and obviously for the long term) to the locker room?  Again, maybe McCown does give us the best chance to win, but if our best chance to win is a guy who's won 11 games in 11 seasons, I don't see how that's not more of a testament to the other two guys than anything else?

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, RSJ said:

By all accounts the only difference between Hack and McCown in camp is

1) Hack shows he can make a play downfield

2) Hack holds onto the ball too long

3) McCown throws picks and Hack doesnt (which could be related to #2 and the WR's)

Yet Hack is the guy we want to see if he can be the future. All this is probably a mute point since I dont see McCown staying healthy very long. He never does.

This is an oversimplification of an oversimplification (camp tweets), and the only argument to support it is that Todd Bowles simply doesn't know what he's watching, which is just silly.

[RSJ]

2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

This is an oversimplification of an oversimplification (camp tweets), and the only argument to support it is that Todd Bowles simply doesn't know what he's watching, which is just silly.

Its not really that silly. He does tend to favor veterans. He didn't shake up the starting lineup at all either of his two years here.

[ZachEY]

Just now, RSJ said:

Its not really that silly. He does tend to favor veterans. He didn't shake up the roster at all either of his two years here.

What good, young players have been sitting on the bench in favor of an inferior veteran?

[RSJ]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

What good, young players have been sitting on the bench in favor of an inferior veteran?

I am not going to go through the last two years starting lineups with you. I don't know what is wrong with Bowles, if anything. This is a big test year for him though so we will see,

[ZachEY]

Just now, RSJ said:

I am not going to go through the last two years starting lineups with you. I don't know what is wrong with Bowles, if anything. This is a big test year for him though so we will see,

Considering this roster, what would make you leave this season with a positive assessment of Bowles?

My feeling at the end of last year was, fire Bowles now, or give him two more years.  I don't think Belichick wins 5 games with this roster.

[NoBowles]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

What good, young players have been sitting on the bench in favor of an inferior veteran?

This really depends on who you ask. Much of our fan base thinks Geno is a franchise QB waiting for his fair chance, and that Bowles chose Fitzpatrick, who sucks, over Geno.  I don't share that opinion however, but many experts do.

[RSJ]

Just now, NoBowles said:

This really depends on who you ask. Much of our fan base thinks Geno is a franchise QB waiting for his fair chance, and that Bowles chose Fitzpatrick, who sucks, over Geno.  I don't share that opinion however, but many experts do.

I was not a Geno fan - but he was better than Fitz last year. Hard to be worse.

[NoBowles]

Just now, gEYno said:

My feeling at the end of last year was, fire Bowles now, or give him two more years.

I completely agree with this, but I don't think Woody sees it that way. And even if he was thinking that, the backlash of this season almost guarantees Woody fires Bowles this year. And Bowles knows that as well.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, NoBowles said:

This really depends on who you ask. Much of our fan base thinks Geno is a franchise QB waiting for his fair chance, and that Bowles chose Fitzpatrick, who sucks, over Geno.  I don't share that opinion however, but many experts do.

I know you've carried this torch for a long time, but can you name a poster who actually believes that?

[RSJ]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Considering this roster, what would make you leave this season with a positive assessment of Bowles?

My feeling at the end of last year was, fire Bowles now, or give him two more years.  I don't think Belichick wins 5 games with this roster.

The team has to play hard and it can't be a train wreck. No more 6 interception games, no more corners staying in there when they get beat deep 5 games in a row no more guys wide open with no one in site. The team needs to be well coached and have a game plan. 

[ZachEY]

Just now, NoBowles said:

I completely agree with this, but I don't think Woody sees it that way. And even if he was thinking that, the backlash of this season almost guarantees Woody fires Bowles this year. And Bowles knows that as well.

I'm sure Bowles knows he's likely finished, I'm just not sure what plausible outcome of 2017 based on this roster could change that.  And, if there is none, you should have just fired him in 2016.

[ZachEY]

Just now, RSJ said:

The team has to play hard and it can't be a train wreck. No more 6 interception games, no more corners staying in there when they get beat deep 5 games in a row. The team needs to be well coached and have a game plan. 

So, 2-14 with the team playing hard and some semblance of a game plan, and you keep Bowles?

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

 I don't think Belichick wins 5 games with this roster.

 

Winning 5 games with last year's roster was actually a great job. This year's roster, friggin Lombardi couldn't win 5 games with. 

btw no one is getting fired while Woody is in the UK

[RSJ]

Just now, bitonti said:

Winning 5 games with last year's roster was actually a great job. This year's roster, friggin Lombardi couldn't win 5 games with. 

btw no one is getting fired while Woody is in the UK

Give me a break. The team was a coaching disaster as well last season.

[NoBowles]

Just now, gEYno said:

I'm sure Bowles knows he's likely finished, I'm just not sure what plausible outcome of 2017 based on this roster could change that.  And, if there is none, you should have just fired him in 2016.

Agree, and this is why I think arguing about Mac, Bowles, Rex, Idzik is really just diverting attention away from the real problem with this franchise.  

Bowles is probably thinking, who gives me a better chance for a miraculous 7-9 season, and I think most people would agree that at this point that is McCown, not Hackenberg. Even if that 7-9 season only buys him one more year and cripples the franchise for 5 more years.

[RSJ]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

So, 2-14 with the team playing hard and some semblance of a game plan, and you keep Bowles?

It could happen that way. Not likely - but it could. Odd are if they play hard and smart they will get at least 5 wins. Remember this team was in the KC game AFTER Fitz threw his 5th pick. This defense can be pretty good.

[ZachEY]

Just now, NoBowles said:

Agree, and this is why I think arguing about Mac, Bowles, Rex, Idzik is really just diverting attention away from the real problem with this franchise.  

Bowles is probably thinking, who gives me a better chance for a miraculous 7-9 season, and I think most people would agree that at this point that is McCown, not Hackenberg. Even if that 7-9 season only buys him one more year and cripples the franchise for 5 more years.

Honestly, if I'm looking for a miraculous 7-9 season, I think I'm going with youth.  I know the team is going to be out-matched in most games, but if I have a guy with a monster arm, I can make big plays, and big plays win you football games - Josh McCown does not.

[NoBowles]

Just now, gEYno said:

Honestly, if I'm looking for a miraculous 7-9 season, I think I'm going with youth.  I know the team is going to be out-matched in most games, but if I have a guy with a monster arm, I can make big plays, and big plays win you football games - Josh McCown does not.

I agree with you, but Bowles appears to be a conservative defensive minded coach, even in his first year with a pretty good offense, his offense often had to come on strong at the end of the game. He seems to be of the mindset of try to eek out close games at the end, play good defense, don't turn the ball over, and make a few plays at the end of the game. If that is in fact his MO, McCown is clearly going to be his choice.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, RSJ said:

It could happen that way. Not likely - but it could. Odd are if they play hard and smart they will get at least 5 wins. Remember this team was in the KC game AFTER Fitz threw his 5th pick. This defense can be pretty good.

Maybe, but as I've said in defense of Rex's defenses at times, the best defense is an offense that can make first downs.  Without that, we ask them to make too many stops.  This defense has talented players, but it will fold just like all the others because it will have to make a game winning stop 3 times instead of one.  Also, they have no CB or passrusher.

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I agree with you, but Bowles appears to be a conservative defensive minded coach, even in his first year with a pretty good offense, his offense often had to come on strong at the end of the game. He seems to be of the mindset of try to eek out close games at the end, play good defense, don't turn the ball over, and make a few plays at the end of the game. If that is in fact his MO, McCown is clearly going to be his choice.

Yeah - but again, that could just as well be a product of who he had out there - Fitz - a QB who cannot stretch the field at all.  Now he's got a real choice, if the kids can play at all.

[RSJ]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

Maybe, but as I've said in defense of Rex's defenses at times, the best defense is an offense that can make first downs.  Without that, we ask them to make too many stops.  This defense has talented players, but it will fold just like all the others because it will have to make a game winning stop 3 times instead of one.  Also, they have no CB or passrusher.

Yeah that is true. It will boil down to whether the TE's can help move the chains to sustain possessions and the running game of course. On defense the pass rush will have to be better than last season. But that was a similar issue to what you already pointed out. Easier to get that pass rush in the fourth quarter if you haven't been on the field too much.