Does Eli Manning Deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

You mean Welker's bad drop

Yep my bad.

[nyjunc]

Not only does he not deserve to be in the HOF, he doesn't even deserve to be considered.  he has been a mediocre QB his entire career w/ the exception of a season or 2.  2 very good months where his D led them to both titles does not make up for 10+ seasons of mediocre play.

He has NEVER made even 2nd team all pro.

he has made 4 pro bowls but two of them were as injury replacements where he didn't earn it.

he has never led in any major statistical category other than INTERCEPTIONS which he has led THREE times.

He has played 13 seasons and only made the playoffs 6 times, he has been one and done FOUR times.

He has been SHUT OUT at HOME in the playoffs- for reference mark Sanchez never led an O to less than 17 pts in a playoff game and he did it w/ less talent around him than Eli. Oh and he also led O's to 9 and 13 pts in 2 other playoff games.

He has 2 Super Bowl MVPs but we know he didn't deserve either and they default to QBs more often than not.  The Giants D held NE to 14 and 17 points in the 2 SBs. That was 24 and 15 points below their reg season averages against the greatest QB of all time who in his other 5 SBs has led his O's to an average of 26 PPG.

He has NEVER won a single playoff game when his D has allowed more than 20 points.

Let's look at those SB runs:

2007:

at TB: W 24-14, hold TB to 14 which was 7 below season average and force 3 TOs

at Dal: W 21-17, hold Dal to 11 below season average. 1 TO

at GB: W 23-20(OT), hold GB to 7 less than season average in 5 qtrs., force INT that sets up GW FG to send them to SB.  2 TOs

vs. NE: W 17-14, hold NE to 24 pts below season avg. 1 TO

Held opposing Os to over 12 PPG less than season averaged and forced 7 TOs- almost 2 per game.

2011:

vs. Atl: W 24-2. D shuts out Atl, 25 less than season average.

at GB: W 37-20. Holds GB to 15 less than avg., forces 4 TOs

at SF: W 20-17(OT). Holds SF to 7 less than average in 5 qtrs. 2 TOs.  In 3rd, 4th and OT he led NYG to 10 points- each score came off a fumbled/muffed punt to set them up deep in SF territory including the GW in OT.

vs. NE: W 21-17, held NE to 15 less than average and scored a safety which proved huge.  1 TO

held opposing Os to 16 PPG less than season average, forced 7 TOs which again is almost 2 per game.

 

Eli is a solid starter, dependable.  you know he will line up every week but you also know you will get mostly mediocre play out of him every week.  he can win some games for you, he can lose some games for you.  He missed the playoffs 6 of 7 years, has only won playoff games in 2 seasons.  The Hall of fame is supposed to be for the best of the best- the all time greats.  How can it be taken seriously by putting such a mediocre QB in?  he has been durable and that is the best thing you can say about him so in this pass happy era he has thrown a lot and compiled some mostly meaningless #s but again w/ SB talent he won 10 and 9 games and w/ talented teams he went through a stretch of one postseason in 6 years.

 

He's not a Hall of Famer.

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

His stats compare very favorably to many HOF players....  Bob Griese for one, Jurgensen and many others. 

I don't like it either....  but if stats are the only measure, Namath ain't even close. 

so you are going to compare stats from this pass happy era to those of players from the 70s?  seriously?

Griese vs. Eli:

Griese: 8 time PB, 2x all pro

Eli 4x PB, ZERO time All Pro(not even second team)

big edge Griese

pass yds:

Griese: 1x top 5(4th), Eli  2x(highest was 5th)

slight edge Eli

pass TDs:

griese 3x top 5, led 1 time. Eli 2x top 5(highest was 4th)

big edge Griese

rating:

Griese 6x top 5, led 1 time. Eli ZERO times top 5, only top 10 one time(7th)

HUGE edge Griese

INTs:

Griese 1 time top 5(3rd). Eli 5 times top 5 and led league 3 times

Eli isn't close to Griese

 

Jurgensen:

5x PB, 2x All pro

big edge Sonny

pass yds:

6 times top 5, led FIVE times.

HUGE edge Sonny

pass TDs:

7 times top 5, led 2x

HUGE edge Sonny

rating:

7 times top 5, led 1x.

HUGE edge Sonny

INTs:

5 x top 5, led twice

slight edge Sonny

 

come on, please at least try make a reasonable argument.

 

 

[nyjunc]

12 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

His stats compare very favorably to many HOF players....  Bob Griese for one, Jurgensen and many others. 

I don't like it either....  but if stats are the only measure, Namath ain't even close. 

Joe made it b/c of what he meant to the game not b/c of his play on the field.  Joe was a big reason  why this game grew at such a rapid pace and he won the biggest game in pro football history.  Eli doesn't have that on his resume.

 

 

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

2 Super Bowl Rings

2 Super Bowl MVP's

4 Pro-Bowls

320-217 TD/INT ratio

8th on all-time passing yards list

Um...Yeah, I would say he deserves the HOF nod.....

2 SB rings thanks to incredible D

2 undeserved SB MVPS where he led his O to 17 and 19 pts

4 pro bowls where he only made 2 and was an injury replacement in the other 2.

led NFL THREE times in INTs

8th I yds, 7th in attempts.  he's a complier in a pass happy era.

 

2 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Then Joe Namath needs to be out of the Hall of Fame.

Eli is a 1st or 2nd ballot HOF player.  Cut and dry.

Joe is not in b/c of his #s, he is in b/c of what he meant to the growth of this league and this game and even w/ his mediocre #s Joe has more top 5 seasons in yards, TDs, rating than Eli.

 

 

[southparkcpa]

9 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

so you are going to compare stats from this pass happy era to those of players from the 70s?  seriously?

Griese vs. Eli:

Griese: 8 time PB, 2x all pro

Eli 4x PB, ZERO time All Pro(not even second team)

big edge Griese

pass yds:

Griese: 1x top 5(4th), Eli  2x(highest was 5th)

slight edge Eli

pass TDs:

griese 3x top 5, led 1 time. Eli 2x top 5(highest was 4th)

big edge Griese

rating:

Griese 6x top 5, led 1 time. Eli ZERO times top 5, only top 10 one time(7th)

HUGE edge Griese

INTs:

Griese 1 time top 5(3rd). Eli 5 times top 5 and led league 3 times

Eli isn't close to Griese

 

Jurgensen:

5x PB, 2x All pro

big edge Sonny

pass yds:

6 times top 5, led FIVE times.

HUGE edge Sonny

pass TDs:

7 times top 5, led 2x

HUGE edge Sonny

rating:

7 times top 5, led 1x.

HUGE edge Sonny

INTs:

5 x top 5, led twice

slight edge Sonny

 

come on, please at least try make a reasonable argument.

 

 

Tell it to the committee when he gets inducted.  

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, southparkcpa said:

Tell it to the committee when he gets inducted.  

I hope the committee isn't as ill informed as the average fan.  it will be an embarrassing day for the Hall if he even is a legit finalist.

[joewilly12]

Who cares? 

[SenorGato]

I'm going with a no 

[HessStation]

25 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Not only does he not deserve to be in the HOF, he doesn't even deserve to be considered.  he has been a mediocre QB his entire career w/ the exception of a season or 2.  2 very good months where his D led them to both titles does not make up for 10+ seasons of mediocre play.

He has NEVER made even 2nd team all pro.

he has made 4 pro bowls but two of them were as injury replacements where he didn't earn it.

he has never led in any major statistical category other than INTERCEPTIONS which he has led THREE times.

He has played 13 seasons and only made the playoffs 6 times, he has been one and done FOUR times.

He has been SHUT OUT at HOME in the playoffs- for reference mark Sanchez never led an O to less than 17 pts in a playoff game and he did it w/ less talent around him than Eli. Oh and he also led O's to 9 and 13 pts in 2 other playoff games.

He has 2 Super Bowl MVPs but we know he didn't deserve either and they default to QBs more often than not.  The Giants D held NE to 14 and 17 points in the 2 SBs. That was 24 and 15 points below their reg season averages against the greatest QB of all time who in his other 5 SBs has led his O's to an average of 26 PPG.

He has NEVER won a single playoff game when his D has allowed more than 20 points.

Let's look at those SB runs:

2007:

at TB: W 24-14, hold TB to 14 which was 7 below season average and force 3 TOs

at Dal: W 21-17, hold Dal to 11 below season average. 1 TO

at GB: W 23-20(OT), hold GB to 7 less than season average in 5 qtrs., force INT that sets up GW FG to send them to SB.  2 TOs

vs. NE: W 17-14, hold NE to 24 pts below season avg. 1 TO

Held opposing Os to over 12 PPG less than season averaged and forced 7 TOs- almost 2 per game.

2011:

vs. Atl: W 24-2. D shuts out Atl, 25 less than season average.

at GB: W 37-20. Holds GB to 15 less than avg., forces 4 TOs

at SF: W 20-17(OT). Holds SF to 7 less than average in 5 qtrs. 2 TOs.  In 3rd, 4th and OT he led NYG to 10 points- each score came off a fumbled/muffed punt to set them up deep in SF territory including the GW in OT.

vs. NE: W 21-17, held NE to 15 less than average and scored a safety which proved huge.  1 TO

held opposing Os to 16 PPG less than season average, forced 7 TOs which again is almost 2 per game.

 

Eli is a solid starter, dependable.  you know he will line up every week but you also know you will get mostly mediocre play out of him every week.  he can win some games for you, he can lose some games for you.  He missed the playoffs 6 of 7 years, has only won playoff games in 2 seasons.  The Hall of fame is supposed to be for the best of the best- the all time greats.  How can it be taken seriously by putting such a mediocre QB in?  he has been durable and that is the best thing you can say about him so in this pass happy era he has thrown a lot and compiled some mostly meaningless #s but again w/ SB talent he won 10 and 9 games and w/ talented teams he went through a stretch of one postseason in 6 years.

 

He's not a Hall of Famer.

Although "I think" the 2 SBs and career stats will get him in, I argee with everything you're saying. 

[Obrien2Toon]

Only finished in top 10 in qb rating 3 times.

And they were 6,7,9.

Most other years middle to back of the pack

[Jet9]

According to ProFootballReference his career numbers compare to Brunnel, Jim Kelly, Bradshaw, McNabb, Bledsoe, McNair, Romo, Carson Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Troy Aikman. 

[southparkcpa]

15 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I hope the committee isn't as ill informed as the average fan.  it will be an embarrassing day for the Hall if he even is a legit finalist.

Hey... im sort of on your side, my gut tells me he gets in. 

[tuffhand]

6 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

The 2 Superbowl upsets are going to get him in, but I've never viewed him as an elite quarterback. He's been a top 10 guy at his best.

If Joe Flacco got hot for another year and won a Superbowl, they are career equivalents IMO. Eli will get in, Flacco wouldn't. Eli's wins were all-time upsets and he's a Manning.

Maybe not a JAG but not elite, and the past two years have not been good. Having said that, the NY media loves him so they tread very lightly with their criticism.

[Hael]

He will but he shouldn't.  He's one of the most overrated qbs of all time.  The two years he won sbs he had the best wr tandems in the league and great talent all around him.  Even there he only got hot for about 5 games at the end of the year to just barely squeeze into the playoffs.  So that's really only about ten games of elite QB play.  Even there the Pats dropped an easy int in 07 and the ridiculous helmet catch was necessary in order to win that game, and then Welker had to drop a gimme pass in order to win the other.  The dice rolled right for him, as they did for Flacco, but at the end of the day he has never been elite like some of the other qbs of his generation.  

Stats badly lie in this pass heavy era, so that definitely is not a good argument.  He never really passed the eye test except during those runs, and it's not like we haven't seen other not so great qbs happen to turn it on with the right team at the right time..  

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, Jet9 said:

According to ProFootballReference his career numbers compare to Brunnel, Jim Kelly, Bradshaw, McNabb, Bledsoe, McNair, Romo, Carson Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Troy Aikman. 

If that's the case, then I have to say yes he deserves it.  I agree w/ others who said durability/longevity is probably his most exceptional strength (other than the 2 amazing SB runs!)  In other sports I might have more of an issue with an "accumulator" going to the HOF but, in the NFL, it's a big deal to be out there year after year.  Having said that, the OP said he knows Eli will go to the HOF but his question was "does he deserve to go to the HOF?".

By the standards that I feel like the HOF should be, I would say no he doesn't really deserve it.  I feel HOFers should have several seasons where they dominate the league.  I'm talking Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers type players.  I don't really feel like Eli lived up to that level of greatness.  Note that I do think post-season performance should have added weight in the judging.  And Eli very much excelled in that area.  But I still don't feel in my gut that his career quite lived up to what I think the HOF should be.

[The Crusher]

4 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Honestly, his longevity is probably the most impressive thing about his career. Staying healthy and compiling.

But he's never been a top tier QB. Never been on an All Pro team. Most of his Pro Bowls were because better players backed out or were injured. He's only won 11 or more games twice. Only won the NFC East three times, one of which was with a 9-7 record. His career passer rating is in the low 80s, far below tons of non-Hall of Famers of his generation -- hell he's only had a passer rating above 90 three times. He led the league in interceptions 3 times.

Super Bowl MVPs? People keep referencing that like they're unaware he won by default. In 2007 the Giants front 4 dominated the best offense of all time and the Giants won the game 17-14... And Eli was the best player on the field? Get out of here. Justin Tuck should have been SB MVP.

The guy is basically Joe Flacco in New York. He'll get in because of New York, his name, and the Super Bowls (specifically his role in SB 42) but I can't believe people are defending the idea that he actually belongs in the HoF. By that standard pretty much every QB to win a SB or go to a Pro Bowl in the last 20 years should be in.

He won two. Not one. Big difference. Played big in big spots in biggest game. I'm ok with any QB winning two Suoerbowl with MVP's in the hall of Fame. We can start there and work up. 

[nyjunc]

13 hours ago, Jet9 said:

According to ProFootballReference his career numbers compare to Brunnel, Jim Kelly, Bradshaw, McNabb, Bledsoe, McNair, Romo, Carson Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Troy Aikman. 

keep in mind outside of Romo, Palmer and Ben the other guys played in very different eras and Brunell, Bledsoe, McNabb(who was much better than Eli), palmer have no shot to get in. 

A lot of people like to compare him to Ben, I think Ben is a million times better. plays in tougher division, wins more games, wins more playoff games, the only negative is Ben isn't durable which is why their compiled #s are similar.  I think Ben is a lock HOFer and Eli doesn't deserve it but when you look at compiled #s w/o context they look similar.

 

Eli has zero AP teams, Ben 1x 2nd team

 

Ben has 5 legit Pro Bowl selections, Eli has 2

 

total pass attempts:

Eli 6895

Ben 6003

892 more pass attempts, that's a lot.

TD passes:

Eli 321

Ben 305

if we prorate Ben pass attempts to Eli's then Ben would have 350

pass yds:

Eli 48,673

Ben 47,320

let's prorate to Eli's attempts: 54,351

starting to see why Eli's compiled #s are on par w/ Ben?

passer rating:

Eli top 5 ZERO

Ben: 6x(highest was 2nd)

career comp %:

Eli 59.8

Ben 64.2

Playoffs:

Ben: won playoff games in 6 different postseason

Eli: 2

Ben: 5 title game apps

Eli: 2

Ben: 3 SB apps

Eli: 2

 

Ben: longest playoff drought was 2 years(missed 2012 and 2013(team was 7-6 w/ him and 8-8)

Eli: 4 years(and 5 of 6 yrs in  much weaker division)

 

record as starter:

Eli: 108-93, 54%

Ben: 125-60, 68%

 

pts led O's to in SBs:

Eli 18 PPG

Ben: 22 PPG, Ben's lowest amount he led an O to is higher than Eli's highest amount.

 

 

This is the guy people think Eli is closest to, the reality is he's not close to him b/c he is not close to being a legitimate Hall of Famer.

 

 

 

[nyjunc]

11 hours ago, The Crusher said:

He won two. Not one. Big difference. Played big in big spots in biggest game. I'm ok with any QB winning two Suoerbowl with MVP's in the hall of Fame. We can start there and work up. 

he didn't deserve either MVP, he led his O to 17 and 19 pts while his Ds held down historically great offenses. 

The only Super Bowl winners to score less to win a SB were:

1968 Jets

1970 Colts

1972 Dolphins

 

he's a modern day Jim Plunkett.  can win w/ really good team around him but not a HOFer.

 

[nyjunc]

12 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

If that's the case, then I have to say yes he deserves it.  I agree w/ others who said durability/longevity is probably his most exceptional strength (other than the 2 amazing SB runs!)  In other sports I might have more of an issue with an "accumulator" going to the HOF but, in the NFL, it's a big deal to be out there year after year.  Having said that, the OP said he knows Eli will go to the HOF but his question was "does he deserve to go to the HOF?".

By the standards that I feel like the HOF should be, I would say no he doesn't really deserve it.  I feel HOFers should have several seasons where they dominate the league.  I'm talking Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers type players.  I don't really feel like Eli lived up to that level of greatness.  Note that I do think post-season performance should have added weight in the judging.  And Eli very much excelled in that area.  But I still don't feel in my gut that his career quite lived up to what I think the HOF should be.

In 4 of his 6 postseasons(how many HOFers in parity era only made playoffs 6 times in 13+ year career?) he went one and done. yes he was really good in those 2 runs but he has NEVER won a playoff game when his D allowed more than 20 points. 

let's look at HOFers that played in the 80s and beyond and see how many never won a PO game when D allowing more than 20.  also let's check how many made it under 50% of seasons

Dan Fouts, made it 4 of basically 9 full seasons, 44%- similar but Fouts set records, was multiple all pro and 2 of his playoff wins opponents scored 38 and 28.

Joe Montana- no need to even post

Jim Kelly: took over worst team in football by the way, made POs 8x in 11 seasons, won PO games when opponent scored 34

John Elway: 10 PO apps in 15 seasons, 67%. won PO games when opponent scored 33, a SB when opp scored 24

Steve Young(who I think is very overrated but a deserving HOFer): 7 PO apps in 9 seasons as starter. won PO games when opps scored 28 & 27

Dan Marino: 10 PO apps in 16 seasons, 63%. won PO game w/ opp scoring 28

Warren Moon: 7 PO apps in 13 seasons, 54%. even Warren Moon who was terrible postseason QB won a game when opp scored 23

Troy Aikman: took over worst team in football.  made PO 8x in 12 seasons. won PO game where opp scored 27

Brett favre: 12 POs in 19 seasons, 63%. legendary PO choker but he won games where opps scored 24 & 27

Kurt Warner: took over awful franchises and led both to SBs.  5 PO apps in basically 6 full seasons.  won  PO games when opps scored 37, 24, 24, 25 and FORTY FIVE

 

 

are we saying Eli belongs on a list w/ these players? seriously? all b/c his D shut down historically great offenses and allowed him to win SBs by leading O to 17 and 19 pts?

[SenorGato]

17 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

His stats compare very favorably to many HOF players....  Bob Griese for one, Jurgensen and many others. 

I don't like it either....  but if stats are the only measure, Namath ain't even close. 

We can't just take these stats at face value. Passing during Eli's NFL career has been insanely more efficient than any other era in the NFL, and the rule book is currently built for QBs to put up numbers. Without looking my guess is that those guys blow away their non-HOF peers, whereas Manning doesn't stack statistically with the best passers of his day. 

[southtown24th]

Do I think so? No.

 

Will he be? Yes.

 

Super Bowls and Super Bowl MVPs.

[southparkcpa]

40 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

We can't just take these stats at face value. Passing during Eli's NFL career has been insanely more efficient than any other era in the NFL, and the rule book is currently built for QBs to put up numbers. Without looking my guess is that those guys blow away their non-HOF peers, whereas Manning doesn't stack statistically with the best passers of his day. 

 

23 minutes ago, southtown24th said:

Do I think so? No.

 

Will he be? Yes.

 

Super Bowls and Super Bowl MVPs.

Senor....  see southtowns response.  He echo's what I believe.

[ScarletKnight89]

The people arguing against Eli being in the HOF are absolutely correct. He's really not deserving. He isn't a HOF QB.

But he's going in. He just is.

[JoJoTownsell1]

2 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

The people arguing against Eli being in the HOF are absolutely correct. He's really not deserving. He isn't a HOF QB.

But he's going in. He just is.

Yup, that's the sad  truth. Eli has never been a great QB. He has never been the best/2nd  best QB in football (for a given year), but he was always good enough to win a super bowl if things fell right for him and his team. Just look at how many years Eli missed the playoffs and/or made the playoffs and got knocked out without winning a game. 

[thebuzzardman]

21 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Then Joe Namath needs to be out of the Hall of Fame.

Eli is a 1st or 2nd ballot HOF player.  Cut and dry.

The painful truth right here

[TuscanyTile2]

Is there a NY Giants forum we can post the OP's question to?  It would be very interesting to hear responses from Giant fans.

[Kleckineau]

There are multiple QBs in the HOF that did not win a championship ring.

Are there any with 2 rings that didnt make it in?

[glenn31]

He's gonna be in The Hall, probably 2nd ballot. But as the years go on and future generations who didn't see him play become the voices in sports media, he'll get the Joe Namath "let's take a second look at this cat" treatment due to his mediocre average numbers.

[UntouchableCrew]

6 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

There are multiple QBs in the HOF that did not win a championship ring.

Are there any with 2 rings that didnt make it in?

I mean, of course there are many great players of all positions who never won a ring. You can be a great individual player in a team sport and not win a ring.

Jim Plunkett has multiple Super Bowl rings and isn't in the Hall of Fame.

[Kleckineau]

5 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I mean, of course there are many great players of all positions who never won a ring. You can be a great individual player in a team sport and not win a ring.

Jim Plunkett has multiple Super Bowl rings and isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Answered my question thank you.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, thebuzzardman said:

The painful truth right here

Joe based on his playing career does not belong, Joe is in the Hall for what he meant to the growth of pro football.  He was nowhere near the best player or best QB but he is the most important player to ever play pro football and that is why he is in and on the #s we cannot compare a QB in this era to a QB from that era.  we can compare them against their peers:

all pro:

Joe 1x(this doesn't count AFL APs) 

Eli ZERO, not even a 2nd team

top 5 pass yds:

Joe: 6(led 3 times)

Eli: 2(highest finish was 5th)

top 5 pass TDs:

Joe:7(led once)

Eli: 2(highest was 4th)

rating:

Joe: 4(highest 3rd)

eli: ZERO

INTs is where they are comparable:

Eli led 3 times

Joe led 4 times

 

both won SBs b/c of their defenses, Eli just happened to win 2 of them. 

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

There are multiple QBs in the HOF that did not win a championship ring.

Are there any with 2 rings that didnt make it in?

Plunkett is the only one and Eli's career is very similar.  Both struggled early then became solid starters but never top end starters.  Neither belongs in the Hall.

[Kleckineau]

Ken Stabler had to die before they let him in.

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

Ken Stabler had to die before they let him in.

and he had a much better career than Eli which included a league MVP. 

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

Ken Stabler had to die before they let him in.

 

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

and he had a much better career than Eli which included a league MVP. 

Don't think Eli had any gambling links to the DeCavalcantes, did he?