MDL_JET Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Just now, dbatesman said: Because this front office has shown no interest in or aptitude for drafting that kind of player. So you're saying theres no chance they consider drafting an edge rusher, QB or corner if a good one is available next year? That seems ridiculous to me. But I guess we'll wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnitedWhofans Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: Drafting the way Macc does 3 years in, the door was always closed. Unless he dramatically changes his approach and philosophy, we'll continue to get more of the same: Nice players who will never be great. 6 minutes ago, dbatesman said: Because this front office has shown no interest in or aptitude for drafting that kind of player. I'm trying to figure out what player(s) Mac has deliberately passed that were ranked in the top ten that fit your description. Other than maybe Vic Beasley, whom some people here were concerned about being an Aaron Maybin or a Vernon Gholston (i was here and those names were brought up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Just now, UnitedWhofans said: I'm trying to figure out what player(s) Mac has deliberately passed that were ranked in the top ten that fit your description. Other than maybe Vic Beasley, whom some people here were concerned about being an Aaron Maybin or a Vernon Gholston (i was here and those names were brought up) You seem very concerned with what people here think. If our GM worries about message boards and talking heads, we are ****ed no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnitedWhofans Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: You seem very concerned with what people here think. If our GM worries about message boards and talking heads, we are ****ed no matter what. Data. Pure and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleckineau Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I have been as critical of Lee as much as anyone has here. Yes his play is improved the last few games and I as much as any loyal fan hopes he continues to improve. Lets not get carried away here either. Nobody is confusing him with a Wagner, Kuechly or Lee. Having said that the main source of the negativity towards Lee I think comes more from where and when he was selected due to other obvious needs at the time of that draft and maybe not so much the player that he is or might become. In Lee you have a guy who seems to be improving but unless he becomes an impact player / all-pro will continue to suffer the wrath of fans. For many Lee is the face of a defense built by a HC and GM who continue to draft defense first and yet field a defensive squad that gives up an average of well over 20 points per game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnitedWhofans Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, Kleckineau said: I Having said that the main source of the negativity towards Lee I think comes more from where and when he was selected due to other obvious needs at the time of that draft and maybe not so much the player that he is or might become. In Lee you have a guy who seems to be improving but unless he becomes an impact player / all-pro will continue to suffer the wrath of fans. And that is my problem with the fandom. That is not Darron Lee's fault. So why should he be hated for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleckineau Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said: And that is my problem with the fandom. That is not Darron Lee's fault. So why should he be hated for it? Why concern yourself with how other people support the team?? When this defense that is rich in 1st rounders can average less than 20 points per game and consistently start making big stops and maybe win a game or two creating turnovers the heat will come off guys like Lee and Adams until then along with HC and GM they are fair game for critique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnitedWhofans Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Just now, Kleckineau said: Why concern yourself with how other people support the team?? When this defense that is rich in 1st rounders can average less than 20 points per game and consistently start making big stops and maybe win a game or two creating turnovers the heat will come off guys like Lee and Adams until then along with HC and GM they are fair game for critique The defense is rich in talent, but they are young, save a few players. Consistency is difficult And why do I concern myself? Because it's fair and I believe in fair play as I see fit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 19 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said: I'm trying to figure out what player(s) Mac has deliberately passed that were ranked in the top ten that fit your description. Other than maybe Vic Beasley, whom some people here were concerned about being an Aaron Maybin or a Vernon Gholston (i was here and those names were brought up) Danielle Hunter, Preston Smith for starters. Eli Harold is one that comes to mind that hasn't really worked out, though I would rather have him than Mauldin. 16 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said: Data. Pure and simple. Data? What the **** are you going on about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Just now, UnitedWhofans said: The defense is rich in talent, but they are young, save a few players. Consistency is difficult And why do I concern myself? Because it's fair and I believe in fair play as I see fit EVERY TEAM IN THE NFL IS YOUNG WHEN YOU DEFINE YOUNG AS UNDER 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-Rex Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 On 11/3/2017 at 8:41 AM, Smashmouth said: I was critical of Lee but as of late this kid has really stepped it up in a big way hes making a lot of plays and causing a lot of disruption in the back field his coverage is tight as well. I even saw him shed a guard last night and make a play in the back field. Hes playing much faster and its probably due to him becoming more comfortable in the scheme and buying into it. I too have been critical of Lee, but more how Bowles has used him. He looks good rushing the QB and playing the run lanes. He doesn't have the ability to stay with TE's of Gronkowski's caliber so the Jets need to play more nickel against TE's like him. Kelsey is another guy I don't want Lee matched up with in the pass game. He will make Lee look terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnitedWhofans Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said: Danielle Hunter, Preston Smith for starters. Eli Harold is one that comes to mind that hasn't really worked out, though I would rather have him than Mauldin. Data? What the **** are you going on about? Is that elite talent though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Gotta give Darron Lee some weppinz. A big nose tackle, maybe. A couple pass rushers off the edge. Make sure he’s not blocked and stuff. Really can’t evaluate an inside linebacker until you surround them with high-end talent, actually. Weppinz. W-e-p-p-i-n-z-a-h. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 59 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said: Is that elite talent though? Not sure where you are coming from. How do you define "elite talent?" Size/speed numbers? Production? NFL production? Actually, forget it. No matter which definition you select, yep, that's elite talent. Bonus, they are young too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 1 hour ago, MDL_JET said: So you're saying theres no chance they consider drafting an edge rusher, QB or corner if a good one is available next year? That seems ridiculous to me. But I guess we'll wait and see. No. What I'm saying is that for certain positions (pass-rusher in particular, but also corner, to a lesser extent), there are established benchmarks of athletic ability that predict, with a high degree of accuracy, which prospects are likely to succeed in the league and which aren't. Thus far, Maccagnan has completely ignored those benchmarks and taken sloths like Mauldin and Burris, with predictable results. So really what I'm saying is that I'm quite certain we'll draft an edge guy or corner if they're available, but I'm equally certain that that guy won't have the athletic chops to play at a high level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradis Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 3 hours ago, kdels62 said: Beachum has been okay and we can role with him next year, but center has to be addressed. Beachum was our highest rated o-linemen going into yesterday and though he can be upgraded he can also hold down the fort for 2 years. I completely disagree with the wide receivers. All those great receivers and what exactly have they won for their teams? WR1 are great assets but hardly cornerstones and if there is one position that Macc seems to understand its WR. He seems to value the position appropriately and knows what makes a wide receiver reliable. Dont' try to pretend, that in a pass happy sport, where points win championships... that getting STUDs at WR isn't as valid a priority as virtually any position not named QB. Playmakers at skill positions are what win you those close games. That pick up your QB on down day. That catch those 4th & 13 balls in the 4th quarter. A team with no WRs is going nowhere. Absolutely nowhere.... (don't even fcking talk about NE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdels62 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 10 minutes ago, Paradis said: Dont' try to pretend, that in a pass happy sport, where points win championships... that getting STUDs at WR isn't as valid a priority as virtually any position not named QB. Playmakers at skill positions are what win you those close games. That pick up your QB on down day. That catch those 4th & 13 balls in the 4th quarter. A team with no WRs is going nowhere. Absolutely nowhere.... (don't even fcking talk about NE) I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that number 1 wide receivers shouldn’t be in the same discussion not prioritized like LTs, centers, QBs, or Edge rushers. Also putting together a strong complementary WR corp is better than just having 1 stud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradis Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, kdels62 said: I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that number 1 wide receivers shouldn’t be in the same discussion not prioritized like LTs, centers, QBs, or Edge rushers. Also putting together a strong complementary WR corp is better than just having 1 stud Is that like a Chinese buffet, you'll just pick ones that are "not bad"?... Disagree with you completely. Yes, you could argue (gently) that if you're building from scratch, that once you have a QB, you go LT next, etc... but real life doesn't work like that, or we'd have drafted a QB at the top of 1 for the last 40 years running... Taking a lid-lifting, dominating WR has right to be in the conversation the top half of round 1, no matter what positions we're deficient at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdels62 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, Paradis said: Is that like a Chinese buffet, you'll just pick ones that are "not bad"?... Disagree with you completely. Yes, you could argue (gently) that if you're building from scratch, that once you have a QB, you go LT next, etc... but real life doesn't work like that, or we'd have drafted a QB at the top of 1 for the last 40 years running... Taking a lid-lifting, dominating WR has right to be in the conversation the top half of round 1, no matter what positions we're deficient at. If a WR is the BAP then sure. But look at Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin, Julio Jones (before Alex Mack), AJ Green or Amari Cooper, all are exceptional talents but they don’t make or break seasons. A wr unit is more important, and right now we have sure-handed, specific role players that have allowed our bad journeyman qb to be a little bit more than that. Surprisingly, Macc has proven to understand how to build WR corps (2015 we had the best in the league) and it’s one of the places where you can defer to the opinion of the expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 6 hours ago, Ex-Rex said: I too have been critical of Lee, but more how Bowles has used him. He looks good rushing the QB and playing the run lanes. He doesn't have the ability to stay with TE's of Gronkowski's caliber so the Jets need to play more nickel against TE's like him. Kelsey is another guy I don't want Lee matched up with in the pass game. He will make Lee look terrible. fwiw no one has been able to stop Gronk so theres that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 On 11/3/2017 at 1:49 PM, Smashmouth said: Not Kevin Greene ? I think I would lean toward Greene Greene is not his position coach. Greene is the OLB coach. Caldwell is the ILB position coach, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradis Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 4 hours ago, kdels62 said: If a WR is the BAP then sure. But look at Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin, Julio Jones (before Alex Mack), AJ Green or Amari Cooper, all are exceptional talents but they don’t make or break seasons. A wr unit is more important, and right now we have sure-handed, specific role players that have allowed our bad journeyman qb to be a little bit more than that. Surprisingly, Macc has proven to understand how to build WR corps (2015 we had the best in the league) and it’s one of the places where you can defer to the opinion of the expert. I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think you're generalizing too liberally. The only position anyone can make correlations to between player and championships - is of course Quarterback. Everything else is open to interpretation. Some teams had great secondaries, some had great running games, some had prolific receivers. Peyton Manning is the reasons the Colts eventually won a superbowl. But year in, year out, winning their division, playoffs, etc etc. He needed to have somethings fall his way. Whether it was Wayne/Harrison going off, James, defense (freeney/mathis?).. etc etc. If you don't have talent at those positions, you don't win those games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 On 11/3/2017 at 9:53 PM, Beerfish said: As I said before Lees impact is totally dependant on two things, 1) Our Dline actually playing well and not loafing thus keeping him clean. 2) Other teams not scheming to run at him and or go after him with a TE or Rb. Buffalo with Clay is a lot different for Lee than is Buffalo sans Clay. Still, he played a good game. We can't' change where he was drafted. No one in their right mind would ever say he was worth a mid 1st round pick, but at least he's been playing like he finally belongs in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigO Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 On 11/3/2017 at 9:25 AM, UnitedWhofans said: Further to Lee's developement: He has 3 sacks in his career- 2 of them this year He has 9 stuffed tackles in his career- 6 of them this year He's forced 2 fumbles this year as opposed to none last year Not exactly jaw dropping for a 1st round pick but when compared to other legendary picks like Vernon Gholston, Lee is like little Dickie Butkus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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