Bowles can't name backup QB

[#27TheDominator]

His job is not to get pushed around.  Especially by guys with contracts he drafted.  Todd Bowles pushed someone around?  Whatever floats your boat.  OTOH, the post I was responding to claimed that Maccagnan's plan was Fitzpatrick for 2016 and 2017 transitioning to Hackenberg in 2018.  Stupid a plan as that may be, can you agree that if that was your plan signing Fitzpatrick for one year does not further it? 

[jetrider]

19 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

well, when you can't even name a starter for preseason games, this is easier to understand.

Good teams spend the preseason fine-tuning their offense.

Jets spend the entire offseason/preseason playing pin-the-tail-on-the-undeveloped QB. It continues thru regular season too. Year after year after f'king year.   

Blowes is being truthful, he can't tell one untouched canvas from the other.

[jetrider]

19 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

When every pick he's made (other than Leonard Williams) seems to range between off-the-team, sucks, and marginally competent... I think it's safe to call all of his picks busts, except the one gift-wrapped by Scot McClown from the Redskins.

When every student flunks a course it's time to question the teacher(s).

[Integrity28]

38 minutes ago, jetrider said:

When every student flunks a course it's time to question the teacher(s).

Gifted students excel, in spite of the teachers.

Regardless, nobody involved with the Jets is doing their job well. No real point in splitting hairs over the cause/effect or faults. It's all of them.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Gifted students excel, in spite of the teachers.

Regardless, nobody involved with the Jets is doing their job well. No real point in splitting hairs over the cause/effect or faults. It's all of them.

Does anyone think that Todd Bowles won't have a more successful "post-Jets" career than the majority of Macc's draft picks?

[Bleedin Green]

2 hours ago, nycdan said:

Sadly, this seems to have become the new norm in our society.  Say things no rational person believes enough times and attack anyone that uses facts to disagree.

Are you suggesting that society has learned it's new norm from message boards? 

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, jetrider said:

When every student flunks a course it's time to question the teacher(s).

Lorenzo Mauldin is Actually Good, only Bowels isnt coaching him to be good. Maccc 4 life

[Sperm Edwards]

13 hours ago, Maxman said:

Woody seems to be the force that makes everything you described not possible. Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick both ran away. Hell even Al Groh ran away. Think about that. Two coaches in a row quit. I can't remember any coach quitting any job ever. It happened twice in a row to Woody.

IIRC at the time Belichick ran away Woody wasn't yet the owner. He and Dolan were still playing one-up each other (though ultimately Dolan didn't leapfrog Woody that last time, he still had days to do so after BB handed in his napkin). Could be that Dolan scared him away, since he was already spread thin enough between the Rangers, Knicks, MSG in general, and oh yeah Cablevision. 2 other teams rejected his ownership bids before the Jets. Woody submitted his (sealed) winning bid on the day Parcells stepped down, but by then he already had a deal ironed out with Kraft. It's not like Hess had cemented himself as a great HC magnet; he did eventually get Parcells in, but that was driven as much as anything else by a Parcells-Kraft rift in the first place and Parcells went to the place it would piss off Kraft the most, in an area he was already revered like royalty from his Giants years. 

Also I don't think Woody had anything to do with Groh leaving a year later. Groh just wasn't cut out for being an NFL HC (let alone in our media hub; he couldn't handle the media in Virginia either). I'd believe otherwise if he even interviewed for another NFL HC position. The closest he came to another position at the pro level was almost getting the DC position in Miami, and even that was only because of Parcells as well.

But yeah, even freaking Herm Edwards ran away. I don't know which is worse: that Woody couldn't convince Herm Edwards to stay, or that he wanted Herm Edwards to stay. 

[NYs Stepchild]

2 hours ago, nycdan said:

When Bowles said "it was too close to call between Hack and Petty" I got flashbacks to some of the ridiculous statements Sean Spicer had to make where everyone in the room, including him, knew it was a load of bullsh*t but his job was to say it out loud anyway.  Sadly, this seems to have become the new norm in our society.  Say things no rational person believes enough times and attack anyone that uses facts to disagree.

Several people seem annoyed that this has become a discussion even (backup QB, who cares!) but is there anyone on the board that thinks it was 'too close to call', let alone that Hack was better?  I don't think I've ever seen a team so desperate to be right about a 2nd round pick before.  

Brainwashing 101. What is 2 plus 2?....4...Electric shock...what is 2 plus 2?

Once they get you to believe something you know from experience to be untrue then your mind is theirs. 

What color is the sky?

[NYs Stepchild]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

IIRC at the time Belichick ran away Woody wasn't yet the owner. He and Dolan were still playing one-up each other (though ultimately Dolan didn't leapfrog Woody that last time, he still had days to do so after BB handed in his napkin). Could be that Dolan scared him away, since he was already spread thin enough between the Rangers, Knicks, MSG in general, and oh yeah Cablevision. 2 other teams rejected his ownership bids before the Jets. Woody submitted his (sealed) winning bid on the day Parcells stepped down, but by then he already had a deal ironed out with Kraft. It's not like Hess had cemented himself as a great HC magnet; he did eventually get Parcells in, but that was driven as much as anything else by a Parcells-Kraft rift in the first place and Parcells went to the place it would piss off Kraft the most, in an area he was already revered like royalty from his Giants years. 

Also I don't think Woody had anything to do with Groh leaving a year later. Groh just wasn't cut out for being an NFL HC (let alone in our media hub; he couldn't handle the media in Virginia either). I'd believe otherwise if he even interviewed for another NFL HC position. The closest he came to another position at the pro level was almost getting the DC position in Miami, and even that was only because of Parcells as well.

But yeah, even freaking Herm Edwards ran away. I don't know which is worse: that Woody couldn't convince Herm Edwards to stay, or that he wanted Herm Edwards to stay. 

We traded Herm for a 4th round pick. that has to be one of the best deals ever made. Can't fault Woody for that.

[nycdan]

22 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Brainwashing 101. What is 2 plus 2?....4...Electric shock...what is 2 plus 2?

Once they get you to believe something you know from experience to be untrue then your mind is theirs. 

What color is the sky?

Blue...no yellow!

 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

We traded Herm for a 4th round pick. that has to be one of the best deals ever made. Can't fault Woody for that.

That's the result. And frankly, even though I'd have been fine if he was fired well before that, getting only a 4th round pick after another team blatantly tampered with our under-contract coach was laughable compensation when you look at what other teams were awarded. This is how much clout and pull Woody Johnson has.

[NYs Stepchild]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That's the result. And frankly, even though I'd have been fine if he was fired well before that, getting only a 4th round pick after another team blatantly tampered with our under-contract coach was laughable compensation when you look at what other teams were awarded.

Would someone please tamper with Bowles..Please. 

 

 

[jamesr]

5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I am assuming this is some kind of crazy joke?  If they thought that Fitzpatrick was going to be here in 2017, why was he only signed for 2016?  Sound planning.  That makes even less sense than not having a Plan B. 

They resigned Fitz to a two year deal that would have had him here this year if he hadn't utterly stunk the joint up last year.

[Crashing&Burning]

Great move by Bowles, you don't want the Bills gaining any advantage by knowing significant, game-changing information like this. 

[#27TheDominator]

11 minutes ago, jamesr said:

They resigned Fitz to a two year deal that would have had him here this year if he hadn't utterly stunk the joint up last year.

FALSE.  His "two year deal" was merely a contract construct because they could not afford him in 2016 despite all that ******* cap space THEY HAD TO SPEND.  It was just so they could spread his cap hit over 2 years by giving a signing bonus instead of salary.  His contract voided right after the super bowl.  There was no way to keep him.

Technically, the contract was for two years, but contained language in which the second year would be automatically voided five days after the Super Bowl — meaning, Friday — if Fitzpatrick remained on the roster.

[jamesr]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

FALSE.  His "two year deal" was merely a contract construct because they could not afford him in 2016 despite all that ******* cap space THEY HAD TO SPEND.  It was just so they could spread his cap hit over 2 years by giving a signing bonus instead of salary.  His contract voided right after the super bowl.  There was no way to keep him.

Technically, the contract was for two years, but contained language in which the second year would be automatically voided five days after the Super Bowl — meaning, Friday — if Fitzpatrick remained on the roster.

So if we'd gone 10-6 with him, we'd just have watched him walk off into the sunset and expect Hack to start? I still reckon the plan was for him to be here for 2017, rather than the plan being for Hack to start. Extension, new contract, whatever.

Except it all fell apart, leaving us with no plan. Leading us to Josh McCown.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, jamesr said:

So if we'd gone 10-6 with him, we'd just have watched him walk off into the sunset and expect Hack to start? I still reckon the plan was for him to be here for 2017, rather than the plan being for Hack to start. Extension, new contract, whatever.

Except it all fell apart, leaving us with no plan. Leading us to Josh McCown.

If he went 10-6 we would have had to pony up and pay him and there would be other teams looking at him.  Like the Bears and Niners.  We barely got him for $12M last year.  This year we would be looking at north of $18M.  That plan sucks even if we go 10-6.  At 5-11 it is an abomination.  

It isn't even a plan.  It is a prayer.  I hope this player does well and I hope I can sign him. 

 

[jamesr]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

If he went 10-6 we would have had to pony up and pay him and there would be other teams looking at him.  Like the Bears and Niners.  We barely got him for $12M last year.  This year we would be looking at north of $18M.  That plan sucks even if we go 10-6.  At 5-11 it is an abomination.  

It isn't even a plan.  It is a prayer.  I hope this player does well and I hope I can sign him. 

 

Sadly, it still seems a saner option than having Hack turn into starter material this off-season. 

[varjet]

1 hour ago, jamesr said:

Sadly, it still seems a saner option than having Hack turn into starter material this off-season. 

The plan had the Jets being competitive with Fitz and Hack, drafting in the middle of the rounds, being in the playoff hunt but falling short and building through the draft.  

There is no Fitz, the Hack experiment is not looking good and the Jets are looking at a high pick in the upcoming QB rich draft    The Jets should add a high 1st round QB next year and take it from there   

 

[flgreen]

Got a feeling Hack is going to be named back up.  This should be fun.

"The Jets haven't named their backup yet, but Bryce Petty should get the job -- he badly outplayed Hackenberg this preseason.

That's the view from the outside, anyway. But if the Jets have severe misgivings about Hackenberg, they aren't letting it show.

"It might only take one -- or two -- hits for Hackenberg to get his first NFL snap. And would Morton be comfortable with the idea of him playing, a soon as Sunday. 

"Yes," Morton said. "Yes, I sure am." 

 

http://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/jets/2017/09/07/hackenberg-did-pretty-good-job-jets-offensive-coordinator-says/643266001/

 

[Charlie Brown]

1 hour ago, flgreen said:

Got a feeling Hack is going to be named back up.  This should be fun.

"The Jets haven't named their backup yet, but Bryce Petty should get the job -- he badly outplayed Hackenberg this preseason.

That's the view from the outside, anyway. But if the Jets have severe misgivings about Hackenberg, they aren't letting it show.

"It might only take one -- or two -- hits for Hackenberg to get his first NFL snap. And would Morton be comfortable with the idea of him playing, a soon as Sunday. 

"Yes," Morton said. "Yes, I sure am." 

 

http://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/jets/2017/09/07/hackenberg-did-pretty-good-job-jets-offensive-coordinator-says/643266001/

 

I said it before I WANTED HACK DRAFTED!!

But Stevie Wonder could tell you that Hack has not looked better than Petty this off season and for the Jets to use last season as a barometer of Petty when he was playing under a different system that many of the players themselves say was unfair and that they hated is silly to me.

Also so many folks say that Petty looked terrible last year, well to me he looked like a first year QB under center, playing behind a horrible OL and hurt WRs...

Now last year if you say Fitz looked terrible to me, now that makes sense....not Petty...

No one on this board as far as I know has made claim that Petty is the answer, but many out here have said with good reason that Petty currently is better than Hack, that is all.

 

[jamesr]

11 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

I said it before I WANTED HACK DRAFTED!!

But Stevie Wonder could tell you that Hack has not looked better than Petty this off season and for the Jets to use last season as a barometer of Petty when he was playing under a different system that many of the players themselves say was unfair and that they hated is silly to me.

Also so many folks say that Petty looked terrible last year, well to me he looked like a first year QB under center, playing behind a horrible OL and hurt WRs...

Now last year if you say Fitz looked terrible to me, now that makes sense....not Petty...

No one on this board as far as I know has made claim that Petty is the answer, but many out here have said with good reason that Petty currently is better than Hack, that is all.

 

Petty may not be the answer ... but at present he at least seems less of a question.

[Dunnie]

Petty looks like he has more experience ... shocker ... he has been in he league longer ... Petty does not have Hack's cannon ... Hack is inaccurate ... i'd bet its closer behind the scenes than we know.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[nycdan]

4 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Petty looks like he has more experience ... shocker ... he has been in he league longer ... Petty does not have Hack's cannon ... Hack is inaccurate ... i'd bet its closer behind the scenes than we know.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOUbe4zLw6U

40 yard laser to the end zone says the arm strength is just fine.  Aaron Rodgers doesn't have Jeff George's cannon either.  That's not usually a point of comparison between them.  Not comparing Petty to Rodgers but if that's what you have to 'make it close', then you're buying whatever Bowles is selling.

[jgb]

On 9/7/2017 at 5:01 AM, section314 said:

We didn't get to be 1,000 to 1 to win the Super Bowl by accident.

overrated

[section314]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

overrated

[Bleedin Green]

Regarding the whole debate about multiple years of Fitz, all you have to do is look at the original contract they tried to get Fitz to sign and that tells you everything.  They were originally pushing him to sign a 3-year deal, which would have paid $12M in the first year, and $6M in the second and third.  Meaning he was being handed the starting job the first, and at most competing for that job this year and next, if not completely moved to a backup spot.  Quite frankly, they got lucky that he refused to take that deal, as he had convinced himself he would be a multi-year starter, but it suggests that they had no intentions of him being locked in to start this year.

Essentially, they ended up giving McCown the second year of Fitz's original contract offer and well.... let's not even get into that.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOUbe4zLw6U

40 yard laser to the end zone says the arm strength is just fine.  Aaron Rodgers doesn't have Jeff George's cannon either.  That's not usually a point of comparison between them.  Not comparing Petty to Rodgers but if that's what you have to 'make it close', then you're buying whatever Bowles is selling.

I don't know that this throw qualifies as a laser, but if he continues to be unsuccessful (when the games count) it won't be due to his arm strength.

The 2 most important traits are what's upstairs and accuracy. Well, the 2 most important after being able to stay on the field for more than a couple of games in a row.

Further down the importance list, I wonder if he just ran a poor 40 at the combine (4.87). He'd previously been clocked at 4.62, and his combine shuttle & 3-cone were the same as Mariota's and (back in his pro day, not live action) was allegedly pretty accurate while throwing on the run. In other words, he seems more theoretically-capable with his feet than he's shown. Then again, his injury history suggests he's arguably the last guy you want to incur further risk to try turning into a running/dual-threat QB, unless that could be the difference between him being well below average and actually dangerous & hard to defend.

I know, I know. He sucks. This is just wishful thinking. It's just that until I see it work out successfully, I'll believe we nailed a worthy franchise QB in 2018 after I see it happen, including said prospect succeeding on the field for the Jets. I'd still draft a QB early even if Petty takes a big leap forward, but I'm unconcerned with which QB actually is the one that pans out for us (next year's pick, Petty, Hackenberg, or anybody), so long as it happens with one of them. 

[Sperm Edwards]

16 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Regarding the whole debate about multiple years of Fitz, all you have to do is look at the original contract they tried to get Fitz to sign and that tells you everything.  They were originally pushing him to sign a 3-year deal, which would have paid $12M in the first year, and $6M in the second and third.  Meaning he was being handed the starting job the first, and at most competing for that job this year and next, if not completely moved to a backup spot.  Quite frankly, they got lucky that he refused to take that deal, as he had convinced himself he would be a multi-year starter, but it suggests that they had no intentions of him being locked in to start this year.

Essentially, they ended up giving McCown the second year of Fitz's original contract offer and well.... let's not even get into that.

Right, but McCown is starting this year in the Fitz-mentor role. Or anyway, he's at least starting until he gets injured or we get eliminated (or off to a bad-enough start that Bowles won't wait for mathematical elimination like he did with Fitz last year). 

I do wonder what the team would have done if he'd signed that original deal. Half of the 2nd year (in the 3-year offer Fitz turned down) was guaranteed. Would they have still dumped him after they got rid of his cheering section? Would Marshall have not asked the team to release him, and they bring him back as well? Or would they have eaten Fitz's guarantee for another $3m wasted and still signed Josh McCown for $6m?

Also remember that $6m for Fitz was a base salary minimum, as it had incentives that could have brought year 2 back up to $12m. I don't know if a SB win was required for all of it, but the incentives offered wouldn't be all-or-none ($6m if no SB win, $12m if we did win it), as playing time was surely a consideration for bumping it up. Technically the offer (if I recall correctly) was a $6m SB with 3 years' salary at $6m apiece, and $15m gtd, plus any incentives reached where it could max out at 3 yrs $36m.

We actually offered this, lol. And he actually turned it down -- double lol.

[Maxman]

16 hours ago, flgreen said:

Got a feeling Hack is going to be named back up.  This should be fun.

"The Jets haven't named their backup yet, but Bryce Petty should get the job -- he badly outplayed Hackenberg this preseason.

That's the view from the outside, anyway. But if the Jets have severe misgivings about Hackenberg, they aren't letting it show.

"It might only take one -- or two -- hits for Hackenberg to get his first NFL snap. And would Morton be comfortable with the idea of him playing, a soon as Sunday. 

"Yes," Morton said. "Yes, I sure am." 

 

http://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/jets/2017/09/07/hackenberg-did-pretty-good-job-jets-offensive-coordinator-says/643266001/

 

I am surprised by this, I think he needs more time.

That said I welcome it. I think Hack has more upside. So bring it on. (And I have said over and over again, I am comfortable with Petty playing if they think he can be a starter in this league). I am rooting for both of them and the only real goal this year is to see if either of them can be an upper level QB in this league.

[Bleedin Green]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Right, but McCown is starting this year in the Fitz-mentor role. Or anyway, he's at least starting until he gets injured or we get eliminated (or off to a bad-enough start that Bowles won't wait for mathematical elimination like he did with Fitz last year). 

I do wonder what the team would have done if he'd signed that original deal. Half of the 2nd year (in the 3-year offer Fitz turned down) was guaranteed. Would they have still dumped him after they got rid of his cheering section? Would Marshall have not asked the team to release him, and they bring him back as well? Or would they have eaten Fitz's guarantee for another $3m wasted and still signed Josh McCown for $6m?

Also remember that $6m for Fitz was a base salary minimum, as it had incentives that could have brought year 2 back up to $12m. I don't know if a SB win was required for all of it, but the incentives offered wouldn't be all-or-none ($6m if no SB win, $12m if we did win it), as playing time was surely a consideration for bumping it up. Technically the offer (if I recall correctly) was a $6m SB with 3 years' salary at $6m apiece, and $15m gtd, plus any incentives reached where it could max out at 3 yrs $36m.

We actually offered this, lol. And he actually turned it down -- double lol.

I have no idea what they would have done if he signed that deal, good chance he'd be playing the McCown role himself this year, as frightening as that is to say.  Or, as you suggested, doubling down by cutting him and still making the McCown deal.  It definitely turned out to be an absolutely awful offer, even worse than anyone thought at the time, that the Jets were beyond lucky he declined.  I have no idea what's making this year, but it's undoubtedly a fraction of what he could've gotten from the Jets.

If they had kept Fitz, he would definitely be starting just as McCown will be.  The only real point about the contract structure is that they likely would have had the same situation going on, a desperate desire to have Hack win the job, which would ultimately fail.  I'm certainly not saying any vet QB they would have had in camp this year wouldn't have won, it just doesn't seem that they were intentionally planning for that, as some have suggested.

Ideally, the Jets would have at least one QB that wasn't some degree of awful, and that might help the situation a bit.

[Maxman]

2 hours ago, nycdan said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOUbe4zLw6U

40 yard laser to the end zone says the arm strength is just fine.  Aaron Rodgers doesn't have Jeff George's cannon either.  That's not usually a point of comparison between them.  Not comparing Petty to Rodgers but if that's what you have to 'make it close', then you're buying whatever Bowles is selling.

I thought when he was a rookie that Petty's arm strength was going to be an issue. I don't think it is. His arm strength is better than I realized. Hack has a much stronger arm, but that doesn't matter if he is 1) throwing it to the other team or 2) throwing it in the dirt lol.

[flgreen]

43 minutes ago, Maxman said:

I thought when he was a rookie that Petty's arm strength was going to be an issue. I don't think it is. His arm strength is better than I realized. Hack has a much stronger arm, but that doesn't matter if he is 1) throwing it to the other team or 2) throwing it in the dirt lol.

Any one that saw Petty play in his junior year knows Petty's arm strength isn't an issue at all.  He didn't throw all that well at the combine, but according to his camp, Petty was still affected by the two cracked bones in the transverse processes in his back, which happened the first game of his senior year.  He played through it all season in a great deal of pain.  and his arm just wasn't as live as his junior year.  After having watched him since he is a Jet his arm is back to where it was his junior year.  So this is a rare occasion that I believe the agent excuse makers. 

Arm strength isn't his problem.  His main problem is that he played in college with the simplest "air raid Offense' in all of the NCAA.  I've read they didn't even use an actual play book.  I'm really surprised he is even able to function in this extremely complicated  O that Morton is installing that I've read has the most verbiage to call a play in the NFL.  Which brings up another question. Why would the Jets be installing that complicated O with 2 Young guys who are struggling to learn any NFL O?   

[Tinstar]

7 minutes ago, flgreen said:

Any one that saw Petty play in his junior year knows Petty's arm strength isn't an issue at all.  He didn't throw all that well at the combine, but according to his camp, Petty was still affected by the two cracked bones in the transverse processes in his back, which happened the first game of his senior year.  He played through it all season in a great deal of pain.  and his arm just wasn't as live as his junior year.  After having watched him since he is a Jet his arm is back to where it was his junior year.  So this is a rare occasion that I believe the agent excuse makers. 

Arm strength isn't his problem.  His main problem is that he played in college with the simplest "air raid Offense' in all of the NCAA.  I've read they didn't even use an actual play book.  I'm really surprised he is even able to function in this extremely complicated  O that Morton is installing that I've read has the most verbiage to call a play in the NFL.  Which brings up another question. Why would the Jets be installing that complicated O with 2 Young guys who are struggling to learn any NFL O?   

Jet fans look at Bryce Petty spreading the ball all over the place and tell themselves he's improving  . Jet fans look at Christian Hackenberg taking sacks and throwing interceptions and tell themselves he is terrible .The truth is somewhere in the middle and only the person who designed the scheme and is calling the plays knows the truth . Since he isn't or hasn't done what Jet fans say he should do, he's an idiot .

Consider this as part of the equation if you will . When you make a successful pass, was it due to your understanding of the play, did you actually execute the play the way it was intended, or did you just made a play because time allowed you the opportunity to make a play ?  When you didn't execute the play the way it was called, was it due to your understanding of the play called, your execution of the play called or the time you had to execute the play called .

A pass thrown into triple coverage that resulted in a TD is celebrated, but truth be told, it was a terrible decision by the QB . Still a TD and still celebrated, just like the wonderful season Fitzpatrick had in 2015 or was it ?