Sheldon Traded

[rangerous]

8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Well not without any of them being actual edge rushers, which is still a need even with all 3 of them on the roster.

And it's not just the cap (though you are totally correct there as well). It's that they never should have used 1st round picks on 4 of them over a 5 year span in the first place. Even with 3 of the 4 panning out as above-average NFL starters, it's still piss-poor allocation of limited resources.

You draft one such player -- maybe two. Half the benefit of taking a really good one in round 1 is to not have to burn still more 1st rounders on the same position later. But we did just that -- three more times.

It's not enough for any of them to pan out as pros to consider it a good pick for the team, and is the critical flaw with this "truly best available player regardless of position" strategy. Even if it leads to drating a better player, it's not necessarily the best player for the team unless a prospect checks off all 3 boxes for BAP + team need + positional value. Just like Oakland wouldn't touch a 1st round QB in 2018 no matter how off the charts the prospect's "BAP" value may be.

good point about the allocation of resources.  i don't believe it would have been smart to keep wilk, leo, and shelly so shelly turned into the odd man out.  imo wilk should have been the one to go but that's water under the bridge.  i don't think any gm goes strictly BAP.  they have to consider the team's needs. leo was probably head and shoulders above any other potential "need" player that he had to be taken.  conversely, lee seems to be more of a need player.  we'll see about adams but using the no 6 pick on a safety is a little strange.

[Sperm Edwards]

6 hours ago, BCJet said:

I dont think it would have been wise to invest a long term contract in another 3-4 Lineman, which is why I said we couldn't/wouldnt resign him.  

I also think that Mac does actually have a plan which is to consistently try to bring in high character guys, and sheldon clearly isn't a fit with that plan. Is that the right strategy, I dont know, because it likely influenced the decision to pass on a player like Dalvin Cook, but that is why I never saw SR as a fit here after 2017.

Drafting, bringing in, and extending high character guys like Mo, Revis, Fitzpatrick, Lee, Mauldin, offering B.Marshall an extension this past February...you mean those types? 

You might try judging him on what he's done rather than what you want to believe he's done. 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, rangerous said:

good point about the allocation of resources.  i don't believe it would have been smart to keep wilk, leo, and shelly so shelly turned into the odd man out.  imo wilk should have been the one to go but that's water under the bridge.  i don't think any gm goes strictly BAP.  they have to consider the team's needs. leo was probably head and shoulders above any other potential "need" player that he had to be taken.  conversely, lee seems to be more of a need player.  we'll see about adams but using the no 6 pick on a safety is a little strange.

The last thing in the world Leo did was fill a team need. He did not have to be taken, as he was not heads & shoulders above what we already had. Certainly not #6 pick in the country value above what we already had (or what he believed we already had; don't forget, in addition to Mo & Sheldon, he also exercised the 5th year option for Coples before drafting Leo.

[rangerous]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The last thing in the world Leo did was fill a team need. He did not have to be taken, as he was not heads & shoulders above what we already had. Certainly not #6 pick in the country value above what we already had (or what he believed we already had; don't forget, in addition to Mo & Sheldon, he also exercised the 5th year option for Coples before drafting Leo.

i'm not saying leo was head and shoulders above wilk or shelly but he may have been head and shoulders above any other player left in the draft.  about the only thing they could do was choose leo or trade down.  if mac didn't try to trade out of the pick then there could be an issue.  it was almost like the gholston situation except leo can play.

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i'm not saying leo was head and shoulders above wilk or shelly but he may have been head and shoulders above any other player left in the draft.  about the only thing they could do was choose leo or trade down.  if mac didn't try to trade out of the pick then there could be an issue.  it was almost like the gholston situation except leo can play.

There was an opportunity to move up to #2 for a QB, since Tennessee was very much fielding offers, and there was an opportunity to take a demon edge rusher.

As good as Leo is, and as much as I love having him on the team, the reality is he didn't move the needle 1/10 as much as either of those two would have done.

And before you complain about the compensation it would have cost to move up, those precious picks we just couldn't surrender to move up were then used on the likes of Lee, Hackenberg, and/or D.Smith. But it doesn't end there: we also further used 2 picks in that draft on Petty that would have been used differently, are tanking this full season on purpose with Josh McCown after wasting last year on Ryan Fitzpatrick, and are about to spend yet another high 1st round pick (possibly more than that, if we need to trade up) on the position.

This isn't a popular opinion, but Leo was a cop out pick, for all the credit that's given to him for making it. It was an easy one to make without worry about taking a bust, but he didn't get us any closer to a championship.

[Lizard King]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There was an opportunity to move up to #2 for a QB, since Tennessee was very much fielding offers, and there was an opportunity to take a demon edge rusher.

As good as Leo is, and as much as I love having him on the team, the reality is he didn't move the needle 1/10 as much as either of those two would have done.

And before you complain about the compensation it would have cost to move up, those precious picks we just couldn't surrender to move up were then used on the likes of Lee, Hackenberg, and/or D.Smith. But it doesn't end there: we also further used 2 picks in that draft on Petty that would have been used differently, are tanking this full season on purpose with Josh McCown after wasting last year on Ryan Fitzpatrick, and are about to spend yet another high 1st round pick (possibly more than that, if we need to trade up) on the position.

This isn't a popular opinion, but Leo was a cop out pick, for all the credit that's given to him for making it. It was an easy one to make without worry about taking a bust, but he didn't get us any closer to a championship.

Leo was probably the easiest pick that Mac could have made in that situation. Nobody picked after him has had anything close to the level of impact that Leo has had. 2015 was not a good year for drafting and the obvious pick literally fell into our laps. 

[rangerous]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There was an opportunity to move up to #2 for a QB, since Tennessee was very much fielding offers, and there was an opportunity to take a demon edge rusher.

As good as Leo is, and as much as I love having him on the team, the reality is he didn't move the needle 1/10 as much as either of those two would have done.

And before you complain about the compensation it would have cost to move up, those precious picks we just couldn't surrender to move up were then used on the likes of Lee, Hackenberg, and/or D.Smith. But it doesn't end there: we also further used 2 picks in that draft on Petty that would have been used differently, are tanking this full season on purpose with Josh McCown after wasting last year on Ryan Fitzpatrick, and are about to spend yet another high 1st round pick (possibly more than that, if we need to trade up) on the position.

This isn't a popular opinion, but Leo was a cop out pick, for all the credit that's given to him for making it. It was an easy one to make without worry about taking a bust, but he didn't get us any closer to a championship.

i agree mariota was the right guy to pick.  it's hard to know what would have pried the pick from the titans and what assets the jets had to make it work beyond the 6 pick. i suppose they could have thrown in future picks but to me that really can hurt a teams future.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Lizard King said:

Leo was probably the easiest pick that Mac could have made in that situation. Nobody picked after him has had anything close to the level of impact that Leo has had. 2015 was not a good year for drafting and the obvious pick literally fell into our laps. 

You mean like the guy picked 2 slots later that just led the NFL in sacks, for the team that nearly just won the SB? Sorry, but he's had more impact than Leo and would have had even more disproportionate impact on the Jets, who already had 2 premiere talent+accomplished players in the same mold. 

And if Leo was so head & shoulders above the rest of the class and it was so obvious, then surely a team with Geno Smith as its starting QB, and suffering through the rest of the draft failures from recent years, could have made back a killing by trading down a bit. 

[ZachEY]

8 minutes ago, Lizard King said:

Leo was probably the easiest pick that Mac could have made in that situation. Nobody picked after him has had anything close to the level of impact that Leo has had. 2015 was not a good year for drafting and the obvious pick literally fell into our laps. 

Vic Beasley and the Atlanta Falcons are not sure if you're serious...

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, rangerous said:

i agree mariota was the right guy to pick.  it's hard to know what would have pried the pick from the titans and what assets the jets had to make it work beyond the 6 pick. i suppose they could have thrown in future picks but to me that really can hurt a teams future.

The point is the team's future is already hurt by staying away from such a move. We've lost/wasted multiple seasons already, we used 2 picks on Petty, we used a 2nd rounder on Hackenberg, and are about to use another high #1 pick on another QB (but don't yet know which, and fans and the FO are left resorting to rooting for losses before the season even begins).

In other words, you don't necessarily escape paying the piper by failing to pay the piper now.

And here's the crazy part: if he didn't pan out, then 2 or 3 seasons later we'd still suck and could take another shot at drafting another QB. But the "what might have been" would have been wasted seasons anyway, as these recent years have shown.

[Lizard King]

24 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You mean like the guy picked 2 slots later that just led the NFL in sacks, for the team that nearly just won the SB? Sorry, but he's had more impact than Leo and would have had even more disproportionate impact on the Jets, who already had 2 premiere talent+accomplished players in the same mold. 

And if Leo was so head & shoulders above the rest of the class and it was so obvious, then surely a team with Geno Smith as its starting QB, and suffering through the rest of the draft failures from recent years, could have made back a killing by trading down a bit. 

 

19 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Vic Beasley and the Atlanta Falcons are not sure if you're serious...

Was being sarcastic

[Sperm Edwards]

26 minutes ago, Lizard King said:

 

Was being sarcastic

Clearly, 2 of us couldn't tell. The kind of response I'm used to seeing, only serious.  

[Lizard King]

7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Clearly, 2 of us couldn't tell. The kind of response I'm used to seeing, only serious.  

Mac isn't going to get any sympathy from this guy. 

[Pointdexter]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The point is the team's future is already hurt by staying away from such a move. We've lost/wasted multiple seasons already, we used 2 picks on Petty, we used a 2nd rounder on Hackenberg, and are about to use another high #1 pick on another QB (but don't yet know which, and fans and the FO are left resorting to rooting for losses before the season even begins).

In other words, you don't necessarily escape paying the piper by failing to pay the piper now.

And here's the crazy part: if he didn't pan out, then 2 or 3 seasons later we'd still suck and could take another shot at drafting another QB. But the "what might have been" would have been wasted seasons anyway, as these recent years have shown.

This is such a good and astute post. Failing to trade up has cost us more in draft resources than what we would've paid to jump up ever could have.

This idea that the Leo pick is some amazing feather in Macc's cap is nonsense. A great player yes, but he was not the player to make this a better team. A QB or Beasley was the right move. If Leo was so valued by other teams, I fail to understand how he fell to 6 or why Macc wasn't able to parlay a trade back into a bounty of picks. 

Rinse and repeat this past draft with Adams. It nauseates me that Macc has no conception of how to make us a better team. Macc sold us that he couldn't pass on a freaking safety at 6 bc he's a generational type talent. Bullspit. He's not half the prospect as next year's top safety Derwin James. How ppl keep defending the OBVIOUS blunders of Macc, I'll never understand. 

[kdels62]

49 minutes ago, Pointdexter said:

This is such a good and astute post. Failing to trade up has cost us more in draft resources than what we would've paid to jump up ever could have.

This idea that the Leo pick is some amazing feather in Macc's cap is nonsense. A great player yes, but he was not the player to make this a better team. A QB or Beasley was the right move. If Leo was so valued by other teams, I fail to understand how he fell to 6 or why Macc wasn't able to parlay a trade back into a bounty of picks. 

Rinse and repeat this past draft with Adams. It nauseates me that Macc has no conception of how to make us a better team. Macc sold us that he couldn't pass on a freaking safety at 6 bc he's a generational type talent. Bullspit. He's not half the prospect as next year's top safety Derwin James. How ppl keep defending the OBVIOUS blunders of Macc, I'll never understand. 

Arguing Macc's blunders is easy barking up the Jamal Adams tree is dumb. He was considered a top 5 talent and to some he was a top 1 talent.

[Pointdexter]

25 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Arguing Macc's blunders is easy barking up the Jamal Adams tree is dumb. He was considered a top 5 talent and to some he was a top 1 talent.

Really? Dumb because this "#1 talent" didn't go til #6 (to the Jets of course), or because he plays a position that was never going to move the needle on a team devoid of QB and offense, or because he's been avg at best in the preseason, or because he's inferior in every way to next yrs top safety prospect? 

Yup, got me on this one. Trying to find holes in the draft Adams logic is certainly dumb and a futile exercise. 

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, Pointdexter said:

This is such a good and astute post. Failing to trade up has cost us more in draft resources than what we would've paid to jump up ever could have.

This idea that the Leo pick is some amazing feather in Macc's cap is nonsense. A great player yes, but he was not the player to make this a better team. A QB or Beasley was the right move. If Leo was so valued by other teams, I fail to understand how he fell to 6 or why Macc wasn't able to parlay a trade back into a bounty of picks. 

Rinse and repeat this past draft with Adams. It nauseates me that Macc has no conception of how to make us a better team. Macc sold us that he couldn't pass on a freaking safety at 6 bc he's a generational type talent. Bullspit. He's not half the prospect as next year's top safety Derwin James. How ppl keep defending the OBVIOUS blunders of Macc, I'll never understand. 

on face value it does seem like a good point. i also agree about the leo pick and the adams pick only so-so as far as the team goes. on the other hand there are just so many other things that need to go right for a team to be successful.  heck we've just seen the bengals and the ravens have seriously down years and they have arguably top 10 qb's.  Same thing with pittsburgh and just when is the 92 million dollar man stafford going to lead his team to more than just a playoff spot.  imo the qb spot is highly overvalued because his performance is extremely dependent on the rest of the team doing well.  but one position does have to have the highest value so qb make sense.

as for what it takes to make the team better?  it's just not the usual physical metrics.  the successful players need to be able to play at a consistently high level game in and game out . the game is all about executing plays.  there's a good reason why lombardi had a small playbook but his teams could execute any of the plays to perfection in their sleep.

[Pointdexter]

You may have a point there about the QB. I think the bigger thing is that, in today's nfl, you have to have a good offense and score points. Good QB play is usually the best way to make that happen, but certainly not the only way. A dominant OL and running game can certainly go a long ways. 

I still for the life of me can't figure out why we've ignored the offensive side of the ball for so long.

I know I'm a broken record, and merely an armchair QB, but watch what Deshaun Watson and Dalvin Cook achieve this year on their respective teams. We could've had them both and then let's revisit the safety-safety strategy of Macc.

[Lil Woody]

Just now, Pointdexter said:

You may have a point there about the QB. I think the bigger thing is that, in today's nfl, you have to have a good offense and score points. Good QB play is usually the best way to make that happen, but certainly not the only way. A dominant OL and running game can certainly go a long ways. 

I still for the life of me can't figure out why we've ignored the offensive side of the ball for so long.

I know I'm a broken record, and merely an armchair QB, but watch what Deshaun Watson and Dalvin Cook achieve this year on their respective teams. We could've had them both and then let's revisit the safety-safety strategy of Macc.

Or we could look at Derek Barnett and Ju-Ju SS. Or Mike Williams and Ryan Anderson.  Or any combo of players.  

Why are we locked in to crying about Watson? There were many better players out there to bitch about us passing on.

[Mogglez]

On 9/2/2017 at 10:53 AM, Bugg said:

Some sportswriters move on to bigger and better things. Some spend their days pointlessly arguing with people(imaginary friends?) on twitter.  

The ticked off people at 1 Jets Dr-are any the same people at 1 Jets Dr who answered the phone when Richardson stepped on his dick the  2 times we know about?

 

On 9/2/2017 at 0:55 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

**** him. A year ago this fool was also harping just as hard on bringing back Fitzpatrick. Before that he was harping on how oh so awful it was that the Jets didn't "do the right thing" and extend Mo. 

Let this douche explain how a DL made up of 3 DTs and a NT is supposed to sack any moderately-mobile QB in the absence of blitzing or glue-like coverage in the secondary. You sign TWO of them. They're both playing end on a 3-man line so we can rush a ~250-lb OLB every down, or they're both playing inside so we can have a pair of quicker ends to rush the QB every down.

Sheldon absolutely was one of the 2-3 (and quite possibly the #1) most talented player on the team. But he's not so heads & shoulders above 2 other players the team already has who play the same position(s). If they hit on another position starter with the Seahawks' pick, or use it as ammo to trade up for a franchise QB, it's not even close how this was the right thing to do.

1. Immediately saves $6m net, assuming Kearney is kept. Actually it saves closer to $6.5m net since Kearse being here will bump the #51 cap player (making ~$500k) down to #52, thus removing him from the cap tally. Call it $2m/yr over the next 3 years. 
2. Future saves the giant contract Sheldon would want (anyone's guess what that will be if he has a bounce back season plus another year of cap/FA inflation). Figure somewhere between $14-18m/yr over the next 3 years ($42-54m). Then enjoy the risk of Sheldon Richardson with 2 years guaranteed money. Prepare for zero production in 2018 for all that cash.
3. Get a 2nd round pick -- if the player pans out as a starter, it'll save minimum $20m (possibly much more, depending upon the position) over the following 3 years, over filling the position with a veteran starter.

Basically over a 3 year span, not letting any of the Jets' current best players go - i.e. keeping all 3 of Leo and Mo and Sheldon - would cost some $75m more over a 3 yr span ($25m/yr) and quite possibly a lot more. Plus Kearse is a freebie acquisition on top of that, with $0 guaranteed, should we decide to keep or cut him.

So I'd say Mehta's math skills are no better than his personal or journalism skills.

*UPDATE*

This is our "lead" beat reporter folks.  Doubled down on the unprofessional dickery tonight when a fan called him out (again):

I can't believe he still has a job. 

For the record, I'm not believing a word this swarmy little rat writes.  

[Bugg]

13 hours ago, Lil Woody said:

Or we could look at Derek Barnett and Ju-Ju SS. Or Mike Williams and Ryan Anderson.  Or any combo of players.  

Why are we locked in to crying about Watson? There were many better players out there to bitch about us passing on.

Because, crazy idea, it's the most important position on the field, Watson has shown himself to be a great NCAA QB with zero baggage. Or pick a decent edge pass rusher or an OT, but a goddamn safety and 2 at that? WTF? 

[Dunnie]

Because, crazy idea, it's the most important position on the field, Watson has shown himself to be a great NCAA QB with zero baggage. Or pick a decent edge pass rusher or an OT, but a goddamn safety and 2 at that? WTF? 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Lil Woody]

8 hours ago, Bugg said:

Because, crazy idea, it's the most important position on the field, Watson has shown himself to be a great NCAA QB with zero baggage. Or pick a decent edge pass rusher or an OT, but a goddamn safety and 2 at that? WTF? 

Watson throws about as consistent a deep ball as Fitztragic.  He can dime it occasionally, and tends to save it for clutch moments.....but more often than not it lands nowhere close to the target.  Not that it is the be all end all on QB play.  He might be fine, plenty of bad long ball throwers carved out a pretty good career in this game.  Stafford, Cousins and even Brady have had several bad years in that area.  Watson is an incredibly likeable prospect, but his game tape did not look all that impressive.  NCAA magic is a wonderful thing.  It rarely makes the jump to the NFL though.  I'd be willing to bet Watson is going to be consistently dealing with a high interception rate.

[Savage69]

Nice Sheldon interview at Seahawks facility   http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/nfl/seattle-seahawks/seahawks-insider-blog/arti

[Dunnie]

Nice Sheldon interview at Seahawks facility   http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/nfl/seattle-seahawks/seahawks-insider-blog/arti

link broken


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[jamesr]

On 04/09/2017 at 0:51 AM, Pointdexter said:

watch what Deshaun Watson and Dalvin Cook achieve this year on their respective teams. We could've had them both and then let's revisit the safety-safety strategy of Macc.

What Watson and Cook do on their respective teams does not have any connection to what they'd have done on the Jets. Different situations entirely.

If we'd drafted Zeke last year would he have led the league in rushing for us? Or would Prescott have won 10+ games here?

[Pointdexter]

3 hours ago, jamesr said:

What Watson and Cook do on their respective teams does not have any connection to what they'd have done on the Jets. Different situations entirely.

If we'd drafted Zeke last year would he have led the league in rushing for us? Or would Prescott have won 10+ games here?

I keep reading things like this and don't get the thinking at all. If they're players, they're players. Should we not want to add real talent because our surrounding cast sucks? Isn't that how we get better by adding legitimate talent?

And it's not like you could run Hackenberg out there in Houston or slow-ass Forte in Minnesota and expect them to be successful. They would suck at those respective teams too, just like here. 

[Kleckineau]

After trading arguably the best player on the team inevitably there will be 2-3 injuries along the DL this season.

Its the Jets. Its what happens. 

[jamesr]

2 hours ago, Pointdexter said:

I keep reading things like this and don't get the thinking at all. If they're players, they're players. Should we not want to add real talent because our surrounding cast sucks? Isn't that how we get better by adding legitimate talent?

And it's not like you could run Hackenberg out there in Houston or slow-ass Forte in Minnesota and expect them to be successful. They would suck at those respective teams too, just like here. 

I never said we shouldn't add them because of a poor supporting cast. You said we should compare Watson or Cook with our guys to see which was the better pick. I merely pointed out that you can't compare player performances in a vacuum.

I still read here from time to time that we screwed up by taking O'Brien over Marino, because Marino did so well in Miami. Who's to say, if we had drafted him, that we wouldn't be sitting here moaning about how we should have taken O'Brien?

[ljr]

7 hours ago, jamesr said:

I never said we shouldn't add them because of a poor supporting cast. You said we should compare Watson or Cook with our guys to see which was the better pick. I merely pointed out that you can't compare player performances in a vacuum.

I still read here from time to time that we screwed up by taking O'Brien over Marino, because Marino did so well in Miami. Who's to say, if we had drafted him, that we wouldn't be sitting here moaning about how we should have taken O'Brien?

Lolol ... Even the Cowboys 2016 OL would not have been able to keep O'Brien from taking a beating down in Miami for his career

[joewilly12]

Seattle defense is going to be nasty with SR up front where he belongs. 

[RutgersJetFan]

People really argue with Mehta on twitter? Holy crap get a life.

[joewilly12]

Seattle has the best DL in the NFL. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

Best player on the team, traded for roughly a high third. That's just good value anyway you slice it. 

[joewilly12]

Sheldon putting pressure on Aaron Rodgers.............