Good news for the tank crowd

[Lupz27]

Listen I was all for getting the first pick overall this upcoming draft, want to see Petty play over McCown, but neither is happening so it's time to put the tank talk to rest, it's ruining the forum of late, like it, or not the Jets are not the worst team in the league, and from what I've seen the first 4 weeks they are far from it.

[Mogglez]

11 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

OK so here it goes. Go back to my posts. The only point I had was this. Bowles, the coaching staff is playing the best player. And that the Petty or Hack shouldn't be given the starting job until they earned it. How do I know McCown is the best player? Because he's starting. And because coaches want to win so they will start the best players. That's how I logically came up with that. 

Go back and look at the posts, that's all I"m trying to say. Everything else, the fake fan talk, the rooting, you're beef with who's starting, never said anything about that.

What numbers indicate the gap is .5%? That's opinion. If I proved your point because you agree with me than cool. 

I can't believe we're this many posts deep and you can't seem to grasp that your initial question, that asked me about what would have made the outcomes of these games different, what would I have felt was the better move, or what should have been different, are all related to these topics.

It's truly amazing.

[Mogglez]

1 minute ago, Lupz27 said:

Listen I was all for getting the first pick overall this upcoming draft, want to see Petty play over McCown, but neither is happening so it's time to put the tank talk to rest, it's ruining the forum of late, like it, or not the Jets are not the worst team in the league, and from what I've seen the first 4 weeks they are far from it.

When we hit the meat of our schedule, everyone is going to feel verrrrrrrryyyyy different about this team.  This isn't even the beginning of the storm.  This is the calm before.

[Lupz27]

Just now, Mogglez said:

When we hit the meat of our schedule, everyone is going to feel verrrrrrrryyyyy different about this team.  This isn't even the beginning of the storm.  This is the calm.

Browns, Chargers, Bills at home on a Thursday, and against Miami are all winnable games they probably won't win them all, but they probably win half, and another 2 they are not supposed to win IMO that's 4-6 wins minimum which will be nowhere near the top 4 worst records.

[RESNewYork]

5 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

I can't believe we're this many posts deep and you can't seem to grasp that your initial question, that asked me about what would have made the outcomes of these games different, what would I have felt was the better move, or what should have been different, are all related to these topics.

It's truly amazing.

I think you're lumping me with everyone else you're having convos with. 

[adb280z]

3 hours ago, flgreen said:

IMO at least, a lot of people that are being referred to as "the tank crowd" would feel a hell of a lot better about this team if Petty or Hack were residing over a 2-2 at this point.  I know I would

No matter what happens, there is really no gain unless one of the young QB's are doing it.

Exactly if this is Petty or Hack (lol) I'd see a lot more cause for optimism.  This is shaping up to be a 5-11ish type year and another player on defense in the 1st again.

[Jetsfan80]

Is the safety joke still funny? I see it on every page on every thread. We have 4 active safeties on the roster. 

We spent a 1st rounder on Calvin Pryor when we could have had Carr, and took 2 safeties this year in the 1st/2nd, missing out on DeShaun Watson.

No, it's not funny really. It's more sad than funny.

[Mogglez]

4 hours ago, RESNewYork said:

I think you're lumping me with everyone else you're having convos with. 

I think you're just struggling to understand that maybe some fans don't enjoy watching franchise QBs slip away because of stupid f*cking wins with washed up veteran QBs and you forgot what you said to initially start this conversation.

[RESNewYork]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

We spent a 1st rounder on Calvin Pryor when we could have had Carr, and took 2 safeties this year in the 1st/2nd, missing out on DeShaun Watson.

No, it's not funny really. It's more sad than funny.

 

Well the good thing is they're probably done drafting safety. 

[JustInFudge]

19 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And how has that worked out for us, exactly?

How many times do we need to be bad, yet finish outside of the top 5 pick range, then rinse and recycle, before you finally admit that this is a bad way for a franchise to go?

The last time we finished in Top 5 pick range, we got D'Brickashaw Ferguson, a franchise LT for a decade.  So there's definitely evidence to suggest that even a terrible franchise like us can stumble into a great player if we tank properly.  

How's what worked out?  Having a belief that has zero impact on that actual performance of the team?  Look, you and I can want and wish for tanks and top 5 picks because its sexy and thats "what we need" but it doesn't work that way.  Clearly.  These dudes are professionals.  Their career and lives depend on what they put on tape.  Nobody tanks and nobody losses for draft position.  So don't point that finger at me because I feel a certain way.  If my feeling yielded results, well, you'd be posting pictures of me and Rhianna in the 100,000 posts thread.

Besides, what you're saying is categorically inaccurate.  The Jets haven't needed a top 5 pick to find a franchise QB.  They've had numerous chances over the years to draft one and it wasn't in the top 5 and they passed or whiffed.   It happened this season, twice.  It's well documented I wanted Watson but Mahomes was there too.  Yes, it looks like he sucks but Paxton Lynch.  They prioritized Hack over Dak and Bryce Petty over Trevor Siemian.  Derek Carr.  Teddy Bridgewater, Russell Wilson, Jimmy G., Kurt C..the list goes on homey.  

So, the reality is, it's worked out fine for the Jets and while the "meaningless wins in Dec" crowd think they're right, the truth is; The Jets have had their shot almost every year drafting outside of the top 5 it just so happens the Jets are one of the worst drafting teams in all of sports. 

 

[RESNewYork]

5 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I think you're just struggling to understand that maybe some fans don't enjoy watching franchise QBs slip away because of stupid f*cking wins with washed up veteran QBs and you forgot what you said to initially start this conversation.

My initial was asking about Bowles. 

I'm not struggling to understand your point. It's expressed in every thread on here. 

[JustInFudge]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

We spent a 1st rounder on Calvin Pryor when we could have had Carr, and took 2 safeties this year in the 1st/2nd, missing out on DeShaun Watson.

No, it's not funny really. It's more sad than funny.

 

Exactly my point.

Mogglez hated Watson because somebody told him too and the only reason Watson has accounted for as many TD's as the Jets entire offense is because coaches don't have tape on him.  So, he's not going to feel your point here because he was loud about how Watson was a 4th round prospect getting over drafted in a bad QB year because he has flaws that people said and stuff. 

[Tinstar]

10 hours ago, Mogglez said:

One was on short term IR, the other was a full go in practice the first week of the season.  It's not remotely close to being the same type of situation.

Was it not Bowles who told us all that the reason Petty was inactive for the 1st game was because he didn't like the way he looked while practicing ?  The kid was hurt, and the next man up got the gig and is playing well enough to keep the job .  When Petty' get his chance, and he will, it will be up to him to stay on the field and do what McCown is doing presently or better forcing the Jets to make a decision .  

There's this little book that I try to live by, and inside it is a line that goes something like this . " For we know, all things work together for the good":  I will not finish the line because of the restrictions against certain policies . I will remove the word we, and instead install the word I because that is how I live . 

Bryce Petty will get another chance, just like I know Hack will, and that chance will determined the course of his Jet career .

[slats]

12 hours ago, Pac said:

You too?

This isn't advanced calculus. 

McCown is better and at leading a team and decision making than Petty therefore he starts.  Mystery solved.  You're welcome.

Petty is not and never will be the long term starter here.  He was given every chance along with Hack to win the job and failed.  Period.  Get over it.

If and when the Jets are eliminated from playoff contention we'll all get a chance to see what Brett Ratliff errrr Bryce Petty brings to the table.  My guess is it will look a lot like it did last year which was a whole lot of nothing.

I'm not nearly as certain that that is true as I am certain that McCown is not the long term starter here. What's more, Petty could prove to be a long term backup, or a viable bridge QB holding a place for a high pick next year, which McCown also isn't. And Petty wasn't given every opportunity that Hackenberg was given. Hack got two preseason starts and Petty got zero. Maybe if he'd gotten a start he'd've won the job. Or not. But he wasn't given an equal opportunity. 

And yeah, getting a couple wins is nice, but the team is spinning its wheels with McCown at QB. As previously stated, 2-2 with Petty or Hack under center would be exciting, and 0-4 with either of them would at least have the team on the road to their replacement. This is nowhere land right here. They need to move on from McCown sooner rather than later. 

[Beerfish]

19 hours ago, RESNewYork said:

You feel Bowles and some of his staff is lousy but who do you consider a super bowl winning coach? Personally feel he's doing a good job at the quarter mark

Bowles has merely been okay this year and not as horrible as before.  He still has some issues such as the end of the game clock management last game.  I'd heap more praise on Morton than Bowles.  At least the defense has been pretty good the last two games after looking stinko the 1st two games.  He'll be here next year almost guaranteed but that is not a good thing in my mind.

[bostonmajet]

13 hours ago, Pac said:

Bryce Petty completed 56% of his passes and had 3 TDs to 7 INT's last year.  His claim to fame is a decent game against 3rd stringers in a pre-season game.

The lunatic fringe on this site clicking their heels and repeating he should be the starter isn't going to transform him into Bart Starr. 

Not sure what else the Jets have to do to show what their opinion of him is.  Maybe he can be a long term backup.  Maybe.

Draft or sign next years starter in FA.  If it's a draft pick resign McCown as the tutor/backup role, keep the Hack, dump or trade Petty.  If it's a FA then depending on who it is you decide if you're better off keeping Josh as a backup or going with a combination of Petty or Hack and a draft pick. 

This is what's going to happen.  I'm rarely wrong.

 

Then, next man up, Hack. We need to know (although maybe they already do) if these guys are any good. Although to be fair, a young kid can be excused for dumb mistakes, McCown can't.

[Mogglez]

7 hours ago, JiF said:

Exactly my point.

Mogglez hated Watson because somebody told him too and the only reason Watson has accounted for as many TD's as the Jets entire offense is because coaches don't have tape on him.  So, he's not going to feel your point here because he was loud about how Watson was a 4th round prospect getting over drafted in a bad QB year because he has flaws that people said and stuff. 

I never hated Watson you goober.  I just didn't think he was worth 6th overall. I've said that him and Trubisky were the only 2 QBs that I liked in the first and who actually stood a chance probably a hundred times.

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

More good news, I just bet $$ on the Jets to win with a few friends who are Browns fans here in Columbus - the fix is in

[De-Jet-Erate/Duane]

3 minutes ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

More good news, I just bet $$ on the Jets to win with a few friends who are Browns fans here in Columbus - the fix is in

I was in Buffalo week one and bet on the Jets, they didn't even cover

[jack48]

On 10/2/2017 at 10:47 AM, Jetsfan80 said:

 

All wins are bad in a tank season.  We're not catching up with the 0-4 Giants anytime soon.  

There's no such thing as a win-win.  Either you're in the "let's win 6 games and have some fun!" camp or you're in the "# 1 pick or bust" camp.

In no universe does getting the 6th pick mean good news for this franchise.  

The Giants will try to find out what they have in Geno Smith.  result: first pick in the draft.

[detectivekimble]

On October 2, 2017 at 11:10 AM, UnitedWhofans said:

Then why did they draft Kizer then, if they were going to draft one this year? That makes no sense. Thats literally throwing a draft pick away. At the very least Macc thought Hackenberg could be molded (so far he's wrong). Why did Cleveland draft him?

Really?  Teams don't pass on Cam Newton because they drafted Jimmy Clausen the year before.  Second round QBs are guys you hope become good, but you don't go all in on them.  If they pan out, great.  If they don't, you tried.

[Xtina]

Anything more than 4 wins and we are out of the QB sweepstakes. Realistically no more than 3 to play. The way it's shaping up they will probably go 5-11 

[detectivekimble]

On October 2, 2017 at 11:56 AM, JiF said:

I attempted to create an operating system but failed to do so because Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Ken Thompson beat me too it.

Cross my heart! 

Mac went in hard for Goff and targeted Mariota.  He certainly seems to be able to identify the good QBs.

[CrazyCarl40]

8 hours ago, detectivekimble said:

Mac went in hard for Goff and targeted Mariota.  He certainly seems to be able to identify the good QBs.

Macc thought the number one QBs in their draft class might be good? You don’t say. If he’s able to identify good QBs, why did he take a 5th round QB in the 2nd?

[Gastineau Lives]

On 10/3/2017 at 8:48 AM, JiF said:

How's what worked out?  Having a belief that has zero impact on that actual performance of the team?  Look, you and I can want and wish for tanks and top 5 picks because its sexy and thats "what we need" but it doesn't work that way.  Clearly.  These dudes are professionals.  Their career and lives depend on what they put on tape.  Nobody tanks and nobody losses for draft position.  So don't point that finger at me because I feel a certain way.  If my feeling yielded results, well, you'd be posting pictures of me and Rhianna in the 100,000 posts thread.

Besides, what you're saying is categorically inaccurate.  The Jets haven't needed a top 5 pick to find a franchise QB.  They've had numerous chances over the years to draft one and it wasn't in the top 5 and they passed or whiffed.   It happened this season, twice.  It's well documented I wanted Watson but Mahomes was there too.  Yes, it looks like he sucks but Paxton Lynch.  They prioritized Hack over Dak and Bryce Petty over Trevor Siemian.  Derek Carr.  Teddy Bridgewater, Russell Wilson, Jimmy G., Kurt C..the list goes on homey.  

So, the reality is, it's worked out fine for the Jets and while the "meaningless wins in Dec" crowd think they're right, the truth is; The Jets have had their shot almost every year drafting outside of the top 5 it just so happens the Jets are one of the worst drafting teams in all of sports. 

 

Yeah, well that's why the pro-loss (tank is kind of a misnomer) feels the way it does. We would like the Jets to have as good a shot as possible to get a very good QB. One with, in theory,  a much lower rate of ******* up than any other options. We don't want to see another of our illustrious GM's scratching his goddamn chin over a muddy, middling pick. We want the choice to be as clear as possible. One that stares Mac right in the face. Not saying that guarantees it will be successful, or that Rosen or Darnold will be Andrew Luck, but it's better than putting faith in one of these dudes (in this case, Mac) to make the exact RIGHT choice with one of the OTHER choices. We'd rather roll with that scenario, sorry if that seems dumb.

[Gastineau Lives]

47 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Macc thought the number one QBs in their draft class might be good? You don’t say. If he’s able to identify good QBs, why did he take a 5th round QB in the 2nd?

Boingo

[Gastineau Lives]

9 hours ago, Xtina said:

Anything more than 4 wins and we are out of the QB sweepstakes. Realistically no more than 3 to play. The way it's shaping up they will probably go 5-11 

If it makes you feel better, we're losing to Cleveland on Sunday. Totally fluky scenario, I know, but you have to understand, our team of superstars will just have an off week.

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Yeah, well that's why the pro-loss (tank is kind of a misnomer) feels the way it does. We would like the Jets to have as good a shot as possible to get a very good QB. One with, in theory,  a much lower rate of ******* up than any other options. We don't want to see another of our illustrious GM's scratching his goddamn chin over a muddy, middling pick. We want the choice to be as clear as possible. One that stares Mac right in the face. Not saying that guarantees it will be successful, or that Rosen or Darnold will be Andrew Luck, but it's better than putting faith in one of these dudes (in this case, Mac) to make the exact RIGHT choice with one of the OTHER choices. We'd rather roll with that scenario, sorry if that seems dumb.

Like drafting Deshaun Watson at 6 when he was staring you in the face?  From where I’m standing that choice was as clear as possible and a much safer pick then the greatest QB class ever in 2018!!!!

[Gastineau Lives]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

Like drafting Deshaun Watson at 6 when he was staring you in the face?  From where I’m standing that choice was as clear as possible and a much safer pick then the greatest QB class ever in 2018!!!!

Let's not go anointing him just yet, but I also wanted him before the draft. If we're sitting there at six again, is he  going with Baker Mayfield or Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson? It's too early to say, I know, but if he does, do you feel good about it?

[detectivekimble]

On October 6, 2017 at 5:28 AM, CrazyCarl40 said:

Macc thought the number one QBs in their draft class might be good? You don’t say. If he’s able to identify good QBs, why did he take a 5th round QB in the 2nd?

You're missing the point.  There's a difference between being the #1 QB in a draft class and being a franchise QB.  EJ Manuel/Geno Smith were the top QBs in their class.  If you targeted either one of them, you'd be on the unemployment line.  Trubisky was the #1 guy in his class and Goff or Wentz were the best in their class.  Mac went after Goff HARD, but didn't do the same with Trubisky or Wentz.  It's not as simple as going after the #1 guy in the class.  You have to take it one step further and ask if that guy can be the franchise.  The fact that Mac thought that was the case with Goff and not with Trubisky or Wentz tells me he knows what he's doing.  Goff looks the part.  We'll see with the other two.

[Adoni Beast]

On 10/6/2017 at 5:28 AM, CrazyCarl40 said:

Macc thought the number one QBs in their draft class might be good? You don’t say. If he’s able to identify good QBs, why did he take a 5th round QB in the 2nd?

Also tried to trade for Cousins after Geno got IK'd. This was before Cousins was even a viable starter.

[CrazyCarl40]

5 hours ago, detectivekimble said:

You're missing the point.  There's a difference between being the #1 QB in a draft class and being a franchise QB.  EJ Manuel/Geno Smith were the top QBs in their class.  If you targeted either one of them, you'd be on the unemployment line.  Trubisky was the #1 guy in his class and Goff or Wentz were the best in their class.  Mac went after Goff HARD, but didn't do the same with Trubisky or Wentz.  It's not as simple as going after the #1 guy in the class.  You have to take it one step further and ask if that guy can be the franchise.  The fact that Mac thought that was the case with Goff and not with Trubisky or Wentz tells me he knows what he's doing.  Goff looks the part.  We'll see with the other two.

 

1 hour ago, Adoni Beast said:

Also tried to trade for Cousins after Geno got IK'd. This was before Cousins was even a viable starter.

Went hard after and tried. Both means failed to do so. 

[rangerous]

13 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

 

Went hard after and tried. Both means failed to do so. 

not for nothing, but it takes two to tango.  in order to get goff mac would've had to throw in draft picks or players or both.  the asking price was too high.  same thing with cousins.  in both cases the teams with the leverage didn't like the deal.  now you can say he failed but at the same time, considering how many players the jets need, he didn't bankrupt the team in other ways.

[CrazyCarl40]

4 hours ago, rangerous said:

not for nothing, but it takes two to tango.  in order to get goff mac would've had to throw in draft picks or players or both.  the asking price was too high.  same thing with cousins.  in both cases the teams with the leverage didn't like the deal.  now you can say he failed but at the same time, considering how many players the jets need, he didn't bankrupt the team in other ways.

If you believe that there is a franchise altering quarterback to be had to run the ship for the next 10-15 years, there isn’t a price too high, just balls too small. 

[detectivekimble]

3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

If you believe that there is a franchise altering quarterback to be had to run the ship for the next 10-15 years, there isn’t a price too high, just balls too small. 

Not true.  It absolutely takes two to tango.  Tennessee was not parting with that #2 pick.  They were sold on Mariota.  Mac offered at least #6 and Wilkerson and at least one other team offered more.  2017 was different, but I guess he couldn't top the Rams offer.  The point still remains, the only two QBs who he's tried trading up for are Mariota and Goff, which shows that he has some ability to identify a franchise QB.