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NYs Stepchild

Reasonable discussions

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We seem to have lost the ability to have any sort of reasonable discussion anymore. Not just here but on any topic.

If you say we're playing scared then obviously we want to play all rookies and just run go routes all day. 

Well there is a middle ground and I'm sure that 's what most of us want to see. We can play Vets but that doesn't mean we have to ride them all game. 

We can play conservative but that doesn't mean we don't need to take some shots down field to loosen up the defense. 

We want a coach that sees the way the game is progressing and reacts accordingly. If what we're doing isn't working then it should be obvious that we need to try something else. That doesn't mean we throw out the game plan, but it does it mean we shouldn't keep running plays that they know are coming. You are allowed to surprise the other team. It's not cheating.

Hey if it doesn't work then you try something else. I'm pretty sure everyone understands that. What they don't understand is continuing to do the same things that didn't work in the hopes that we'll magically break 4 tackles and get a first down. We got 3 passing first downs all day. 2 were on busted coverages, and one was on 3rd and short. You cannot maintain that especially when your plan is to gain 4 yards per pass. That means you need a 100 completion % to ever score a TD. 

No one is saying to we need to run an air raid. You need to take some shots downfield when they're stacking the box and the safeties are both coming forward on every play. 

Then once you're down by 2 scores late in the 3rd you need to conserve clock to maximize your possessions. You cannot expect this team to score twice in 3 tries while holding their opponent scoreless. 

The only explanation for Bowles to run out the clock is that he was satisfied with being competitive and never hoped to win. this is not what you want to teach young players. 

Anyone that has any constructive disagreements with this account is welcome to try and change my mind. I'm open to constructive criticism. Please to not blurt out that I'm wrong, or drunk, or that conservative play calling can still win in this league because this is not the 80s. We do not have the players to grind out any wins even if it were. No one really does anymore.

You need clutch play from clutch players. Protecting these guys is going to get us nowhere. Let them show what they can do. If anything it would prove that Bowles just didn't have the horses to win. This way it just makes him seem incompetent. At least to those informed in the league. You know, the ones that might give him a job next year.

 

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10 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

The internet has ruined civil discourse

It sure has... It's turned into defending arbitrary points to the death. 

It's also a good original point that there's no middle ground anymore. If I give Mac a C grade as a GM, I'm thrown to the wolves and burned at the stake. We're a forum of extremes these days, which is kind of lame. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

The internet has ruined civil discourse

I think passionate fans are frustrated at the prospect that we are years away from being a contender. Last Sunday's game was depressing. I naively thought our D would keep it close, they were abused by Shady. Our offense is an abomination. Everyone is fighting, pointing fingers, downright pissed. Soon we will resign ourselves to the new reality. We've become the Browns. Civility and complacency will return. We are a beaten down lot.

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I have been defending arbitrary points to the death since before Al Gore invented the internet.  Hell I do it for a living.

FWIW, I think this point:

Quote

 We can play Vets but that doesn't mean we have to ride them all game. 

Works with some players, but not others.  It is hard to play a QB for some of the game.  They seem to have done it with Burris.  Burris had a decent enough game, but it has made people jump up and down about benching/cutting Skrine.  I understand Skrine isn't so great and makes a ton of money, but Burris only played about 30 snaps while Skrine and Claiborne played almost every snap.

They may have done it at WR too.  Still, signing Kerley seems odd.  Kearse can take some pressure off, but why do they need/want both?  

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Just now, RutgersJetFan said:

Agreed. Human beings definitely treated each other well and talked to each other civilly before the Internet ruined it all.

Not sure if you are being straight or sarcastic here.  Could argue either way.

Assuming the former, I'd say that's largely because of the new dynamic of anonymity. People feel safe saying horrible things when they can't be held personally accountable and have to face the ramifications of their stupidity and toxic comments.  The karmic win of neo-nazis crying how unfair it is that they get fired after being identified and outed from a photo of their rallies is a case in point.  They truly don't believe they are subject to consequences until they get punched in the face with them (i.e fired and humiliated). 

'Unfortunately, I don't see this changing.  All we can do is self-police and weed out the really bad actors.

 

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If the plan is to lose and develop, which I hope it is, things are going swimmingly!

There's no need to change anything.  Except maybe QB one Petty is healthy or Hack can throw within 5 feet of a receiver

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Was looking for a thread like this.

One of the biggest things I realized over the past few weeks is just how much Bowles doesn't want to lose the game of field position and doesn't trust his offense.

He took the kicker that was better at Kick offs, he punted on 4th down while being down two scores with four minutes left apparently because he felt the team was too close to their own end. And the offense the jets have going emphasizes conservative safe decisions, so much so that he awarded a check down king the starting job. 

He oozes an unconfident demeanor when it comes to his own offense and he's running it scared- Bowles is more concerned over turnover prevention and getting good field position than letting his offense make plays. 

I know this offense isn't proven at all but its such a defeatist attitude and I don't think it helps the team one bit.

 

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The reason it's hard to find a "reasonable discussion" is because most people define "reasonable" as comments that agree with their point of view.

For instance, I think it's pretty ******* unreasonable to think that an NFL head coach, who has dedicated his entire adult life to achieving this position of which their are 32 in the world and for which he may never get another shot at if the current opportunity does not work out, who spends 80+ hours a week preparing for a football game, and who's livelihood at present and even more so in the future relies on winning football games, was not interested in a winning a football game.

But hey, that's just my perspective.  I don't believe that a man who spent his whole life trying to get where he is today, who spends absurd hours at work and away from his family dedicating his time to the sport, and who literally feeds his family through success in the sport, is actually not trying to do well.  But, obviously that is unreasonable to some.

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47 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Just saw an article about Hue Jackson in CLE.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/browns-hue-jackson-says-rookie-quarterback-deshone-kizer-gives-us-hope/

 

Here are some quotes I like:

This is what I want from a HC.  He is giving the young rookie a chance to play, a chance to make mistakes and learn, a chance to develop into a good starting QB, and most of all, a clear signal that he is confident in the kid.  Compare that to how our coaching staff treats our 3rd year player.  In a nutshell, that's why Bowles will never succeed IMO.  CLE may lose some games badly, but they are having more fun and investing in a better future.  We are just standing in the soup line waiting hours for weak broth.  

So yes, I would embrace the middle ground but I can't even see it from here.

 

What I find "unreasonable" about this point of view is that it ignores the very legitimate possibility that Deshone Kizer is just better than Bryce Petty and/or Christian Hackenberg.

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1 minute ago, gEYno said:

Occam's razor is lost on Jets fans.

Not at all.  I see a 'starting' QB who has no upside for the team.  Maybe Petty will try and fail, in which case, I would completely understand going back to McCown.  What I don't condone is never giving him the shot because of fear that he might fail.  Jackson could not have had a lot of evidence to support that Kizer will be successful but he's giving him a shot and all of his public support.  Bowles does the exact opposite, appearing to undermine Petty at every turn.  I can't explain it, and yes, there may be a valid reason for it that we don't know.  But again, for me, I'd rather try and fail with Petty than squander the whole season watching McCown be sub-average.

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17 minutes ago, gEYno said:

The reason it's hard to find a "reasonable discussion" is because most people define "reasonable" as comments that agree with their point of view.

For instance, I think it's pretty ******* unreasonable to think that an NFL head coach, who has dedicated his entire adult life to achieving this position of which their are 32 in the world and for which he may never get another shot at if the current opportunity does not work out, who spends 80+ hours a week preparing for a football game, and who's livelihood at present and even more so in the future relies on winning football games, was not interested in a winning a football game.

But hey, that's just my perspective.  I don't believe that a man who spent his whole life trying to get where he is today, who spends absurd hours at work and away from his family dedicating his time to the sport, and who literally feeds his family through success in the sport, is actually not trying to do well.  But, obviously that is unreasonable to some.

And others think that the decision between going for it and punting is not as cut and dry as those who dramatically label choosing to punt as "indefensible".

Punting with 4 minutes left and 3 timeouts is not the same as 3 minutes and no timeouts.  It just isn't.

There are plenty reasons to dislike Bowles (I wanted him gone last year) without hammering on this 50/50 proposition.  I'm way more interested in hearing why this Defensive minded coach has a defense that is not playing up to it's skill level.

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2 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Not at all.  I see a 'starting' QB who has no upside for the team.  Maybe Petty will try and fail, in which case, I would completely understand going back to McCown.  What I don't condone is never giving him the shot because of fear that he might fail.  Jackson could not have had a lot of evidence to support that Kizer will be successful but he's giving him a shot and all of his public support.  Bowles does the exact opposite, appearing to undermine Petty at every turn.  I can't explain it, and yes, there may be a valid reason for it that we don't know.  But again, for me, I'd rather try and fail with Petty than squander the whole season watching McCown be sub-average.

I think it's fairly obvious at this point that the team has a much lower opinion of Bryce Petty than the fans do.  They've seen plenty of him in practice and in film rooms and meetings.  Fans just want to see it for themselves because they have this absurd notion that they know as much as the coaches and will only believe that Petty can't play when they decide for themselves that Petty can't play.

It's a hard sell that fear of failure is the reason behind starting McCown, considering McCown has won 11 football games in 11 seasons and is something like 2 for his last 22.  Seems like failure is pretty much assured.  Jackson may not have evidence that Kizer will succeed, but he may have enough evidence to think that he might.  It seems rather obvious that the Jets have enough evidence (including 99% of which you don't get to see) that Bryce Petty is not an NFL starter at this time.

That "valid reason" that you are downplaying and treating as an afterthought, is the simplest, most elegant explanation... That Bryce Petty is not an NFL caliber QB.

Lastly, the equally good reason for starting McCown, and the "upside" is that establishes a minimum level of competence at the position which gives our young WRs and other offensive players a chance to develop.  If Petty can't play at all, those guys suffer.

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5 minutes ago, Pac said:

And others think that the decision between going for it and punting is not as cut and dry as those who dramatically label choosing to punt as "indefensible".

Punting with 4 minutes left and 3 timeouts is not the same as 3 minutes and no timeouts.  It just isn't.

There are plenty reasons to dislike Bowles (I wanted him gone last year) without hammering on this 50/50 proposition.  I'm way more interested in hearing why this Defensive minded coach has a defense that is not playing up to it's skill level.

Because, this defenses skill level is far less than you're assuming?  And again, this is no defense of Bowles.

DE Leonard Williams - Very good player who doesn't sack the QB, so impact is limited.

NT Steve McLendon - A player the Steelers let go of, do the Steelers ever let go of a guy and regret it?

DE Muhammad Wilkerson - Phenomenal talent who took the money and ran.

OLB Josh Martin - Heading into his 4th season, had 21 tackles and 2 .5 sacks in his career prior.

ILB Darron Lee - undersized LB who can't cover.  Could be a total bust.

ILB Demario Davis - slow linebacker who we literally cut and then took back from the other worst team in the league.

OLB Jordan Jenkins - 2nd year LB with athletic metrics (and draft profile) suggesting he's not a pass-rusher.

CB Buster Skrine - Holding #41 Defense, need I say more?

CB Morris Claiborne - Potential to be good, but always injured and yet to live up to his potential.

SS Jamal Adams - Rookie - decent 1st game, huge draft asset spent on lower impact position.

FS Marcus Maye - Rookie - poor first game, draft profile says will struggle in coverage, lower impact position.

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Not sure if you are being straight or sarcastic here.  Could argue either way.

Assuming the former, I'd say that's largely because of the new dynamic of anonymity. People feel safe saying horrible things when they can't be held personally accountable and have to face the ramifications of their stupidity and toxic comments.  The karmic win of neo-nazis crying how unfair it is that they get fired after being identified and outed from a photo of their rallies is a case in point.  They truly don't believe they are subject to consequences until they get punched in the face with them (i.e fired and humiliated). 

'Unfortunately, I don't see this changing.  All we can do is self-police and weed out the really bad actors.

 

They should be fired, and they always were if they were found out. 

What shouldn't happen if being prevented to say, or think what they want. Let them talk and give them the rope to hang themselves with.

Really the most important thing is not to let them effect you or your life. Their points are easily refuted using logic, and they can be laughed off the stage. 

What everyone needs to remember is that everyone thinks their opinion is valid for whatever reason. No one wants to believe in something they know is wrong. 

Of course some people are ignorant, and some have faith. Those things cannot be debated, but they can be tempered.

If you want to have a genuine discussion with someone you must try to see things from their perspective. Only then can you understand where their, or your opinions have gone awry. Otherwise we may as well just get out the weapons and start shooting each other. 

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Just saw an article about Hue Jackson in CLE.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/browns-hue-jackson-says-rookie-quarterback-deshone-kizer-gives-us-hope/

 

Here are some quotes I like:

This is what I want from a HC.  He is giving the young rookie a chance to play, a chance to make mistakes and learn, a chance to develop into a good starting QB, and most of all, a clear signal that he is confident in the kid.  Compare that to how our coaching staff treats our 3rd year player.  In a nutshell, that's why Bowles will never succeed IMO.  CLE may lose some games badly, but they are having more fun and investing in a better future.  We are just standing in the soup line waiting hours for weak broth.  

So yes, I would embrace the middle ground but I can't even see it from here.

 

THe Browns at least put up a fight against the heavily favored Steelers.   They are in better position moving forward than we are. 

Middle ground is far when you are a 2 win team and I don't see those on the horizon either.  

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Is there really any doubt that management has instructed Bowles to lose, but try to make it look good? I mean really who are we kidding. If Bowles is actually trying to win games, Woody should fire him from across the pond.  A top pick in this draft is worth far more than a few meaningless wins for a bad team. 

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2 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

THe Browns at least put up a fight against the heavily favored Steelers.   They are in better position moving forward than we are. 

Middle ground is far when you are a 2 win team and I don't see those on the horizon either.  

of course they are...they've had top 5 picks for what seems like a decade.

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5 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said:

They should be fired, and they always were if they were found out. 

What shouldn't happen if being prevented to say, or think what they want. Let them talk and give them the rope to hang themselves with.

Really the most important thing is not to let them effect you or your life. Their points are easily refuted using logic, and they can be laughed off the stage. 

What everyone needs to remember is that everyone thinks their opinion is valid for whatever reason. No one wants to believe in something they know is wrong. 

Of course some people are ignorant, and some have faith. Those things cannot be debated, but they can be tempered.

If you want to have a genuine discussion with someone you must try to see things from their perspective. Only then can you understand where their, or your opinions have gone awry. Otherwise we may as well just get out the weapons and start shooting each other. 

You nailed it with the 4th line.  Recognize the difference between an opinion and a fact and you can have a dignified, intelligent debate.  That's where so many go off the rails.  They never say things like "I respect your opinion" or "You may be right but...".  Too often you see posts start with "You're an idiot".  So unless you are talking to SAR, specifically about PSLs, that's not a good position to start with :).  (sorry SAR, but I needed a human sacrifice to the god of humor.  Feel honored!).

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4 hours ago, DMan77 said:

It sure has... It's turned into defending arbitrary points to the death. 

It's also a good original point that there's no middle ground anymore. If I give Mac a C grade as a GM, I'm thrown to the wolves and burned at the stake. We're a forum of extremes these days, which is kind of lame. 

 

You are describing not only our site, but our entire country. And that's just sad.

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1 minute ago, section314 said:

You are describing not only our site, but our entire country. And that's just sad.

I don't think most people actually feel that way but those that do are very loud, and those that don't are afraid of pissing off...I mean hurting the feelings of both sides.

I remain quiet most of the time even though i feel I could argue both sides better than either of them. 

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