Reasonable discussions

[T0mShane]

As someone who said stuff before the internet and after the internet, the difference is that the stuff you said before the internet you only said to people who were similarly stupid on your level. Post internet, you'd say that same stupid stuff and a smart person would swoop in and rinse your ear canals with his online penis and you'd learn for the first time that growing up in Appalachia left you a true dumbass, relatively speaking. 

[LIJetsFan]

McCown is 2-23.  Geno Smith is better than 2-23.  Brice Petty can't possible be worse than 2-23.  I rest my case.  

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, NYs Stepchild said:

I never mentioned that. It may have been included in the general theme of no urgency, but never mentioned the specific play.

We didn't start hurrying at all until about 7 min left down by nine. We took 40 seconds in the huddle right up until we had time left for only 3 possessions max. It ended up being 3 only because we threw a quick interception. If we had hurried, maybe a quick huddle, or no huddle right after they had scored we could have had at least 5 chances to score.

Then that punt would have never mattered. It's nothing new for Bowles so you cannot say it was because we're trying to tank. 

There has never been any urgency on offense from this man. He's worse than Rex which isn't an easy accomplishment. 

okay.  your points are well taken and more of what i'm getting at.  i have wanted to see the jet offense come out crisp and ready to play from down one for quite some time. i think we need to go back to 2009 or 2010 when the offense was on the same page coming out of the gate.  i am hopeful that these guys will get their act together this season.  get this oline solid and things might turn out well.

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

As someone who said stuff before the internet and after the internet, the difference is that the stuff you said before the internet you only said to people who were similarly stupid on your level. Post internet, you'd say that same stupid stuff and a smart person would swoop in and rinse your ear canals with his online penis and you'd learn for the first time that growing up in Appalachia left you a true dumbass, relatively speaking. 

This could be the best explanation... of anything... ever.

[bealeb319]

I'm honestly convinced that at least a quarter of our members are actually patriot fans who blow our problems out of proportion just to laugh while they watch us argue about how bad our team is.

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app

[NYs Stepchild]

13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

As someone who said stuff before the internet and after the internet, the difference is that the stuff you said before the internet you only said to people who were similarly stupid on your level. Post internet, you'd say that same stupid stuff and a smart person would swoop in and rinse your ear canals with his online penis and you'd learn for the first time that growing up in Appalachia left you a true dumbass, relatively speaking. 

You said stuff after the internet?

[jamesr]

16 hours ago, Tony MaC said:

Was looking for a thread like this.

One of the biggest things I realized over the past few weeks is just how much Bowles doesn't want to lose the game of field position and doesn't trust his offense.

He took the kicker that was better at Kick offs, he punted on 4th down while being down two scores with four minutes left apparently because he felt the team was too close to their own end. And the offense the jets have going emphasizes conservative safe decisions, so much so that he awarded a check down king the starting job. 

He oozes an unconfident demeanor when it comes to his own offense and he's running it scared- Bowles is more concerned over turnover prevention and getting good field position than letting his offense make plays. 

I know this offense isn't proven at all but its such a defeatist attitude and I don't think it helps the team one bit.

 

Sadly this is very much what we saw from Rex too ... defense will win the game, offense just has to not lose it.

[slats]

16 hours ago, Pac said:

And others think that the decision between going for it and punting is not as cut and dry as those who dramatically label choosing to punt as "indefensible".

Punting with 4 minutes left and 3 timeouts is not the same as 3 minutes and no timeouts.  It just isn't.

There are plenty reasons to dislike Bowles (I wanted him gone last year) without hammering on this 50/50 proposition.  I'm way more interested in hearing why this Defensive minded coach has a defense that is not playing up to it's skill level.

The team had scored 12 points in 56 minutes of play and they needed to score 10 more points in four minutes to win the game. In what universe was it going to be possible for the Jets to win that game after punting there? 

[The Crusher]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

As someone who said stuff before the internet and after the internet, the difference is that the stuff you said before the internet you only said to people who were similarly stupid on your level. Post internet, you'd say that same stupid stuff and a smart person would swoop in and rinse your ear canals with his online penis and you'd learn for the first time that growing up in Appalachia left you a true dumbass, relatively speaking. 

Somehow someplace some six fingered dude is giving you two middle fingers on one hand. 

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, slats said:

The team had scored 12 points in 56 minutes of play and they needed to score 10 more points in four minutes to win the game. In what universe was it going to be possible for the Jets to win that game after punting there? 

Probably a similar universe that included the Jets getting a 1st down on that play, going on to score, getting a stop, and then scoring again?

Again, I would have gone for it.  But, considering the Jets made like 7 plays for over 10 yards in this game, and they were on their own side of the field, the incredibly high probability of failure on that play ends the game instantly.  However, a punt extends the game and gives the Jets another shot with more favorable field position.

People like to fantasize that the game wasn't over either way.  It was.  I'd have made a different call, but the logic behind the decision isn't as bad as it's being made out to be.

[#27TheDominator]

9 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Somehow someplace some six fingered dude is giving you two middle fingers on one hand. 

They know Shane in Coney Island?

[slats]

21 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Well there is a middle ground and I'm sure that 's what most of us want to see. We can play Vets but that doesn't mean we have to ride them all game. 

I'm okay with starting McCown right now as long as it's limited to four games or less. The team is very young and is learning a new offense that the old QB is familiar with. Think of him as training wheels while the rest of the offense becomes more familiar and comfortable with the new system. But once everyone is settled, you have to start evaluating your young QBs. 

I don't mind Kearse at all, but Kerley is completely unnecessary. You just drafted WRs in the third and fourth rounds, have a couple decent guys from last year, let's develop these kids. I hope Kerley is inactive all year. Or just cut. 

Forte is here because his contract is guaranteed -no other reason- but that's no reason to have him in the starting lineup. Powell does everything better than Forte at this stage in their careers, and McGuire looked to me like he deserves some playing time as well. 

[slats]

12 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Probably a similar universe that included the Jets getting a 1st down on that play, going on to score, getting a stop, and then scoring again?

Again, I would have gone for it.  But, considering the Jets made like 7 plays for over 10 yards in this game, and they were on their own side of the field, the incredibly high probability of failure on that play ends the game instantly.  However, a punt extends the game and gives the Jets another shot with more favorable field position.

People like to fantasize that the game wasn't over either way.  It was.  I'd have made a different call, but the logic behind the decision isn't as bad as it's being made out to be.

 

Don't really disagree, but the difference is that going for it there was really the only hope of winning while punting was conceding the game. I think going for it would've been a decision the team would've been excited about, while Bowles was fearful of losing by a more lop-sided score. I recognize that all NFL head coaches are conservative in these matters in general, but our head coach is painfully so. 

[Warfish]

21 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

We seem to have lost the ability to have any sort of reasonable discussion anymore. Not just here but on any topic.

Welcome to the Internet.  Are you new here?

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, slats said:

Don't really disagree, but the difference is that going for it there was really the only hope of winning while punting was conceding the game. I think going for it would've been a decision the team would've been excited about, while Bowles was fearful of losing by a more lop-sided score. I recognize that all NFL head coaches are conservative in these matters in general, but our head coach is painfully so. 

For what it's worth, ESPN does that win probability tracker and the Bills chances of winning actually dropped after the punt from 98.3% to 95.9%.

[RESNewYork]

22 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Probably a similar universe that included the Jets getting a 1st down on that play, going on to score, getting a stop, and then scoring again?

Again, I would have gone for it.  But, considering the Jets made like 7 plays for over 10 yards in this game, and they were on their own side of the field, the incredibly high probability of failure on that play ends the game instantly.  However, a punt extends the game and gives the Jets another shot with more favorable field position.

People like to fantasize that the game wasn't over either way.  It was.  I'd have made a different call, but the logic behind the decision isn't as bad as it's being made out to be.

I agree the call was extremely blown out of proportion by the media. Sometimes feels like articles are written to sit up jet fans because jet fans seem to love reading that stuff. 

I do wonder how Bowles handled it with his offense. The call itself showed he had no confidence in the offense. At least that's what I felt as soon as I saw the punt team. Maybe it tells the offense you need to play better so we can be more confident going for it in that spot

[rex-n-effect]

This forum has been unreadable most of the year. The worse the team performs the worse the arguments get and the more it's just repetition to fire whoever a poster doesn't like. Most arguments this year have been:

1. I don't like that X happened
2. I don't like Y person
3. Therefore X caused Y and should be out of the organization

Often with facts invented as though the poster has privileged knowledge of the inner workings of the team to justify that analysis. In reality it's just somebody who has played enough Madden they've convinced themselves that's exactly how a real team operates or they just hate person Y and find it convenient to saddle every bad decision on that person. 

[Pac]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Don't really disagree, but the difference is that going for it there was really the only hope of winning while punting was conceding the game. I think going for it would've been a decision the team would've been excited about, while Bowles was fearful of losing by a more lop-sided score. I recognize that all NFL head coaches are conservative in these matters in general, but our head coach is painfully so. 

Lach had already had a number of good punts.  The hope is you pin them inside the 10 and either get a 3 and out or a possible fumble.  I see the logic and agreed with the decision as it played out.

Not converting and giving them the ball on their 44 means we use 3 timeouts and pray shady doesn't get the first.  Even if he doesn't they could still be in FG range.

You punt and stop and a TD and FG wins...  If they get a FG you have about a minute and no timeouts to get 2 TD's.  

I'm surprised how much was made of the whole thing..  I think going for it was the worse option.

[NYs Stepchild]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

For what it's worth, ESPN does that win probability tracker and the Bills chances of winning actually dropped after the punt from 98.3% to 95.9%.

From 2% to 4% because the odds of us converting were low. So Bowles is riding that 4% chance that Buff turns the ball over then we convert an onsides kick.

If we had converted the odds would have gone up exponentially. It's just a mindset that we're complaining about. 

If we go for it it's in our hands. If we punt we are hoping for help from above.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, NYs Stepchild said:

From 2% to 4% because the odds of us converting were low. So Bowles is riding that 4% chance that Buff turns the ball over then we convert an onsides kick.

If we had converted the odds would have gone up exponentially. It's just a mindset that we're complaining about. 

If we go for it it's in our hands. If we punt we are hoping for help from above.

It is not a significant difference, but interesting that the trend moved in the direction of us having a better chance of winning with the punt, despite the movement not being large.  You're hanging onto the fact that Bowles was riding a 4% chance when what you're suggesting he do had lower odds of producing a win.  Converting was extremely low percentage on 4th and long, so that's factored in.  Again, either way, we were losing this game, what Bowles did gave us a small improvement in odds, regardless of how you feel about the mentality - and again, I've even said I'd have gone for it there.  

Also, had we converted, the odds absolutely would not have risen exponentially.  In fact, once the Bills went up 21-12, the Jets got the ball back with 12:42 left in the game, the Bills were given an 89.9% chance of winning.  So, with over 3x as much time, you're only talking about the Jets having a 1/10 chance of winning.  I think it's safe to say that you wouldn't get back to 1/10 with less than 4 minutes left and the ball at midfield.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, Pac said:

Lach had already had a number of good punts.  The hope is you pin them inside the 10 and either get a 3 and out or a possible fumble.  I see the logic and agreed with the decision as it played out.

Not converting and giving them the ball on their 44 means we use 3 timeouts and pray shady doesn't get the first.  Even if he doesn't they could still be in FG range.

You punt and stop and a TD and FG wins...  If they get a FG you have about a minute and no timeouts to get 2 TD's.  

I'm surprised how much was made of the whole thing..  I think going for it was the worse option.

Worse than the Jets being this bad, is having to agree with Pac.

[peebag]

18 hours ago, T0mShane said:

As someone who said stuff before the internet and after the internet, the difference is that the stuff you said before the internet you only said to people who were similarly stupid on your level. Post internet, you'd say that same stupid stuff and a smart person would swoop in and rinse your ear canals with his online penis and you'd learn for the first time that growing up in Appalachia left you a true dumbass, relatively speaking. 

so you've had your ear canals filled with penises?

[rex-n-effect]

54 minutes ago, peebag said:

so you've had your ear canals filled with penises?

Like you have to ask?

[Pac]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Worse than the Jets being this bad, is having to agree with Pac.

I'm not thrilled about it either..  more fun to argue.

[JetFreak89]

21 hours ago, gEYno said:

I think it's fairly obvious at this point that the team has a much lower opinion of Bryce Petty than the fans do.  They've seen plenty of him in practice and in film rooms and meetings.  Fans just want to see it for themselves because they have this absurd notion that they know as much as the coaches and will only believe that Petty can't play when they decide for themselves that Petty can't play.

It's a hard sell that fear of failure is the reason behind starting McCown, considering McCown has won 11 football games in 11 seasons and is something like 2 for his last 22.  Seems like failure is pretty much assured.  Jackson may not have evidence that Kizer will succeed, but he may have enough evidence to think that he might.  It seems rather obvious that the Jets have enough evidence (including 99% of which you don't get to see) that Bryce Petty is not an NFL starter at this time.

That "valid reason" that you are downplaying and treating as an afterthought, is the simplest, most elegant explanation... That Bryce Petty is not an NFL caliber QB.

Lastly, the equally good reason for starting McCown, and the "upside" is that establishes a minimum level of competence at the position which gives our young WRs and other offensive players a chance to develop.  If Petty can't play at all, those guys suffer.

While this may be true, the argument still hinges on the fact that fans would need to trust the coaching staff to make the decision on when to play Petty based on his production in practice. 

This is the same coaching staff that has routinely relied on clearly diminished vets rather than playing their young counterparts in pretty much every other position. Everyone could see last year that Powell was much better than Forte. Why did it take Forte getting injured for Powell to get his chance? 

What has this coaching staff shown that gives you any assurance that they would make the right call on who to play at QB? If we had Andy Reid as a HC, I would agree okay maybe Petty isn't the guy and never will be. Sorry but no one in this organization has done anything to justify that kind of trust. 

[ZachEY]

24 minutes ago, JetFreak89 said:

While this may be true, the argument still hinges on the fact that fans would need to trust the coaching staff to make the decision on when to play Petty based on his production in practice. 

This is the same coaching staff that has routinely relied on clearly diminished vets rather than playing their young counterparts in pretty much every other position. Everyone could see last year that Powell was much better than Forte. Why did it take Forte getting injured for Powell to get his chance? 

What has this coaching staff shown that gives you any assurance that they would make the right call on who to play at QB? If we had Andy Reid as a HC, I would agree okay maybe Petty isn't the guy and never will be. Sorry but no one in this organization has done anything to justify that kind of trust. 

I agree with all of this in the sense that if you believe that you know as much about Bryce Petty from last seasons performance, limited preseason action, and Connor Hughes camp tweets, as a group of people who see him every day in practice, on film, and in meetings and have played at the NFL level, worked their way up the coaching ranks, and dedicate 80+ hours a week to NFL football, then you couldn't possibly accept that they would make the right decisions.  Thinking you have 1/10 the understanding of even a below average head coach such as Todd Bowles et al doesn't strike me as reasonable, but should you feel that way, I can certainly see thinking you need the confirmation of what the coaching staff has already decided on.

That said, the idea that we only play veterans isn't really all that true when looked at across the current and even past rosters.  To your specific example, I like Powell too, and I'd like him to get more carries, but, I'm reminded of Lamont Jordan as Curtis Martin's back-up vs. Lamont Jordan as a full time back.  So, that alone isn't enough to make me think the team is holding back the young guys.  The other place is at QB, but when looked at objectively, year 1 was supposed to be Geno, until he got punched in the face.  Then the vet took over and was successful.  Year 2 was always going to be Fitz, after narrowly missing the playoffs, the choice was largely illusory.  Year 3, blame Mac for the fact that Josh McCown is the best QB on this roster.  We can fantisize about what Bryce Petty or Christian Hackenberg could be, but the reality is, they aren't.  They can't get the job done, or they would be.  It would be to Todd Bowles et al's advantage to have them out there, and they gave Hackenberg more opportunity than he deserved to win it - He couldn't.  Beyond that, this year is essentially all young guys.  You have a problem with Kearse getting reps at WR?  Blame Mac, Kearse wasn't on the roster until recently, and today he's our best WR.

[Larz]

I would just like to point out that with the new CBA the first regular season game is like what the 3rd preseason game used to be. 

It takes 3 regular season games to know what you are

[The Crusher]

6 minutes ago, Larz said:

I would just like to point out that with the new CBA the first regular season game is like what the 3rd preseason game used to be. 

It takes 3 regular season games to know what you are

"You are what you're record says you are ." 

[BurnleyJet]

8 hours ago, gEYno said:

For what it's worth, ESPN does that win probability tracker and the Bills chances of winning actually dropped after the punt from 98.3% to 95.9%.

Stopped reading at ESPN.

[Larz]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

"You are what you're record says you are ." 

Yeah but my point was more about the overall quality of play and matching up against a variety of opponents. 

The Jets are also still working out the kinks of the new offense and McCown got few reps in the preseason games.

Lots of keys players also just got here last week.

 

[The Crusher]

3 minutes ago, Larz said:

Yeah but my point was more about the overall quality of play and matching up against a variety of opponents. 

The Jets are also still working out the kinks of the new offense and McCown got few reps in the preseason games.

Lots of keys players also just got here last week.

 

Be reasonable.

[NYs Stepchild]

5 hours ago, gEYno said:

I agree with all of this in the sense that if you believe that you know as much about Bryce Petty from last seasons performance, limited preseason action, and Connor Hughes camp tweets, as a group of people who see him every day in practice, on film, and in meetings and have played at the NFL level, worked their way up the coaching ranks, and dedicate 80+ hours a week to NFL football, then you couldn't possibly accept that they would make the right decisions.  Thinking you have 1/10 the understanding of even a below average head coach such as Todd Bowles et al doesn't strike me as reasonable, but should you feel that way, I can certainly see thinking you need the confirmation of what the coaching staff has already decided on.

That said, the idea that we only play veterans isn't really all that true when looked at across the current and even past rosters.  To your specific example, I like Powell too, and I'd like him to get more carries, but, I'm reminded of Lamont Jordan as Curtis Martin's back-up vs. Lamont Jordan as a full time back.  So, that alone isn't enough to make me think the team is holding back the young guys.  The other place is at QB, but when looked at objectively, year 1 was supposed to be Geno, until he got punched in the face.  Then the vet took over and was successful.  Year 2 was always going to be Fitz, after narrowly missing the playoffs, the choice was largely illusory.  Year 3, blame Mac for the fact that Josh McCown is the best QB on this roster.  We can fantisize about what Bryce Petty or Christian Hackenberg could be, but the reality is, they aren't.  They can't get the job done, or they would be.  It would be to Todd Bowles et al's advantage to have them out there, and they gave Hackenberg more opportunity than he deserved to win it - He couldn't.  Beyond that, this year is essentially all young guys.  You have a problem with Kearse getting reps at WR?  Blame Mac, Kearse wasn't on the roster until recently, and today he's our best WR.

Are these the same guys that said Brady's ceiling was a game manager 3 years in. Crazy to let Bledsoe go. The same that said Kaep, and RG3 were going to be great, and that Rivers was miles ahead of Brees?  

The same that voted Mac GM of the year? 

[jetspenguin]

So basically another thread complaining about the coach?