Anatomy of a collapse : How Jets turned into the NFL's worst team ~ ~ ~

[mtwarlock31]

15 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

How many points have the Giants scored so far ???

I'm not even looking at what the Jets have done in the preseason. This team on paper, eye test, any other test you want to give them, has no shot at averaging no more than 16 ppg on offense.  If you disagree with this, please inform me what starting unit on the Jets offense sniffs the top 25 this year.

If you think the Jets score more ppg than the Giants this season than you must be a great judge of talent. 

[56mehl56]

18 minutes ago, mtwarlock31 said:

I'm not even looking at what the Jets have done in the preseason. This team on paper, eye test, any other test you want to give them, has no shot at averaging no more than 16 ppg on offense.  If you disagree with this, please inform me what starting unit on the Jets offense sniffs the top 25 this year.

If you think the Jets score more ppg than the Giants this season than you must be a great judge of talent. 

Certainly agree, this offense will struggle to score points. My only point was looking at preseason stats is kind crazy as the Giants have yet to score a single TD.

[Jetmech]

This is brilliant.
I actually think that, at the current moment, Woody may realize this and is trying to correct this with Mac and Bowles.  My questions are:

1. Does Woody have the fortitude and conviction to stick with a long term plan?
2. Are Macc and Bowles the guys to invest consistency in?
3. Do they need a different/better organization-even if the guys are right, do they need more of them?

In the end, I stick to my prior position-if Woody was really going to do things differently, he would have extended MaccBowles, or fired them.  He was not going to eat 2 years of contract-Woody hates that.  
Maybe they had that meeting this week-Woody:  "Ok, I get it.  You don't need to win this year.   Please don't start McCown.   Just play solid defense and develop the young QBs and you get 2018."

Unfortunately, the recession of the defense alone makes you wonder about Bowles let alone the DC...

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[mtwarlock31]

13 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Certainly agree, this offense will struggle to score points. My only point was looking at preseason stats is kind crazy as the Giants have yet to score a single TD.

I am certainly not looking at preseason. I would have guessed 14 ppg 2 months ago. Nothing positive has changed from a personnel standpoint to change that.

If anything, watching this preseason makes me want to say that 14 ppg is too high.

[Stark]

19 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Belichick is a defensive coach

Parcells was a defensive coach

Carroll is a defensive coach

the Falcons coach is a defensive coach

The panthers coach is a defensive coach

 

the offensive vs. defensive HC is pretty meaningless.

Naming 5 examples, 4 of which all have one thing in common. A legit starting, franchise QB. Carroll, and Rivera  are the 2 on this list that leaned more on defense than the others, but still have a good QB. I don't count Parcells in this since he hadn't had post season success maybe 1 time since 2000.

The fact is that you have to have a QB and some offensive weapons, especially when the rules are all favored towards the QB and receivers. We don't have either. It is possible that a defensive HC could succeed but not when the GM neglects the offensive side of the ball for 5 years. We are in an offensive wasteland we have a bunch of young hopefuls at WR, Powell (if he cans stay healthy flashes and seems solid at times), TE (wtf is a TE), our O-line which was a strength is a patchwork unit, and most important of all Offensive positions QB... we don't have even a below average guy, we have bottom of the barrel quality QB's. 

 

Rant over...... 

 

Belichick is a defensive coach - Has Tom Brady at QB, arguably the best QB (taking my Pats hatred away for a second) Gronk and solid offensive game plan. Transformed team from a strong Defensive unit in his early years to now a stronger Offensively driven team. This team beat the Falcon's defensive coach after spotting them 20 pts in super bowl, enough said.

Parcells was a defensive coach - Coached in more of a run first defensive league before all the rules were modified to favor, passing - high scoring offenses.

Carroll is a defensive coach - yes, he won with defense, but he has a legit QB. Most of us would kill to have Russell Wilson as a JETS player. Lynch  and Doug Baldwin were good for them (Baldwin, better than most think). 

the Falcons coach is a defensive coach - Was gifted a team that was built as an offensively powered team, Dan Quinn came to Atlanta and only had to build a defense. He already had a Franchise QB, the top 1 or 2 WR's in Julio Jones, solid running backs.  And his D couldn't stop Brady as stated above.

The panthers coach is a defensive coach - Has CAM, Greg Olsen, Kelvin Benjamin, Jonathan Stewart. This and the Carroll statement are really only the 2 that fit your argument as far as defensive led team.

[southparkcpa]

2 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Over the past decade, in terms of W/L record, its more like 1/3 of the league is worse than, not 5 or 6 teams.

To answer your question, it doesn't mean anything, really, other than just that.  Simply an observation.  I think fanbases sometimes overstate how dire their situatiation is.  I'm not implying the Jets situation is looking rosey, but it's also has not been downright terrible.

Interestingly...  most of the country wouldn't agree, although its fairly accurate.  The run of 2009 and 2010  helped but absent some playoff success, we have been very mediocre.  One year of 11 wins or more since 1998, one division title, but as you stated, it aint rosey.

[nyjunc]

38 minutes ago, Stark said:

Naming 5 examples, 4 of which all have one thing in common. A legit starting, franchise QB. Carroll, and Rivera  are the 2 on this list that leaned more on defense than the others, but still have a good QB. I don't count Parcells in this since he hadn't had post season success maybe 1 time since 2000.

The fact is that you have to have a QB and some offensive weapons, especially when the rules are all favored towards the QB and receivers. We don't have either. It is possible that a defensive HC could succeed but not when the GM neglects the offensive side of the ball for 5 years. We are in an offensive wasteland we have a bunch of young hopefuls at WR, Powell (if he cans stay healthy flashes and seems solid at times), TE (wtf is a TE), our O-line which was a strength is a patchwork unit, and most important of all Offensive positions QB... we don't have even a below average guy, we have bottom of the barrel quality QB's. 

 

Rant over...... 

 

Belichick is a defensive coach - Has Tom Brady at QB, arguably the best QB (taking my Pats hatred away for a second) Gronk and solid offensive game plan. Transformed team from a strong Defensive unit in his early years to now a stronger Offensively driven team. This team beat the Falcon's defensive coach after spotting them 20 pts in super bowl, enough said.

Parcells was a defensive coach - Coached in more of a run first defensive league before all the rules were modified to favor, passing - high scoring offenses.

Carroll is a defensive coach - yes, he won with defense, but he has a legit QB. Most of us would kill to have Russell Wilson as a JETS player. Lynch  and Doug Baldwin were good for them (Baldwin, better than most think). 

the Falcons coach is a defensive coach - Was gifted a team that was built as an offensively powered team, Dan Quinn came to Atlanta and only had to build a defense. He already had a Franchise QB, the top 1 or 2 WR's in Julio Jones, solid running backs.  And his D couldn't stop Brady as stated above.

The panthers coach is a defensive coach - Has CAM, Greg Olsen, Kelvin Benjamin, Jonathan Stewart. This and the Carroll statement are really only the 2 that fit your argument as far as defensive led team.

Parcells won SBs w/ good, not great, QBs Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler.  he made another w/ Drew Bledsoe.

 

all of this doesn't matter, whether the coach was previously an O coach or D coach is irrelevant.  a good coach is a good coach, they adapt and find ways to win.  Parcells had us on the doorstep of the playoffs w/ Foley and O'Donnell, Cowher made a SB w/ O'Donnell and title games w/ Kordell Stewart.  

[Stark]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Parcells won SBs w/ good, not great, QBs Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler.  he made another w/ Drew Bledsoe.

 

all of this doesn't matter, whether the coach was previously an O coach or D coach is irrelevant.  a good coach is a good coach, they adapt and find ways to win.  Parcells had us on the doorstep of the playoffs w/ Foley and O'Donnell, Cowher made a SB w/ O'Donnell and title games w/ Kordell Stewart.  

in a different rules era.. that was my point. Not whether or not they were good coaches. 

[nyjunc]

5 minutes ago, Stark said:

in a different rules era.. that was my point. Not whether or not they were good coaches. 

in this era let's look at SB coaches.  we'll call this era 2004-current since 2003 is when the colts whined after their playoff loss and they changed the rules.

2004 SB:

NE- D coach

Phi- O coach

2005:

Pitt D coach

Sea O coach

2006:

Ind D coach

Chi D coach

2007:

NE D coach

NYG: O coach

2008:

Pitt: D coach

Ari: O coach

2009: 

NO O coach

Ind O coach

2010:

GB O coach

Pitt D coach

2011:

NE D

NYG O

2012:

Bal D

SF O

2013:

Sea D

Den D

2014:

NE D

Sea D

2015:

Den O

Car D

2016:

NE D

Atl D

out of 26 SB apps by these coaches 16 were D and 8 of the 13 SBs were won by D coaches

 

In NYJ history the last O coach we had was Rich Kotite, before that Bruce Coslet, before that Joe Walton.

 

 

 

[nyjunc]

23 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

Interestingly...  most of the country wouldn't agree, although its fairly accurate.  The run of 2009 and 2010  helped but absent some playoff success, we have been very mediocre.  One year of 11 wins or more since 1998, one division title, but as you stated, it aint rosey.

1997-2011 we were really good, 2012-current we have been one of the worst teams in the league overall. in this era to 6 straight years w/o a playoff app is embarrassing.

[Stark]

40 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

in this era let's look at SB coaches.  we'll call this era 2004-current since 2003 is when the colts whined after their playoff loss and they changed the rules.

2004 SB:

NE- D coach

Phi- O coach

2005:

Pitt D coach

Sea O coach

2006:

Ind D coach

Chi D coach

2007:

NE D coach

NYG: O coach

2008:

Pitt: D coach

Ari: O coach

2009: 

NO O coach

Ind O coach

2010:

GB O coach

Pitt D coach

2011:

NE D

NYG O

2012:

Bal D

SF O

2013:

Sea D

Den D

2014:

NE D

Sea D

2015:

Den O

Car D

2016:

NE D

Atl D

out of 26 SB apps by these coaches 16 were D and 8 of the 13 SBs were won by D coaches

 

In NYJ history the last O coach we had was Rich Kotite, before that Bruce Coslet, before that Joe Walton.

 

 

 

And all 8 had legit franchise Qb's

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

52 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

Interestingly...  most of the country wouldn't agree, although its fairly accurate.  The run of 2009 and 2010  helped but absent some playoff success, we have been very mediocre.  One year of 11 wins or more since 1998, one division title, but as you stated, it aint rosey.

The run of 2009 and 2010 did not help. The run of 2009 and 2010 is precisely why we are where we are now. The only thing worse than a team that has nobody in charge, no quarterback, and no sustainable talent base is one that doesn't know it.

[nyjunc]

Just now, Stark said:

And all 8 had legit franchise Qb's

NYG had a mediocre at best QB in 2007 and won both their SBs b/c of defense but again that doesn't matter.  the point is being a good HC doesn't come w/ the requirement of being a good offensive coach.

[Stark]

Just now, nyjunc said:

NYG had a mediocre at best QB in 2007 and won both their SBs b/c of defense but again that doesn't matter.  the point is being a good HC doesn't come w/ the requirement of being a good offensive coach.

That is true, Eli is mediocre a lot of the time. They had a strong D in the Super Bowls. I agree being a good HC doesn't mean you have to be an offensive coach. In this age of football though, a good offense seems to be more crucial than a good defense. Especially since the rules are changing the way defenders, cover, tackle, and limits their physical play. 

Thats all I am saying. In our next HC search I would hope that we would find an offensive minded HC that hires a good Defensive Coordinator rather than a Defensive HC that wants to play 1970's, 80's, 90's football.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

4 minutes ago, Stark said:

That is true, Eli is mediocre a lot of the time. They had a strong D in the Super Bowls. I agree being a good HC doesn't mean you have to be an offensive coach. In this age of football though, a good offense seems to be more crucial than a good defense. Especially since the rules are changing the way defenders, cover, tackle, and limits their physical play. 

Thats all I am saying. In our next HC search I would hope that we would find an offensive minded HC that hires a good Defensive Coordinator rather than a Defensive HC that wants to play 1970's, 80's, 90's football.

These things are not important. Define the pool of candidates and pick the smartest guy.

[southparkcpa]

5 hours ago, nyjunc said:

NYG had a mediocre at best QB in 2007 and won both their SBs b/c of defense but again that doesn't matter.  the point is being a good HC doesn't come w/ the requirement of being a good offensive coach.

Who cares.....   we are a bottom 5 team and you are fixated on the Giants. 

[southparkcpa]

1 hour ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

The run of 2009 and 2010 did not help. The run of 2009 and 2010 is precisely why we are where we are now. The only thing worse than a team that has nobody in charge, no quarterback, and no sustainable talent base is one that doesn't know it.

 

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

NYG had a mediocre at best QB in 2007 and won both their SBs b/c of defense but again that doesn't matter.  the point is being a good HC doesn't come w/ the requirement of being a good offensive coach.

Miss Lonely Hearts ..... please explain it to NYC, he seems to think the Jets are as good as the Giants. 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

3 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

 

Miss Lonely Hearts ..... please explain it to NYC, he seems to think the Jets are as good as the Giants. 

The Jets had a much better defense in 2009 than the Giants did in either of their super bowl seasons. The difference is that Eli Manning is a quarterback and Tom Coughlin is an adult.

[southparkcpa]

37 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

The Jets had a much better defense in 2009 than the Giants did in either of their super bowl seasons. The difference is that Eli Manning is a quarterback and Tom Coughlin is an adult.

Agreed. I did notice you didn't mention that they were Lucky and we weren't.  You astutely mentioned 2 of at least 4 solid tangible reasons winning teams create their own luck.  

[Ken Schroy]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:08 PM, nyjunc said:

Belichick is a defensive coach

Parcells was a defensive coach

Carroll is a defensive coach

the Falcons coach is a defensive coach

The panthers coach is a defensive coach

 

the offensive vs. defensive HC is pretty meaningless.

Except when said defensive coach is an idiot.

[joewilly12]

It all started 48 years ago...............bad coaches............bad drafts.................bad free agents.............bad QB's...........and here we are today continuing the tradition. 

[C Mart]

Dennis Waszak Jr. (@DWAZ73)

8/25/17, 4:51 PM

Plenty of negatives have been well-documented (and well-deserved) this summer for #Jets. Here are some positives:

1) Ever since Quincy Enunwa went down for the season, Robby Anderson has stepped up his game after slow start. Speed to burn. 

2) Two most pleasant surprises: TE Austin Seferian-Jenkins & CB Dexter McDougle have made big physical changes & have had solid camps. 

3) Mo Wilkerson has embraced leadership role & Sheldon Richardson has been very businesslike on field. Two very positive developments. 

4) The two rookie safeties have mostly been as good as advertised, and Maye might be even better than expected so far. 

5) Defense is noticeably faster so far, a point of emphasis for Bowles/Maccagnan in offseason. Kevin Greene says they'll get after QBs 

6) There's looseness about team, a close-knit vibe. Whether that actually helps on field, we'll see, but there's clear culture change. 

 

[Tinstar]

11 hours ago, C Mart said:

Dennis Waszak Jr. (@DWAZ73)

8/25/17, 4:51 PM

Plenty of negatives have been well-documented (and well-deserved) this summer for #Jets. Here are some positives:

1) Ever since Quincy Enunwa went down for the season, Robby Anderson has stepped up his game after slow start. Speed to burn. 

2) Two most pleasant surprises: TE Austin Seferian-Jenkins & CB Dexter McDougle have made big physical changes & have had solid camps. 

3) Mo Wilkerson has embraced leadership role & Sheldon Richardson has been very businesslike on field. Two very positive developments. 

4) The two rookie safeties have mostly been as good as advertised, and Maye might be even better than expected so far. 

5) Defense is noticeably faster so far, a point of emphasis for Bowles/Maccagnan in offseason. Kevin Greene says they'll get after QBs 

6) There's looseness about team, a close-knit vibe. Whether that actually helps on field, we'll see, but there's clear culture change. 

 

Appreciate what you at @C Mart

[Long Island Leprechaun]

On 8/24/2017 at 3:46 PM, glenn31 said:

LOL... And if the Bible was written on the Iberian Peninsula Christians would be praying to "Hey-Soos"

But reality gave us "Jesus" & and reality also gave us the abomination that was the <32 game tenure of Rex Ryan the Bills HC. Also love how he rallied the team last season only to be fired before Black Monday.

And let me not even get into how the D was firing on hopeful cylinders under Schwartz and took a nose dive into the rubble under Rex. ANY Bills fan will tell you that.

And of course him allowing his idiot brother to run amuck up there.

Man please... Run that game on someone with a brain deficiency, or a Hackenberg believer lol

You beat poor nyjunc down already; now you're just being a bully.

[kelly]

15 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

It all started 48 years ago...............bad coaches............bad drafts.................bad free agents.............bad QB's...........and here we are today continuing the tradition. 

so.. r u saying we're predictable ?... or consistent ? ?     

[glenn31]

1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

You beat poor nyjunc down already; now you're just being a bully.

Hahaha... Love your avatar btw

[joewilly12]

16 minutes ago, kelly said:

so.. r u saying we're predictable ?... or consistent ? ?     

Both in a bad way. 

[kelly]

12 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Both in a bad way. 

agreed..

 

[C Mart]

1 hour ago, Tinstar said:

Appreciate what you at @C Mart

As a great philosopher once said, "there's alot of hooey in here"

[Pcola]

13 hours ago, C Mart said:

Dennis Waszak Jr. (@DWAZ73)

8/25/17, 4:51 PM

Plenty of negatives have been well-documented (and well-deserved) this summer for #Jets. Here are some positives:

1) Ever since Quincy Enunwa went down for the season, Robby Anderson has stepped up his game after slow start. Speed to burn. 

2) Two most pleasant surprises: TE Austin Seferian-Jenkins & CB Dexter McDougle have made big physical changes & have had solid camps. 

3) Mo Wilkerson has embraced leadership role & Sheldon Richardson has been very businesslike on field. Two very positive developments. 

4) The two rookie safeties have mostly been as good as advertised, and Maye might be even better than expected so far. 

5) Defense is noticeably faster so far, a point of emphasis for Bowles/Maccagnan in offseason. Kevin Greene says they'll get after QBs 

6) There's looseness about team, a close-knit vibe. Whether that actually helps on field, we'll see, but there's clear culture change. 

 

To be honest with you, if we could get average to plus performance from the OL and QB, we would be a very good team.  Of course these are the two positions neglected by the last three GMs (since 2006).

[section314]

23 minutes ago, C Mart said:

As a great philosopher once said, "there's alot of hooey in here"

Colonel Sherman Potter?

[Tinstar]

2 hours ago, Pcola said:

To be honest with you, if we could get average to plus performance from the OL and QB, we would be a very good team.  Of course these are the two positions neglected by the last three GMs (since 2006).

Why do fans continue to repeat this lie as truth  ?  Every single player on this roster at both positions have been signed by the current or former GM(s)  .Furthermore, said GM(s) have used picks from the 1st (QB) and  2nd round (OL) onward in an effort to revitalize these positions They have brought in UDFA and traded for prospects . The fact that some of these prospects haven't worked out to the fans or Media's satisfaction doesn't make the lie a truth .

Quote

 

 

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, Tinstar said:

Why do fans continue to repeat this lie as truth  ?  Every single player on this roster at both positions have been signed by the current or former GM(s)  .Furthermore, said GM(s) have used picks from the 1st (QB) and  2nd round (OL) onward in an effort to revitalize these positions They have brought in UDFA and traded for prospects . The fact that some of these prospects haven't worked out to the fans or Media's satisfaction doesn't make the lie a truth .

 

9 straight years of defensure first rounders. So what first at QB? Sanchez? The Jets have criminally neglected the offense.

[AFJF]

42 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

9 straight years of defensure first rounders. So what first at QB? Sanchez? The Jets have criminally neglected the offense.

True in the past.  This season they drafted two WRs, a TE and a RB who can do it all out of the backfield.

That's up to four new targets for QBs to throw to.

[Jetscode1]

In today's NFL, teams without a slightly above average QB have very little hope.  Teams with bottom three QBs in the league for multiple years will consistently fall to the bottom.  That's not the only reason the Jets fell so hard (lack of complementary football + piss poor special teams) but it is by far the biggest contributor.