HawkeyeJet Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Bowles is much worse than Macc. Much worse. That said, I'm going to continue to defend Macc simply because 100% of Philc1's post are about him. Not that I think he's done a good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said: Bowles is much worse than Macc. Much worse. That said, I'm going to continue to defend Macc simply because 100% of Philc1's post are about him. Not that I think he's done a good job. Well it's not like he didn't create this mess or nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 22 hours ago, Dunnie said: We were hamstrung by the owner wanting to win now with fitzmagic and an aging roster. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Yeah it's not like we were hamstrung by a GM who wasted high draft picks on crappy players like Darron lee, Devin Smith, Hackenberg and kept Wilkerson over Snacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 On September 10, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Philc1 said: His drafts suck. His drafts were superb according to experts and analysts. That was before the players were handed over to Bowles of course. Q: Do you think Macc drafted safeties because he wanted them or because Bowles wanted them? Quote How on Earth can some jets fans still want this guy picking our qb next Spring? Woody should let Macc pick a new HC first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 On September 11, 2017 at 7:34 AM, gEYno said: The problem with this post is you have no evidence to actually support it. The finished product is your evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, jetrider said: His drafts were superb according to experts and analysts. That was before the players were handed over to Bowles of course. Superb? According to who? These "experts" are wrong 50% of the time at least. These were the same people telling us Cam Robinson wasn't even worthy of a first round pick and would have to play Guard in the NFL. Cam is now killing it as Jacksonville's starting Left Tackle blocking JJ Watt and opening up canyons for Leonard Fournette. 1 hour ago, jetrider said: Q: Do you think Macc drafted safeties because he wanted them or because Bowles wanted them? The Adams, Maye and Lee picks have Todd Bowles written all over them just like the Coples and Richardson picks had Rex written all over them. But Mac has the final say and has to own it. 1 hour ago, jetrider said: Woody should let Macc pick a new HC first. No, that would be a terrible mistake on Woody's part. Mac is the biggest problem with this franchise even bigger than Bowles who also needs to be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuscanyTile2 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 On 9/10/2017 at 4:17 PM, Joe W. Namath said: Mac is the worst gm in football. That is not debateable. How about whoever the Colts GM is? They've got the franchise QB in place and they can't put anything around the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 4 hours ago, jetrider said: The finished product is your evidence So, your take is that Mac picked a bunch of superstars that Bowles ruined? Hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said: How about whoever the Colts GM is? They've got the franchise QB in place and they can't put anything around the guy. If Macagnan is #1 sh_ttiest GM the Colts GM is 1(a) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 37 minutes ago, gEYno said: So, your take is that Mac picked a bunch of superstars that Bowles ruined? Hilarious That's what the media and Jets spin story is going to be when Bowles is the scapegoat in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 8 hours ago, Philc1 said: That's what the media and Jets spin story is going to be when Bowles is the scapegoat in January. It's amazing - I've said it numerous times here. I don't even hold that high an opinion of Bowles myself, it's just that the majority of the arguments against him are so aggressively stupid, it's hard not to defend him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 14 hours ago, jetrider said: His drafts were superb according to experts and analysts. lollercoaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn31 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 11 hours ago, Philc1 said: That's what the media and Jets spin story is going to be when Bowles is the scapegoat in January. Fat boy Francesa did just that yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn31 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 3 hours ago, gEYno said: It's amazing - I've said it numerous times here. I don't even hold that high an opinion of Bowles myself, it's just that the majority of the arguments against him are so aggressively stupid, it's hard not to defend him. The fact that Jet fans can actually splinter into pro-McCag vs pro-Bowles factions may be the most pathetic part of all. How can anyone be pro either one versus the other when they're both horrific at their job descriptions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 29 minutes ago, glenn31 said: The fact that Jet fans can actually splinter into pro-McCag vs pro-Bowles factions may be the most pathetic part of all. How can anyone be pro either one versus the other when they're both horrific at their job descriptions? It's as though some find it incomprehensible to suggest that both of these two are just awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 13 hours ago, gEYno said: So, your take is that Mac picked a bunch of superstars that Bowles ruined? Hilarious Where did I say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustiniak Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said: It's as though some find it incomprehensible to suggest that both of these two are just awful. i think you can split them. look at jeremy kerley. he's underused on the jets, goes to another bad team with no qb and sets career highs in targets/receptions/tds. i think there are a good number of players the jets draft who would look better on other teams, on both offense and defense. i think stewart/hanson would do fine in competent offenses. i think mcguire would get playing time over forte on other teams whose coaches would value performance over tenure. i also think petty could look halfway decent on the jets, and they would have had a legit shot of beating the bills if he played. increasingly, i find it more and more difficult to evaluate some of mccags draft picks b/c they are either not used or used incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, Augustiniak said: i think you can split them. look at jeremy kerley. he's underused on the jets, goes to another bad team with no qb and sets career highs in targets/receptions/tds. i think there are a good number of players the jets draft who would look better on other teams, on both offense and defense. i think stewart/hanson would do fine in competent offenses. i think mcguire would get playing time over forte on other teams whose coaches would value performance over tenure. i also think petty could look halfway decent on the jets, and they would have had a legit shot of beating the bills if he played. increasingly, i find it more and more difficult to evaluate some of mccags draft picks b/c they are either not used or used incorrectly. We better let him hire his own coach, just to be safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointdexter Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, dbatesman said: We better let him hire his own coach, just to be safe If it's half as good as that 2nd round steal at QB that he outsmarted the rest of the league on, we're all in for a real treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustiniak Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Pointdexter said: If it's half as good as that 2nd round steal at QB that he outsmarted the rest of the league on, we're all in for a real treat. you know what, if petty turns out to be decent, and hack sucks, that's a pretty good tradeoff, if you can hit on 50% of the qbs you get after round 1. of course that would mean petty has to play ok, but he's got a chance. it would actually be way more encouraging if petty pans out, than hack, b/c you'd have a 4th rounder from an air raid offense who was somehow groomed amid the coaching dysfunction to become productive. i really would like to see him play the phins week 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 On September 11, 2017 at 7:38 AM, dbatesman said: It was Idzik's fault that the team was bad when he was here, because he was bad. Its not Maccc's fault the team is bad, because Maccc is good. Try to keep up Tightwad Idzik was a banker who had no interest in working with an HC that wanted to win now and spend money. Woody changed all that with Macc and Bowles. It's a new unified collaborative effort. The GM listens to and serves the HC. There's a big diff. For someone who spends his life on a Jets forum you should really try to keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 51 minutes ago, jetrider said: Where did I say that? 19 hours ago, jetrider said: His drafts were superb according to experts and analysts. That was before the players were handed over to Bowles of course. Right here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMan77 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Why is that I have to either be defending him across the board, or agreeing that he's the worst in the league? Why can't I just think he's been a meh GM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varjet Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Augustiniak said: i think you can split them. look at jeremy kerley. he's underused on the jets, goes to another bad team with no qb and sets career highs in targets/receptions/tds. i think there are a good number of players the jets draft who would look better on other teams, on both offense and defense. i think stewart/hanson would do fine in competent offenses. i think mcguire would get playing time over forte on other teams whose coaches would value performance over tenure. i also think petty could look halfway decent on the jets, and they would have had a legit shot of beating the bills if he played. increasingly, i find it more and more difficult to evaluate some of mccags draft picks b/c they are either not used or used incorrectly. There are alot of moving parts here: In judging Macc, many of us strongly suspect Woody's involvement-signing Revis and Fitz2, holding out for too much in trading Mo and SR, pushing to be competitive when they should been rebuilding (item 3, see below). In judging Bowles, you have to take into account the rebuild/purge taking place now and the decisions to let Decker and Harris go (compounded by QE injury). In judging Macc, given that he is equal to Bowles, you need to take into account players that he picked for Bowles at Bowles behest who are not working out-Lee is definitely one of these. You also need to take into account ability of Bowles and his staff to develop and deploy those players. In judging Bowles, you need to take into account players that Macc gave him that are not good. Of the three year draft list, I think we can point to a few of those. Macc traded alot of picks away to be competitive (see item 3 above). That has not helped the shape of the roster. There is clear evidence that both of them underachieved on their own. There is also strong suspicion that each of them with respect to each other, and other forces, contributed to their underachievement. I think there is evidence that each of them would have done better in their promoted role in a different place. The Jets are not the Chiefs who run the same system. The Chiefs are owned and run by Clark Hunt, who grew up with football, like the Rooneys and Maras. Woody is just clueless, but he is also too clueless to realize that he is clueless. The system the Jets are employing is not working. Something needs to change. My guess is that there are things going on behind the scenes, and that these guys must be smarter than we think they are. I definitely think there is a bias to playing players for whom money has been spent, regardless of ability. For example, both last year and this year, someone has been saying, "play Forte." It would also appear that the defensive coaches are stuck in a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, gEYno said: Right here? So you made it all up. Thought so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 28 minutes ago, jetrider said: So you made it all up. Thought so. So you didn't say that Bowles screwed up Mac's great drafts/talent. Ok... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 hour ago, gEYno said: So you didn't say that Bowles screwed up Mac's great drafts/talent. Ok... I didn't call them "superstars", your original accusation. I did say it would take "superstars" to conceal crappy coaching. I also said Macc's drafts received high grades. However, we don't know their true potential once put in Bowles' hands. And I did and still say they don't have a good chance under Bowles. Okay ... he ruins them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 hour ago, jetrider said: Tightwad Idzik was a banker who had no interest in working with an HC that wanted to win now and spend money. Woody changed all that with Macc and Bowles. It's a new unified collaborative effort. The GM listens to and serves the HC. There's a big diff. For someone who spends his life on a Jets forum you should really try to keep up. RIP dbatesman, hoist by his own petard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, jetrider said: I didn't call them "superstars", your original accusation. I did say it would take "superstars" to conceal crappy coaching. I also said Macc's drafts received high grades. However, we don't know their true potential once put in Bowles' hands. And I did and still say they don't have a good chance under Bowles. Got it. So, your argument hinges on the difference between "superb" and "superstar." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 minute ago, gEYno said: Got it. So, your argument hinges on the difference between "superb" and "superstar." A superb draft implies superstar talent? It's you that's off the rails here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 minute ago, jetrider said: A superb draft implies superstar talent? It's you that's off the rails here Probably right, jetrider. You sir, have a superb understanding of what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I too think that the word superb should not be defined by anything super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetrider Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, gEYno said: Probably right, jetrider. You sir, have a superb understanding of what's going on. Thank you. That means I'm a superstar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 hour ago, jetrider said: I didn't call them "superstars", your original accusation. I did say it would take "superstars" to conceal crappy coaching. I also said Macc's drafts received high grades. However, we don't know their true potential once put in Bowles' hands. And I did and still say they don't have a good chance under Bowles. Okay ... he ruins them. Well Belichick's drafts - including some doozies - would routinely receive initial high grades. I remember for example '06 in particular, in what was billed as this super-deep draft at the time. Round after round, the endless knob-slobbering over every move he'd made and every terrible pick he selected. In the end, he drafted 10 players and the best of the bunch - by far - was the one that was then thought of as his biggest reach, and only somewhat acceptable because Belichick was the one making it: his 4th round kicker. Point being, had those same players gone to Bowles & co. it's a safe guess that your blame for their failure would surely fall on these substandard coaches not putting them in positions to succeed. It's entirely possible these players - no matter how good they may have looked in college, no matter how much you liked the picks at the time - just might not be very good, or any good. Coaching is hardly meaningless, but most truly good prospects - e.g. a sure thing like Leo - aren't going to totally suck even despite bad coaching, so long as they stay healthy. Or is your suggestion that UDFA Robbie Anderson received superior coaching and was uniquely given a better chance to succeed, as a rookie under Bowles, than all the rest of the young WRs Maccagnan drafted or brought in? He didn't ruin Anderson; he didn't ruin Enunwa; he didn't ruin Winters; he hasn't seemed to ruin forum-favorites like Shell and Burris; it's doubtful he'll ruin Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 The credit for good players goes to Maccagnan for astutely drafting them in the first place, but the blame for bad players falls squarely on Bowles for ruining them somehow. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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