How does not starting Petty hurt the Jets?

[BrickTamland]

8 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

Let me ask you the same then because maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

What is the logical answer that Petty is not starting?

What would Petty have to do to avoid the Jets bringing in another QB next year?

Frankly I think the post I quoted was perfect and I don't feel like writing a bunch of paragraphs. The simple answer is that you find out it Petty or Hack is any good. As to why Petty isn't playing -- coaches are self interested and narrow minded and don't always think very far down the road.

[68JET11]

Bowles has proven in 3 years he won't start a rookie QB... He has no control over the offense so he seems scared to play one. He has no issues this year with playing the rooks on defense, but still has no balls to play them on offence. So the question should be why is he so dead set against it. I don't believe it has anything to do with who's better then the other because Petty did prove he had a much better grasp of the offense this preseason then he had last year, even with a new OC.

Benching McCown should have never come up as a question because he should never have started the season. Especially since it seems that the HC of the NYJ will keep his job (unfortunately)... Saying that isn't me hoping we can tank for the #1 pick either. When you dismantle the roster as we did this year, then getting the rooks as much playing time is the key to developing and seeing who has game.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, August said:

I'm playing Petty in order to evaluate and develop him. 

Fan Fallacy:  You can only be evaluated and developed by playing in real games.

Reality:  QB's are evaluated and developed without playing on Sunday.  They play every day, through minicamps, camp and preseason, and are evaluated every day, in practice.  Their position coaches and coordinators work to develop them every day in practice, albeit to a lesser degree than the #1.  With us, though, and our veteran and experienced (i.e. old as dirt) #1, it's logical to presume our staff doesn't need to work McCown much, and are in fact working more than normal with Petty and Hack.

We'll see Hack (almost assuredly Hack over Petty, and not because Hack has earned it) the second the Jets are out of contention this season.

I continue to believe Petty is on the outs with the staff, and not in the long term plan of the GM.  Hack, for good or bad, still is.

[nycdan]

37 minutes ago, jetgreen13 said:

it seems petty can do nothing in bowles' eyes to become the starter..

& yes, smith was given a real opportunity to be the long term answer here, also at the expense of petty, who outplayed him in training camp/preseason last year.. aside from trolling, i question how that can be rationally debated..

 

I think the Jets should stop drafting QBs below the 2nd round because they have shown under this regime that they simply don't value them no matter what the evidence might or might not be.  

[slats]

11 hours ago, RESNewYork said:

Bryce Petty is signed for the 2018 season. The Jets are going to sign a free agent QB or draft a prospect this off season. Petty will have a chance to compete in the off season. The coaching staff will have the whole off season to make an informed decision about him. 

Like i said in the original post, if he was a starting QB right now, he would be starting over McCown. Not playing Petty will not change anything this off-season for the Jets and does not jeopardize the future of the team.

Potentially, it does. They should evaluate him in real game action to determine where they believe he's at. Is he a quality back-up? A serviceable bridge to a rookie? Or is he useless? I don't expect him the be the answer at QB, but they need to know if they need to bring in another McCown type in addition to a rookie (if that's the route they choose to take), or if Petty (or Hack, for that matter) can fill that role.  

[nycdan]

2 hours ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

The OP is correct, there is no harm to the team if Petty and hack are not and never will be NFL QBs and the Jet actually draft a 1st round QB in 2018

Benefits to starting them;

1. could see progress with game experience that helps the team keep one or both as developmental players/backups - maybe the franchise?
2. other teams could see "something" and generate trade interest
3. get fans excited if they show flashes of good
4. better draft pick if they are bad

Risks to starting them;

1. could be just good enough to prevent Jets from drafting a QB high in the draft
2. prove they are not worth anything in trade and demotivate the rest of the team
3. motivate fans to fly banners (unknown backup QB is hope, bad backup QB is despair)

 

That's a very different thing.  The question is about gathering data.  Saying it's risky to gather data because you might use it unwisely is not a risk of gathering data, it's a risk of the Jets being too stupid to know what to do with it.  If that were the case (and it may well be) then you have to deal with that regardless of what you do with Petty this year.

[nycdan]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

Potentially, it does. They should evaluate him in real game action to determine where they believe he's at. Is he a quality back-up? A serviceable bridge to a rookie? Or is he useless? I don't expect him the be the answer at QB, but they need to know if they need to bring in another McCown type in addition to a rookie (if that's the route they choose to take), or if Petty (or Hack, for that matter) can fill that role.  

Boom goes the dynamite!  This is the single most important reason to play him soon.  Significant impact on next season.  I'll add to this the thought that Petty will be a much more valuable bridge next year if he gets playing time this year.  Otherwise, how can he even begin to help mentor a rookie?  He won't have anything remotely near McCown's experience, but the difference between starting 8 games this year vs. starting none is enormous.

[greenwave81]

Bowles has proven in 3 years he won't start a rookie QB... He has no control over the offense so he seems scared to play one. He has no issues this year with playing the rooks on defense, but still has no balls to play them on offence. So the question should be why is he so dead set against it. I don't believe it has anything to do with who's better then the other because Petty did prove he had a much better grasp of the offense this preseason then he had last year, even with a new OC.
Benching McCown should have never come up as a question because he should never have started the season. Especially since it seems that the HC of the NYJ will keep his job (unfortunately)... Saying that isn't me hoping we can tank for the #1 pick either. When you dismantle the roster as we did this year, then getting the rooks as much playing time is the key to developing and seeing who has game.

Exactly.

On D, we get rid of older vets and play rooks...and they seem to be developing. On O, we can Fitz, Marshall and Decker and replace them with McCown, Kerley and Kearse...oh, and continue to start another older limited player in Forte. What was the point?

[nycdan]

1 minute ago, greenwave81 said:

Exactly.

On D, we get rid of older vets and play rooks...and they seem to be developing. On O, we can Fitz, Marshall and Decker and replace them with McCown, Kerley and Kearse...oh, and continue to start another older limited player in Forte. What was the point?

Is see this a lot.  I agree with what you are saying except I would not include Kearse in the category of old vets.  He's 27 and absolutely could be a significant part of the rebuild for the next 5 years or more.

[Warfish]

13 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Boom goes the dynamite!  This is the single most important reason to play him soon.  Significant impact on next season.  I'll add to this the thought that Petty will be a much more valuable bridge next year if he gets playing time this year.  Otherwise, how can he even begin to help mentor a rookie?  He won't have anything remotely near McCown's experience, but the difference between starting 8 games this year vs. starting none is enormous.

The odds that the Jets will field Rookie + Petty + Hack next year is near zero, and we all know it.

The Jets WILL have a Veteran QB on the roster next year, like it or not.  It could be McCown, it could be some other vat castoff.  But be assured, it will not be Petty.

The only questions for the Jets at QB is:

A. Which rookie QB do we draft?

B. which Veteran do we sign?

C. Which (between Hack and Petty) do we retain?

 Macc and Bowles have shown they are 100% unwilling to go risky at QB.  

And Petty appears, today, to be the odd man out.

[Beerfish]

There is no harm at all in not starting Petty as long as the following happens.

Next year both Petty and Hack are cut in the off season because if they are not good enough to even be contemplated at this point in time then the team has decided they have no future and if you have no future quit taking up a roster spot.

If the Jets go into camp next year and both hack and petty are still here and the jets have another draft pick and of course we 'must' have a vet mentor then there is a lot of harm in not playing petty or hackenburg.

[peebag]

13 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Carl no wait Crazy Carl the NFL is wide open, on any given Sunday anything can happen haven't we seen more than a fair share of superstar injuries this season. its early Crazy Carl and with the way the Jets played this past Sunday they can beat any team in the NFL. 

You call yourself a Jets fan? 

This has to be DWC.

[nycdan]

3 minutes ago, peebag said:

This has to be DWC.

[68JET11]

8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The odds that the Jets will field Rookie + Petty + Hack next year is near zero, and we all know it.

The Jets WILL have a Veteran QB on the roster next year, like it or not.  It could be McCown, it could be some other vat castoff.  But be assured, it will not be Petty.

The only questions for the Jets at QB is:

A. Which rookie QB do we draft?

B. which Veteran do we sign?

C. Which (between Hack and Petty) do we retain?

 Macc and Bowles have shown they are 100% unwilling to go risky at QB.  

And Petty appears, today, to be the odd man out.

Agree #1

Agree #2 (not opposed to keeping McCown as long as he's not the starter)

A: Good question lol...

B: Second Good question lol...

C: How are we ever supposed to know since he will never play them until it's garbage time and by that time the rest of the team probably starts packing for the holidays....

Don't Agree #3 Macc doesn't choose who plays, only who he drafts... Bowles is the one 110% against ever starting either Petty or Hack.. (real shame).

[greenwave81]

Is see this a lot.  I agree with what you are saying except I would not include Kearse in the category of old vets.  He's 27 and absolutely could be a significant part of the rebuild for the next 5 years or more.

I agree with you about Kearse...didn’t mean to imply he’s ‘old’, just that he was another vet rather than playing one of the DPs...

[August]

39 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Fan Fallacy:  You can only be evaluated and developed by playing in real games.

Reality:  QB's are evaluated and developed without playing on Sunday.  They play every day, through minicamps, camp and preseason, and are evaluated every day, in practice.  Their position coaches and coordinators work to develop them every day in practice, albeit to a lesser degree than the #1.  With us, though, and our veteran and experienced (i.e. old as dirt) #1, it's logical to presume our staff doesn't need to work McCown much, and are in fact working more than normal with Petty and Hack.

We'll see Hack (almost assuredly Hack over Petty, and not because Hack has earned it) the second the Jets are out of contention this season.

I continue to believe Petty is on the outs with the staff, and not in the long term plan of the GM.  Hack, for good or bad, still is.

Neither is mutually exclusive. You can be evaluated and developed in practice AND in live games. Playing live games is invaluable experience for any young player especially a young quarterback. For the 2017 Jets one of the goals is to see what we have in Petty and to a lesser extent Hackenberg (Hackenberg has shown nothing at least Petty has shown a semblance of competency at times) so we know how to go about addressing the position next year. If Petty looks okayish/decent maybe you'll be comfortable enough to roll with him another year to see if he can build on it, while they buy time if they still believe in Hackenberg or they draft another guy and Petty can be the bridge to the next young quarterback. McCown playing is shortsighted. I really thought we learned our lesson from 2 years ago, but I guess not. 

[JohnnyLV]

14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

 Macc and Bowles have shown they are 100% unwilling to go risky at QB.  

And Petty appears, today, to be the odd man out.

I disagree with your first statement. I truly believe that if we had a proper organizational structure and Bowles reported to Mac that Petty or Hack would likely be starting right now.

On statement 2, Bowles does seem to hate Petty for reasons unknown. Possibly because the players like him so much it makes it more difficult for him to start the veteran. If you listened to training camp interviews it was surprising the number that seemed to completely be in the Petty camp. McClown did not seem to be as popular with the players as Petty. 

McClown is starting because of Bowles, period. It says nothing about their ability. And don't fool yourself. Even if we draft a Top level 1st round draft pick, a veteran will start as long as Bowles is HC.

 

 

[#27TheDominator]

I agree with the general theory of starting the young guy, but I think they see these guys every day and from what I have seen in preseason and read about camp, it is quite possible that neither Hackenberg or Petty is capable of running the offense.  They both hold the ball to long and have looked lost out there at times, even in regards to pre-snap alignments.  That doesn't develop young QBs, it buries them.  And everybody else on the roster.  

I don't share the Warfish feeling that the staff has something against Petty.  I think that the change in offense was more difficult for Petty and they expected Hackenberg to be ahead.  That has proven not to be the case and Petty seems to have been ahead from at least preseason week 3 on. 

[Matt39]

5 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I disagree with your first statement. I truly believe that if we had a proper organizational structure and Bowles reported to Mac that Petty or Hack would likely be starting right now.

On statement 2, Bowles does seem to hate Petty for reasons unknown. Possibly because the players like him so much it makes it more difficult for him to start the veteran. If you listened to training camp interviews it was surprising the number that seemed to completely be in the Petty camp. McClown did not seem to be as popular with the players as Petty. 

McClown is starting because of Bowles, period. It says nothing about their ability. And don't fool yourself. Even if we draft a Top level 1st round draft pick, a veteran will start as long as Bowles is HC.

 

 

He's starting because he's the best QB on the roster and both Bowles and Maccagnan have figured out a way to prolong their Jets tenures for as long as possible. Hedging on 2nd and 4th round QB's while signing guys like Fitz and Mccown are just enough to let you keep your job here. 

[56mehl56]

50 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Fan Fallacy:  You can only be evaluated and developed by playing in real games.

Reality:  QB's are evaluated and developed without playing on Sunday.  They play every day, through minicamps, camp and preseason, and are evaluated every day, in practice.  Their position coaches and coordinators work to develop them every day in practice, albeit to a lesser degree than the #1.  With us, though, and our veteran and experienced (i.e. old as dirt) #1, it's logical to presume our staff doesn't need to work McCown much, and are in fact working more than normal with Petty and Hack.

We'll see Hack (almost assuredly Hack over Petty, and not because Hack has earned it) the second the Jets are out of contention this season.

I continue to believe Petty is on the outs with the staff, and not in the long term plan of the GM.  Hack, for good or bad, still is.

Nothing simulates real game action like real game action.  Sure QB's can get reps in practice, camps etc, but no team goes all out blitzes and gameplanning  etc against their own team , it just doesn't happen . And if you want to say but how about PS games .In Ps games teams hardly do any gameplanning on either side of the ball , so while its nice to get live reps and hits against another team a QB cannot be fully evaluated from this action. It can help their cause if they play well, but it still does not paint a true picture.

[RESNewYork]

1 hour ago, 68JET11 said:

Bowles has proven in 3 years he won't start a rookie QB... He has no control over the offense so he seems scared to play one. He has no issues this year with playing the rooks on defense, but still has no balls to play them on offence. So the question should be why is he so dead set against it. I don't believe it has anything to do with who's better then the other because Petty did prove he had a much better grasp of the offense this preseason then he had last year, even with a new OC.

Benching McCown should have never come up as a question because he should never have started the season. Especially since it seems that the HC of the NYJ will keep his job (unfortunately)... Saying that isn't me hoping we can tank for the #1 pick either. When you dismantle the roster as we did this year, then getting the rooks as much playing time is the key to developing and seeing who has game.

Bowles refuses to play a rookie QB and you believe the reason is because he has no control over the offense and is scared? But you don't believe it has anything to do with who is the better QB? 

The job of a coach is to win, especially a coach on the hot seat. You really believe he would start an inferior player, and does not care? 

Your issue should be with Mac. He signed McCown. Bowles is simply starting the QB that gives us the best chance to win.

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

He's starting because he's the best QB on the roster and both Bowles and Maccagnan have figured out a way to prolong their Jets tenures for as long as possible. Hedging on 2nd and 4th round QB's while signing guys like Fitz and Mccown are just enough to let you keep your job here. 

He's starting because he's the safest QB on the roster to stalbilize a foundation and foster confidence.

[Warfish]

Just now, 56mehl56 said:

Nothing simulates real game action like real game action.  Sure QB's can get reps in practice, camps etc, but no team goes all out blitzes and gameplanning  etc against their own team , it just doesn't happen . And if you want to say but how about PS games .In Ps games teams hardly do any gameplanning on either side of the ball , so while its nice to get live reps and hits against another team a QB cannot be fully evaluated from this action. It can help their cause if they play well, but it still does not paint a true picture.

It should tell you something that Petty couldn't beat out a 83 year old QB who came in with a record of 2-1,956.

Perhaps hope in Petty is misplaced hope?

And lets recall, Petty has played in real games, and produced.....nothing, beyond injuries.

[68JET11]

7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

He's starting because he's the best QB on the roster and both Bowles and Maccagnan have figured out a way to prolong their Jets tenures for as long as possible. Hedging on 2nd and 4th round QB's while signing guys like Fitz and Mccown are just enough to let you keep your job here. 

NOT... Second sentence so tru.

[RESNewYork]

51 minutes ago, slats said:

Potentially, it does. They should evaluate him in real game action to determine where they believe he's at. Is he a quality back-up? A serviceable bridge to a rookie? Or is he useless? I don't expect him the be the answer at QB, but they need to know if they need to bring in another McCown type in addition to a rookie (if that's the route they choose to take), or if Petty (or Hack, for that matter) can fill that role.  

Doesnt starting McCown tell you what they believe they have Petty? A QB that is not at that level yet. Because if Petty was at that level, he would logically be starting? 

Isn't it more the fans need to see with their own eyes what Petty is? Not the coaches or management.

And since Petty is not at that level yet, is it not assured they will bring in another QB next year? Either draft or FA or both

[nycdan]

Just now, RESNewYork said:

Doesnt starting McCown tell you what they believe they have Petty? A QB that is not at that level yet. Because if Petty was at that level, he would logically be starting? 

Isn't it more the fans need to see with their own eyes what Petty is? Not the coaches or management.

And since Petty is not at that level yet, is it not assured they will bring in another QB next year? Either draft or FA or both

You are assuming Bowles has command of  logic when most of his in-game decision making proves the opposite.

[56mehl56]

Just now, Warfish said:

It should tell you something that Petty couldn't beat out a 83 year old QB who came in with a record of 2-1,956.

Perhaps hope in Petty is misplaced hope?

And lets recall, Petty has played in real games, and produced.....nothing, beyond injuries.

Petty played in games where the team had checked out for various reasons including the fact that Petty was playing. He may still stink , just like Hack may stilll stink but to say either has had a fair chance is certainly open for debate.

[BrickTamland]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Fan Fallacy:  You can only be evaluated and developed by playing in real games.

Reality:  QB's are evaluated and developed without playing on Sunday.   

Maybe. But compared to real game action, non-game experience might as well be playing madden. And we all know Petty is already good at Madden.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

Petty played in games where the team had checked out for various reasons including the fact that Petty was playing. He may still stink , just like Hack may stilll stink but to say either has had a fair chance is certainly open for debate.

So we're back to "Fair Chance" and "with Weapons".

Sigh.

I'm frustrated too Mehl, but at some point these kids need to show something, regardless of so-called "fair chances" and "weapons".

Endless excuses will not solve the QB problem.

[68JET11]

4 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

Bowles refuses to play a rookie QB and you believe the reason is because he has no control over the offense and is scared? But you don't believe it has anything to do with who is the better QB? 

The job of a coach is to win, especially a coach on the hot seat. You really believe he would start an inferior player, and does not care? 

Your issue should be with Mac. He signed McCown. Bowles is simply starting the QB that gives us the best chance to win.

He's proven he has no control over the offense. He hired an 83 year old OC that was out of football for however long it was. He even stated like Rex, he should attend more offensive meetings. I don't think he really knows how to evaluate the QB position and that he's playing the vets because that's the safe choice. Again, Macc only drafts the players in this management setup. The blame goes on Woody for setting it up that way. The normal progression is to have the HC report to the GM. Since Bowles doesn't have to answer to Macc, he starts who he wants and only Woody or now Chris can fire him.

[RESNewYork]

44 minutes ago, greenwave81 said:

Exactly.

On D, we get rid of older vets and play rooks...and they seem to be developing. On O, we can Fitz, Marshall and Decker and replace them with McCown, Kerley and Kearse...oh, and continue to start another older limited player in Forte. What was the point?

The young player is starting because he's the best player at his position. Not because of his age. Adams and Maye are starting because they are the best players at their position. 

Coaches play the best 11 to win.

It seems more like the issue is with how the roster was put together.

[Integrity28]

Jets fans during off-season:

We need to find and develop our own QB!

Jets fans during the season:

This is awful, we need to find a franchise QB!

Also Jets fans:

How is it a bad thing that we're not giving playing time to the young QBs we drafted?

[RESNewYork]

34 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

There is no harm at all in not starting Petty as long as the following happens.

Next year both Petty and Hack are cut in the off season because if they are not good enough to even be contemplated at this point in time then the team has decided they have no future and if you have no future quit taking up a roster spot.

If the Jets go into camp next year and both hack and petty are still here and the jets have another draft pick and of course we 'must' have a vet mentor then there is a lot of harm in not playing petty or hackenburg.

Players develop year to year

[RESNewYork]

22 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I disagree with your first statement. I truly believe that if we had a proper organizational structure and Bowles reported to Mac that Petty or Hack would likely be starting right now.

On statement 2, Bowles does seem to hate Petty for reasons unknown. Possibly because the players like him so much it makes it more difficult for him to start the veteran. If you listened to training camp interviews it was surprising the number that seemed to completely be in the Petty camp. McClown did not seem to be as popular with the players as Petty. 

McClown is starting because of Bowles, period. It says nothing about their ability. And don't fool yourself. Even if we draft a Top level 1st round draft pick, a veteran will start as long as Bowles is HC.

 

 

Again how does that logically make sense to start the 2nd best player at their position if the coach needs to win, a coach on the hot seat.

And all I hear from the player quotes is them lauding the leadership of McCown, which I assume is beneficial to a young team

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

The young player is starting because he's the best player at his position. Not because of his age. Adams and Maye are starting because they are the best players at their position. 

Coaches play the best 11 to win.

It seems more like the issue is with how the roster was put together.

Because they cut and traded Gilchrist and Pryor.