Thought Experiement: What Was vs. What Could Have Been?

[Warfish]

So I have a question to pose:

Would the NY Jets Franchise have been better off if we had stuck to Mark Sanchez in 2013->2016 instead of what we did (Geno, Fitz, McCown).

I was one of Sanchez's greatest critics, I never believed he was developing as a 1st round QB should.

But given what we've had since he got hurt (also a woulda, coulda, shoulda issue in and of itself!), were we really better off as a franchise letting him go?

Would Mark Sanchez have been worse than Geno Smith in 2013, when Geno has 12 TD's to a billion INT's and Fumbles?

Would Sanchez have been worse than Geno in Geno year #2 (when Geno was the best he was with us)?

Would Sanchez have been worse than Fitz in 2015?  Maybe, maybe not, that year was about the talent around Fitz, not Fitz himself.

It's a valid question, one that challenges my OWN beliefs in what should have been done in that time/moment.

I think it's valid to consider if we, as a franchise, might have been better off with stability at the QB position all these years, developing Geno Smith (and Hackenberg too) behind a consistent, if not spectacular, veteran QB WE drafted in the first round.

What say you?

[Integrity28]

Hypotheticals!

[The Crusher]

This thread is useless without @SAR I

[The Crusher]

I say no better no worse just different. 

[ChuckkieB]

Sanchez regressed every season he was starting, Geno was bad, Fitz was bad but disguised himself as good for one season, and Petty and Hack apparently are bad because McCown is currently our QB.  In a nutshell, the Jets haven't had many good options at QB for a while. 

[Pennington]

Sanchez was doomed from the start being coached by Rex and Schottenheimer. If he had good coaches he would have had a chance at being successful.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

If a thread refers to itself as a 'thought experiment,' there is a 99% chance it is about feelings. If a thread refers to itself as a 'thought experiment' and has colons in the title and first line, there is a 130% chance it is about butt feelings.

[HighPitch]

I would say that you cant blame them for trying geno. 

Its not like sanchez is flourishing elsewhere

[nyjunc]

our problems are bigger than any one player.  It started w/ the firing of Tannenbaum which led to Geno, led to Mark getting hurt, led to mark getting let go, led to Fitz eventually.  If we developed Mark, if we surrounded him w/ talent he'd be a good QB today but we had some cap issues that forced our hands and we made the mistake of not upgrading around him and expecting him to get better when his top targets were Chaz Schilens and Stephen Hill.  his first 2 years he proved he could play w/ good, not great, talent but post 2010 we never had O's as talented as 2010.  If he was our QB in 2015 there's no doubt we go on a deep run in the playoffs but that was never going to happen the moment we fired Tannenbaum and brought in idzik.

[The Crimson King]

Much of the issues with recent Jets QB's is the lack of talent and/or overrated talent around them

 

[MDL_JET]

Negative. Keep Sanchez would have done nothing but frustrate the hell out of fans. 

[JustInFudge]

The myth that Sanchez wasn't brought into a good situation or wasn't developed is one of the most amazing myths this world has ever known.

There is no better situation for a rookie QB than to be drafted to a team with the best OL, best running game and best defense in the league.  It's literally ideal.  He didn't have nothing.  He had a very good possession receiver, a 1st round TE and they went and got him weapons on the outside (granted not exactly sane ones) and then continued to add more talent by getting one of the greatest RB's to ever play the game.  They brought in a mentor in Brunell and even went out to find offensive guru Tom Moore as a consultant.  

Sanchez sucked all on his own.  He's literally 3rd string on a team who has no Qb and hasn't had a probowl QB since 1985...and that guy sucked and got in on his rep. 

[nyjunc]

6 minutes ago, JiF said:

The myth that Sanchez wasn't brought into a good situation or wasn't developed is one of the most amazing myths this world has ever known.

There is no better situation for a rookie QB than to be drafted to a team with the best OL, best running game and best defense in the league.  It's literally ideal.  He didn't have nothing.  He had a very good possession receiver, a 1st round TE and they went and got him weapons on the outside (granted not exactly sane ones) and then continued to add more talent by getting one of the greatest RB's to ever play the game.  They brought in a mentor in Brunell and even went out to find offensive guru Tom Moore as a consultant.  

Sanchez sucked all on his own.  He's literally 3rd string on a team who has no Qb and hasn't had a probowl QB since 1985...and that guy sucked and got in on his rep. 

the myth is that we had the best Ol, best run game.  the Ol was very good, it wasn't the best.  The run game had some great games that skewed #s, it was good not great.  he went into that season w/ Chansi Stuckey as a starting WR and was 3-1 w/ him.

we then got Braylon, a struggling WR, from Cle after week 4.  Braylon couldn't catch anything that year.  In 2010 Braylon was great but in 2009 he was not.  In 2010 we were loaded w/ a top 10 talented team on O BUT after a month LT did nothing the rest of the reg season, Holmes missed 4 games, Cotch missed games and was playing hurt, Braylon had his DUI, etc...  we had everything rolling w/ those guys when they were healthy but how many games was that? after 2010 we didn't re-sign Braylon, we let Cotch go and what did we have? and yet Mark still set a record for total TDs that next season.  it wasn't until Schilens and Hill were his top targets did he suck.

Jet fans are the worst, we'll praise Brett favre and Bash Mark Sanchez and Chad Pennington. 

[jason423]

Thats an interesting question. I think I would lean towards no only because he wasnt going to get any better unless he had a new coach and Rex was still going to be here. Even with a new coach Im not sure how it would have gone. He actually did ok in Philly his first year but was worse when he got a second shot. He struggled with any pressure. When he got a game last year he was really really bad. None of that would have flown here and I dont think he would have responded well to the criticism and it could have gotten ugly. Now if he had thicker skin?  Yeah he would have ended the QB carousel for a few years and maybe the developmental process would have worked out better. I also think if there was more front office continuity they may have switched course and tried to improve the offense even with Rex around. That would not have magically fixed Sanchez but it would have helped the offense find some talent the last few years.  

[jason423]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

the myth is that we had the best Ol, best run game.  the Ol was very good, it wasn't the best.  The run game had some great games that skewed #s, it was good not great.  he went into that season w/ Chansi Stuckey as a starting WR and was 3-1 w/ him.

we then got Braylon, a struggling WR, from Cle after week 4.  Braylon couldn't catch anything that year.  In 2010 Braylon was great but in 2009 he was not.  In 2010 we were loaded w/ a top 10 talented team on O BUT after a month LT did nothing the rest of the reg season, Holmes missed 4 games, Cotch missed games and was playing hurt, Braylon had his DUI, etc...  we had everything rolling w/ those guys when they were healthy but how many games was that? after 2010 we didn't re-sign Braylon, we let Cotch go and what did we have? and yet Mark still set a record for total TDs that next season.  it wasn't until Schilens and Hill were his top targets did he suck.

Jet fans are the worst, we'll praise Brett favre and Bash Mark Sanchez and Chad Pennington. 

2011 was pretty much the beginning of the end for him and where it was clear he didnt have the personality to be the QB. Losing Edwards I think was a big blow to him because Edwards kind of protected him or at least it seemed that way. Holmes and Burress dominated that huddle in 2011 and that had to be a killer for Sanchez who just isnt equipped to handle the big ego players. On top of that the defense started to get old and the team faced more and more criticism most of which was directed at him. The Jets further messed things up with the Tebow move the next year to make a splash. Still I dont think there was any hope that he was ever going to be good but if he had thicker skin and/or the Jets had a better locker room around him they may have gotten a few more 8-8 kind of years with him. 

[DMan77]

My feeling is Sanchez played behind some of our best OL's ever and was still mediocre at best... And really, less than that.

I think he'd get absolutely embarrassed playing behind the kind of line we had the last 2-3 years... I mean, not that the other guys didn't but... I just don't think he had the poise to last out there.

Then again who knows, right? Maybe we'd find he was one of those QBs that's at his best when he just has to act and not overthink. 

[whodeawhodat]

[kelly]

" Would the Jets Franchise Have Been better Off Staying With Mark Sanchez? "..

 

[shawn306]

You can't teach leadership. When Holmes blew up in that final game in Miami in 2011 Sanchez was done.

[UntouchableCrew]

Despite what a handful of posters will tell you, Mark Sanchez was never a good QB at the NFL level. The team won despite him when they were good in 09-10 and often lost because of him when they lost in 11-12. There was absolutely no reason to stick with him at QB. It's not even really accurate to pretend he was ever much better than the guys who came after him; his best season with the Jets doesn't sniff Fitz's 2015 season for instance, and Fitz is a pariah around here.

At QB it's always better to hunt for "the guy" and after four years I don't think any sane person would still argue that Sanchez was that. So even if Geno and Hackenberg (our two efforts at drafting a franchise QB) flopped, I think it was worth the effort to try and nab one. Will be until we finally do, too.

[Gastineau Lives]

Not sure why we are talking about this. We can't change history by talking about Mark Sanchez. 

[HessStation]

50 minutes ago, JiF said:

The myth that Sanchez wasn't brought into a good situation or wasn't developed is one of the most amazing myths this world has ever known.

There is no better situation for a rookie QB than to be drafted to a team with the best OL, best running game and best defense in the league.  It's literally ideal.  He didn't have nothing.  He had a very good possession receiver, a 1st round TE and they went and got him weapons on the outside (granted not exactly sane ones) and then continued to add more talent by getting one of the greatest RB's to ever play the game.  They brought in a mentor in Brunell and even went out to find offensive guru Tom Moore as a consultant.  

Sanchez sucked all on his own.  He's literally 3rd string on a team who has no Qb and hasn't had a probowl QB since 1985...and that guy sucked and got in on his rep. 

Wow, this pretty much nails it. 

[JustInFudge]

35 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

the myth is that we had the best Ol, best run game.  the Ol was very good, it wasn't the best.  The run game had some great games that skewed #s, it was good not great.  he went into that season w/ Chansi Stuckey as a starting WR and was 3-1 w/ him.

we then got Braylon, a struggling WR, from Cle after week 4.  Braylon couldn't catch anything that year.  In 2010 Braylon was great but in 2009 he was not.  In 2010 we were loaded w/ a top 10 talented team on O BUT after a month LT did nothing the rest of the reg season, Holmes missed 4 games, Cotch missed games and was playing hurt, Braylon had his DUI, etc...  we had everything rolling w/ those guys when they were healthy but how many games was that? after 2010 we didn't re-sign Braylon, we let Cotch go and what did we have? and yet Mark still set a record for total TDs that next season.  it wasn't until Schilens and Hill were his top targets did he suck.

Jet fans are the worst, we'll praise Brett favre and Bash Mark Sanchez and Chad Pennington. 

Every single justifiable fact known to man supports my postion while you will retort with conjecture and emotion.  Therefore, I will no longer respond to this topic and just say thank you for your response.  

[sourceworx]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

The myth that Sanchez wasn't brought into a good situation or wasn't developed is one of the most amazing myths this world has ever known.

There is no better situation for a rookie QB than to be drafted to a team with the best OL, best running game and best defense in the league.  It's literally ideal.  He didn't have nothing.  He had a very good possession receiver, a 1st round TE and they went and got him weapons on the outside (granted not exactly sane ones) and then continued to add more talent by getting one of the greatest RB's to ever play the game.  They brought in a mentor in Brunell and even went out to find offensive guru Tom Moore as a consultant.  

Sanchez sucked all on his own.  He's literally 3rd string on a team who has no Qb and hasn't had a probowl QB since 1985...and that guy sucked and got in on his rep. 

This post should be pasted at the top of any Sanchez thread.

The situation he came into when we drafted him was about as good as a young QB could ask for. Great O-Line, great RBs, great defense, and strong veteran leadership. He got by for two years because of that. Obviously the Jets couldn't maintain that surrounding talent level forever because of the cap and guys getting old (drafting like sh!t didn't exactly help either), and they hoped their third year QB was ready to carry the team for a couple of lean years. Sanchez simply wasn't good enough to do it.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

Every single justifiable fact known to man supports my postion while you will retort with conjecture and emotion.  Therefore, I will no longer respond to this topic and just say thank you for your response.  

that's b/c you look at blind stats w/o context that tell you how great we ran the ball. I watched the games and understood what I was watching.  you see a great stat line and think we dominated on the ground, you need to dig deeper.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, shawn306 said:

You can't teach leadership. When Holmes blew up in that final game in Miami in 2011 Sanchez was done.

yeah b/c no QBs have ever had players have issue before.  I guess Eli sucks since he can't control Beckham, right? 

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Despite what a handful of posters will tell you, Mark Sanchez was never a good QB at the NFL level. The team won despite him when they were good in 09-10 and often lost because of him when they lost in 11-12. There was absolutely no reason to stick with him at QB. It's not even really accurate to pretend he was ever much better than the guys who came after him; his best season with the Jets doesn't sniff Fitz's 2015 season for instance, and Fitz is a pariah around here.

At QB it's always better to hunt for "the guy" and after four years I don't think any sane person would still argue that Sanchez was that. So even if Geno and Hackenberg (our two efforts at drafting a franchise QB) flopped, I think it was worth the effort to try and nab one. Will be until we finally do, too.

you don't win 4 road playoff games w/o decent QB play.

please show me the games they lost in those 2 years directly b/c of him? it's a very short list.

Fitz's 2015 was a great #s season, he left wins on the table and couldn't get us to the playoffs despite having more talent around him than Mark ever had and an incredibly weak schedule. mark never lost a win and in game which Fitz had against an inferior team that was eliminated from playoff contention.

[56mehl56]

It wasn't Sanchez or Geno that was the issue. It was letting your dominant Oline become an average one , and thus providing neither young QB with the protection or running game that could have helped them tremendously.  This is why I'm less down on McCown playing for now, the Oline is developing, if they stabilize then it will be a better transition to Petty or Hack.

[LIJetsFan]

I voted yes but it's a provisional yes.  Tanny gave him that insane extension so that sealed his fate.  He had to go.  However, for a reasonable price I'd have kept him as our starter until someone beat him out of the job.  So that also included Rex not playing him with a 3rd string OL preseason.  (Loved Rex but he was such an ass).     

[UntouchableCrew]

Just now, nyjunc said:

yeah b/c no QBs have ever had players have issue before.  I guess Eli sucks since he can't control Beckham, right? 

you don't win 4 road playoff games w/o decent QB play.

please show me the games they lost in those 2 years directly b/c of him? it's a very short list.

Fitz's 2015 was a great #s season, he left wins on the table and couldn't get us to the playoffs despite having more talent around him than Mark ever had and an incredibly weak schedule. mark never lost a win and in game which Fitz had against an inferior team that was eliminated from playoff contention.

You're living in a fantasy land, buddy. He sucked horribly in two of those four playoff wins. The team literally had an anchor around their legs trying to drag him to the victory. Go back and watch that Chargers game. He couldn't get a first down -- he finished with 100 yards passing.

Games he directly cost them wins? How about that Bills game where we rushed for 300 yards but he threw 5 interceptions? How about when the Jets defense held the eventual super bowl champions to 10 points but we lost because Sanchez got shut out?

The guy had 69 interceptions and 17 fumbles in four years. Never came close to 60% completion in four years. 

Never lost a "win and in" game? Uh, do you remember the last three games of the 2011 season when he completed imploded and failed to score 20 points in three straight games including a Christmas Eve disaster against the Giants and that turd against Miami?

It's not "Jets fans are the worst because they think Mark Sanchez sucks." It's "everyone knows Mark Sanchez sucks except a handful of delusional Jets fans."

I think Sanchez is a good guy and I hate to pile on him but I can't stand this "he was good and the Jets screwed up with him" nonsense. That was a Super Bowl caliber team -- he couldn't have been set up better to succeed. With a real QB we win a title in 2009-10 and I don't see how anyone doesn't see that.

 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

It wasn't Sanchez or Geno that was the issue. It was letting your dominant Oline become an average one , and thus providing neither young QB with the protection or running game that could have helped them tremendously.  This is why I'm less down on McCown playing for now, the Oline is developing, if they stabilize then it will be a better transition to Petty or Hack.

I agree partially, they did let the OL deteriorate but they let all the talent around the QB deteriorate as well.  as far as the run games:

2009 Thomas Jones was our workhorse, he averaged 4.2 YPC.

2010 combo of LT/Greene: they averaged less than 4.2 YPC

 

2013 w/ Geno: Ivory/Powell split and averaged just under 4.3 YPC

2015 w/ Fitz: Ivory was workhorse and averaged 4.3 YPC

2008 w/ Favre: Jones was workhorse and averaged 4.5 YPC(w/ same OL Mark had in 2009)

 

[August]

I don't think they could've stuck with him for the long term. Maybe if he hadn't gotten hurt in '13 and he played decent they could've held on to him for a year or two longer but he wasn't the long term future. He hadn't developed much in the 4 years he was the starter. Granted the front office did him no favors either. 

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

You're living in a fantasy land, buddy. He sucked horribly in two of those four playoff wins. The team literally had an anchor around their legs trying to drag him to the victory. Go back and watch that Chargers game. He couldn't get a first down -- he finished with 100 yards passing.

Games he directly cost them wins? How about that Bills game where we rushed for 300 yards but he threw 5 interceptions? How about when the Jets defense held the eventual super bowl champions to 10 points but we lost because Sanchez got shut out?

The guy had 69 interceptions and 17 fumbles in four years. Never came close to 60% completion in four years. 

Never lost a "win and in" game? Uh, do you remember the last three games of the 2011 season when he completed imploded and failed to score 20 points in three straight games including a Christmas Eve disaster against the Giants and that turd against Miami?

It's not "Jets fans are the worst because they think Mark Sanchez sucks." It's "everyone knows Mark Sanchez sucks except a handful of delusional Jets fans."

I think Sanchez is a good guy and I hate to pile on him but I can't stand this "he was good and the Jets screwed up with him" nonsense. That was a Super Bowl caliber team -- he couldn't have been set up better to succeed. With a real QB we win a title in 2009-10 and I don't see how anyone doesn't see that.

 

He was good in the SD game. again, you are a fan that looks at blind #s w/o context.  he made about 3 huge plays in that game to help us win and did more for his team than the other QB who handed us the game.  he had similar yardage #s as Rivers prior to going up 10.  we didn't throw again while Rivers threw every play- would you have preferred he threw a game changing INt like nRivers then had to throw every play in the 4th?  this position isn't all about blind #s.

he definitely cost us the Bills game- that's 1.

the GB game? he was part of the problem but that was a weather game, neither O did much and GB scored 6 of their 9 pts off of bogus INTs.

never had a win and in game in 2011 but yes I do remember those last 3 games, do you?  at philly the D allowed 45 points. vs. NYG while leading late 1st half and NYG facing 3rd and 9 from their ONE where we would have got the ball back in FG range to end the half they hit a 99 yard TD which changed the game and season for both teams.  or week 17 at Miami where leading in the 3rd they allowed Matt Moore to lead Miami on a 21 play, 12 1/2 minute drive to give Miami the lead and break the backs of our team.  yes I do remember those games quite well, obviously you do not.

that Super Bowl caliber team had a Hall of Fame QB the year before Sanchez, faced a much weaker sched and didn't have Tom Brady around- where was the Super Bowl run?

[dbatesman]

As a serious thread, I give this an F, but as a giant net for catching the terminally stupid, I give it an A++

[JetsFanatic]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

He was good in the SD game. again, you are a fan that looks at blind #s w/o context.  he made about 3 huge plays in that game to help us win and did more for his team than the other QB who handed us the game.  he had similar yardage #s as Rivers prior to going up 10.  we didn't throw again while Rivers threw every play- would you have preferred he threw a game changing INt like nRivers then had to throw every play in the 4th?  this position isn't all about blind #s.

he definitely cost us the Bills game- that's 1.

the GB game? he was part of the problem but that was a weather game, neither O did much and GB scored 6 of their 9 pts off of bogus INTs.

never had a win and in game in 2011 but yes I do remember those last 3 games, do you?  at philly the D allowed 45 points. vs. NYG while leading late 1st half and NYG facing 3rd and 9 from their ONE where we would have got the ball back in FG range to end the half they hit a 99 yard TD which changed the game and season for both teams.  or week 17 at Miami where leading in the 3rd they allowed Matt Moore to lead Miami on a 21 play, 12 1/2 minute drive to give Miami the lead and break the backs of our team.  yes I do remember those games quite well, obviously you do not.

that Super Bowl caliber team had a Hall of Fame QB the year before Sanchez, faced a much weaker sched and didn't have Tom Brady around- where was the Super Bowl run?

I’m not arguing against Sanchez, but the GB game was not a weather game, it was a beautiful fall afternoon. I was there and remember it being nice.

[UntouchableCrew]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

He was good in the SD game. again, you are a fan that looks at blind #s w/o context.  he made about 3 huge plays in that game to help us win and did more for his team than the other QB who handed us the game.  he had similar yardage #s as Rivers prior to going up 10.  we didn't throw again while Rivers threw every play- would you have preferred he threw a game changing INt like nRivers then had to throw every play in the 4th?  this position isn't all about blind #s.

he definitely cost us the Bills game- that's 1.

the GB game? he was part of the problem but that was a weather game, neither O did much and GB scored 6 of their 9 pts off of bogus INTs.

never had a win and in game in 2011 but yes I do remember those last 3 games, do you?  at philly the D allowed 45 points. vs. NYG while leading late 1st half and NYG facing 3rd and 9 from their ONE where we would have got the ball back in FG range to end the half they hit a 99 yard TD which changed the game and season for both teams.  or week 17 at Miami where leading in the 3rd they allowed Matt Moore to lead Miami on a 21 play, 12 1/2 minute drive to give Miami the lead and break the backs of our team.  yes I do remember those games quite well, obviously you do not.

that Super Bowl caliber team had a Hall of Fame QB the year before Sanchez, faced a much weaker sched and didn't have Tom Brady around- where was the Super Bowl run?

Blind numbers? What are you talking about? We barely scored any points, man. Our defense played out of their mind and the other team missed 2 makeable field goals so we won a game in which our offense did NOTHING -- outside of Shonn Greene's big run that effectively sealed the game. Sanchez was dreadful by virtually any metric you can imagine. There is literally no argument in which you can say he played well. If he played well we win that game by 17 points.

The hoops you're jumping through to justify his crap play is literally astounding. I can't even argue with you because you clearly are just wrapped up in some intense bias and can't be reasoned with.

And as far as 2008 -- we were 8-3 before Favre got injured and obviously Rex taking the defense from mediocre to elite was the difference between the two 9-7 teams -- not the decline in QB production.