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Does Eli Manning Deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


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3 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

Fairly or not QB's of Super Bowl winning teams are viewed differently to his team mates. Unless they are deemed super stars like Michael Strahan. 

He Won two SB's on great D, an unbelievable catch, and an unbelievable drop.

He's a very middling QB, unlike his brother. If Payton was a Giant and Eli a Colt he'd have zero rings, his brother would have more than two.

He has 2 rings.    He also led the league in INTs 3 times, did not complete 60% of his passes for a career, has a 3:2 TD to INT ratio (which in today's game is really bad).   But his Dad likes him, so he'll get in.

He's like the modern day Bob Griese.   Griese routinely threw for under 2000 yards, led the league in completion % once, even though he had an all time O Line, running backs, and a HOF wide receiver.   Oh, and the team's greatest season was the one where he missed most of the year.

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He's going to get in, but he wouldn't get my vote.

I'm kind of a hard marker, but I generally think the hall of fame should be reserved for guys who were top 3 at their position for a decent fraction of their careers. Eli was always only marginally above average at best. His team went on two miraculous playoff runs and he has always had a knack for playing well in the playoffs and being dangerous in the 4th quarter of close games (which helps him a lot in the argument), but to me, he just hasn't been consistently dominant enough. 

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53 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

 was Eli eve a top 5 qb in the league? I would also do the browns test. If you put tom Brady on the browns, he is still HOF without question. If Eli was a career brown, we aren’t even having this conversation.

Was Martin? Eli has a long career, multiple pro bowl appearances, 50,000+ passing yards (maybe 60,000 by the time he's done), well over 300 TDs, 2 superbowl rings and 2 time superbowl MVP (deserved or not) and one of those rings was right up there with SBIII as the biggest upset ever).

He'll get in. Meanwhile the only standard stat he's ever led the league in is interceptions (3 times). 

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2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Yes for sure he will be in and he will have earned it.

2 time super bowl winner

2 time super bowl mvp

4 time pro bowler

6th all time passing yards

6th all time pass completions

8th all time passing tds

3rd in all time consecutive starts

Frankly, I only ever think about the SB's. I had no idea he was top 10 in so many career categories. He should get in even without the SB wins.

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2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Yes for sure he will be in and he will have earned it.

2 time super bowl winner

2 time super bowl mvp

4 time pro bowler

6th all time passing yards

6th all time pass completions

8th all time passing tds

3rd in all time consecutive starts

Manning will be first ballot HOF'er but I don't think he should be. 

4 pro bowls 14 years which means he was considered amongst the best QB's in the NFC only 4 times in 14 years.  That's not ELITE to me.  I think you need to be an elite player to make the HOF. That's my criteria anyway. 

He's accumulated nice career numbers because he's as tough as nails and has never been hurt, a very good quality as a QB, no doubt, but not a reason to vote him into the HOF.  He has been a good to very good QB for a long time and played at an elite level in the two biggest games of his life.  That is why he is a first ballot HOF'er.

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7 hours ago, nyjunc said:

if it happens it will be the biggest embarrassment in the history of any hall of fame.

Really? Look at some of the people in the baseball HOF. There are a LOT of stat accumulators in there. 

Manning played for a long time, stayed healthy, put up good numbers every year, had some big years, went to pro bowls, won championships. 

There are all sorts of MLB HOF'ers like that. 

Don Sutton? 

Billy Williams? 

I could go on. Anyway, different sport, but guys do get awarded for longevity when it's combined with very good stats. Add the championships, whether they were "all Eli" or "barely Eli" and that seals it for most sportswriters etc. I guess the argument is "deserving" but there are all sorts of barely deserving guys in every HOF and Eli pretty comfortably eclipses those guys

 

 

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4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Was Martin? Eli has a long career, multiple pro bowl appearances, 50,000+ passing yards (maybe 60,000 by the time he's done), well over 300 TDs, 2 superbowl rings and 2 time superbowl MVP (deserved or not) and one of those rings was right up there with SBIII as the biggest upset ever).

He'll get in. Meanwhile the only standard stat he's ever led the league in is interceptions (3 times). 

How many pro bowls did he get picked for, prior to qbs saying they didn’t want to go, or were hurt ? Lol. Come on man, Carson Palmer is right behind Eli in yardage total, ect lol. Does he make HOF too? It’s a passing league now. Kerry Collins is in front of joe Montana for Christ sake !?. Eli is not a very good qb. He was carried by the a very good giants team. The one yr they aren’t good, he couldn’t do anything. Well he was the qb of the 2nd worst team in nfl, behind team that was 0-16 for first time ever. Definitely not HOF

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On 9/19/2017 at 11:01 AM, Maxman said:

Yes. He played 200 plus straight games. Beat the Patriots twice in the Super Bowl. He goes in the first year he is eligible.

All true. 

But he's not a Hall of Famer. That said as I get older I find that the halls of each sport have (at times) become the Hall of Very Good.

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13 minutes ago, KINGDIRK said:

All true. 

But he's not a Hall of Famer. That said as I get older I find that the halls of each sport have (at times) become the Hall of Very Good.

I’d start to look into the Jet fans who think Eli is definitely deserving of the Hall. Maybe they have soft spot for NY giants, and have Eli jersey tucked away somewhere 

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21 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

Fairly or not QB's of Super Bowl winning teams are viewed differently to his team mates. Unless they are deemed super stars like Michael Strahan. 

He Won two SB's on great D, an unbelievable catch, and an unbelievable drop.

He's a very middling QB, unlike his brother. If Payton was a Giant and Eli a Colt he'd have zero rings, his brother would have more than two.

Jim Plunkett won 2 and played better and did more for his team along the way and Jim isn't in.  he is a modern day Jim Plunkett w/ inflated, compiled #s thanks to the rules of this era.

Peyton won 2 rings mostly b/c of his D too but Peyton was consistently GREAT throughout his career.  Eli was never great outside of some games here and there.

21 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

No more than Joe Namath.

 

It is also the Hall of "Fame" which is why IMO Namath is actually in it. His guarantee was a huge point in NFL history, had the Jets not won that Super Bowl the NFL would have broken apart. Eli has twice as many rings but has done something no other QB in this era has been able to do, beat Tom Brady in a Super Bowl. The 18-1 Super Bowl victory was arguably as famous if not more so than Namath's guarantee. If Eli was a Jets QB we'd be clamoring for him to be in the Hall of Fame so I don't see why we'd keep him out when our QB made it in.

No to mention his consecutive game streak in this sport is incredibly impressive. So yea I have no problem with Eli in the HoF.

Joe Namath does not deserve to be in based on his overall career, he does deserve it for what he meant to the game and he is in the Hall for that.  He helped turn the game into what it has become as far as our most popular sport.  Eli has done nothing like that.  he was a mediocre QB that played well in 2 playoff runs that were led by his D.

Eli didn't beat Tom Brady, the Giants DEFENSE beat Tom Brady.  Eli led his O's to 14 & 17 points in those 2 SBs. 

the streak is the only hall worthy part of his career but you don't get a medal just for showing up.

17 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Yes for sure he will be in and he will have earned it.

2 time super bowl winner

2 time super bowl mvp

4 time pro bowler

6th all time passing yards

6th all time pass completions

8th all time passing tds

3rd in all time consecutive starts

2x SB winner thanks to D

2x SB MVP b/c the QB gets it by default

4x pro bowler? sure but 2 of those were as injury replacement so he really only made 2 in 14 years.  4 isn't Hall worthy but 2 real ones?

awesome he's top 10 in some compiled #s but you left out that he's 6th all time in pass attempts so he should be no worse than 6th in all major categories. he spent his entire career in this era where rules were skewed toward pass offenses.  Greatness is not determined by compiled #s, he NEVER led a single major category other than INts which he led THREE times. He's never been all pro and most of his #s have been compiled in meaningless gam,es as he has led his talented teams(in a weak division) to missing the playoffs 7 of the last 9 seasons. 

But Eli is super clutch, right? he's only won playoff games in TWO postseasons, the other 4(only 6 in 14 years? how many HOFers can say that?) he was 1 and done.  He's never won a playoff game where his D allowed more than 20 points, this postseason 3 QBs who never had a postseason start before these playoffs have done that.  In ONE playoff loss Ben led his O to 42 points, that is the same number Eli has led his O's to in playoff losses COMBINED.

15 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Was Martin? Eli has a long career, multiple pro bowl appearances, 50,000+ passing yards (maybe 60,000 by the time he's done), well over 300 TDs, 2 superbowl rings and 2 time superbowl MVP (deserved or not) and one of those rings was right up there with SBIII as the biggest upset ever).

He'll get in. Meanwhile the only standard stat he's ever led the league in is interceptions (3 times). 

Yes Curtis was, Curtis led the NFL in rushing, was 2nd another time, 3rd another time.  He was always among the leaders. Curtis was also an all pro.  Curtis was no doubt deserving of the Hall, he was a great player, always considered one of the best RBs of his generation.  Eli has never made ANY all pro team, not the official ones, not the unofficial ones, he's only made 2 real pro bowls and was never at any point considered one of the best QBs in the game.

14 hours ago, ChuckkieB said:

Manning will be first ballot HOF'er but I don't think he should be. 

4 pro bowls 14 years which means he was considered amongst the best QB's in the NFC only 4 times in 14 years.  That's not ELITE to me.  I think you need to be an elite player to make the HOF. That's my criteria anyway. 

He's accumulated nice career numbers because he's as tough as nails and has never been hurt, a very good quality as a QB, no doubt, but not a reason to vote him into the HOF.  He has been a good to very good QB for a long time and played at an elite level in the two biggest games of his life.  That is why he is a first ballot HOF'er.

4 pro bowls but 2 real pro bowls, the other 2 he was an injury replacement so only 2 times in his entire career was he actually voted in. 4 isn't HOF worthy, 2 isn't HOF discussion worthy.

he led his O's to 17 & 19 pts, hard to call that an elite level.  He played well but if the D doesn't play a superhuman game against Brady they have no shot.  This man has NEVER won a playoff game where his D allowed more than 20 points.

13 hours ago, thebuzzardman said:

Really? Look at some of the people in the baseball HOF. There are a LOT of stat accumulators in there. 

Manning played for a long time, stayed healthy, put up good numbers every year, had some big years, went to pro bowls, won championships. 

There are all sorts of MLB HOF'ers like that. 

Don Sutton? 

Billy Williams? 

I could go on. Anyway, different sport, but guys do get awarded for longevity when it's combined with very good stats. Add the championships, whether they were "all Eli" or "barely Eli" and that seals it for most sportswriters etc. I guess the argument is "deserving" but there are all sorts of barely deserving guys in every HOF and Eli pretty comfortably eclipses those guys

 

 

This isn't baseball.

11 hours ago, Larz said:

Show me the list of guys with 2 superbowl MVP trophies not in the hall

He didn't deserve either one, SB MVP is based on one game.  if one has a borderline Hall worthy career maybe that puts you over the top but when a player like Eli has never been great he's not really Hall worthy.  The Hall is about sustained greatness, he has never demonstrated that ability.  He's been an average/slightly above average QB most of his career and spent the majority compiling #s in meaningless games b/c he couldn't make plays to help keep his team competitive.

NE scored 14 & 17 points in the 2 SBs, Eli led his Os to 17 & 19 pts. They won b/c of defense, Eli played well and did just barely enough but if Brady and the Pats O's are not shut down then the Giants wouldn't have had a chance.

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29 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Jim Plunkett won 2 and played better and did more for his team along the way and Jim isn't in.  he is a modern day Jim Plunkett w/ inflated, compiled #s thanks to the rules of this era.

Peyton won 2 rings mostly b/c of his D too but Peyton was consistently GREAT throughout his career.  Eli was never great outside of some games here and there.

Joe Namath does not deserve to be in based on his overall career, he does deserve it for what he meant to the game and he is in the Hall for that.  He helped turn the game into what it has become as far as our most popular sport.  Eli has done nothing like that.  he was a mediocre QB that played well in 2 playoff runs that were led by his D.

Eli didn't beat Tom Brady, the Giants DEFENSE beat Tom Brady.  Eli led his O's to 14 & 17 points in those 2 SBs. 

the streak is the only hall worthy part of his career but you don't get a medal just for showing up.

2x SB winner thanks to D

2x SB MVP b/c the QB gets it by default

4x pro bowler? sure but 2 of those were as injury replacement so he really only made 2 in 14 years.  4 isn't Hall worthy but 2 real ones?

awesome he's top 10 in some compiled #s but you left out that he's 6th all time in pass attempts so he should be no worse than 6th in all major categories. he spent his entire career in this era where rules were skewed toward pass offenses.  Greatness is not determined by compiled #s, he NEVER led a single major category other than INts which he led THREE times. He's never been all pro and most of his #s have been compiled in meaningless gam,es as he has led his talented teams(in a weak division) to missing the playoffs 7 of the last 9 seasons. 

But Eli is super clutch, right? he's only won playoff games in TWO postseasons, the other 4(only 6 in 14 years? how many HOFers can say that?) he was 1 and done.  He's never won a playoff game where his D allowed more than 20 points, this postseason 3 QBs who never had a postseason start before these playoffs have done that.  In ONE playoff loss Ben led his O to 42 points, that is the same number Eli has led his O's to in playoff losses COMBINED.

Yes Curtis was, Curtis led the NFL in rushing, was 2nd another time, 3rd another time.  He was always among the leaders. Curtis was also an all pro.  Curtis was no doubt deserving of the Hall, he was a great player, always considered one of the best RBs of his generation.  Eli has never made ANY all pro team, not the official ones, not the unofficial ones, he's only made 2 real pro bowls and was never at any point considered one of the best QBs in the game.

4 pro bowls but 2 real pro bowls, the other 2 he was an injury replacement so only 2 times in his entire career was he actually voted in. 4 isn't HOF worthy, 2 isn't HOF discussion worthy.

he led his O's to 17 & 19 pts, hard to call that an elite level.  He played well but if the D doesn't play a superhuman game against Brady they have no shot.  This man has NEVER won a playoff game where his D allowed more than 20 points.

This isn't baseball.

He didn't deserve either one, SB MVP is based on one game.  if one has a borderline Hall worthy career maybe that puts you over the top but when a player like Eli has never been great he's not really Hall worthy.  The Hall is about sustained greatness, he has never demonstrated that ability.  He's been an average/slightly above average QB most of his career and spent the majority compiling #s in meaningless games b/c he couldn't make plays to help keep his team competitive.

NE scored 14 & 17 points in the 2 SBs, Eli led his Os to 17 & 19 pts. They won b/c of defense, Eli played well and did just barely enough but if Brady and the Pats O's are not shut down then the Giants wouldn't have had a chance.

Rotfl. Three different threads where you had the newest post. All dedicated to posting outlandishly contrarian BS about one or another of your signature bat signals. Someone had their morning coffee this AM!

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34 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Yes Curtis was, Curtis led the NFL in rushing, was 2nd another time, 3rd another time.  He was always among the leaders. Curtis was also an all pro.  Curtis was no doubt deserving of the Hall, he was a great player, always considered one of the best RBs of his generation.  Eli has never made ANY all pro team, not the official ones, not the unofficial ones, he's only made 2 real pro bowls and was never at any point considered one of the best QBs in the game.

He really wasn't, and yardage-total stats are due to opportunity - and having HCs more than willing to slavishly throw him out there even when he wasn't performing - more than being one of the league's most dangerous/deadly runners. Compiling as he did is a great career accomplishment, but that doesn't therefore mean the player was a dangerous RB in any individual year; just that the Jets ran the ball a lot, and had an OL and other means to do it.  

Surely you know that, as your whole post is trashing a 2-time champ QB who may finish his career with 60,000 passing yards. They're really both very similar in that regard, except Martin has no rings.

He was none of the things you allege. He was a 1-cut runner, not particularly fast, not particularly elusive, not particularly powerful, not a particularly great receiver, not at all good at breaking tackles, not particularly good at creating more than the OL gave him, and not particularly great at anything other than staying healthy for an impossibly long time, playing through injuries like few others could, and in general being very good but not great at a lot of things, but able to do it for a long time.

3 of his glorious PB appearances he had the ordinary, league-average 4.0 ypc or less. His career year you're kvelling about, he gained probably 80% of his yards against trash run defenses, with paths paved by one of the league's best OLs, and a D that allowed the team to keep running the ball ad nauseum.

He was never considered among the most dangerous RBs in any season, except by people recalling yardage-total stats after the fact. My on-field, rather than on-paper, memories of Martin are him running 10 yards through a 12 yard lane, and getting stuffed for 1 yard when there wasn't one.

And **** Eli Manning.

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1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Rotfl. Three different threads where you had the newest post. All dedicated to posting outlandishly contrarian BS about one or another of your signature bat signals. Someone had their morning coffee this AM!

why do you keep following me w/ nothing meaningful to add to the discussions?

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He really wasn't, and yardage-total stats are due to opportunity - and having HCs more than willing to slavishly throw him out there even when he wasn't performing - more than being one of the league's most dangerous/deadly runners. Compiling as he did is a great career accomplishment, but that doesn't therefore mean the player was a dangerous RB in any individual year; just that the Jets ran the ball a lot, and had an OL and other means to do it.  

Surely you know that, as your whole post is trashing a 2-time champ QB who may finish his career with 60,000 passing yards. They're really both very similar in that regard, except Martin has no rings.

He was none of the things you allege. He was a 1-cut runner, not particularly fast, not particularly elusive, not particularly powerful, not a particularly great receiver, not at all good at breaking tackles, not particularly good at creating more than the OL gave him, and not particularly great at anything other than staying healthy for an impossibly long time, playing through injuries like few others could, and in general being very good but not great at a lot of things, but able to do it for a long time.

3 of his glorious PB appearances he had the ordinary, league-average 4.0 ypc or less. His career year you're kvelling about, he gained probably 80% of his yards against trash run defenses, with paths paved by one of the league's best OLs, and a D that allowed the team to keep running the ball ad nauseum.

He was never considered among the most dangerous RBs in any season, except by people recalling yardage-total stats after the fact. My on-field, rather than on-paper, memories of Martin are him running 10 yards through a 12 yard lane, and getting stuffed for 1 yard when there wasn't one.

And **** Eli Manning.

he was always consistently one of the best RBs in football. Eli was never considered one of the top QBs in football.  Heck he wasn't even considered one of the top QBs in the NFC outside of 2 seasons.

Curtis was a 2 time 1st team all pro, 2 time 2nd team all pro.  Eli never made a single All pro team.

oh it was trash run defenses.

119 yds, 2 Tds at SD: SD was 3rd in rush yds allowed

119 yds, 2 TDs vs. Bal who was 8th in rush yds allowed

77 yds, 4.1 YPC vs. #1 Pitt in playoffs

but yeah it was all against trash run D's.  The teams he was great against wouldn't have been ranked as low if not for Curtis' games against them.

4.0 is good, anything 4.0 and above is good.

 

 

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7 hours ago, nyjunc said:

why do you keep following me w/ nothing meaningful to add to the discussions?

he was always consistently one of the best RBs in football. Eli was never considered one of the top QBs in football.  Heck he wasn't even considered one of the top QBs in the NFC outside of 2 seasons.

Curtis was a 2 time 1st team all pro, 2 time 2nd team all pro.  Eli never made a single All pro team.

oh it was trash run defenses.

119 yds, 2 Tds at SD: SD was 3rd in rush yds allowed

119 yds, 2 TDs vs. Bal who was 8th in rush yds allowed

77 yds, 4.1 YPC vs. #1 Pitt in playoffs

but yeah it was all against trash run D's.  The teams he was great against wouldn't have been ranked as low if not for Curtis' games against them.

4.0 is good, anything 4.0 and above is good.

 

 

I know you love to slant things and use some stats sometimes and purposely withhold others when it suits your needs, but it gets ridiculous.

The 119 yds vs SD required 32 carries. They were 3rd in rush yds allowed because they were 1st in fewest rush attempts against. But of course you knew that and conveniently left that tidbit out. Also SD as a team was a paper tiger that year; they were a 12-4 team that didn't beat anyone really good either. Their crowning achievement all season was a 3-point squeaker in their home game against the 10-win Broncos.

Baltimore was better, but again, he still took 28 carries to amass that total. That whole game - the Quincy Carter debacle game many of us remember quite well - he did nothing but take what the OL provided and nothing more. When we needed him to be an "elite" RB in the 4th quarter of a very close game? He finished up with carries of 2 yards, 2 yards, 3 yards, 2 yards, 6 yards (off tackle; room provided by OL), no gain, no gain, 3 yds, 21 yds, 5 yds, -1 yds, 2 yds, 3 yds. 13 carries for 48 yds, and 10 of them were for 3 yds or less, indicating even that lousy sub 4.0 avg was misleading, and the longer ones were thanks to the OL more than thanks to him unless you care to show otherwise in clips. In OT? a 2 yd carry and a 3 yd carry (neither of them coming in short-yardage situations). 

He was the king of taking what the OL gave him and little or no more than that.

The Pittsburgh playoff game? Are you kidding me? He sucked, and the ypc stat is misleading because Hackett would give him draw play carries on long yardage (e.g. 6 yds on 2nd & 18, 13 yds on 3rd & 24, 10 yds on 1st & 20), where it benefitted nothing but his stats (we still punted on the ensuing 4th down). So that's 36 totally useless yards for the team on 3 of his 19 carries. The rest of the day, when he didn't have huge running lanes, he was 16 carries for 51 yds (3.2) which is what his typical carry looked like all game long. I'd say you didn't watch the game if I didn't know better, so I know you're just being willfully ignorant by suggesting he had a good game. 

And mind you, this is the very best you can come up with for him against "top" defenses, from his marquis season. If you want to run stats to show how the teams he had good numbers against (i.e. the teams against whom the OL manhandled the opposing DL) would have otherwise been ranked as good run defense, you can go ahead. 

Plus 4.0 is not "good" it's the line of barely acceptable. Anything below that is considered poor (unless the back gets a disproportionate number of carries in short yardage). So one doesn't just make the leap from poor, to good. Rather - as you know - you go from poor to just ok and then to good (and then to great, which he wasn't). 

 

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Whether or not you think he deserves it, I think Eli will get into the HOF.  As for being a compiler, I think being on the field counts for a lot in the NFL.  Ask the Raiders last year when Derek Carr went down right before the playoffs.  Ask the Eagles the same of Carson Wentz this year.  Tom Brady has gone down only once in his entire career.

I know people like to put Eli down but he played with ice water in his veins in both SB runs.  And he beat Tom Brady in the SB twice.  Thinking about the games off the top of my head, I'd even go as far to say Eli was a better "big game QB" than Peyton.

As for Curtis Martin, I'm definitely a fan of his and it bugs me that Jet fans dismiss him as a compiler.  I think he was one of the greatest Jets we've had in decades.

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It never ceases to amaze me at all the time and trouble so called jet fans will go through, dissecting Martin's numbers to discredit the accomplishment of one of the true HOF players we've had.  Looking at nothing more than number totals years later is the first sign that you missed a fun ride.

Love the bent idea that he convinced HCs to play him when he wasn't productive.  As if he really ever was.  

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14 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I know you love to slant things and use some stats sometimes and purposely withhold others when it suits your needs, but it gets ridiculous.

The 119 yds vs SD required 32 carries. They were 3rd in rush yds allowed because they were 1st in fewest rush attempts against. But of course you knew that and conveniently left that tidbit out. Also SD as a team was a paper tiger that year; they were a 12-4 team that didn't beat anyone really good either. Their crowning achievement all season was a 3-point squeaker in their home game against the 10-win Broncos.

Baltimore was better, but again, he still took 28 carries to amass that total. That whole game - the Quincy Carter debacle game many of us remember quite well - he did nothing but take what the OL provided and nothing more. When we needed him to be an "elite" RB in the 4th quarter of a very close game? He finished up with carries of 2 yards, 2 yards, 3 yards, 2 yards, 6 yards (off tackle; room provided by OL), no gain, no gain, 3 yds, 21 yds, 5 yds, -1 yds, 2 yds, 3 yds. 13 carries for 48 yds, and 10 of them were for 3 yds or less, indicating even that lousy sub 4.0 avg was misleading, and the longer ones were thanks to the OL more than thanks to him unless you care to show otherwise in clips. In OT? a 2 yd carry and a 3 yd carry (neither of them coming in short-yardage situations). 

He was the king of taking what the OL gave him and little or no more than that.

The Pittsburgh playoff game? Are you kidding me? He sucked, and the ypc stat is misleading because Hackett would give him draw play carries on long yardage (e.g. 6 yds on 2nd & 18, 13 yds on 3rd & 24, 10 yds on 1st & 20), where it benefitted nothing but his stats (we still punted on the ensuing 4th down). So that's 36 totally useless yards for the team on 3 of his 19 carries. The rest of the day, when he didn't have huge running lanes, he was 16 carries for 51 yds (3.2) which is what his typical carry looked like all game long. I'd say you didn't watch the game if I didn't know better, so I know you're just being willfully ignorant by suggesting he had a good game. 

And mind you, this is the very best you can come up with for him against "top" defenses, from his marquis season. If you want to run stats to show how the teams he had good numbers against (i.e. the teams against whom the OL manhandled the opposing DL) would have otherwise been ranked as good run defense, you can go ahead. 

Plus 4.0 is not "good" it's the line of barely acceptable. Anything below that is considered poor (unless the back gets a disproportionate number of carries in short yardage). So one doesn't just make the leap from poor, to good. Rather - as you know - you go from poor to just ok and then to good (and then to great, which he wasn't). 

 

so controlling the game on the ground w/ 32 carries, 119 yds and 2 TDs is bad?

I can play this game too.

vs. Cin, averaged 6.8 YPC, for season Cin allowed 4.4. take away Curtis' game and Cin averaged less than 4.2

at Mia 4.6, Miami averaged 4.3, w/o Curtis averaged less than 4.2

vs. SF 4.4, SF averaged 4.0, I can go on but I hope you get the point.

vs. Mia 6.1, Miami averaged 4.3

vs. Bal 4.3, Bal averaged 3.6

vs. Cle 5.2, averaged 4.3

vs. Hou 5.8, Hou averaged 4.4

vs. Sea 5.6, Sea averaged 4.5

at SL 5.5, SL averaged 4.5

 

Oh and our starting QB missed 3 games, we went 2-1 in those games(should have been 3-0).  Curtis ran the ball 69 times for 306 yds, 4.4 YPC w/ 2 TDs.  The QB in those 3 games? 32-54, 424 yds, 2 TDs, 1 INT.  32 completions in 3 games, less than 11 per game and we won 2 of them and lost in OT in the 3rd.

 

so 6 yds on 2nd and 18 is bad? making it 3rd and manageable isn't a good thing?  you also have to factor in we had a QB w/ a TORN ROTATOR CUFF in his throwing shoulder, pitt knew we weren't throwing all over them making it easier to play the run. Here are his 19 carries:

1st and 10, 2 yds

2nd and 18, 6

1st and 10, 7 yds

2nd and 21, -3.  do we give hium bonus pts for losing yds in a long yardage situation?

3rd and 24, 13(only meaningless carry and it did give us more punting room)

1st and 10, 4 yds

2nd and 13, -1

2nd and 3, 3 yds

2nd and 10, 5 yds

1st and 10, 5 yds

2nd and 5, 7 yds

1st and 10, 3 yds

1st and 10, 1 yd

1st and 10, 4 yds

1st and 10. 4 yds

1st and 10, 3 yds

1st and 10, 0 yds

OT

1st and 10 4 yds called back by hold

1st and 20, 10 yds getting penalty yardage back

 

he was fine that day, as usual you are being unfair toward him.  Again, Curtis was one of the best RBs in football the majority of his career, Eli has never been one of the best QBs in football at any point of his career.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Whether or not you think he deserves it, I think Eli will get into the HOF.  As for being a compiler, I think being on the field counts for a lot in the NFL.  Ask the Raiders last year when Derek Carr went down right before the playoffs.  Ask the Eagles the same of Carson Wentz this year.  Tom Brady has gone down only once in his entire career.

I know people like to put Eli down but he played with ice water in his veins in both SB runs.  And he beat Tom Brady in the SB twice.  Thinking about the games off the top of my head, I'd even go as far to say Eli was a better "big game QB" than Peyton.

As for Curtis Martin, I'm definitely a fan of his and it bugs me that Jet fans dismiss him as a compiler.  I think he was one of the greatest Jets we've had in decades.

Eli didn't beat Brady twice, Eli's D beat Brady twice.  He only had to lead his O's to 14 & 17 points.  Eli has this big game reputation but look at what his D did, look at all the Tos they forced and the top Os they shut down making it easier to win.  The reality is Eli has only won playoff games in TWO postseasons, he's never won a PO game in any other postseason besides those 2 D led SB runs. He's NEVER won a playoff game where his D has allowed more than 20 pts in a game.  Eli is not a HOFer, when his career is over and people look at it realistically not just seeing meaningless compiled #s they will realize what a joke it is for him to even be discussed.  His compiled #s dwarf some of the all time greats b/c he played in this era where crazy passing #s were the norm and he accumulated those #s mostly in garbage time.  How many HOF QBs have ever led their teams to missing the playoffs 7 of 9 seasons?(in a weak division no less) how many have NEVER made a single all pro team of any kind? I know that answer- ZERO.  There is not a HOF QB that has never made one AP team of some kind.

He's basically Vinny testaverde w/ a better defense those 2 postseasons. 

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28 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

so controlling the game on the ground w/ 32 carries, 119 yds and 2 TDs is bad?

I can play this game too.

vs. Cin, averaged 6.8 YPC, for season Cin allowed 4.4. take away Curtis' game and Cin averaged less than 4.2

at Mia 4.6, Miami averaged 4.3, w/o Curtis averaged less than 4.2

vs. SF 4.4, SF averaged 4.0, I can go on but I hope you get the point.

vs. Mia 6.1, Miami averaged 4.3

vs. Bal 4.3, Bal averaged 3.6

vs. Cle 5.2, averaged 4.3

vs. Hou 5.8, Hou averaged 4.4

vs. Sea 5.6, Sea averaged 4.5

at SL 5.5, SL averaged 4.5

 

Oh and our starting QB missed 3 games, we went 2-1 in those games(should have been 3-0).  Curtis ran the ball 69 times for 306 yds, 4.4 YPC w/ 2 TDs.  The QB in those 3 games? 32-54, 424 yds, 2 TDs, 1 INT.  32 completions in 3 games, less than 11 per game and we won 2 of them and lost in OT in the 3rd.

 

so 6 yds on 2nd and 18 is bad? making it 3rd and manageable isn't a good thing?  you also have to factor in we had a QB w/ a TORN ROTATOR CUFF in his throwing shoulder, pitt knew we weren't throwing all over them making it easier to play the run. Here are his 19 carries:

1st and 10, 2 yds

2nd and 18, 6

1st and 10, 7 yds

2nd and 21, -3.  do we give hium bonus pts for losing yds in a long yardage situation?

3rd and 24, 13(only meaningless carry and it did give us more punting room)

1st and 10, 4 yds

2nd and 13, -1

2nd and 3, 3 yds

2nd and 10, 5 yds

1st and 10, 5 yds

2nd and 5, 7 yds

1st and 10, 3 yds

1st and 10, 1 yd

1st and 10, 4 yds

1st and 10. 4 yds

1st and 10, 3 yds

1st and 10, 0 yds

OT

1st and 10 4 yds called back by hold

1st and 20, 10 yds getting penalty yardage back

 

he was fine that day, as usual you are being unfair toward him.  Again, Curtis was one of the best RBs in football the majority of his career, Eli has never been one of the best QBs in football at any point of his career.

 

 

 

 

Oh, my! An "elite" player having to play well in spite of others around him who aren't? 

Amazing Adrian Peterson didn't use that excuse for basically his entire career.

Because what you're showing up top is just how much space he was given by the OL, not necessarily how much of something he made of nothing, like we see other non-alltime greats do weekly.

I agree he was one of the best RBs over the course of his career. But in individual seasons, there were always a good 5+ RBs who were more dangerous runners with the ball in hand, who took more than just what the OL (and according to you, the QB) allowed.

 

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On 1/16/2018 at 7:45 AM, nyjunc said:

Joe Namath does not deserve to be in based on his overall career, he does deserve it for what he meant to the game and he is in the Hall for that.  He helped turn the game into what it has become as far as our most popular sport.  Eli has done nothing like that.  he was a mediocre QB that played well in 2 playoff runs that were led by his D.

Eli didn't beat Tom Brady, the Giants DEFENSE beat Tom Brady.  Eli led his O's to 14 & 17 points in those 2 SBs. 

the streak is the only hall worthy part of his career but you don't get a medal just for showing up.

Namath is in for his guarantee and what that meant for the game but I'd argue for this era that's Eli's play with Tyree and beating the juggernaut that was the Patriots that year is far more famous. If you are considering "Fame" as the key word in Hall of Fame I'm not sure how you can exclude that.

I did not claim Eli is some great QB, my only point was that Namath does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame and Eli is clearly a better QB. I have no problem with him getting in the Hall of Fame even though I don't feel that he deserved it, much like Namath.

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Oh, my! An "elite" player having to play well in spite of others around him who aren't? 

Amazing Adrian Peterson didn't use that excuse for basically his entire career.

Because what you're showing up top is just how much space he was given by the OL, not necessarily how much of something he made of nothing, like we see other non-alltime greats do weekly.

I agree he was one of the best RBs over the course of his career. But in individual seasons, there were always a good 5+ RBs who were more dangerous runners with the ball in hand, who took more than just what the OL (and according to you, the QB) allowed.

 

he was a 1st team all pro multiple times, a 2nd team all pro multiple times so that's 4 seasons in the top 2.  Eli has NEVER made any all pro team.  That's all that needs to be said, Curtis was not the best of his generation but he was always one of the best.  Eli has never been one of the best.  Now please let's get back to discussing the sham that would be Eli making the HOF.

2 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Namath is in for his guarantee and what that meant for the game but I'd argue for this era that's Eli's play with Tyree and beating the juggernaut that was the Patriots that year is far more famous. If you are considering "Fame" as the key word in Hall of Fame I'm not sure how you can exclude that.

I did not claim Eli is some great QB, my only point was that Namath does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame and Eli is clearly a better QB. I have no problem with him getting in the Hall of Fame even though I don't feel that he deserved it, much like Namath.

Uh....No.  The Tyree play was great and lucky but it wasn't what SB III was.  No one on the NFL side took the AFL seriously, the merger was already in place but this legitimized it and was the starting point of football becoming America's favorite sport.  Namath was a legit superstar QB at the time, he made people watch football.  No one gives a crap about watching Eli.  Namath was actually great but his career was ruined by injuries, Eli has never been great and there is absolutely no comparison of the significance of SB III w/ SB XLII. Namath belongs in for what he meant to the game, Eli means nothing to this game.  he did not help it grow the way Namath did.  Eli deserves a nice spot in the giants ring of honor/hall of fame.  he doesn't deserve to be in the Pro Football Hall of fame unless he has a ticket to see his brother's bust.

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I get the argument that Martin was not an elite HOF back. He wasn't in the company of Jim Brown, Peyton, Simpson, Sanders, Dickerson. But he was one of those fixtures at RB for so many years, producing over a thousand yards year and year out, with a few outstanding seasons to bump his case. The big gripe of Jets fans is his playoff performance as a Jet, which is a legitimate gripe. Overall, however, when including his performance with the Pats, he was actually a decent performer in the playoffs compared to other HOF backs. the other interesting stat re Martin. He rarely broke big runs to compensate for the one yard or two yard stuff, or runs for losses. He was extraordinarily steady as runner, just not a game breaker type guy. He's sort of a Cal Ripken type, but that has its place too. He certainly was as good as Franco Harris or Jerome Bettis, or  Ricky Watters.

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3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

he was a 1st team all pro multiple times, a 2nd team all pro multiple times so that's 4 seasons in the top 2.  Eli has NEVER made any all pro team.  That's all that needs to be said, Curtis was not the best of his generation but he was always one of the best.  Eli has never been one of the best.  Now please let's get back to discussing the sham that would be Eli making the HOF.

 

All that needs to be said? Lol that's the mantra of people who just want those in disagreement to stop talking because it's blasphemy to disagree with you. Who cares that he made some pro bowls in the fantasy football era; those are popularity contests mostly and you know it. Plus 2-3 times his election to those pro bowl teams was decidedly undeserved, and the allegedly-deserved ones were a painfully small percentage of his career (his Jets career in particular). Or is this where you tell me that when he had 3.5 ypc in 1998 and 3.6 ypc in 1996, with an above-average OL and a well above-average passing game - not to mention essentially a 6th OLman in Kyle Brady - that this was one of the best performers of the year? Lol.

If you really think most of the players/coaches watch intricate film on every player in the league, and don't rely upon stats and group think (especially when a player is a favorite of larger-than-life figures like Parcells), you're really kidding yourself. They don't, and he rode on the backs of his teammates' performances for years. 

I can root for a player because he's on the Jets and still be painfully aware of his shortcomings. It's no shock that a RB who gets 20 carries per game with the above-average supporting casts around him, would put up gobs of yards despite only having a very average/pedestrian ypc.

False idol. But hey, you're smitten so it's like saying bad things about a girl you like. 

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3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

All that needs to be said? Lol who cares; those are popularity contests mostly and you know it. Plus 2-3 times his election to those pro bowl teams was decidedly undeserved. Or is this where you tell me that when he had 3.5 ypc in 1998, with an above-average OL and a well above-average passing game - not to mention essentially a 6th OLman in Kyle Brady - that this was one of the best performers of the year? Lol.

If you really think most of the players/coaches watch intricate film on every player in the league, and don't rely upon stats and group think (especially when a player is a favorite of larger-than-life figures like Parcells), you're really kidding yourself. They don't, and he rode on the backs of his teammates' performances for years. 

I can root for a player because he's on the Jets and still be painfully aware of his shortcomings. It's no shock that a RB who gets 20 carries per game with the above-average supporting casts around him, would put up gobs of yards despite only having a very average/pedestrian ypc.

False idol. But hey, you're smitten so it's like saying bad things about a girl you like. 

I do agree. But are you saying manning didn’t get elected to a pro bowl because he “ wasn’t “popular ?  The name Manning is quite popular in football because of Archie and his much better brother. Eli as far as I know is also well liked and respected. The fans and writers love rooting for the not so good little brother in whatever sport lol. I don’t think Eli has ever been a top 5 qb. He barely was top 10 many years. So to me that is why he never was elected to a pro ball. They don’t carry many qbs.

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22 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

I do agree. But are you saying manning didn’t get elected to a pro bowl because he “ wasn’t “popular ?  The name Manning is quite popular in football because of Archie and his much better brother. Eli as far as I know is also well liked and respected. The fans and writers love rooting for the not so good little brother in whatever sport lol. I don’t think Eli has ever been a top 5 qb. He barely was top 10 many years. So to me that is why he never was elected to a pro ball. They don’t carry many qbs.

I wasn't talking about Manning at all.

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